Undertale: Chara, Frisk and Sans revisions (FAILURE)

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Frisk​

The proposal is to change Peak Determined Frisk’s Attack Potency to straight up 2-B instead of 2-B Environmental Destruction.

Reasoning​

Well, let’s begin:

• Frisk’s Attack Potency is dependent on Determination, just as the profile says:

Attack Potency: Varies with Determination

Determination also links to Statistics Amplification, meaning that Frisk’s attack potency (and other stats) amplifies with Determination.

• Frisk’s Peak Determination is comparable to Asriel’s in his God of Hyperdeath form, given that the person who has most Determination gains control over timeline and SAVE/RESET system with Asriel being unable to use TRUE RESET and needing to defeat Frisk in order to get control over the timeline. As supportive, Frisk is able to survive Asriel’s attacks despite the latter having infinite ATK, and Frisk is even able to survive one of Asriel’s strongest attacks (as accepted on profile) solely due to Determination.
• This would make the gap between Peak Determination Frisk and Asriel’s Determination far less than Frisk with Immense Determination (who is obviously below Peak Determination self in Determination) and Photoshop Flowey (who is obviously below God of Hyperdeath self in Determination) with Immense DT Frisk being able to harm Photoshop Flowey, who took control over the timeline.
• Finally, Peak DT Frisk can survive Asriel’s attacks, as I showed before, even with having ATK and DEF at 0, making their AP and Durability equal, solely due to Determination.

(TL;DR: Photshop Flowey is immensely superior in determination to a Immense Determination Frisk yet Frisk can still inflict damage on Flowey, meanwhile Asriel and Peak DT Frisk had comparable in Determination, meaning that Frisk should be able to damage Asriel too. Peak DT Frisk can also survive Asriel’s attacks due to solely determination and their ATK and DEF is equal, making AP comparable to Durability)

Regarding a “contradiction”​

“We literally cannot damage Asriel”
While this is true, I do not believe that the reason here is due to Frisk being unable to, but the reason is them unwilling to do so. The evidence is Frisk doing only 1 damage to Undyne despite hitting them at full force on the True Pacifist Route. Asriel’s fight comes much, much after this, and it is hinted that Frisk wanted to actually save Asriel, due to all BUT save option getting out of the screen during Asriel’s last attack. This also makes sense logically and narratively: this conclusion does not contradict the reasoning supporting 2-B AP, and it goes along with True Pacifist Route which is all about sparing people and befriending them instead of using violence.

“Frisk never shows such AP so it doesn’t matter”
No, the logical deduction is a way to scale one’s AP. Moreover, we literally give Absolute Chara and Player Immeasurable Speed rating solely via Determination scaling chains, despite them lacking feats remotely at such level. Moreover, we give Player full AP and durability scaling solely via Determination scaling chains too. Doing so to Chara and Player but not Frisk is just a hypocrisy.

Note​

This, on the other hand, won’t affect Peak Determination Frisk’s match-ups due to them in-character having the same AP as in the battle against Asriel, aka far lower than 2-B. However, it can work with bloodlusted Peak DT Frisk.

Chara​

Chara currently is accepted to possess Frisk for the entire Genocide Route. However, this is actually not the case, and they only gain full control after Sans dodges this attack. The reasoning:

• It makes no sense for Chara to possess Frisk before last hit on Sans. The reasoning is that Sans has Instinctive Action as said on his profile, so Chara, if we assume them fighting during the entire battle, being unable to land a hit on Sans but somehow being able to do so later does not make any sense, as Instinctive Action would make Sans dodge again, even if Chara “broke the rules”. Heck, even going to the FIGHT button like this by itself is breaking the rules of the game, but Sans still manages to dodge that WHILE BEING ASLEEP, while he is awake during the second hit. It would make far more sense if Frisk was fighting the entire battle with Chara helping out in the end and blitzing Sans on the second hit, as Instinctive Action can be countered by speedblitz.
• During Genocide Route before Sans, all of monsters get their health reduced to their minimum and you inflict the exact same damage as they have HP even if you one-shot them (aka, it will not be all nines). However, when we hit Sans, he gets 9999999 damage, despite having 1 HP and 1 DEF. Same goes with Asgore: he gets 9999999999 damage despite having far lower HP. And it was recently revealed that Chara’s favorite number is 9, and they like things like all nines because there is nothing higher than that which means you’re invincible, and these both facts (9999999… ATK thing and Chara’s strong liking of “9” and thinking that a lot of 9s would make them invincible) together very heavily imply that Chara fully possessed Frisk’s body only after landing last hit on Sans.
• Last hit on Sans, Asgore and Flowey are made without player (in real life) doing anything, unlike how it was before them.

(Note: Chara does indeed take some control over Frisk before that, but on a weaker level and not in battles)

So, Chara still keeps their possessing Frisk key, but the reasoning for stats should be the following:

• Attack Potency: At least City-Block level (One-shoted Asgore)
• Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Managed to kill Sans, Asgore and Flowey without even giving them a chance to react)

Sans​

Now, to something very simple. I made this calc that got accepted, so Sans’ Range should change from Hundreds of Meters to Kilometers with Teleportation.

Yeah, it’s now just a simple calc upgrade, cuz I decided to never touch UT on this website on such things that are crossed out.

 

[ShionAH]

Agree with sans addition

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agree with sans addition

Damn boi, u know ur priorities.

• Finally, Peak DT Frisk can survive Asriel’s attacks, as I showed before, even with having ATK and DEF at 0, making their AP and Durability equal, solely due to Determination.

Frisk has 0 ATK/DEF only when they have it at minimal levels, not with boosts, so this is a lie.

While this is true, I do not believe that the reason here is due to Frisk being unable to, but the reason is them unwilling to do so. The evidence is Frisk doing only 1 damage to Undyne despite hitting them at full force on the True Pacifist Route. Asriel’s fight comes much, much after this, and it is hinted that Frisk wanted to actually save Asriel, due to all BUT save option getting out of the screen during Asriel’s last attack. This also makes sense logically and narratively: this conclusion does not contradict the reasoning supporting 2-B AP, and it goes along with True Pacifist Route which is all about sparing people and befriending them instead of using violence.

This is you purposely cherrypicking evidence.

