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@Azzy What are your opinions on save files not being treated as entire timelines?
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Undertale god tier revision
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Azzathoth Also what do you think about annoying dogs tier?
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After reading through of what the OP mentioned, here is what I think about it so far and hopefully this will answer your important claims you may need to know:
@Read this post
1. Save Files are basically forms of information (which I'm assuming that you already know this ofc since its in the definition of it according to Wikipedia) which stores things like timelines, alternate histories/endings, possibilities and etc. since they are forms of information too. However, Save Files are not to be confused to timelines due to them being 2 different things actually. Anyways, destroying Save Files will destroy everything contained inside it (the things I listed earlier) than just only the timelines inside them. Photoshop Flowey uses his ability to "SAVE" to reshape the world itself (another way of saying timeline but you get the point).
2. Chara is equal to the Anomaly (who created and gave them their destructive power in the first place) which Photoshop Flowey is superior against due to overpowering their Determination & Save File when using the power of the six human SOULs of course. Also, Photoshop Flowey was able to affect the entire game (another way of saying the multiverse itself but that's beside the point) in his fight against them, so changing his tier wouldn't be really necessary.
Lastly, Asriel's surpasses all 3 characters for blatant reasons and Asriel shouldn't be considered on the same equal footing as Chara regardless anyways since Photoshop Flowey is already considered superior them and the Anomaly.
@Read this post
1. Save Files are basically forms of information (which I'm assuming that you already know this ofc since its in the definition of it according to Wikipedia) which stores things like timelines, alternate histories/endings, possibilities and etc. since they are forms of information too. However, Save Files are not to be confused to timelines due to them being 2 different things actually. Anyways, destroying Save Files will destroy everything contained inside it (the things I listed earlier) than just only the timelines inside them. Photoshop Flowey uses his ability to "SAVE" to reshape the world itself (another way of saying timeline but you get the point).
2. Chara is equal to the Anomaly (who created and gave them their destructive power in the first place) which Photoshop Flowey is superior against due to overpowering their Determination & Save File when using the power of the six human SOULs of course. Also, Photoshop Flowey was able to affect the entire game (another way of saying the multiverse itself but that's beside the point) in his fight against them, so changing his tier wouldn't be really necessary.
Lastly, Asriel's surpasses all 3 characters for blatant reasons and Asriel shouldn't be considered on the same equal footing as Chara regardless anyways since Photoshop Flowey is already considered superior them and the Anomaly.
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Save Files are merely a point in time that you can return to. There is no reason to assume they contain the "information" of anything beyond that. You overwrite them as an everyday ocurance and you destroyed floweys by virtue of being more determinated.
Since when does he use his power to save to change the world? He only ever used it to save a point and go back there to adjust his aim or kill you if needed.
Flowey never overpowered the anomaly. He overpowered frisk. And Chara clearly states that their reach their very peak of power in genocide, which puts it at at least equal to the pacifist ending soul. The one that can stalemate Asriel in raw DT, making him unable to reset.
He is stronger, but Pacifist frisk's soul is on his level on DT, that isn't debatable.
Since when does he use his power to save to change the world? He only ever used it to save a point and go back there to adjust his aim or kill you if needed.
Flowey never overpowered the anomaly. He overpowered frisk. And Chara clearly states that their reach their very peak of power in genocide, which puts it at at least equal to the pacifist ending soul. The one that can stalemate Asriel in raw DT, making him unable to reset.
He is stronger, but Pacifist frisk's soul is on his level on DT, that isn't debatable.
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Magi hussie
Isnt that an appeal to definitio and association fallacy? Either way. Save files do not physically contain the information of those entire timelines. They are just ways of accessing certain points in those timelines. And a point you can return to. If each save file were to contain all of the information and history of that timeline then realistically, you would be able to go to any point in those timelines as you pleased and skip to any point in time and view that timelines ending right away. But you cant. You can only go to a certain point and get an ending from there.
Flowey never did anything the anomaly. He just tampered with the gameplay mechanics, which is something even asgore can do. It is only an ability used on frisk. Not directly on the player. chara was actually able to take the players soul and destroy and recreate the game as a whole. Utilising gameplay mechanics and save files =/= affecting the entire reality of the game or matching the anomaly.
Photoshop flowey has never shown superior to either chara or the anomaly. Asriel at best is only slightly stronger than chara.
Isnt that an appeal to definitio and association fallacy? Either way. Save files do not physically contain the information of those entire timelines. They are just ways of accessing certain points in those timelines. And a point you can return to. If each save file were to contain all of the information and history of that timeline then realistically, you would be able to go to any point in those timelines as you pleased and skip to any point in time and view that timelines ending right away. But you cant. You can only go to a certain point and get an ending from there.
Flowey never did anything the anomaly. He just tampered with the gameplay mechanics, which is something even asgore can do. It is only an ability used on frisk. Not directly on the player. chara was actually able to take the players soul and destroy and recreate the game as a whole. Utilising gameplay mechanics and save files =/= affecting the entire reality of the game or matching the anomaly.
Photoshop flowey has never shown superior to either chara or the anomaly. Asriel at best is only slightly stronger than chara.
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@Ricsi
"Save Files are merely a point in time that you can return to. There is no reason to assume they contain the "information" of anything beyond that. You overwrite them as an everyday ocurance and you destroyed floweys by virtue of being more determinated."
