Undertale & Durability Negation: Fact, or Fiction?

[Moritzva]

Did you forget Magic Damaging the Mad Dummi, who is immune to physical hits?

Mad Dummy is hurt by mechanical missiles from mechanical robots. Additionally, it's far more likely that Frisk just isn't strong enough to hurt Mad Dummy, but Mad Dummy can hurt himself. So, moot.

 

[The_Calaca]

Isn't the Mad Dummi immune because he assembles himself only?

 

[Moritzva]

Isn't the Mad Dummi immune because he assembles himself only?

This too. Frisk, who doesn't hit the soul, is only damaging the physical body, which then reforms. Mad Dummy's magical attacks would hurt the body and the soul - and the soul isn't reforming so easily, so Mad Dummy takes damage.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Mad Dummy calls those Missiles Magic Missiles a.k.a the're the same as his normal attacks but more explosive,also even a Neutral Frisk that can kill Toriel can't kill Mad Dummy, and Mad Dummy has -40 Def, and if you check him they state he's immune to physical attacks, so the Magic attacks were attacking his Soul.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Isn't the Mad Dummi immune because he assembles himself only?

He's a ghost that lives inside a dummy, and his Magic and Napstablocks Magic damage his soul.

 

[Moritzva]

Immunity isn't something we do here. 40 defense is a lot, but he isn't actually immune - he just reforms whenever he takes damage. Which actually proves my point exactly!

Combat Dummy, against Frisk's attacks, takes physical damage but no soul damage. Thus, he reforms, and is completely fine.

Against his own attacks, he takes physical damage and soul damage. He reforms, but since he was able to hurt himself, his soul is still hurt, thus he takes some damage.

 

[The_Calaca]

Magic =/= Soulhax necessarily.

Also, Napstablook exists. He's truly invulnerable because he's a ghost.

 

[Theuser789]

Ghosts can only be hurt by magic in Undertale, like Napstablook not taking any damage from your attacks, the same aplies to Mad Dummy since he wasn't fully fused with his body

 

[Theuser789]

I'm aware. I'm saying that Chara is cleary an exception and has a large amount of magic voodoo in regards to her connection to Frisk. So, it makes sense that the item would have unique effects regarding that connection. Other items, not so much.

Meh, fair enough since it only happens to Chara and in the genocide route

 

[Moritzva]

Yea, just about every factor of Napsta and Mad Dummy actually goes to further the reasonings for removing Durability Negation, as they are all incredibly consistent with what was proposed above.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Yea, just about every factor of Napsta and Mad Dummy actually goes to further the reasonings for removing Durability Negation, as they are all incredibly consistent with what was proposed above.

Why? Doesn't it prove Durability Negation? As they Damage Souls? Even if the ennemie has lots of physical Durability, it doesn't matter as They atttack their Souls the same damage.

 

[Skalt711]

Agreed with Moritzva's reasonings

 

[Moritzva]

Mad Dummy only takes no damage because he can reform after every attack and is part-ghost. You could argue non-physical interaction, though, which I'd probably support.

 

[The_Calaca]

NPI seems better.

But in no way Dura Negation via Soulhax is legit if its effects can be lessened by wearing average clothes.

 

[Moritzva]

NPI seems better.
But in no way Dura Negation via Soulhax is legit if its effects can be lessened by wearing average clothes.

Yea. Durability Negation is moreso an assumption based on how soulhax is usually treated in other verses, rather than something with any actual evidence in-verse. A dura-negating attack, that you can build your durability against, doesn't seem right.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Wouldn't it be Durability Negation? As it attacks the soul? Which means it can kill someone even if he has superior Physical Durability but doesn't have Soul Resistance.

 

[The_Calaca]

We're literally debunking that.

 

[Moritzva]

Wouldn't it be Durability Negation? As it attacks the soul? Which means it can kill someone even if he has superior Physical Durability but doesn't have Soul Resistance.

This entire debate is that Undertale soul damage is directly based off being able to damage the body. Mad Dummy can damage his own body, and thus, can damage his soul. If you wear armor and clothing, no matter how dubious that clothing is, your body is better protected, and equally, your soul takes less damage.

Meanwhile, there isn't actually a single bit of evidence supporting durability negation.

Non-Physical Interaction might be added, but that's another thread.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

There's still the locket argument, also how would a Tutu,Bandana and Glasses protect Small building level attacks? Even the Game makes fun of this with the old Tutu.

 

[Moritzva]

There's still the locket argument, also how would a Tutu,Bandana and Glasses protect Small building level attacks? Even the Game makes fun of this with the old Tutu.

