Undertale Top and God tier downgrade(?)

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Pretty sure everyone else has already stated why "World=/=timeline", even if you only look at the Asriel battle and nothing else.

 

[Juggerton]

Pretty sure everyone else has already stated why "World=/=timeline", even if you only look at the Asriel battle and nothing else.

K


Should this thread be closed?

 

[Random1201]

Tbh just because some Game Stats are intentionally jokish doesn't mean that all Stats are wrong.

 

[Juggerton]

Tbh just because some Game Stats are intentionally jokish doesn't mean that all Stats are wrong.

The Glyde one revealed that the STATs are actually the Monsters bluffing

 

[Juggerton]

Tbh just because some Game Stats are intentionally jokish doesn't mean that all Stats are wrong.

The others except for Almagamates are just meh

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Glyde one revealed that the STATs are actually the Monsters bluffing

No, they aren't. Not at all. Monster Kid isn't saying "looks like free EXP" about itself.

That's never been the point, though. The point has been that, like something such as power levels, STATs are not exact. They are simply a marker of "this character is approximately X amount stronger than this other character". The point is how even when compared to other Tier 2 entities in the setting, Asriel is perceived as "infinite", showing just how absurd that degree of separation is.

 

[Juggerton]

The Glyde one revealed that the STATs are actually the Monsters bluffing

No, they aren't. Not at all. Monster Kid isn't saying "looks like free EXP" about itself.
That's never been the point, though. The point has been that, like something such as power levels, STATs are not exact. They are simply a marker of "this character is approximately X amount stronger than this other character". The point is how even when compared to other Tier 2 entities in the setting, Asriel is perceived as "infinite", showing just how absurd that degree of separation is.

That was Chara saying it iirc.Other example included Swipe that smile off his face.


If the CHECK STATs are accurate, shouldn't Frisk be having power identification?Either way, CHECK stats just dont seem to be making any sense for me..

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Chara saying it would mean Chara is the one always CHECKing STATs (which is actually one of the most prominent theories, iirc). That makes a lot more sense than Frisk doing so, all things considered.

Glyde is a joke monster, and is explicitly so due to its nature as one of the Kickstarter secret bosses. It even says "Refuses to give more details about its statistics", despite the fact in no other case does the monster you're fighting actually give you its statistics. That's part of the joke.

Amalgamates are, on the other hand, something that is unnatural. They are fusions of monster SOULs and DETERMINATION that should not be, putting them in a constant state of change. The fact their STATs are unable to be identified is part of their nature.

Pretty much nothing else breaks that mold.

 

[Juggerton]

Chara saying it would mean Chara is the one always CHECKing STATs (which is actually one of the most prominent theories, iirc). That makes a lot more sense than Frisk doing so, all things considered.
Glyde is a joke monster, and is explicitly so due to its nature as one of the Kickstarter secret bosses. It even says "Refuses to give more details about its statistics", despite the fact in no other case does the monster you're fighting actually give you its statistics. That's part of the joke.

Amalgamates are, on the other hand, something that is unnatural. They are fusions of monster SOULs and DETERMINATION that should not be, putting them in a constant state of change. The fact their STATs are unable to be identified is part of their nature.

Pretty much nothing else breaks that mold.

Ofc,Glyde is a joke monster .He jokes about Check Stats not being really reliable.Since iirc Frisk doesn't have power identification and the game registered itself as real life(kinda),who is telling all those Stats?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ofc,Glyde is a joke monster .He jokes about Check Stats not being really reliable.Since iirc Frisk doesn't have power identification and the game registered itself as real life(kinda),who is telling all those Stats?

The joke is that check STATs aren't reliable despite the fact that in every instance, sans the group of unnatural beings where it's supposed to be unreliable, it's reliable?

Either an omniscient narrator or Chara. Second is more likely. Both options are reliable sources, especially given what Chara knows, and the fact they basically function as an omniscient narrator in the genocide run, anyway.

 

[Juggerton]

Ofc,Glyde is a joke monster .He jokes about Check Stats not being really reliable.Since iirc Frisk doesn't have power identification and the game registered itself as real life(kinda),who is telling all those Stats?

The joke is that check STATs aren't reliable despite the fact that in every instance, sans the group of unnatural beings where it's supposed to be unreliable, it's reliable?
Either an omniscient narrator or Chara. Second is more likely. Both options are reliable sources, especially given what Chara knows, and the fact they basically function as an omniscient narrator in the genocide run, anyway.