The first thing you are describing is a save point, not a Save File my guy (not to mention that a save file and a save point are actually 2 different things despite contrary of belief): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savepoint
If you meant any information beyond the game, then no, we can't assume that. The original timeline will still be the same after saving at a save point (a point of time) until you reach certain points of the game that will cause alternations of the original timeline and creates a new one depending on what specific actions you selected.
"Since when does he use his power to save to change the world? He only ever used it to save a point and go back there to adjust his aim or kill you if needed"
I mean, it's not like Photoshop Flowey just did this when creating his world after messing with the coding of the game (if you leave the Undertale windowscreen minimized when Flowey starts absorbing the 6 human souls & the corrupted intro of the game shows up) or anything.
"Flowey never overpowered the anomaly. He overpowered frisk. And Chara clearly states that their reach their very peak of power in genocide, which puts it at at least equal to the pacifist ending soul. The one that can stalemate Asriel in raw DT, making him unable to reset."
Photoshop Flowey overpowered their Save File and physically destroyed it & so as their Determination. Not to mention that Photoshop Flowey has control over 6 Save Files while the Anomaly has control over one (there is a huge power difference between them).
"He is stronger, but Pacifist frisk's soul is on his level on DT, that isn't debatable."
>Sees Frisk constantly dying to Photoshop Flowey without using DT to naturally self-resurrect as he did with Asriel
>Forgets the fact that the only way Photoshop Flowey could overpower Frisk's ability to SAVE was to overpower their DT (which Flowey explicitly explained why couldn't use the ability to "SAVE" anymore because of that)
"Save Files are merely a point in time that you can return to. There is no reason to assume they contain the "information" of anything beyond that. You overwrite them as an everyday ocurance and you destroyed floweys by virtue of being more determinated."
The first thing you are describing is a save point, not a Save File my guy (not to mention that a save file and a save point are actually 2 different things despite contrary of belief): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savepoint
If you meant any information beyond the game, then no, we can't assume that. The original timeline will still be the same after saving at a save point (a point of time) until you reach certain points of the game that will cause alternations of the original timeline and creates a new one depending on what specific actions you selected.
"Since when does he use his power to save to change the world? He only ever used it to save a point and go back there to adjust his aim or kill you if needed"
I mean, it's not like Photoshop Flowey just did this when creating his world after messing with the coding of the game (if you leave the Undertale windowscreen minimized when Flowey starts absorbing the 6 human souls & the corrupted intro of the game shows up) or anything.
"Flowey never overpowered the anomaly. He overpowered frisk. And Chara clearly states that their reach their very peak of power in genocide, which puts it at at least equal to the pacifist ending soul. The one that can stalemate Asriel in raw DT, making him unable to reset."
Photoshop Flowey overpowered their Save File and physically destroyed it & so as their Determination. Not to mention that Photoshop Flowey has control over 6 Save Files while the Anomaly has control over one (there is a huge power difference between them).
"He is stronger, but Pacifist frisk's soul is on his level on DT, that isn't debatable."
>Sees Frisk constantly dying to Photoshop Flowey without using DT to naturally self-resurrect as he did with Asriel
>Forgets the fact that the only way Photoshop Flowey could overpower Frisk's ability to SAVE was to overpower their DT (which Flowey explicitly explained why couldn't use the ability to "SAVE" anymore because of that)
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Dude. Stop using wikipedia. Use stuff from cano. There is no indication of any difference, and what flowey destroys is a savepoint regardless.
Prove that dude. This seems your own, personal, baseless headcanon if you don't. There is no indication that new timelines are created for every one of your actions.
That was not done through saving. He simply used the souls power to make a personal reality. Saving is merely saving a point in time to which you can return to.
Photoshop Flowey overpowered their Save File and physically destroyed it & so as their Determination. Not to mention that Photoshop Flowey has control over 6 Save Files while the Anomaly has control over one (there is a huge power difference between them).
No. That is frisk. He overpowered Frisk's savefile, he overwrote Frisk's savefile, and Frisk was weaker than he was during genocide here. While at full force their DT stalemates goddamn Asriel.
You seem to have this weird notion that Frisk eqals the anomaly, and that a Frisk from a normal run is anything but fodder to a genocide Frisk.
Prove that dude. This seems your own, personal, baseless headcanon if you don't. There is no indication that new timelines are created for every one of your actions.
That was not done through saving. He simply used the souls power to make a personal reality. Saving is merely saving a point in time to which you can return to.
Photoshop Flowey overpowered their Save File and physically destroyed it & so as their Determination. Not to mention that Photoshop Flowey has control over 6 Save Files while the Anomaly has control over one (there is a huge power difference between them).
No. That is frisk. He overpowered Frisk's savefile, he overwrote Frisk's savefile, and Frisk was weaker than he was during genocide here. While at full force their DT stalemates goddamn Asriel.
You seem to have this weird notion that Frisk eqals the anomaly, and that a Frisk from a normal run is anything but fodder to a genocide Frisk.
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That wiki argument is still fallacious
Yeah, i dont think "my world" means he literally reshaped the world. It is like saying superman prime is universal for saying "welcome to my universe". It is a hyperbole more than anything.
The anomoly isnt limited to one save file. He can destroy all of them with true reset. flowey is just constantly saving and loading over frisks death so he can send him back to that position. Also it is frisk who actually uses save and reload. The anomaly just allows that to happen.