Asriel's fight coming later does not matter at all, because you have to look to how Undertale works when it comes to the MISS animation, as there are different ways to trigger it. Yes, this will involve also the usage of hacks/mods, as it's mostly to explain the anatomy of the game:

• When the animation of your attack does not overlay on the target's sprite (1 and 2, as even proved that you can hit Sans if you have a weapon that hits across all the upper part of the screen, as that'd make it undodgeable for him).
• When the opponent's DEF is too high:
  • Mettaton in his box form (Has 255 DEF, which is above even the strongest mosters, those being Undyine the Undying, Asgore and Toriel. Immune to your attacks, due to him having 9999 DEF in coding. Frisk even describes his ass as invulnerable literally every time, and do not try to say "but Frisk wasn't trying to harm MTT!", as they can't do that in No Mercy Neutral runs either, they have to always force him in changing to his EX form first, which is far less durable even according to CHECK stats)
  • If you mod Frisk's weapons to have Negative ATK, as that'd cause most of the enemies to absorb the damage instead.
  • If you mod a monster in having super high stats, example being Gaster's (66666 ATK/DEF), as that'd cause not only them to insta-kill you with anything, but, more importantly to this thread, to be completely immune to your attacks, displaying a MISS animation.
• When you do not press the bar after choosing the FIGHT button.

Now, does Asriel dodge your attacks? No. He moves a lot in the fight, but not at the beginning, and even if we max out our stats within the game's max possibilities (aka LV 19 and 99 ATK/DEF), we cannot harm this dude, and he does not in the final form either.

Does that MISS trigger only if we choose to not him him? No.

And wanna know how much DEF Asriel has in code? Exactly, 9999! It kinda implies that Toby's intent is clear here, that Frisk cannot harm Asriel even if we spam FIGHT all the time.

Frisk deals 1 damage to Undyne when they're holding back, sure, but they still dealt a form of damage, implying that they're comparable. This also happens in the Photoshop Flowey fight, where Frisk, despite being far weaker, could still deal minimal damage to him, implying they weren't that far off at the moment.

But with Asriel/MTT? Both of these bosses, when Frisk fought them with the amount of DT they had in the respective fights, were completely immune to their blows.

I don't think you can go in circles too much around this without using headcanon as the main proxy of your argument, with stuff like "but Asriel's fight is different!" (which is impossible to prove).

No, the logical deduction is a way to scale one’s AP. Moreover, we literally give Absolute Chara and Player Immeasurable Speed rating solely via Determination scaling chains, despite them lacking feats remotely at such level. Moreover, we give Player full AP and durability scaling solely via Determination scaling chains too. Doing so to Chara and Player but not Frisk is just a hypocrisy.

This is a false equivalence. If you check the Player's profile, it does not just say "they have comparable DT to Chara", it literally says that they're the source of Chara's power.

Plus Chara/Player have Immeasurable speed because the latter being implied to be an entity on Asriel's level, as both can use the TRUE RESET, so it's more than logical they scale in also speed, it'd be silly af otherwise.

TLDR the Player has a statment implying that they have to be comparable to Asriel to some degree + they scale to Chara's feat, not to Asriel's stuff + they lack the contradiction that Frisk has.

Chara​

Chara currently is accepted to possess Frisk for the entire Genocide Route. However, this is actually not the case, and they only gain full control after Sans dodges this attack. The reasoning:

• It makes no sense for Chara to possess Frisk before last hit on Sans. The reasoning is that Sans has Instinctive Action as said on his profile, so Chara, if we assume them fighting during the entire battle, being unable to land a hit on Sans but somehow being able to do so later does not make any sense, as Instinctive Action would make Sans dodge again, even if Chara “broke the rules”. Heck, even going to the FIGHT button like this by itself is breaking the rules of the game, but Sans still manages to dodge that WHILE BEING ASLEEP, while he is awake during the second hit. It would make far more sense if Frisk was fighting the entire battle with Chara helping out in the end and blitzing Sans on the second hit, as Instinctive Action can be countered by speedblitz.
• During Genocide Route before Sans, all of monsters get their health reduced to their minimum and you inflict the exact same damage as they have HP even if you one-shot them (aka, it will not be all nines). However, when we hit Sans, he gets 9999999 damage, despite having 1 HP and 1 DEF. Same goes with Asgore: he gets 9999999999 damage despite having far lower HP. And it was recently revealed that Chara’s favorite number is 9, and they like things like all nines because there is nothing higher than that which means you’re invincible, and these both facts (9999999… ATK thing and Chara’s strong liking of “9” and thinking that a lot of 9s would make them invincible) together very heavily imply that Chara fully possessed Frisk’s body only after landing last hit on Sans.
• Last hit on Sans, Asgore and Flowey are made without player (in real life) doing anything, unlike how it was before them.

(Note: Chara does indeed take some control over Frisk before that, but on a weaker level and not in battles)

So, Chara still keeps their possessing Frisk key, but the reasoning for stats should be the following:

• Attack Potency: At least City-Block level (One-shoted Asgore)
• Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Managed to kill Sans, Asgore and Flowey without even giving them a chance to react)

This entire section proves you didn't read the scans/blogs used for the justification:

• Possession and Breaking the Fourth Wall (Took control of Frisk through the Genocide run, as shown with the text recognizing Frisk as Chara unlike in the other Routes, Flowey instantly recognizing them as Chara despite having a different appearance and other big changes in personality than Frisk's that other monsters notice. Despite said control can be broken if the Player does not collaborate with them in their guidance, Chara will still take full control of Frisk at the end of a True Pacifist completed after a Genocide run[5])

I've bolded the most important evidence, as the blog that was linked shows also other major showings of Chara possessing Frisk (eg. them stepping on Papyrus' puzzle without our input, them walking towards Monster Kid on their own, or also them walking towards Sans on their own at the end of Genocide, all the dialogue changes, etc.)

These are all actions that Frisk does not do on their own in the Neutral/Pacifist, implying that is Chara's doing.

Sans​

Now, to something very simple. I made this calc that got accepted, so Sans’ Range should change from Hundreds of Meters to Kilometers with Teleportation.

Meh, good enough.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Damn boi, u know ur priorities.

Real

Frisk has 0 ATK/DEF only when they have it at minimal levels, not with boosts, so this is a lie.

No, without any equipment and at LV 1 they have 0 ATK & DEF. At True Pacifist you must have LV 1 and you can fight Asriel without any equipment whatsoever.

This is you purposely cherrypicking evidence.

No, it's me trying to come up with logical explanation.