That's for the Genocide runs at least.But still,could Chara know the Monsters?It's been stated that after both Chara and Asriel death,Toriel and Asgore divorce.Before Flowey turns into Asriel,they had some chat but most of them don't even know Toriel at first(except for Sans but they didn't actually meet each other face to face before).That pretty much disregard Chara being the omniscient being because she died before Toriel and Asgore's divorce.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Before Flowey turns into Asriel,they had some chat but most of them don't even know Toriel at first(except for Sans but they didn't actually meet each other face to face before)."

You mean because Toriel locked herself away in the Ruins? How does that relate to Chara?

"That pretty much disregard Chara being the omniscient being because she died before Toriel and Asgore's divorce."

Except for the fact that Chara, who is ever present throughout the game, is also there when Toriel finds Frisk. This also has literally nothing to do with Chara being familiar with creatures from the Underground, nor the fact they become an abstract embodiment related to the very thing they help analyze.

 

[Juggerton]

"Before Flowey turns into Asriel,they had some chat but most of them don't even know Toriel at first(except for Sans but they didn't actually meet each other face to face before)."
You mean because Toriel locked herself away in the Ruins? How does that relate to Chara?

"That pretty much disregard Chara being the omniscient being because she died before Toriel and Asgore's divorce."

Except for the fact that Chara, who is ever present throughout the game, is also there when Toriel finds Frisk. This also has literally nothing to do with Chara being familiar with creatures from the Underground, nor the fact they become an abstract embodiment related to the very thing they help analyze.

Toriel left Asgore after Asgore declared war on humanity(after Chara and Asriel's death).Meaning that most Ut characters don't know her well enough


She stated that she was awakened by Frisk's Determination during the Genocide ending.Meaning that before Frisk's arrival,she was dead for good.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Toriel left Asgore after Asgore declared war on humanity(after Chara and Asriel's death).Meaning that most Ut characters don't know her well enough"

...How does this relate in any way to a character who is actually their adopted child?

"She stated that she was awakened by Frisk's Determination during the Genocide ending.Meaning that before Frisk's arrival,she was dead for good."

The entire game takes place post-Frisk's arrival, though. So that is entirely irrelevant to the statement "Chara is ever present throughout the game".

 

[Juggerton]

"Toriel left Asgore after Asgore declared war on humanity(after Chara and Asriel's death).Meaning that most Ut characters don't know her well enough"
...How does this relate in any way to a character who is actually their adopted child?

"She stated that she was awakened by Frisk's Determination during the Genocide ending.Meaning that before Frisk's arrival,she was dead for good."

The entire game takes place post-Frisk's arrival, though. So that is entirely irrelevant to the statement "Chara is ever present throughout the game".

I meant that Chara won't be knowing most of the Ut characters (or be the narrator)because the former ones were dead.


I meant pre-Frisk's arrival,she was dead so she can't possibly know most of the Ut to become the narrator

 

[GPeckman]

-snip-

I think that whether Chara knew the characters personally is irrelevant. She didn't know their stats because she knew the characters personally, (Papyrus and Undyne are implied to have never seen a human before Frisk) but because she is the incarnation of those stats..

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There is one thing I'm curious about, with what Azzy said. He said that STATs are all about perception (personally, considering we're getting rid of stat scaling altogether for many verses, this being different for a comparison to power levels seems weird, but I digress), and Asriel's stats are perceived as infinite by a tier 2 being. But that doesn't mean it actually is infinite, as none of them are even close to omniscient. Closest one who is is the one being analyzed. I mean, if I see someone as infinite power, they're not gonna be High 3-A, because I don't have a scope of actual destruction above nuke level in real life.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But that doesn't mean it actually is infinite, as none of them are even close to omniscient.

Chara is the representation of "Stats", and is likely the one giving you info on Asriel.

There's also the issue that you can still conceptualize "infinity", which at worst for a human would be "capable of destroying the universe". You would not view someone who has the power to destroy galaxies as having literally infinite power. Just power far beyond yourself.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You're looking at it as a VBW standpoint. The people behind the computer in our case would view a galaxy buster as infinite, as we don't know his highest capabilities, and we don't have anything to test it as. And Chara isn't omnipotent either. Take your DBZ example. Scouters break when enough power is given.