When has it been stated that he directly affects the anomalys determination and overpowers him to affect save files? Plus it would only mean overpowering frisks determination which can vary in power.
Yeah, i dont think "my world" means he literally reshaped the world. It is like saying superman prime is universal for saying "welcome to my universe". It is a hyperbole more than anything.
The anomoly isnt limited to one save file. He can destroy all of them with true reset. flowey is just constantly saving and loading over frisks death so he can send him back to that position. Also it is frisk who actually uses save and reload. The anomaly just allows that to happen.
When has it been stated that he directly affects the anomalys determination and overpowers him to affect save files? Plus it would only mean overpowering frisks determination which can vary in power.
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@Read this post
"Isnt that an appeal to definitio and association fallacy? Either way. Save files do not physically contain the information of those entire timelines. They are just ways of accessing certain points in those timelines. And a point you can return to. If each save file were to contain all of the information and history of that timeline then realistically, you would be able to go to any point in those timelines as you pleased and skip to any point in time and view that timelines ending right away. But you cant. You can only go to a certain point and get an ending from there."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saved_game
"is a piece of digitally stored informatio about the progress of a player in a video game."
^ Self-explanatory and where else does the game stores timelines? And those ways are through save points (just a reminder: Save Files =/= Save Points to be clear) which allows you to return back to the last one you saved after loading a save file with the information you saved onto it. There is a similar thing that works like that in a way called FUN values which allows you to enter into different uiniverses (Goner Kid left heavily implied statements and some Gaster followers as well that each FUN value are technically considered to be realities) where some characters exists here and some don't when changing the numbers. I answered this with @Ricsi that a new timeline may be created after altering the original one after doing specific actions that may lead to these changes.
"Flowey never did anything the anomaly. He just tampered with the gameplay mechanics, which is something even asgore can do. It is only an ability used on frisk. Not directly on the player. chara was actually able to take the players soul and destroy and recreate the game as a whole. Utilising gameplay mechanics and save files =/= affecting the entire reality of the game or matching the anomaly."
Photoshop Flowey overpowered the control the Anomaly has over the game is what I'm basically saying. Photoshop Flowey warped the entire game to make his world by messing with the coding of the Undertale game.
"Photoshop flowey has never shown superior to either chara or the anomaly. Asriel at best is only slightly stronger than chara."
I already explained why Photoshop Flowey is superior to both of them from my previous responses and for Asriel, it is by a large margin of power difference between them rather than a small one.
"Isnt that an appeal to definitio and association fallacy? Either way. Save files do not physically contain the information of those entire timelines. They are just ways of accessing certain points in those timelines. And a point you can return to. If each save file were to contain all of the information and history of that timeline then realistically, you would be able to go to any point in those timelines as you pleased and skip to any point in time and view that timelines ending right away. But you cant. You can only go to a certain point and get an ending from there."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saved_game
"is a piece of digitally stored informatio about the progress of a player in a video game."
^ Self-explanatory and where else does the game stores timelines? And those ways are through save points (just a reminder: Save Files =/= Save Points to be clear) which allows you to return back to the last one you saved after loading a save file with the information you saved onto it. There is a similar thing that works like that in a way called FUN values which allows you to enter into different uiniverses (Goner Kid left heavily implied statements and some Gaster followers as well that each FUN value are technically considered to be realities) where some characters exists here and some don't when changing the numbers. I answered this with @Ricsi that a new timeline may be created after altering the original one after doing specific actions that may lead to these changes.
"Flowey never did anything the anomaly. He just tampered with the gameplay mechanics, which is something even asgore can do. It is only an ability used on frisk. Not directly on the player. chara was actually able to take the players soul and destroy and recreate the game as a whole. Utilising gameplay mechanics and save files =/= affecting the entire reality of the game or matching the anomaly."
Photoshop Flowey overpowered the control the Anomaly has over the game is what I'm basically saying. Photoshop Flowey warped the entire game to make his world by messing with the coding of the Undertale game.
"Photoshop flowey has never shown superior to either chara or the anomaly. Asriel at best is only slightly stronger than chara."
I already explained why Photoshop Flowey is superior to both of them from my previous responses and for Asriel, it is by a large margin of power difference between them rather than a small one.
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Also i should mention that saving and loading is something base flowey can do using determination. The anomoly cannot be scaled based on how he saves and reloads. otherwise he would be base flowey level by your logic.
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You cannot use wikipedia's definition. Please don't tell me that I need to explain why. Please.
Assuming that a new timeline is created through actions is absolute headcanon that isn't supported in-verse.
No, he didn't. He overpowered frisk. A pacifist frisk, who is fodder to genocide for reasons I already explained.
He never messed with the game's codes. The unedertale reality does not reconize itself as a game dude.
Assuming that a new timeline is created through actions is absolute headcanon that isn't supported in-verse.
No, he didn't. He overpowered frisk. A pacifist frisk, who is fodder to genocide for reasons I already explained.
He never messed with the game's codes. The unedertale reality does not reconize itself as a game dude.
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Ricsi viragosi You seem to be getting a little heated there friend. Let me take care of this for now 
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It's not really heat, more incredulousness, mostly due to the wikipedia thing.