Asriel's fight coming later does not matter at all, because you have to look to how Undertale works when it comes to the MISS animation, as there are different ways to trigger it. Yes, this will involve also the usage of hacks/mods, as it's mostly to explain the anatomy of the game:

• When the animation of your attack does not overlay on the target's sprite (1 and 2, as even proved that you can hit Sans if you have a weapon that hits across all the upper part of the screen, as that'd make it undodgeable for him).
• When the opponent's DEF is too high:
  • Mettaton in his box form (Has 255 DEF, which is above even the strongest mosters, those being Undyine the Undying, Asgore and Toriel. Immune to your attacks, due to him having 9999 DEF in coding. Frisk even describes his ass as invulnerable literally every time, and do not try to say "but Frisk wasn't trying to harm MTT!", as they can't do that in No Mercy Neutral runs either, they have to always force him in changing to his EX form first, which is far less durable even according to CHECK stats)
  • If you mod Frisk's weapons to have Negative ATK, as that'd cause most of the enemies to absorb the damage instead.
  • If you mod a monster in having super high stats, example being Gaster's (66666 ATK/DEF), as that'd cause not only them to insta-kill you with anything, but, more importantly to this thread, to be completely immune to your attacks, displaying a MISS animation.

Now, does Asriel dodge your attacks? No. He moves a lot in the fight, but not at the beginning, and even if we max out our stats within the game's max possibilities (aka LV 19 and 99 ATK/DEF), we cannot harm this dude, and he does not in the final form either.

And wanna know how much DEF Asriel has in code? Exactly, 9999! It kinda implies that Toby's intent is clear here, that Frisk cannot harm Asriel even if we spam FIGHT all the time.

The problem here: I did imply that I agree that Frisk cannot damage Asriel because the latter is too durable. However, the reason is that they don't want to harm him, hence why he is so durable to Frisk. It's like if you hit a person with no effort, they will be "too durable" for you too...
Also, your arguments are honestly the same as "we literally cannot damage Asriel" thing, with the only difference being that you just use the code as evidence....

Frisk deals 1 damage to Undyne when they're holding back, sure, but they still dealt a form of damage, implying that they're comparable.

Except Undyne does not want to hurt you either. Frisk, having no intent to fight Undyne, inflicts minimal damage on holding back Undyne, not full power. And this is the middle of True Pacifist, while Asriel's fight is literally in the end.

This also happens in the Photoshop Flowey fight, where Frisk, despite being far weaker, could still deal minimal damage to him, implying they weren't that far off at the moment.

This is literally part of the reasoning of why I want Frisk have 2-B AP lmao

But with Asriel/MTT? Both of these bosses, when Frisk fought them with the amount of DT they had in the respective fights, were completely immune to their blows.

I don't think you can go in circles too much around this without using headcanon as the main proxy of your argument, with stuff like "but Asriel's fight is different!" (which is impossible to prove).

It is, though. Frisk dealing minimal damage on Undyne, who did not want to hurt you too, due to having no intent to fight her. With Asriel, it is even more evident by both the narrative and SAVE option not going away, unlike the three other buttons. This is undeniable that Frisk wanted to SAVE Asriel more than anything.

This is a false equivalence. If you check the Player's profile, it does not just say "they have comparable DT to Chara", it literally says that they're the source of Chara's power.

Okay, although they get such power only by the end of Genocide yet they do not have "Varies" but straight up 2-B, but that's irrelevant to the discussion I guess.

Plus Chara/Player have Immeasurable speed because the latter being implied to be an entity on Asriel's level, as both can use the TRUE RESET, so it's more than logical they scale in also speed, it'd be silly af otherwise.

You give Player and Chara Immeasurable Speed due to being able to use True Reset so they "must scale" to Asriel, but not Frisk a comparable AP to Asriel because they both can use it and are comparable in DT? That's, again, double standards, and Frisk once again has am explanation to why they cannot damage Asriel specifically in that fight.

TLDR the Player has a statment implying that they have to be comparable to Asriel to some degree + they scale to Chara's feat, not to Asriel's stuff + they lack the contradiction that Frisk has.

Contradiction is explained, and again you can't have your cake and eat it.

This entire section proves you didn't read the scans/blogs used for the justification:

• Possession and Breaking the Fourth Wall (Took control of Frisk through the Genocide run, as shown with the text recognizing Frisk as Chara unlike in the other Routes, Flowey instantly recognizing them as Chara despite having a different appearance and other big changes in personality than Frisk's that other monsters notice. Despite said control can be broken if the Player does not collaborate with them in their guidance, Chara will still take full control of Frisk at the end of a True Pacifist completed after a Genocide run[5])

I've bolded the most important evidence, as the blog that was linked shows also other major showings of Chara possessing Frisk (eg. them stepping on Papyrus' puzzle without our input, them walking towards Monster Kid on their own, or also them walking towards Sans on their own at the end of Genocide, all the dialogue changes, etc.)

These are all actions that Frisk does not do on their own in the Neutral/Pacifist, implying that is Chara's doing.

I said that I agree that Chara possesses Frisk, but only to some extent (like not solving Papyrus puzzles, making Flowey fear, stepping forward after Sans warns us), and definitely not in battles, besides after Sans's second hit. This is, again, implied by lack of "9999999..." damage before Sans' second hit, and Sans being unable to dodge the second hit despite easily doing so with any other attacks, even if we break rules, know exactly where Sans is via RESETs, or even if he falls asleep.

Also, if it was all Chara, why do they imply Player had helped too (should've added to OP ngl)?

• You.
• With your guidance.
• I realized the purpose of my reincarnation.
• Power.
• Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong.
• HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV.
• Every time a number increases, that feeling...
• That's me.
• "Chara."

Meh, good enough.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, without any equipment and at LV 1 they have 0 ATK & DEF. At True Pacifist you must have LV 1 and you can fight Asriel without any equipment whatsoever.

Irrelevant af because these are the stats Frisk has with minimal DT, they obviously vary depending on the opponent.

The problem here: I did imply that I agree that Frisk cannot damage Asriel because the latter is too durable. However, the reason is that they don't want to harm him, hence why he is so durable to Frisk. It's like if you hit a person with no effort, they will be "too durable" for you too...
Also, your arguments are honestly the same as "we literally cannot damage Asriel" thing, with the only difference being that you just use the code as evidence....

Because there's literally 0 evidence of Frisk being able to harm Asriel if they actually wanted to. Everything in the game points at Asriel just being too durable, which you very conveniently ignore for this assumption of yours that has no basis outside "trust me bro".

And yes I use code because it happens the same for Mettaton, unless you wanna argue that Frisk was holding back also against him (something I've already disproven).

Except Undyne does not want to hurt you either. Frisk, having no intent to fight Undyne, inflicts minimal damage on holding back Undyne, not full power. And this is the middle of True Pacifist, while Asriel's fight is literally in the end.

Literally none of this matters. Frisk has showcased to still be capable of harming opponents while holding back if they're still within the capability of doing so.

This still doesn't happen with Asriel.

This is literally part of the reasoning of why I want Frisk have 2-B AP lmao

Which actually just damages your point.

It is, though. Frisk dealing minimal damage on Undyne, who did not want to hurt you too, due to having no intent to fight her. With Asriel, it is even more evident by both the narrative and SAVE option not going away, unlike the three other buttons. This is undeniable that Frisk wanted to SAVE Asriel more than anything.