Of course, I'm probably wrong.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm faaaaairly certain philosophers, writers, scientists, mathematicians, and a whole host of other people conceptualized and thought about the nature of "infinity" long before we did. Even then, most people would think of it as "can produce energy infinitely" as opposed to "we don't know how strong it is".

The difference between Chara and scouters is that one is a man(alien?)-made device that was never meant for use of anything whose power was upper-end Frieza Saga levels and beyond, and the other is an abstract multiversal constant whose expertise is the thing being analyzed as infinite.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

This thread is still running?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, but if said philosophers ran into a guy claiming to be god and see him destroying planets and galaxies and such, they're probably gonna believe him. But yeah, that's what I mean. Most people would think this guy has no limit and can produce energy infinitely.

Chara has never been portrayed as absolute though, until he becomes absolute.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Chara has never been portrayed as absolute though, until he becomes absolute.

This is post-absolute Chara. None of this changes after the genocide ending.

 

[GPeckman]

Isn't Asriel also 2-A because of power scaling from omega flowey?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

He 2-A because Flowey and Chara have finite stats while he have infinite

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Asriel's 2-A requires other Tier 2 characters to scale from, yes. Funny enough, he probably has the worst feats of Chara, OF, and himself despite canonically being the strongest.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

His best feat at his first form is Low 2-C

 

[Juggerton]

Asriel's 2-A requires other Tier 2 characters to scale from, yes. Funny enough, he probably has the worst feats of Chara, OF, and himself despite canonically being the strongest.

What?I thought the worst feat was from OF...


He destroyed nothing

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Asriel and Flowey both just scale to Chara really , which is why they are so powerful.

 

[Juggerton]

Chara has never been portrayed as absolute though, until he becomes absolute.

This is post-absolute Chara. None of this changes after the genocide ending.

I messed up the tiering in the title.


It should be:The God tiers(except for Annoying dog) At least Low 2-C, possibly Higher

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Well Omega Flowey did the same game breaking feat that Chara did as soon as he absorbed the 7 souls so at least that's something.

 

[Antvasima]

So, has everything been properly answered and resolved here, or are there still issues to discuss?

 

[Juggerton]

So, has everything been properly answered and resolved here, or are there still issues to discuss?

Yea.I guess..

 

[Juggerton]

Well Omega Flowey did the same game breaking feat that Chara did as soon as he absorbed the 7 souls so at least that's something.

He just overpowered your Dt.Making it no longer a game where you can reset,load and Save


That's game breaking but Frisk was able to walk to the end,receiving the Monsters' farewell message

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I will wait for Azathoth. If he thinks that the thread should be closed, I will do so.

 

[Juggerton]

Well, I will wait for Azathoth. If he thinks that the thread should be closed, I will do so.

Ant,is there a "two" tiers for vague stuff?


For example,Chara is stated to be able to destroy the World whereas the World could mean either Universe or Multiverse.Shouldnt this be anywhere from Low 2-C to 2-B?(something like this:Low 2-C | 2B)

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know what would be appropriate in this case. Sorry.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

For example,Chara is stated to be able to destroy the World whereas the World could mean either Universe or Multiverse.Shouldnt this be anywhere from Low 2-C to 2-B?(something like this:Low 2-C | 2B)

Again this?

The god tiers aren't multiversal because "The world" can be a mutiverse or a universe but because they destroy everything in existance and the results are far higher than a timeline getting destroyed

Like compare Chara destroying feat with Asriel destroying a timeline or Asriel destroying "The World" to his previous timeline burst

He just overpowered your Dt.Making it no longer a game where you can reset,load and Save That's game breaking but Frisk was able to walk to the end,receiving the Monsters' farewell message

"Crash / Reset the game" includes deleting the "world" because it does not start all over again and do it all over again. There's nothing there when you try to re-enter the game after the Flowey Omega takes over. Just his SAVE, which he immediately destroys just to mess with you. In fact, since his plan is to kill Frisk forever as well as torture everyone, he can almost certainly bring back reality, as it is also brought back to the Human ALMAs when he is defeated.

 

[GPeckman]

Sans mentioned a lot of timelines getting destroyed in genocide, so its multiversal.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

But he also mention that Chara will need time to destroy all of them