Undertale - Vulkins Lightning

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

It has come to my attention that when Vulkin summons the cloud (to shoot projectiles at you) it's clearly shown to be giving out a smile, due to the magical nature of magic in general in this series and the cloud itself clearly showing itself to be non natural. Can we really believe that the lightning it also shoots out is to be trusted as a legitimate showing of CTG lightning?

There may be a few things that may prove the lightning to be legitimate despite the cloud not appearing to be. Such as a statement telling us it it goes at lightning speed or something of that nature. Because right now the legitimacy of this lightning bolt is on very thin ice.

My proposal is that the MHS+ calculation is not to be used, and all characters who used it should have their speed replaced to "Unknown" and changed to something else after we can get more foolproof calculations/feats

 

[Verivici]

Supported, although I think there's a possibility of it being natural lightning.

However, we shouldn't make assumptions.

 

[RexdeDino]

I mean, I've noticed it before, and I have to say this - if Vulkin's lighting is natural lightning, then why does it move slower than the actual lightning Asriel posseses after absorbing every SOUL in the underground? It always bothered me.

 

[Thebluedash]

I mean, I've noticed it before, and I have to say this - if Vulkin's lighting is natural lightning, then why does it move slower than the actual lightning Asriel posseses after absorbing every SOUL in the underground? It always bothered me.

It's just how Toby Fox decided to do his lightnings.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

That's not really a valid excuse though. Are we going to say that lightning is faster than regular lightning? Agreeing with Austrian here

 

[Thebluedash]

That's not really a valid excuse though. Are we going to say that lightning is faster than regular lightning? Agreeing with Austrian here

I'm not giving an excuse ? I was replying to the dude's question. I could care less about Undertale. I don't even know the context. Just saying if the speed is off, that's cause of the creator.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

At least did you even think that Asriel's attacks are lightspeed?

That's why they are so fast

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

At least did you even think that Asriel's attacks are lightspeed?

That's why they are so fast

Considering that Asriel's immesurable...yeah.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I support this, the evidence showcased here has my support that some UT characters are not MHS and should find a better feat.

 

[Verivici]

4 for. Any against?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Well, at least we have to think about.... the fact that the AP of nearly are scale from Tsunderplane feat with lightning speed

 

[Verivici]

We would still have Undyne's speed feat tho

So it would probably be around Tier 8, which is probably more in line with Toby's intents

 

[SomebodyData]

kinda getting off topic here guys

I agree, had we used everything that was considered lightning in fiction as actual lightning, then we would have had MHS Avatar

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Undyne speed feat?

 

[Verivici]

She ran from Waterfall to Snowdin in seconds

EDIT: Using it for TP would be calc stacking

 

[Verivici]

bump bump

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Vulkin is based on a volcano, which create pyrocumulus clouds. Pyrocumulus clouds produce lightning. Vulkin itself creates pyrocumulus clouds which fire lightning. The intent very clearly seems to be that Vulkin is creating clouds which fire lightning. The sprite smiling is not enough to completely invalidate it, especially since other characters, such as Mettaton, attack using bolts of electricity almost immediately after this point. I've already pointed out why stuff such as the "it's magic" arguments don't hold water.

Not supported.

 

[Promestein]

^

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Going with Azzy, not supported

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm with Azzy. For example, we don't not count (I'm aware of the double-negative) Lakitu's Lightning due to a smiling cloud.

 

[Verivici]

Vulkin is based on a volcano, which create pyrocumulus clouds. Pyrocumulus clouds produce lightning. Vulkin itself creates pyrocumulus clouds which fire lightning. The intent very clearly seems to be that Vulkin is creating clouds which fire lightning. The sprite smiling is not enough to completely invalidate it, especially since other characters, such as Mettaton, attack using bolts of electricity almost immediately after this point. I've already pointed out why stuff such as the "it's magic" arguments don't hold water.
Not supported.

Since when did pyrocumulus clouds smile?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Since when did pyrocumulus clouds smile?

Literally just covered this in the above comment.

If everything besides a smiley-face pattern (which is in-line with Vulkin's character) points to it being a pyrocumulus cloud, then it's almost certainly a pyrocumulus cloud and not something else.

 

[Verivici]

So, a net amount of 1 for.

EDIT: Actually 0, since I'm not sure which side of the fence I stand tbth

 

[Promestein]

Content revisions don't really work by voting you know

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Pyrocumulus clouds are not able to smile I am afraid, also the lightning being shot out is akin to that of being shot out the cloud like bullets in a machine gun fly out. And this is not how lightning is presented at all irl or in other forms of fiction where we do accept CTG

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Technically, yes, a pyrocumulus cloud could have a smiling pattern, especially if the thing forming said cloud was an overly happy sapient volcano. The lightning being fired like "bullets" is pretty clearly just a stylistic way of representing lightning on an incredibly simple 2-D plane. Pretty much nothing in Undertale looks realistic for style purposes, but that doesn't mean we should discount literally everything.

 

[Verivici]

So Vulkin is a stylized volcano, so stylized that it can carry hot dogs in its crown without them burning up. Is there evidence that the bolts themselves aren't just stylized unnatural bolts?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Vulkin is not a stylized volcano. It is a monster based off of a volcano, though I see no reason a monster based off a volcano, which replicates a things actual volcanoes do as an attack, should not be treated as performing the same process. Especially when said volcano monster also launches actual magma and is said to burn you when you touch it.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I don't think trying to claim that the smiles in the cloud were coincidence is a very good idea, seeing how low the chances are of a pyrocumulus cloud being able to project something such as this.