An assumption is still that, an assumption. You can't prove it because there's literally 0 evidence, you keep saying "but narrative, but pacifism!" when I've proved with the Undyne thing that it's not relevant, and Frisk would've dealt some kind of damage if they were relevant to him AP wise.

Frisk can still save Asriel without having 2-B AP, this isn't a rebuttal at all.

You give Player and Chara Immeasurable Speed due to being able to use True Reset so they "must scale" to Asriel, but not Frisk a comparable AP to Asriel because they both can use it and are comparable in DT? That's, again, double standards, and Frisk once again has am explanation to why they cannot damage Asriel specifically in that fight.

It's not double standards, it's Occam's Razor. Especially when Asriel planned to reach Chara's goal through getting the power of the 7 SOULs, which is just another reason to treat them as parallels. Would be weird if Asriel is infinitely faster just because.

Contradiction is explained, and again you can't have your cake and eat it.

Nah, you didn't. I've given you the explanation using actual facts from the game itself, you instead use fanfiction.

I said that I agree that Chara possesses Frisk, but only to some extent (like not solving Papyrus puzzles, making Flowey fear, stepping forward after Sans warns us), and definitely not in battles, besides after Sans's second hit. This is, again, implied by lack of "9999999..." damage before Sans' second hit, and Sans being unable to dodge the second hit despite easily doing so with any other attacks, even if we break rules, know exactly where Sans is via RESETs, or even if he falls asleep.

This literally doesn't refute anything of the justification I've linked above. At least you could make an effort to at read the stuff I liked there.

Also, if it was all Chara, why do they imply Player had helped too (should've added to OP ngl)?

It's said in the justification for possession in the second part. Chara guides the Player through the Genocide, for example saying how many monsters are left to kill. It's a mutual cooperation, not Chara relying on us.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Irrelevant af because these are the stats Frisk has with minimal DT, they obviously vary depending on the opponent.

Them both being 0 and 0 is not irrelevant, it literally means that their AP and Durability is equal even if amped.

Because there's literally 0 evidence of Frisk being able to harm Asriel if they actually wanted to.

For who did I write this yappery:

• Frisk’s Attack Potency is dependent on Determination, just as the profile says:

Determination also links to Statistics Amplification, meaning that Frisk’s attack potency (and other stats) amplifies with Determination.

• Frisk’s Peak Determination is comparable to Asriel’s in his God of Hyperdeath form, given that the person who has most Determination gains control over timeline and SAVE/RESET system with Asriel being unable to use TRUE RESET and needing to defeat Frisk in order to get control over the timeline. As supportive, Frisk is able to survive Asriel’s attacks despite the latter having infinite ATK, and Frisk is even able to survive one of Asriel’s strongest attacks (as accepted on profile) solely due to Determination.
• This would make the gap between Peak Determination Frisk and Asriel’s Determination far less than Frisk with Immense Determination (who is obviously below Peak Determination self in Determination) and Photoshop Flowey (who is obviously below God of Hyperdeath self in Determination) with Immense DT Frisk being able to harm Photoshop Flowey, who took control over the timeline.
• Finally, Peak DT Frisk can survive Asriel’s attacks, as I showed before, even with having ATK and DEF at 0, making their AP and Durability equal, solely due to Determination.

(TL;DR: Photshop Flowey is immensely superior in determination to a Immense Determination Frisk yet Frisk can still inflict damage on Flowey, meanwhile Asriel and Peak DT Frisk had comparable in Determination, meaning that Frisk should be able to damage Asriel too. Peak DT Frisk can also survive Asriel’s attacks due to solely determination and their ATK and DEF is equal, making AP comparable to Durability)

Determination is also basically a UES, it would make no sense for only Durability to be amped.

Everything in the game points at Asriel just being too durable,

Yes, during the specific battle in the end of True Pacifist, which I explained why. Again: you will be too durable for me too if I make my punch while very strongly holding back.

which you very conveniently ignore for this assumption of yours that has no basis outside "trust me bro".

No basis..? I literally wrote a whole essay for a proof.

And yes I use code because it happens the same for Mettaton, unless you wanna argue that Frisk was holding back also against him (something I've already disproven).

Mettaton is irrelevant for this discussion, as him being too durable applies to literally any route, unlike Asriel.

Code also does not necessarily say the context behind its stats, like Asriel's ATK being 8 in code despite being infinite in the game, and same applies to many other monsters like Papyrus and Toriel. The reason is that they're holding back, etc., but code doesn't say WHY it has such stats, you have to logically deduce it yourself, not just blindly follow it.

Literally none of this matters. Frisk has showcased to still be capable of harming opponents while holding back if they're still within the capability of doing so. This still doesn't happen with Asriel.

Harming opponents that are holding back too. Lmfao. You just dismissed my entire point atp.

Which actually just damages your point.

No?

An assumption is still that, an assumption. You can't prove it because there's literally 0 evidence, you keep saying "but narrative, but pacifism!" when I've proved with the Undyne thing that it's not relevant, and Frisk would've dealt some kind of damage if they were relevant to him AP wise.

Again, since you did not read: Frisk, while going at full force without any intent to hurt, deals 1 DMG to Undyne while she holds back a ton. You simply ignore the evidence I provided.

Frisk can still save Asriel without having 2-B AP, this isn't a rebuttal at all.

The point was that everything, both narrative, hints from the game and the mechanics in battle, show that Frisk wanted to SAVE Asriel, not harm him at all. Hence why they couldn't damage Asriel despite logically scaling to 2-B.

It's not double standards, it's Occam's Razor. Especially when Asriel planned to reach Chara's goal through getting the power of the 7 SOULs, which is just another reason to treat them as parallels. Would be weird if Asriel is infinitely faster just because.

And Asriel & Peak DT Frisk are shown as parallels fighting over TRUE RESET too, your point? Also planning to reach Chara's goal is literally irrelevant to speed.

Nah, you didn't. I've given you the explanation using actual facts from the game itself, you instead use fanfiction.

I used deductive reasoning via mechanics from the game*

This literally doesn't refute anything of the justification I've linked above. At least you could make an effort to at read the stuff I liked there.

It's said in the justification for possession in the second part. Chara guides the Player through the Genocide, for example saying how many monsters are left to kill. It's a mutual cooperation, not Chara relying on us.

I read. Again, Chara does possess Frisk to some extent, but not entirely. Also, if you concede on Chara guiding the Player by saying how many monsters are left to kill, you literally admit that it is not Chara who kills them, as otherwise there is no reason to say Player anything as they fully possess Frisk's body.