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Save files storing information just means storing it away or keeping the information for later until going into it. Saving doesnt physically store a timeline within itself. If i had a set of buttons that contained information about alternate timelines and sent me to them, that wouldnt make destroying the buttons the equivilent of destroying the timelines themselves. Storing can happen externally. accessing information of those timelines =/= the timelines themselves. And if we go by how saving actually works, if frisk destroyed the entirety of the timelines, that information would be gone forever (truly). The souls wouldnt just be able to recreate lost information from nothing when their only known power is saving and reloading. It would be like trying to get back a word document that is completely erased from your computer. In fact after a true reset or end of genocide your information is actually gone when the timelines are destroyed
"Photoshop Flowey overpowered the control the Anomaly has over the game is what I'm basically saying. Photoshop Flowey warped the entire game to make his world by messing with the coding of the Undertale game."
The anomoly can still control the frisk which is a part of the game. Chara is able to erase all gameplay mechanics outright without even needing to fight you. There is an obvious power difference between the two characters. In fact flowey doesnt even use the souls again because he knows frisk will beat him again. Despite the fact that he could logically take the souls and recorrect his mistakes by destroying everything outright. Asgore destroyed the ability to show mercy which is also cutting off access to one of the "anomolies powers" and yet he is not 4D. Flowey didnt change the games reality. He just cut off frisks access to those timelines, throws frisk back to a specific point and made an intro to his own fight which isnt even 4D.
Taking control over the game =/= taking control of the games reality. It is like the difference between breaking and altering a few laws of physics along with power null and completely warping an entire universes time and space. There is a clear difference between the two.
Overpowering frisks determination is completely different from overpowering the anomaly itself. There is nothing to suggest omega flowey scaling to the higher tier characters. Asriel can only be superior to chara if you assume floweys statement as true. But it wouldnt be by much at all.
"Photoshop Flowey overpowered the control the Anomaly has over the game is what I'm basically saying. Photoshop Flowey warped the entire game to make his world by messing with the coding of the Undertale game."
The anomoly can still control the frisk which is a part of the game. Chara is able to erase all gameplay mechanics outright without even needing to fight you. There is an obvious power difference between the two characters. In fact flowey doesnt even use the souls again because he knows frisk will beat him again. Despite the fact that he could logically take the souls and recorrect his mistakes by destroying everything outright. Asgore destroyed the ability to show mercy which is also cutting off access to one of the "anomolies powers" and yet he is not 4D. Flowey didnt change the games reality. He just cut off frisks access to those timelines, throws frisk back to a specific point and made an intro to his own fight which isnt even 4D.
Taking control over the game =/= taking control of the games reality. It is like the difference between breaking and altering a few laws of physics along with power null and completely warping an entire universes time and space. There is a clear difference between the two.
Overpowering frisks determination is completely different from overpowering the anomaly itself. There is nothing to suggest omega flowey scaling to the higher tier characters. Asriel can only be superior to chara if you assume floweys statement as true. But it wouldnt be by much at all.
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Okay here is my position regarding this revision:
- Save Files should no longer be treated as being literal timelines and destroying them should not be considered a tier 2 feat.
- Flowey's rating should be changed to Unknow, unless someone brings up good evidence for scaling him to Chara.
- Him destroying the save file should either be information manipulation or a form of power nullification.
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That should be alright.
This does bring the ptoblem to Asriel too. Being Infinitly stronger than flowey no longer constitutes for 2-B with this.
This does bring the ptoblem to Asriel too. Being Infinitly stronger than flowey no longer constitutes for 2-B with this.
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Why exactly..?DMUA said:
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What has that to do with Chara do with any of that?
We don't know if they are bound to a non-infinite number, since they embody the concept and all that.
Plus, chara has the anomaly's soul, and assuming that Asriel is above that in any way feels just wrong to begin with. Plus, him labling himself god doesn't mean much when Omega did the same.
We don't know if they are bound to a non-infinite number, since they embody the concept and all that.
Plus, chara has the anomaly's soul, and assuming that Asriel is above that in any way feels just wrong to begin with. Plus, him labling himself god doesn't mean much when Omega did the same.
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Not really.
Asriel is infinitely above Flowey because the latter's power is 9999, and Asriel's is Infinite. Also because Flowyey saw Asriel's power as that of a god.
If the things stated above are all true (which they seem to be), Chara was never considered in this comparison, and her power was never measured by Frisk. Also, she actually implies to be as strong as you can be at your peak.
Asriel is infinitely above Flowey because the latter's power is 9999, and Asriel's is Infinite. Also because Flowyey saw Asriel's power as that of a god.
If the things stated above are all true (which they seem to be), Chara was never considered in this comparison, and her power was never measured by Frisk. Also, she actually implies to be as strong as you can be at your peak.
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This too. Frisk at their peak could stalemate Asriel's DT and survive his attacks. Doesn't really fit "infinitly above" and all that.DMB 1 said:
Exactly my point.Kaltias said:
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Yes, they do.
I actually brought this up in my old downgrades. Flowey plain believes that frisk is chara and that they simply stole a soul. Which on it's own implies that he tought Chara's power were limited to one human soul.
Asriel plain calls you Chara till the very end of the fight. He loses those memories though.
Also, this should definitly be removed from the anomaly's profile: In the True Pacifist Route, the Player takes actions according to Frisk's personality most of the time, which leads to the reveal of the latter's name, in the end. This implies this route best represents Frisk's true nature as a person without the Player pushing them in different directions.