I debated how the locket was clearly a special case, plus there's no actual evidence of it specifically protecting the soul, and not simply magically protecting the body. So that's just an assumption.

How do half-naked anime girls survive town-level attacks in fiction? Because sometimes fiction is like that. Yes, some pieces of armor are a bit odd, but Undertale is nothing if not known of it's light comedic gags, and Temmie Armor does exist for proof that some level of armor is present.

I'm far more willing to say that Toby Fox was screwing around and making funny armor pieces rather than "This tutu magically protects my soul from magical interference despite there being literally nothing that implies that!"

 

[Buttersamuri]

You really wouldn't think we could find a way to kick them down another notch, yet now they are getting their arguably best hack potentially yeeted. Oh how the mighty have fallen

time to yeet Sans durability

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Welp, I tried to protect it, but It seems Undertale will lose it's best hax, but could Soul Manipulation and resistance stay? Because even Mad Dummy, which has AP that makes it's durability garbage could take lots of Hits that would have killed Frisk 10 times over, and Soul manipulation for the monsters like Undyne,Papyrus and Sans? For limiting frisk'soul.

 

[The_Calaca]

Their Soulhax relies on AP difference, so I doubt it.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Their Soulhax relies on AP difference, so I doubt it.

Well Undyne turning your soul Green or Papyrus turning you blue has nothing to do with AP,and Mad Dummy could tank lots of Soul attacks that would have killed frisk in the first 3 turns.

 

[Buttersamuri]

The only hacks that can stay I believe that bypasses regen is Sans poison effect

And that leaves a question. If someone is immune to poison, or has high resistance, does that mean they can resist this effect now?

Side question on that. If yes. If a person who can interact with non physical caught and held one of Sans attacks, does it still inflect poison damage by holding it

 

[The_Calaca]

None of those soul attacks are proven to be lethal.

Mad Dummi surviving his attacks is evidence that his AP scales to his Durability and viceversa.

What Undyne, Papyrus and Sans do have nothing to do with Soulhax either. Undyne's trick is Paralysis Inducement (I guess), meanwhile the Skelebros literally mess with gravity.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Sans can increase and change where gravity moves. Papyrus just increases it

 

[Buttersamuri]

Does is specific poisoning the soul specifically? Or is that in the presumption that they attacked the soul, so it could poison it

 

[Moritzva]

The only hacks that can stay I believe that bypasses regen is Sans poison effect
And that leaves a question. If someone is immune to poison, or has high resistance, does that mean they can resist this effect now?

Side question on that. If yes. If a person who can interact with non physical caught and held one of Sans attacks, does it still inflect poison damage by holding it

I think it's actually just durability negation, not a 'poison'.

But overall, I dunno. I'd relegate it to another thread.

Overall, I suppose the changes can be added?

 

[The_Calaca]

Lol, Soul Manipulation does ignore durability and body Regenerationn. It's one of the best counters to regenerators.

Which means nothing as it's essentially the same as using gravity or Paralysis on physical bodies.

@Butter it depends. If the whole KARMA stuff is dealt the same way we are about to treat all Soulhax in Undertale, then physical resistance would be enough.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Alright. I'll make another thread discussing for it.

I'm fine with it. But this nukes like. All of their thread fights, right?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

8 or so hits from the Dummy can kill Frisk,which is the baseline Soul, but Mad Dummy took 80s of soul hits and wasn't killed,so Monsters have Soul Resistance

Mad Dummy has 4 attack but Negative 40 Def, he would have died if he didn't have soul resistance and had a normal soul like Frisk.

Blue Mode is not gravity manipulation and Green mode isn't paralysis inducement. It is soul manipulation which acts like gravity manipulation and Paralysis inducement.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

You can have Soul manipulation if you can alter a soul,which is what blue and Green mode are.

 

[Moritzva]

Using exact game stats seems very much like it's going for game mechanics.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Yea. Exact stat scaling really should be used do to simply bring inconsistent and pretty unreliable

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The 7 Atk Negative 40 Def is from the Check, not the in game stats.

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

The 4 Atk Negative 40 Def is from the Check, not the in game stats.

Yeah, and those are ingame stats. They are stats, in game.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

We use the Check stats for AP and Durability, like Undyne having 50 Atk or Asriel having Infinite Atk and Def, there's an entire blog about it.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Stats are still unreliable. They aren't really consistent

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Mad dummy has not negative 40 DEF, his DEF is "yes"