Moreover, aborting Genocide is a thing. Which would make no sense if Chara had a full control over Frisk's body, since their goal is whatever happens on Genocide and probably post-Genocide Pacifist, NOT a neutral route. Also why would Player feel anything after LV increases if it literally Chara who kills everybody?

Yet again, you simply ignored all of evidence I gave with Sans dodging and 999999 damage. Could you please take some time and just read?

 

[Bernkastelll]

​

Sans​

Now, to something very simple. I made this calc that got accepted, so Sans’ Range should change from Hundreds of Meters to Kilometers with Teleportation.

I agree with Sans revision, I disagree with Frisk because there's nothing to suggest that she has 2-B AP

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I agree with Sans revision, I disagree with Frisk because there's nothing to suggest that she has 2-B AP

Uhhh, I literally wrote the entire essay to why Frisk should have 2-B AP if they did not hold back? But okay.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Them both being 0 and 0 is not irrelevant, it literally means that their AP and Durability is equal even if amped.

That one showing says otherwise I fear.

Determination is also basically a UES

No.

Yes, during the specific battle in the end of True Pacifist, which I explained why. Again: you will be too durable for me too if I make my punch while very strongly holding back.

Repeating yourself doesn't help.

Mettaton is irrelevant for this discussion, as him being too durable applies to literally any route, unlike Asriel.

In which Route can we damage Asriel?

Code also does not necessarily say the context behind its stats, like Asriel's ATK being 8 in code despite being infinite in the game, and same applies to many other monsters like Papyrus and Toriel. The reason is that they're holding back, etc., but code doesn't say WHY it has such stats, you have to logically deduce it yourself, not just blindly follow it.

This doesn't mean anything. The Data stats say the amount of Attack/Defense the monsters have COMPARED TO FRISK AT THE MOMENT, as that's important for damage calculation.

Hence why for example Toriel is lower than Asgore (due to the latter not holding back unlike her).

Your point is really moot here lmao.

Again, since you did not read: Frisk, while going at full force without any intent to hurt, deals 1 DMG to Undyne while she holds back a ton. You simply ignore the evidence I provided.

Theresa literally no proof that Undyne would be immune to our attacks if she was serious at that time.

The point was that everything, both narrative, hints from the game and the mechanics in battle, show that Frisk wanted to SAVE Asriel, not harm him at all. Hence why they couldn't damage Asriel despite logically scaling to 2-B.

Nobody cares about narrative. We care about feats and statements.

I read. Again, Chara does possess Frisk to some extent, but not entirely. Also, if you concede on Chara guiding the Player by saying how many monsters are left to kill, you literally admit that it is not Chara who kills them, as otherwise there is no reason to say Player anything as they fully possess Frisk's body.

This still isn't a reason to get rid of the key. They have influence over Frisk over the course of the whole route, the end.

I used deductive reasoning via mechanics from the game*

Spamming "But Narrative!" and "Mettaton isn't relevant" isn't that.

 

[Duragoji123]

I agree with the Sans addition.

Neutral to everything else

 

[Bernkastelll]

Uhhh, I literally wrote the entire essay to why Frisk should have 2-B AP if they did not hold back? But okay.

But I don't think I agree with the justification, her DT hasn't shown that her attack potency reaches these levels, I think that we are going to walk through the realm of assumptions if we are going to justify that she should have 2-B AP cuz of her peak determination surpassing even the ones like Asriel, stuff like Speed and Durability is fine because these are clear feats, AP isn't, because we can't harm Asriel and I don't think your explanation is sufficient, as I said, this is like walking through the realm of assumptions

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That one showing says otherwise I fear.

Wut

No.

Yes

Repeating yourself doesn't help.

Not my fault that your counter-arguments either do not address or do not refute my points at all.

In which Route can we damage Asriel?

In no route we are not holding back against Asriel, hence I used a logical reasoning to prove 2-B AP. Indirect proofs exist.

This doesn't mean anything. The Data stats say the amount of Attack/Defense the monsters have COMPARED TO FRISK AT THE MOMENT, as that's important for damage calculation.

Exactly, lol. Thanks for conceding.

Hence why for example Toriel is lower than Asgore (due to the latter not holding back unlike her).

Yes

Theresa literally no proof that Undyne would be immune to our attacks if she was serious at that time.

And? It still shows that the damage goes so far as it goes onto MINIMAL damage against a monster who HOLDS BACK, that's how intent not to hurt lowers AP.

Nobody cares about narrative.

...

We care about feats and statements.

I did use both feats and statements though.

This still isn't a reason to get rid of the key. They have influence over Frisk over the course of the whole route, the end.

Okay, now you have proven yourself not to be reading the OP:

(Note: Chara does indeed take some control over Frisk before that, but on a weaker level and not in battles)

So, Chara still keeps their possessing Frisk key, but the reasoning for stats should be the following:

• Attack Potency: At least City-Block level (One-shoted Asgore)
• Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Managed to kill Sans, Asgore and Flowey without even giving them a chance to react)

Spamming "But Narrative!" and "Mettaton isn't relevant" isn't that.

But Mettaton is literally the false equivalance and thus not relevant. Narrative plays a part deductive reasoning, and use deductive reasoning for scaling is correct.

But I don't think I agree with the justification, her DT hasn't shown that her attack potency reaches these levels, I think that we are going to walk through the realm of assumptions if we are going to justify that she should have 2-B AP cuz of her peak determination surpassing even the ones like Asriel, stuff like Speed and Durability is fine because these are clear feats, AP isn't, because we can't harm Asriel and I don't think your explanation is sufficient, as I said, this is like walking through the realm of assumptions

But I'm not assuming, I'm relying on verse mechanics & statements, as well as Frisk's feats. Also "Speed and Durability is fine because these are clear feats" - what? Where did Player & Chara show Immeasurable speed feats? Or Player 2-B durability feat? They both derive from the same reasoning I used for Frisk's AP.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I believe one could argue that Asriel takes no damage due to the Amalgamates' Invulnerability? They're kinda just monsters with DT, afterall.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes

Reaper Bird has literally 9 ATK and 9999 DEF, showing that DT doesn't amp all stats equally.

In no route we are not holding back against Asriel, hence I used a logical reasoning to prove 2-B AP. Indirect proofs exist.

Sounds like a "there's no proof but trust me bro!" moment, come the **** on.

And? It still shows that the damage goes so far as it goes onto MINIMAL damage against a monster who HOLDS BACK, that's how intent not to hurt lowers AP.

Both are holding back then. So this essentially proves nothing worth for this argument, congrats.

I did use both feats and statements though.

Can't wait for the super explicit feat of Frisk harming a 2-B.