This is wrong for the simple fact that the only reason the name reveal is made is because someone actually bothered to ask them their name. Nothing more or less.
I actually brought this up in my old downgrades. Flowey plain believes that frisk is chara and that they simply stole a soul. Which on it's own implies that he tought Chara's power were limited to one human soul.
Asriel plain calls you Chara till the very end of the fight. He loses those memories though.
Also, this should definitly be removed from the anomaly's profile: In the True Pacifist Route, the Player takes actions according to Frisk's personality most of the time, which leads to the reveal of the latter's name, in the end. This implies this route best represents Frisk's true nature as a person without the Player pushing them in different directions.
This is wrong for the simple fact that the only reason the name reveal is made is because someone actually bothered to ask them their name. Nothing more or less.
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And why is flowey telling you to not reset, and then calling you chara taken as a fourth wall break? He could hav every well been talking to the actual frisk.
And for the matter, when does sans aknowledge that frisk isn't in control of themselfs?
And when does Chara directly say that frisk's soul isn't theirs but the player's?
Seriously, I feel that a bit too much headcanon is being taken as fact on that profile. I'll just make a crt for the anomaly too.
And for the matter, when does sans aknowledge that frisk isn't in control of themselfs?
And when does Chara directly say that frisk's soul isn't theirs but the player's?
Seriously, I feel that a bit too much headcanon is being taken as fact on that profile. I'll just make a crt for the anomaly too.
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I think azathoth or matthews imput on speed will be good here.
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@Read this post "Also i should mention that saving and loading is something base flowey can do using determination. The anomoly cannot be scaled based on how he saves and reloads. otherwise he would be base flowey level by your logic."
Yea, Base Flowey can only use to keep him from permanently dying and reloads him back at the garden IIRC and no, you are misinterpreting what I'm trying to explain and falselt assuming that I would imply the 2nd thing you mentioned to be true.
"Save files storing information just means storing it away or keeping the information for later until going into it. Saving doesnt physically store a timeline within itself. If i had a set of buttons that contained information about alternate timelines and sent me to them, that wouldnt make destroying the buttons the equivilent of destroying the timelines themselves. Storing can happen externally. accessing information of those timelines =/= the timelines themselves. And if we go by how saving actually works, if frisk destroyed the entirety of the timelines, that information would be gone forever (truly). The souls wouldnt just be able to recreate lost information from nothing when their only known power is saving and reloading. It would be like trying to get back a word document that is completely erased from your computer. In fact after a true reset or end of genocide your information is actually gone when the timelines are destroyed"
Let me ask you this, Save Files stores the events and everything you in the game right? Right. So what do you think a timeline is in a game? I'll wait for your response on that one. So basically you assume a timeline stores a save file in this case if its not the other way around? There is no proof of that and you need a better explanation for it just in case you moght make that claim. If not, then I rest my case there.
The fact that you pointed out how Flowey mentioned that using the True Reset on the Save File will destroy the timeline contained within it would disprove your claim how Save Files doesn't contain timelines as forms of information.
"Photoshop Flowey overpowered the control the Anomaly has over the game is what I'm basically saying. Photoshop Flowey warped the entire game to make his world by messing with the coding of the Undertale game."
Yea, so I don't need to explain anymore regarding that.
"The anomoly can still control the frisk which is a part of the game. Chara is able to erase all gameplay mechanics outright without even needing to fight you. There is an obvious power difference between the two characters. In fact flowey doesnt even use the souls again because he knows frisk will beat him again. Despite the fact that he could logically take the souls and recorrect his mistakes by destroying everything outright. Asgore destroyed the ability to show mercy which is also cutting off access to one of the "anomolies powers" and yet he is not 4D. Flowey didnt change the games reality. He just cut off frisks access to those timelines, throws frisk back to a specific point and made an intro to his own fight which isnt even 4D."
Photoshop Flowey also erased all of the gameplay mechanics too, Frisk is merely just getting outside help from the Human Souls. Everything else you mentioned was right so far except for not doing any changes with the game's reality. Photoshop Flowey changing the intro may not be a 4-D feat but it doesn't mean he didn't warp it by manipulating reality to an extent and the fact that lead to the creation of his world would involve actually changing reality as well.
"Taking control over the game =/= taking control of the games reality. It is like the difference between breaking and altering a few laws of physics along with power null and completely warping an entire universes time and space. There is a clear difference between the two."
Photoshop Flowey did both, not just one.
"Overpowering frisks determination is completely different from overpowering the anomaly itself. There is nothing to suggest omega flowey scaling to the higher tier characters. Asriel can only be superior to chara if you assume floweys statement as true. But it wouldnt be by much at all."
I see no proof of the Anomaly showing anything that proves he should be superior to Photoshop Flowey in any way and Flowey's statement makes both of superior to Chara, not specifically only Asriel.
Yea, Base Flowey can only use to keep him from permanently dying and reloads him back at the garden IIRC and no, you are misinterpreting what I'm trying to explain and falselt assuming that I would imply the 2nd thing you mentioned to be true.