Lightning which comes out of a smiling cloud, shoots multiple bolts which cover a 360 degree angle and fires them out at rapid speed is dangerously close to being subjected as magical lightning rather than actual legitimate cloud to ground lightning.

Trying to cast these inconsistencies aside as just "stylistic way of representing lightning on an incredibly simple 2d plane" is not really enough to justify how blatently different these lightning bolts are from natural lightning.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't think trying to claim that the smiles in the cloud were coincidence is a very good idea, seeing how low the chances are of a pyrocumulus cloud being able to project something such as this.
Lightning which comes out of a smiling cloud, shoots multiple bolts which cover a 360 degree angle and fires them out at rapid speed is dangerously close to being subjected as magical lightning rather than actual legitimate cloud to ground lightning.

Trying to cast these inconsistencies aside as just "stylistic way of representing lightning on an incredibly simple 2d plane" is not really enough to justify how blatently different these lightning bolts are from natural lightning.

I never said they were coincidence. I said they were on purpose. Vulkin wants everything to be happy. Why would it not make its clouds have happy face patterns on them?

The lightning does not even come close to firing at a 360 degree angle. Watch the gif, again.

It's not inconsistency. At all. It's just you assuming something that's clearly supposed to be lightning isn't lightning because "magic".

Look at Mettaton. When you first encounter him in the quiz show and get a wrong answer, he hits you with a bolt of electricity. Later, during the actual battle with Mettaton EX, he also fires bolts of electricity as attacks, though this time they are more similar in appearance to Vulkin's. So what seems like the more likely option here? That Mettaton lost the ability to shoot actual electiricty and is now just firing "magic bullets", or that because you're now in an actual battle, him firing electricity is now just represented in a more stylistic manner which can more easily stack with other attacks and projectiles on screen?

 

[Verivici]

Everything in undertale tends to be a cartoonish facsimile of the real thing, like tiny Tsunderplane and Vulkin being able to hold a hot dog in its crown without the lava burning it up. Is there any evidence that the lightning IS natural lightning? No and assuming it definitely absolutely is (I think it is a possibility, but not certain) is fallacious

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Everything in undertale tends to be a cartoonish facsimile of the real thing, like tiny Tsunderplane and Vulkin being able to hold a hot dog in its crown without the lava burning it up. Is there any evidence that the lightning IS natural lightning? No and assuming it definitely absolutely is (I think it is a possibility, but not certain) is fallacious

No one is assuming it definitely absolutely is. People are saying it's lightning because everything about the attack and how it's created points to it being lightning. I've also already pointed out that Vulkin does burn things and have real magma. You are using a static overworld sprite to assume that it doesn't despite text and battle saying otherwise.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I feel like the entire "bullet" misunderstanding is coming from one line of dialogue Flowey says at the beginning of the game. If Frisk keeps dodging his attacks, he slips up and says, "RUN. INTO. THE. BULLETS!". Because of this, people assume every single attack in the game is just a "magical bullet". However, this completely ignores the fact that Flowey says this because the attack he's trying to kill you with what is literally a hail of bullets. At no other point does anyone refer to non-bullet attacks as "bullets".

When Undyne throws spears at you, she clearly refers to them as spears.

When Vulkin hurls magma at you, it very clearly refers to it as magma.

When Napstablook attacks you, he's very clearly actually crying.

When Shyren attacks you, she's very clearly actually singing.

When Muffet says she's going to feed you to her pet, a giant spider cupcake monster thing very clearly appears and tries to eat you.

None of these are "bullets".

No non-bullet attacks were ever meant to be "bullets".

The time in which a character was firing bullets at you...those were meant to be bullets. Which is why they were called "bullets" in the first place.

 

[Aparajita]

No one is assuming it definitely absolutely is. People are saying it's lightning because everything about the attack and how it's created points to it being lightning. I've also already pointed out that Vulkin does burn things and have real magma. You are using a static overworld sprite to assume that it doesn't despite text and battle saying otherwise.

Then why is Avatar Lightning not lightning, despite text and character statements saying that it is?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Then why is Avatar Lightning not lightning, despite text and character statements saying that it is?

I thought avatar lightning was lightning? Iroh's subsonic feat is calced under the assumption of actual cloud to ocean lightning, isn't it?

 

[Aparajita]

I thought avatar lightning was lightning? Iroh's subsonic feat is calced under the assumption of actual cloud to ocean lightning, isn't it?

Avatar lightning bending is described literally the same way NASA describes lightning and it's debunked as being "not lightning" because magic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because the summoned lightning didn't come from a cloud. When Iroh and Zuko trained to deflect true lightning, that was a feat, but for example, Azula creating lightning to harm Katara and Zuko blocking, then that's relatively unquantifiable.

 

[Aparajita]

Because the summoned lightning didn't come from a cloud. When Iroh and Zuko trained to deflect true lightning, that was a feat, but for example, Azula creating lightning to harm Katara and Zuko blocking, then that's relatively unquantifiable.

Did Vulcan's lightning come from a natural non-magical cloud?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

^See Lakitu comment.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Did Vulcan's lightning come from a natural non-magical cloud?

Literally everything in Undertale is magical (everything in the Underground, at least), but magic is treated as part of science (i.e. the science of creating robots is described as merging metal and magic).

However, yes, Vulkin's lightning comes from a pyrocumulus cloud.