But Mettaton is literally the false equivalance and thus not relevant. Narrative plays a part deductive reasoning, and use deductive reasoning for scaling is correct.

Why wouldn't he be relevant? Both him and Asriel have 9999 in data and both can't be harmed by Frisk. There's no "narrative" that can justify this.

You can't just dodge the entire point by using a narrative that just isn't proved.

I'm relying on verse mechanics & statements

What statement lmfao?

Also "Speed and Durability is fine because these are clear feats" - what? Where did Player & Chara show Immeasurable speed feats? Or Player 2-B durability feat? They both derive from the same reasoning I used for Frisk's AP.

Frisk had clear contradiction. These two not.

I believe one could argue that Asriel takes no damage due to the Amalgamates' Invulnerability? They're kinda just monsters with DT, afterall.
His no-sell is also pretty weird. Miss appears like a dozen or so times, compared to the single time it appears with Box Mettaton.

This is genuinely a shit argument, no offense.

Undyne is also a monster with DT and yet she still takes damage, and the Amalgamates invulnerability works extremely differently than MTT's. They don't even say MISS, they display an error/absorbed text, and their HP bar expands to show that they've absorbed damage. Asriel's HP bar doesn't increase on the other hand.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Frisk had clear contradiction. These two not.

It does create a precedent, though. That DT doesn't really empower everything at once or something.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Reaper Bird has literally 9 ATK and 9999 DEF, showing that DT doesn't amp all stats equally.

Proof their stats would be equal without DT?

Sounds like a "there's no proof but trust me bro!" moment, come the **** on.

My argument was not even about damaging Asriel in the first place, the **** are you on

Both are holding back then. So this essentially proves nothing worth for this argument, congrats.

No? Inflicting MINIMUM to a guy who HOLDS BACK due to not wanting to harm them despite going AT FULL FORCE (Undyne's statement) is a pretty cut & clear proof that lack of intent reduces your AP MASSIVELY.

Can't wait for the super explicit feat of Frisk harming a 2-B.

Can't wait for the super explicit feat of Chara and Player outrunning time itself too!

Why wouldn't he be relevant? Both him and Asriel have 9999 in data and both can't be harmed by Frisk. There's no "narrative" that can justify this.

MTT is invlunurable regardless of Route, Frisk cannot possibly lack intent to harm him on NO MERCY or such. Asriel is invulnurable only on True Pacifist, where you lack intact to harm anyone, and does not appear on any other route. Do 2+2.
Also, by the same logic Papyrus has 8 ATK and Asriel has 8 ATK in code. Papyrus is as strong as Asriel because code is the only shit that matters!

You can't just dodge the entire point by using a narrative that just isn't proved.

I did not use a narrative as a sole evidence.

What statement lmfao?

Read the OP?

Frisk had clear contradiction. These two not.

Contradiction that was already explained.

This is genuinely a shit argument, no offense.

Undyne is also a monster with DT and yet she still takes damage, and the Amalgamates invulnerability works extremely differently than MTT's. They don't even say MISS, they display an error/absorbed text, and their HP bar expands to show that they've absorbed damage.

Why are Amalgametes get no damage then, if people with far superior DT can be damaged? Maybe because Frisk does not want to harm them? Or you have better explanation?

Asriel's HP bar doesn't increase on the other hand.

You can't really expand infinity now can you.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It does create a precedent, though. That DT doesn't really empower everything at once or something.

Yeah, either nuke Chara and Player's stats that they don't have comparable feats to, or just accept that Frisk does indeed have 2-B AP and all of counter-arguments are just nit-picking for the sake of disagreeing, that do not really disapprove the evidence given.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It does create a precedent, though. That DT doesn't really empower everything at once or something.

Frisk seems to be more the exception here to be fair.

Proof their stats would be equal without DT?

Them having 0 ATK/DEF without anything.

No? Inflicting MINIMUM to a guy who HOLDS BACK due to not wanting to harm them despite going AT FULL FORCE (Undyne's statement) is a pretty cut & clear proof that lack of intent reduces your AP MASSIVELY.

Frisk going at full force...? It's literally said it was a fake attack, just stop.

MTT is invlunurable regardless of Route, Frisk cannot possibly lack intent to harm him on NO MERCY or such. Asriel is invulnurable only on True Pacifist, where you lack intact to harm anyone, and does not appear on any other route. Do 2+2.

Frisk can harm people in True Pacifist... Otherwise Asgore can't be beaten.

Also, by the same logic Papyrus has 8 ATK and Asriel has 8 ATK in code. Papyrus is as strong as Asriel because code is the only shit that matters!

I didn't say it, I only used as evidence on why Frisk can't harm Asriel. I never said that check stats are canon, just that they can be used to explain what's going on in canon. There's a difference.

Why are Amalgametes get no damage then, if people with far superior DT can be damaged?

It's literally explained in their physiology page why.

You can't really expand infinity now can you.

There's no proof Asriel has infinite HP.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

No? Inflicting MINIMUM to a guy who HOLDS BACK due to not wanting to harm them despite going AT FULL FORCE (Undyne's statement) is a pretty cut & clear proof that lack of intent reduces your AP MASSIVELY.

This confirms that Frisk is actually really weak, and that the only reason they can harm monster is cause of their weakness to intent and stuff fr

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Them having 0 ATK/DEF without anything.

Proof?

Frisk going at full force...? It's literally said it was a fake attack, just stop.

• What.
• That's the best you can manage?
• Even attacking at full force...
• You just can't muster any intent to hurt me, huh?

Hmmmm, right

Frisk can harm people in True Pacifist... Otherwise Asgore can't be beaten.

Not after Asgore. Undyne thing is already explained by me, Amalgametes literally are invulnerable

I didn't say it, I only used as evidence on why Frisk can't harm Asriel. I never said that check stats are canon, just that they can be used to explain what's going on in canon. There's a difference.

Check stats never explain why they’re so, like Glad Dummy has -40 DEF, etc. You just should use your brains instead of blindly following them.

It's literally explained in their physiology page why.

It does not exactly say why

There's no proof Asriel has infinite HP.

Nvm that then

This confirms that Frisk is actually really weak, and that the only reason they can harm monster is cause of their weakness to intent and stuff fr

W, Frisk is 11-C fr

 

[StrymULTRA]

Proof?

At LV 1 at the very start of the game Frisk start with these stats, with no DT involved.

Hmmmm, right

Which holds more priority? A character who is known to exaggerate basically anything when they're hyped up, or the game itself?

Not after Asgore.

You can still fight Photoshop Flowey after Asgore in a Pacifist lol.

Undyne thing is already explained by me

Whatever helps you sleeping at night.