"Save files storing information just means storing it away or keeping the information for later until going into it. Saving doesnt physically store a timeline within itself. If i had a set of buttons that contained information about alternate timelines and sent me to them, that wouldnt make destroying the buttons the equivilent of destroying the timelines themselves. Storing can happen externally. accessing information of those timelines =/= the timelines themselves. And if we go by how saving actually works, if frisk destroyed the entirety of the timelines, that information would be gone forever (truly). The souls wouldnt just be able to recreate lost information from nothing when their only known power is saving and reloading. It would be like trying to get back a word document that is completely erased from your computer. In fact after a true reset or end of genocide your information is actually gone when the timelines are destroyed"
Let me ask you this, Save Files stores the events and everything you in the game right? Right. So what do you think a timeline is in a game? I'll wait for your response on that one. So basically you assume a timeline stores a save file in this case if its not the other way around? There is no proof of that and you need a better explanation for it just in case you moght make that claim. If not, then I rest my case there.
The fact that you pointed out how Flowey mentioned that using the True Reset on the Save File will destroy the timeline contained within it would disprove your claim how Save Files doesn't contain timelines as forms of information.
"Photoshop Flowey overpowered the control the Anomaly has over the game is what I'm basically saying. Photoshop Flowey warped the entire game to make his world by messing with the coding of the Undertale game."
Yea, so I don't need to explain anymore regarding that.
"The anomoly can still control the frisk which is a part of the game. Chara is able to erase all gameplay mechanics outright without even needing to fight you. There is an obvious power difference between the two characters. In fact flowey doesnt even use the souls again because he knows frisk will beat him again. Despite the fact that he could logically take the souls and recorrect his mistakes by destroying everything outright. Asgore destroyed the ability to show mercy which is also cutting off access to one of the "anomolies powers" and yet he is not 4D. Flowey didnt change the games reality. He just cut off frisks access to those timelines, throws frisk back to a specific point and made an intro to his own fight which isnt even 4D."
Photoshop Flowey also erased all of the gameplay mechanics too, Frisk is merely just getting outside help from the Human Souls. Everything else you mentioned was right so far except for not doing any changes with the game's reality. Photoshop Flowey changing the intro may not be a 4-D feat but it doesn't mean he didn't warp it by manipulating reality to an extent and the fact that lead to the creation of his world would involve actually changing reality as well.
"Taking control over the game =/= taking control of the games reality. It is like the difference between breaking and altering a few laws of physics along with power null and completely warping an entire universes time and space. There is a clear difference between the two."
Photoshop Flowey did both, not just one.
"Overpowering frisks determination is completely different from overpowering the anomaly itself. There is nothing to suggest omega flowey scaling to the higher tier characters. Asriel can only be superior to chara if you assume floweys statement as true. But it wouldnt be by much at all."
I see no proof of the Anomaly showing anything that proves he should be superior to Photoshop Flowey in any way and Flowey's statement makes both of superior to Chara, not specifically only Asriel.
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@Ricsi "You cannot use wikipedia's definition. Please don't tell me that I need to explain why. Please."
That won't change the fact that badically every Save File works this way.
"Assuming that a new timeline is created through actions is absolute headcanon that isn't supported in-verse."
Why and how do you think different types of routes exist in Undertale in the first place?
"No, he didn't. He overpowered frisk. A pacifist frisk, who is fodder to genocide for reasons I already explained."
Photoshop Flowey overpowered both in many aspects.
"He never messed with the game's codes. The unedertale reality does not reconize itself as a game dude."
You must have not seen what was happening to the windowscreen of the game when the corrupted Undertale intro started playing because Flowey was literally messing with it to create his own reality. I don't follow the 2nd thing you mentioned for this.
That won't change the fact that badically every Save File works this way.
"Assuming that a new timeline is created through actions is absolute headcanon that isn't supported in-verse."
Why and how do you think different types of routes exist in Undertale in the first place?
"No, he didn't. He overpowered frisk. A pacifist frisk, who is fodder to genocide for reasons I already explained."
Photoshop Flowey overpowered both in many aspects.
"He never messed with the game's codes. The unedertale reality does not reconize itself as a game dude."
You must have not seen what was happening to the windowscreen of the game when the corrupted Undertale intro started playing because Flowey was literally messing with it to create his own reality. I don't follow the 2nd thing you mentioned for this.
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Exept it does. There is absolutly no proof that it's how undertale savefiles wrok. Again, occam's razor, they are only a point in time that you save so that you can return to it.
Butterfly effect. You take different actions, different outcomes come with it. Assuming a whole reality isd created for every action you take is unfounded and absolutly needs proof.
Omega Flowey never encountered a full power pacifist frisk. A full power pacifist frisk, as brief as the powerlevel they reached was, could tank attacks from Asriel, who is infinitly above Omega.
Yes, that does not mean he was messing with the files themselfs. The files never get changed by a character directly, and the undertale world is not made out of information. He simply created a reality where the intro is specifically misleading.
Butterfly effect. You take different actions, different outcomes come with it. Assuming a whole reality isd created for every action you take is unfounded and absolutly needs proof.
Omega Flowey never encountered a full power pacifist frisk. A full power pacifist frisk, as brief as the powerlevel they reached was, could tank attacks from Asriel, who is infinitly above Omega.
Yes, that does not mean he was messing with the files themselfs. The files never get changed by a character directly, and the undertale world is not made out of information. He simply created a reality where the intro is specifically misleading.
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"Yea, Base Flowey can only use to keep him from permanently dying and reloads him back at the garden IIRC and no, you are misinterpreting what I'm trying to explain and falselt assuming that I would imply the 2nd thing you mentioned to be true."
