Undertale 9-A calc doesn't work.

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[RethPo]

Ive messaged some of the staff. Oh and one more thing. Should sans still be 9-B with magic? Since sans uses soul poison and soul attacks were accepted as a form of dura neg again iirc.
9-B with magic doesnt really make sense anyway since monsters attacks are entirely based around magic. His magical attacks being that level would simply make his ap wall level and his attack stats would be listed as like, 99 ingame.

 

[Starter_Pack]

My eyes kinda glazed over halfway through with all of the walls of text, but I pushed through reading through all of this.

I can see and agree with the Undertale downgrades, as a lot of it makes a lot of sense ig. Particularly since 9-A was based off of one feat, and marking it as, at the very least, an outlier seems to be well and good considering the context of the situation.

Also, Sans' magic should scale to Flowey at the least, since he directly blocked Flowey's attack as he tried to kill Frisk.

 

[RethPo]

Mmmm... dunno about sans magic scaling to flowey if it was his and not papyus'. Flowey had the six souls at that point which is way above everyone and was throwing casual attacks.

 

[Starter_Pack]

It is hard to tell right there, especially since both Sans and Papyrus spoke encouraging words after that attack, something which every one of the characters were doing after blocking Flowey's attacks.

 

[Armorchompy]

Sans and Papyrus actually have different sprites for their bones. I believe Sans's bone sprite is shown blocking one of Flowey's attacks.

 

[Armorchompy]

Nevermind, Papyrus' bone is what blocks the attack.

 

[RethPo]

Sooo this calc still needs looking at mostly for the math at least since it should makes frisk at their weakest, ruins and snowdin monsters low end wall level.

How do you guys feel about monsters durability (besides undyne the undying and above) varying down to 10-C against genocidal bloodlust scaling to muffets -800 dura? Low end monsters could probably vary down to 10-C against bloodlust or when refusing to fight in both ap and dura since they are still pretty far below the likes of hotlands monsters (who would scale to explosives they use).

 

[Theuser789]

Monters having negative stats like -800 and all were patched in the 2016 patch, Muffet doesn't have check doesn't show that anymore even in Genocide

 

[RethPo]

I just checked and youre right. And papyrus on genocide goes down to 3 (which would be around ruins monsters tier) while off guard so i guess thats out the window.

One more thing to mention is that floweys lv is treat as power on his profile which should be changed. Lv is just killing intent that just makes you stronger in the face of monsters.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

One more thing to mention is that floweys lv is treat as power on his profile which should be changed. Lv is just killing intent that just makes you stronger in the face of monsters.

LOVE increases your STATs in the game tho

 

[RethPo]

Yeah. Because the only enemies you ever face where those stats matter are monsters. Lv is explicitely just killing intent which has only ever been treat as a monster weakness. Not a power boost. Only determinations done anything like that. Floweys normal attack would just be enough to almost one shot frisk near the start of the game.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

How does it increase DEF tho? Monster attacks don't get weaker with killing intent

 

[RethPo]

They would though. Monsters attacks and physical nature are entirely built on soul magic, expressing themselves and emotion. Even their weapons and armor melt and turn to dust with them. The reason killing intent hurts monsters in the first place is because it becomes easier to distance yourself from them which sans explains. Frisk even uses magical defences like ribbons, tutus and the heart locket which are created by monsters and make it more difficult for them to harm frisk despite the fact they would offer absolutely no decent defences physically.

Basically monsters are weaker the more youre emotionally distant and their attacks would be weaker as well.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[RethPo]

Sooo. Im guessing its safe to change floweys varies with lv and exp thing. His durability would be better off unknown as well since he be killed any monster and one shot by frisk after their fight.

All thats really needed is for this calc to get approved if its been done right and useable and the downgrades should go through. And a bunch of profiles would need to be unlocked as well.

 

[RethPo]

Kay its been approved. So is there anything else to agree on before it gets downgraded?

For summary, all 9-As become 9-B. Sans and glad dummy become 10-B and the likes of snowdrakes mother and jerry probably 10-C. Sans and snowdrake probably lose 9-B (9-a atm) with magic. And flowey doesnt vary via lv and exp or have his raw power justified with that and probably becomes unknown durability like i mentioned above. Need a staff to thumb that though and unlock the locked profiles

Chara
Frisk
Sans
Flowey
Underground

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Wouldn't Sans still be 9-B via the slam attack?

 

[RethPo]

If thats not ignoring durability like his other attacks would then... yeah you could make an argument for it being 9-B via telekinesis

 

[Armorchompy]

You could counter that by saying it's chip damage, but with how high your stats are by then, basically anything would do 1 damage, so I do agree.

 

[RethPo]

I take that as agreement on 9-B for sans telekinesis then. It seems like the downgrades are good to go through then.

@Starter_Pack Since imma guessing youre still here, could you possibly unlock the profiles below? If its safe to make the downgrades or unless theres anything youd wanna bring up.

Chara
Frisk
Sans
Flowey
Underground

 

[Starter_Pack]

I unlocked them. If someone ends up disagreeing with it, I can always revert the changes later.

 

[RethPo]

The downgrades have been made. 9-A being moved to 9-B is generally agreed but any small changes in scaling can be brought up here later or in a later revision. You can lock dem profiles btw.

Oh and sans might need a lotta matchups removed, not sure which ones though so i left them for now

 

[Psychomaster35]

Question about Photoshop Flowey’s scaling now that the downgrades were applied. Would it be possible to assume his sheer size as his base but say hes likely higher than that? Its like this:

Unknown, at least (Whatever tier his size warrants)

 

[Bruhtelho]

Oh and sans might need a lotta matchups removed, not sure which ones though so i left them for now

i'd say most of his matchups are fine, since most of them he won via Soul Manipualtion + Durability Negation gg
and I heard Sans regained his "good" Durability Negation I could be wrong

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Seeing Undertale get nerfed makes me sad but... yeah. This all seems good to me.

 

[Starter_Pack]

The downgrades have been made. 9-A being moved to 9-B is generally agreed but any small changes in scaling can be brought up here later or in a later revision. You can lock dem profiles btw.

Oh and sans might need a lotta matchups removed, not sure which ones though so i left them for now

I have locked the profiles once more. And I'll check the different debates for Sans to see if any of them really need to go.

 

[Psychomaster35]

What about using Pyrope and Tsunderplane’s explosions if they get accepted?

 

[RethPo]

Question about Photoshop Flowey’s scaling now that the downgrades were applied. Would it be possible to assume his sheer size as his base but say hes likely higher than that? Its like this:

Unknown, at least (Whatever tier his size warrants)

I did remove the at least 9-A for now because i wasnt sure if his sheer size would warrant beyond that and the human souls alone were already listed as simply unknown but that could work. Although most of photoshop flowey probably isnt visible on screen. I think a monster fused with a human soul alone would be at least 9-A since they posess the combine power of every monster soul in the underground (which is thousands to possibly 12000 going by mettatons ratings/viewers) and monsters are physically attuned to their souls and all. Plus flowey uses the souls for direct attacks so you could make a pretty good case for 9-A but thats prolly for a different revision.

What about using Pyrope and Tsunderplane’s explosions if they get accepted?

I didnt use any calcs because even though pyropes would be very high end wall level, the battle board sizes are really inconsistent.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Cant you use the soul as a lowball for the measures instead for feats involving the battles?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Tsunderplane's explosion probably can get calced, since we have Tsunderplane to compare to.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Tsunderplane's explosion probably can get calced, since we have Tsunderplane to compare to.

Pretty sure the evaluator was iffy on using Tsunderplane’s height as the measurement, so I’d recommend you use the soul instead