Check stats never explain why they’re so

The **** are you talking about? Check stats are how strong the monsters are in lore, data stats only are to balance them compared to Frisk in the story.

It does not exactly say why

• Invulnerability, Healing and Enhanced Absorption: Amalgamates do not have a stable body due to it being unable to sustain DETERMINATION, making them not solid and able to absorb[7] other beings within themselves. They have also shown to absorb damage, with their HP bar increasing instead of decreasing when hit.

It's radically so different compared to Asriel and MTT that I hope I don't even need to explain.

Yeah, either nuke Chara and Player's stats that they don't have comparable feats to, or just accept that Frisk does indeed have 2-B AP and all of counter-arguments are just nit-picking for the sake of disagreeing, that do not really disapprove the evidence given.

Btw there's indeed evidence. The Player can still perceive the events of all of UT, including Asriel and Frisk's fight. Either you argue that Frisk is infinitely faster than whatever is controlling them, or the latter scales.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Which holds more priority? A character who is known to exaggerate basically anything when they're hyped up, or the game itself?

The same thing happens if you actually attack using the FIGHT Button tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

The same thing happens if you actually attack using the FIGHT Button tho

I know that, just that at least the ACT explains what is Frisk doing.

They can't deal the same damage whenever they're serious or holding back, that makes 0 sense.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

diisagree with frisks AP being 2-B

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

At LV 1 at the very start of the game Frisk start with these stats, with no DT involved.

Frisk is not exactly a part of Amalgamate, is he?

Which holds more priority? A character who is known to exaggerate basically anything when they're hyped up, or the game itself?

Same shit happens if you hit seriously.

You can still fight Photoshop Flowey after Asgore in a Pacifist lol.

You know what I meant, stop nitpicking.

The **** are you talking about? Check stats are how strong the monsters are in lore, data stats only are to balance them compared to Frisk in the story.

Data stats are what the monsters stats are in fights for whatever reasons, sometimes it is their own stats, sometimes they are for technicality (Mad Dummy having -40 DEF), and sometimes they are explained by the characters holding back.

• Invulnerability, Healing and Enhanced Absorption: Amalgamates do not have a stable body due to it being unable to sustain DETERMINATION, making them not solid and able to absorb[7] other beings within themselves. They have also shown to absorb damage, with their HP bar increasing instead of decreasing when hit.

It's radically so different compared to Asriel and MTT that I hope I don't even need to explain.

Ok

Btw there's indeed evidence. The Player can still perceive the events of all of UT, including Asriel and Frisk's fight. Either you argue that Frisk is infinitely faster than whatever is controlling them, or the latter scales.

Okay, and why would Chara scale? And why Player’s durability scales to 2-B, if they “never survived 2-B destruction”?

Also, what happened to Chara possession debate

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

diisagree with frisks AP being 2-B

Eh, fine, ig this wiki just hates Frisk

 

[StrymULTRA]

Frisk is not exactly a part of Amalgamate, is he?

How is this relevant now?

Same shit happens if you hit seriously.

Frisk holding back has the same strenght of their serious hits?

Data stats are what the monsters stats are in fights for whatever reasons, sometimes it is their own stats, sometimes they are for technicality (Mad Dummy having -40 DEF), and sometimes they are explained by the characters holding back.

Cool, that never happens with Frisk however. The monsters stats are what change, not Frisk's.

Okay, and why would Chara scale?

Because they the the Player's power as source.

And why Player’s durability scales to 2-B, if they “never survived 2-B destruction”?

They're the same as Chara.

Also, what happened to Chara possession debate

I forgot the parts where the game's narration changes to using Chara's 1st person instead of Frisk's 3rd person, you didn't address it.

 

[Homie890]

W, Frisk is 11-C fr

nah,frisk is 12-C

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

How is this relevant now?

You used that Amalgametes have 9 ATK and 9999 DEF as an evidence that DT does not amo everything equally. Now, prove that Amalgametes would have equal stats if not for Determination. Using Frisk as example is incorrect, they’re not even a monster in the first place.

Frisk holding back has the same strenght of their serious hits?

It’s not “serious”, it’s full force. If you do 2+2, it’s easy to understand that the point is simply that Frisk has no intent to harm Undyne to the point their full force attacks are same as fake ones, that’s how pacifist faced they are. Unless you have a better explanation.
Also, to add on my previous points, Frisk becomes so pacifist that they refuse to say bad things even if Player makes Frisk do that.

Cool, that never happens with Frisk however. The monsters stats are what change, not Frisk's.

Okay? This was never my point that Frisk’s stats change in-code, what a strawman.

Because they the the Player's power as source.

Genuinely what

They're the same as Chara.

No? Being a power source of Chara’s would scale only in AP, not in Durability.

I forgot the parts where the game's narration changes to using Chara's 1st person instead of Frisk's 3rd person, you didn't address it.

My point was literally that Chara indeed does possess Frisk on Genocide Route, but they only fully do so after Sans’ second hit (which is why the damage is always 999999+ and it does not need Player’s input to kill both Sans and Asgore). This is why the kill count is needed and why Chara “guides” player — Player does everything before landing Sans’ second hit. And this also explains why monsters can be spared during the Genocide Route.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You used that Amalgametes have 9 ATK and 9999 DEF as an evidence that DT does not amo everything equally. Now, prove that Amalgametes would have equal stats if not for Determination. Using Frisk as example is incorrect, they’re not even a monster in the first place.

You're now trying to argue random things out of desperation.

Yes, I used it to prove that DT doesn't always increase everything, and Frisk's stats without it are both 0, the Amalgamates' stats without it don't matter here.

It’s not “serious”, it’s full force.

Unreliable statement.

If you do 2+2, it’s easy to understand that the point is simply that Frisk has no intent to harm Undyne to the point their full force attacks are same as fake ones, that’s how pacifist faced they are.

This is just so stupid that I don't comprehend how could you ever reach this intepretation. Especially given that after the date Frisk canonically can harm Asgore.

Genuinely what

Multiverse level (Presumably able to do a TRUE RESET, and with the entity's Determination, Chara was able to reach the absolute. Implied to being the one manipulating the Deltarune world as well, with it containing 3 timelines, as the Player is able to copy/overwrite or also delete said timelines one per time)

My point was literally that Chara indeed does possess Frisk on Genocide Route, but they only fully do so after Sans’ second hit (which is why the damage is always 999999+ and it does not need Player’s input to kill both Sans and Asgore). This is why the kill count is needed and why Chara “guides” player — Player does everything before landing Sans’ second hit. And this also explains why monsters can be spared during the Genocide Route.