It still involves creating save files, which flowey himself is knowledgeable on as well. It really isnt. Flowey saving and loading efficiently is not a power feat, it is a hax feat. He is just capable of forcing frisk to reload.
"Let me ask you this, Save Files stores the events and everything you in the game right? Right. So what do you think a timeline is in a game? I'll wait for your response on that one. So basically you assume a timeline stores a save file in this case if its not the other way around? There is no proof of that and you need a better explanation for it just in case you moght make that claim. If not, then I rest my case there."
That sounds almost like burden of proof. But no. Save files storing events does not mean storing the whole timelines. If you save at a certain point in the game, every event that has happened before that point will be a part of that timeline. If you return to that point, all of those events would have now taken place, and yet the save file is still a certain point in that timeline. The save file just allows you to go back to a specific point where those memories have already taken place. Meaning those memories "information" is now restored. But that doesnt mean that the save file physically encompasses the timeline. It just means it is a point where all of those events have taken place, meaning the events have been "saved" or "stored".
"The fact that you pointed out how Flowey mentioned that using the True Reset on the Save File will destroy the timeline contained within it would disprove your claim how Save Files doesn't contain timelines as forms of information."
True reset is something you do to the entire game. It wipes everything out (like chara did in genocide) and reeboots everything. It is very different from wiping out save files.
"Yea, so I don't need to explain anymore regarding that."
that was me quoting you. But i forgot to add the speech marks. My mistake.
"Photoshop Flowey also erased all of the gameplay mechanics too, Frisk is merely just getting outside help from the Human Souls. Everything else you mentioned was right so far except for not doing any changes with the game's reality. Photoshop Flowey changing the intro may not be a 4-D feat but it doesn't mean he didn't warp it by manipulating reality to an extent and the fact that lead to the creation of his world would involve actually changing reality as well."
He didnt. He just changed some of the gameplay mechanics to make a fight different from most others. Plus controlling frisk and using the fight option when it shows up is a gameplay mechanic. The creation of his world is just a hyperbole like i have mentioned. Changing aspects of the game still does not mean changing the entire reality of the game. If we went by that logic then any toon force user would be universal+ or higher. Also chara erased all gameplay mechanics and ended up reducing it to a blank screen as a result.
"Photoshop Flowey did both, not just one." Nope. He just negged frisks abilities and changed how the game works, mostly to combat frisk.
"I see no proof of the Anomaly showing anything that proves he should be superior to Photoshop Flowey in any way and Flowey's statement makes both of superior to Chara, not specifically only Asriel."
Im pretty sure floweys statement was debunked in more ways than one already. The anomaly giving chara the power to destroy the games reality with a single strike with no way of defeating them or utilising gameplay to defeat them is easily enough to put them above flowey. Also im pretty sure this is burden of proof. Since there is nothing to suggest flowey above chara or the player without assumptions or headcannon, his tier should be changed to unknown.
It still involves creating save files, which flowey himself is knowledgeable on as well. It really isnt. Flowey saving and loading efficiently is not a power feat, it is a hax feat. He is just capable of forcing frisk to reload.
"Let me ask you this, Save Files stores the events and everything you in the game right? Right. So what do you think a timeline is in a game? I'll wait for your response on that one. So basically you assume a timeline stores a save file in this case if its not the other way around? There is no proof of that and you need a better explanation for it just in case you moght make that claim. If not, then I rest my case there."
That sounds almost like burden of proof. But no. Save files storing events does not mean storing the whole timelines. If you save at a certain point in the game, every event that has happened before that point will be a part of that timeline. If you return to that point, all of those events would have now taken place, and yet the save file is still a certain point in that timeline. The save file just allows you to go back to a specific point where those memories have already taken place. Meaning those memories "information" is now restored. But that doesnt mean that the save file physically encompasses the timeline. It just means it is a point where all of those events have taken place, meaning the events have been "saved" or "stored".
"The fact that you pointed out how Flowey mentioned that using the True Reset on the Save File will destroy the timeline contained within it would disprove your claim how Save Files doesn't contain timelines as forms of information."
True reset is something you do to the entire game. It wipes everything out (like chara did in genocide) and reeboots everything. It is very different from wiping out save files.
"Yea, so I don't need to explain anymore regarding that."
that was me quoting you. But i forgot to add the speech marks
. My mistake."Photoshop Flowey also erased all of the gameplay mechanics too, Frisk is merely just getting outside help from the Human Souls. Everything else you mentioned was right so far except for not doing any changes with the game's reality. Photoshop Flowey changing the intro may not be a 4-D feat but it doesn't mean he didn't warp it by manipulating reality to an extent and the fact that lead to the creation of his world would involve actually changing reality as well."
He didnt. He just changed some of the gameplay mechanics to make a fight different from most others. Plus controlling frisk and using the fight option when it shows up is a gameplay mechanic. The creation of his world is just a hyperbole like i have mentioned. Changing aspects of the game still does not mean changing the entire reality of the game. If we went by that logic then any toon force user would be universal+ or higher. Also chara erased all gameplay mechanics and ended up reducing it to a blank screen as a result.
"Photoshop Flowey did both, not just one." Nope. He just negged frisks abilities and changed how the game works, mostly to combat frisk.
"I see no proof of the Anomaly showing anything that proves he should be superior to Photoshop Flowey in any way and Flowey's statement makes both of superior to Chara, not specifically only Asriel."
Im pretty sure floweys statement was debunked in more ways than one already. The anomaly giving chara the power to destroy the games reality with a single strike with no way of defeating them or utilising gameplay to defeat them is easily enough to put them above flowey. Also im pretty sure this is burden of proof. Since there is nothing to suggest flowey above chara or the player without assumptions or headcannon, his tier should be changed to unknown.
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Andytremon Cutting off someones access to other timelines wouldnt be information manip. Although the first one might be. It depends on what you consider that ability to fall under.
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@Ricsi
"Exept it does. There is absolutly no proof that it's how undertale savefiles wrok. Again, occam's razor, they are only a point in time that you save so that you can return to it."
That's literally how every save file works, data and information doesn't go anywhere else besides being stored inside a save file after saving. Those points of time are represented by Save Points which are those yellow stars manifested by your determination (read the UT manual since it explicitly mentions what the yellow stars is and what they represent) you save the game at and reload your save file to get back to the last save point you left off.
"Butterfly effect. You take different actions, different outcomes come with it. Assuming a whole reality isd created for every action you take is unfounded and absolutly needs proof."
Mentioning this actually further proves my point and that's where alternate endings in Undertale comes in. You don't randomly encounter Asriel Dreemurr and Chara in the same endings & your choices do matter, idk why you are denying something that was already been established in the game. Undertale doesn't work the same way as Deltarune.
"Omega Flowey never encountered a full power pacifist frisk. A full power pacifist frisk, as brief as the powerlevel they reached was, could tank attacks from Asriel, who is infinitly above Omega."
Ik and that's one of the reasons why Photoshop Flowey had to overpower Frisk's DT since that's the only thing in the way of allowing him to use the ability to "SAVE" to its fullest extent, Flowey is aware of what usually goes on in other timelines after all.
"Yes, that does not mean he was messing with the files themselfs. The files never get changed by a character directly, and the undertale world is not made out of information. He simply created a reality where the intro is specifically misleading."
>and the undertale world is not made out of information
What....? Isn't adding, creating, and programming things from data, codes, files and etc. (which are all types of information) is basically how all video games are created....?
>He simply created a reality where the intro is specifically misleading.
And messing with the coding of the game which you can clearly see if you minimize the game to a small screen and look at top where you see the name of the game "Undertale" while the corrupted video is playing.
"Exept it does. There is absolutly no proof that it's how undertale savefiles wrok. Again, occam's razor, they are only a point in time that you save so that you can return to it."
That's literally how every save file works, data and information doesn't go anywhere else besides being stored inside a save file after saving. Those points of time are represented by Save Points which are those yellow stars manifested by your determination (read the UT manual since it explicitly mentions what the yellow stars is and what they represent) you save the game at and reload your save file to get back to the last save point you left off.
"Butterfly effect. You take different actions, different outcomes come with it. Assuming a whole reality isd created for every action you take is unfounded and absolutly needs proof."
Mentioning this actually further proves my point and that's where alternate endings in Undertale comes in. You don't randomly encounter Asriel Dreemurr and Chara in the same endings & your choices do matter, idk why you are denying something that was already been established in the game. Undertale doesn't work the same way as Deltarune.
"Omega Flowey never encountered a full power pacifist frisk. A full power pacifist frisk, as brief as the powerlevel they reached was, could tank attacks from Asriel, who is infinitly above Omega."
Ik and that's one of the reasons why Photoshop Flowey had to overpower Frisk's DT since that's the only thing in the way of allowing him to use the ability to "SAVE" to its fullest extent, Flowey is aware of what usually goes on in other timelines after all.
"Yes, that does not mean he was messing with the files themselfs. The files never get changed by a character directly, and the undertale world is not made out of information. He simply created a reality where the intro is specifically misleading."
>and the undertale world is not made out of information
What....? Isn't adding, creating, and programming things from data, codes, files and etc. (which are all types of information) is basically how all video games are created....?
>He simply created a reality where the intro is specifically misleading.
And messing with the coding of the game which you can clearly see if you minimize the game to a small screen and look at top where you see the name of the game "Undertale" while the corrupted video is playing.
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I don't care how other sacefiles work. Unless you can prove it's the case here, they don't. Because saying that this are normal savefiles in any way is just wrong.
That doesn't prove your point at all. You are claiming that every one of your actions creates a different timeline.
This. Needs. Proof.
And Deltarune? Why did you bring that up here? I didn't, and Deltarune is specifically the antithesis of Undertale.
He overpowered a normal run frisk. Asriel couldn't overpower a Pacifist run frisk.
Flowey never programmed anything. And there is no reason to assume that what he added was done through information manipulation. Not that it matters here. Omega doesn't scale to Chara.
...What? This is like trying to datamine things and expect people to take it as canon.
That doesn't prove your point at all. You are claiming that every one of your actions creates a different timeline.
This. Needs. Proof.
And Deltarune? Why did you bring that up here? I didn't, and Deltarune is specifically the antithesis of Undertale.
He overpowered a normal run frisk. Asriel couldn't overpower a Pacifist run frisk.
Flowey never programmed anything. And there is no reason to assume that what he added was done through information manipulation. Not that it matters here. Omega doesn't scale to Chara.
...What? This is like trying to datamine things and expect people to take it as canon.
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