• Possession and Breaking the Fourth Wall (Took control of Frisk through the Genocide run, as shown with the text recognizing Frisk as Chara unlike in the other Routes, Flowey instantly recognizing them as Chara despite having a different appearance and other big changes in personality than Frisk's that other monsters notice. Despite said control can be broken if the Player does not collaborate with them in their guidance, Chara will still take full control of Frisk at the end of a True Pacifist completed after a Genocide run[5])

It's already explained in the bolded part.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Frisk (Player in this case Ig) does do most of the fighting in the Genocide Route, Chara mostly just watches us and sometimes commentates.

 

[Roachman40]

disagree with the frisk thing, sans thing is fine, leaning towards disagree on the chara possession thing

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You're now trying to argue random things out of desperation.

No? It’s you who used Frisk as example although idk why even.

Yes, I used it to prove that DT doesn't always increase everything, and Frisk's stats without it are both 0, the Amalgamates' stats without it don't matter here.

To prove that DT does not amp everything equally you would need to show that a user had same stats but only DEF increased but ATK didn’t. Amalgametes’ case does not prove anything because:
1) It is literally a bunch of monsters fused in one;
2) Those monsters could simply have their DEF far higher than ATK, see Jerry.

Unreliable statement.

So Undyne is unreliable now huh.

This is just so stupid that I don't comprehend how could you ever reach this intepretation. Especially given that after the date Frisk canonically can harm Asgore.

Cuz here they need to kill him. They can’t befriend him or anything, Mercy button is bye-bye. Meanwhile they see Undyne as a friend, and Asriel the one they want to SAVE.
Also, what is your interpretation then, if not it?

Multiverse level (Presumably able to do a TRUE RESET, and with the entity's Determination, Chara was able to reach the absolute. Implied to being the one manipulating the Deltarune world as well, with it containing 3 timelines, as the Player is able to copy/overwrite or also delete said timelines one per time)

Cool, this does not scale in speed.

Possession and Breaking the Fourth Wall (Took control of Frisk through the Genocide run, as shown with the text recognizing Frisk as Chara unlike in the other Routes, Flowey instantly recognizing them as Chara despite having a different appearance and other big changes in personality than Frisk's that other monsters notice. Despite said control can be broken if the Player does not collaborate with them in their guidance, Chara will still take full control of Frisk at the end of a True Pacifist completed after a Genocide run[5])

Why do links lead to tumbrl theories lmao
Anyways, the point is, if it is Chara who FULLY possesses Frisk, then sparing them would literally be impossible, since it’s Chara who in-lore does such actions, and there is no reason for them wanting to spare monsters before Genocide Route. And again, 999999+ ATK thing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Frisk (Player in this case Ig) does do most of the fighting in the Genocide Route, Chara mostly just watches us and sometimes commentates.

Tbh Chara's 2nd key mostly exist just to not ignore their existence before the ending of Genocide, as they indeed are relevant here.

Nothing says that the Player has no agency, just that they are relevant enough to take actions sometimes, which is showcased even before the Sans fight-

Though I can agree that the Player being able to abort Genocide should be added as a weakness.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Frisk (Player in this case Ig) does do most of the fighting in the Genocide Route, Chara mostly just watches us and sometimes commentates.

Yeah that’s my proposal

 

[StrymULTRA]

To prove that DT does not amp everything equally you would need to show that a user had same stats but only DEF increased but ATK didn’t. Amalgametes’ case does not prove anything because:
1) It is literally a bunch of monsters fused in one;
2) Those monsters could simply have their DEF far higher than ATK, see Jerry.

K.

So Undyne is unreliable now huh.

Pretty much.

Also, what is your interpretation then, if not it?

Pretty much this, given that Frisk has showcased no objective proofs of them being able to harm Asriel if they want to. Using Undyne here isn't evidence, as the case is more similar to MTT's, given both the text and how the "damage" is processed by these bosses.

Cool, this does not scale in speed.

Chara is meant to be a representation of us lmao, unless you wanna argue that the Player perceives a parallel of them as slow asf.

Why do links lead to tumbrl theories lmao

It's not a Tumblr theory, it's a list of evidence.

You're more than welcome to debunk it however.

 

[ShionAH]

Sorry Orange, I disagree with the other stuff Frisk being a stonewall makes more sense to me

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Pretty much.

So she is just lying. Cool. That was the point of Toby Fox adding this dialogue to the game, indeed.
Yeah average powerscaling ahh moment

Pretty much this, given that Frisk has showcased no objective proofs of them being able to harm Asriel if they want to.

And what about determination gap between Asriel and Frisk being far smaller than Photoshop Flowey and Immense DT Frisk? You never actually addressed that.

Using Undyne here isn't evidence, as the case is more similar to MTT's, given both the text and how the "damage" is processed by these bosses.

I took that in the account though. I always said that Asriel was indeed to durable for us in that fight, I simply gave a reasoning to why that happens despite Frisk being supposedly able to harm Asriel via reasoning I gave before that.

Chara is meant to be a representation of us lmao, unless you wanna argue that the Player perceives a parallel of them as slow asf.

And Frisk is supposed to be the parallel of Asriel

It's not a Tumblr theory, it's a list of evidence.

You're more than welcome to debunk it however.

I already did pretty much above. Sans IA, 999999+ damage, the possibility of abort, etc. etc. — this all makes sense if Chara possesses Frisk only to some extent and not fully, and definitely not in battles.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Sorry Orange, I disagree with the other stuff Frisk being a stonewall makes more sense to me

RIP

Eh, sounds like Sans thing is the only thing that’ll get accepted
One more reason to scale UT off-site instead of trying to do anything here ig

 

[StrymULTRA]

So she is just lying. Cool. That was the point of Toby Fox adding this dialogue to the game, indeed.

Not lying, she was just wrong here.

And what about determination gap between Asriel and Frisk being far smaller than Photoshop Flowey and Immense DT Frisk? You never actually addressed that.

There's 0 proof of it outside durability. Photoshop Flowey still takes damage, Asriel not even that.

I took that in the account though. I always said that Asriel was indeed to durable for us in that fight, I simply gave a reasoning to why that happens despite Frisk being supposedly able to harm Asriel via reasoning I gave before that.

You're just being a broken disc at this point.

And Frisk is supposed to be the parallel of Asriel

LMAO
M
A
O

I already did pretty much above. Sans IA, 999999+ damage, the possibility of abort, etc. etc. — this all makes sense if Chara possesses Frisk only to some extent and not fully, and definitely not in battles.

I put the Tumblr links only because on their own they give a great deal of evidence of Chara's influence across the Genocide, as it's not even fanon at this point, it's something that factually does happen here.

In the justification is even said that the Player can abort the genocide and interrupt the deal with Chara anytime. A thing in their weakness would do the job though.