Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

[MeiouHades]

Okay, so you admit that Beerus wouldn't have done it if Trunks didn't travel to the past.

I did not admit that. Don’t misconstrue what I said. I said that specific ACTION is what caused, why Beerus did it or any motivational factors are irrelevant, how do you not see something so obvious? And W
why do you keep ignoring what Whis said

Pretty simple then, Trunks time travel caused a paradox, by causing Beerus' action. The causal chain does not start with Beerus.

The causal chain is complete and utter headcanon that Whis dismisses entirely. Beerus’s action caused it, you’re taking that away from him by constructing headcanon that Trunk’s time traveling should be it’s cause because that’s what motivated Beerus. Whis doesn’t say “Trunks you’re a hypocrite because you caused Beerus to kill Zamasu resulting in another timeline” or anyt even remotely close. He blames Beerus and ONLY Beerus for this.

They all involve an equal amount of assumptions, and an equally non existent amount of evidence.

And the simpler argument is? I’m still waiting. Why did you ignore the questions I posed, numerous times?

 

[MeiouHades]

Would Beerus have done it without Trunks traveling back in time to inform them about Goku Black?

Why is motivation a factor? Where do you get the idea from, when Whis only talks about the action? Not even Goku can break this stonewall

 

[CloverDragon03]

Would Beerus have done it without Trunks traveling back in time to inform them about Goku Black?

There's more to it than that. Trunks traveling back in time creates a split timeline, and then Beerus destroying Zamasu creates yet another split

 

[RedReaper]

Would Beerus have done it without Trunks traveling back in time to inform them about Goku Black?

No, but he wouldn’t have caused the paradox had he used his knowledge on time rules to not interfere and thus not create a secondary new timeline entirely separate from Trunks’ shenanigans.

Your position assumes Beerus was forced to commit these actions as if he couldn’t have just let history play out without causing additional ripples in time.

 

[MeiouHades]

There's more to it than that. Trunks traveling back in time creates a split timeline, and then Beerus destroying Zamasu creates yet another split

He’s arguing that the Beerus split is also due to trunks time travel since that was the motivation for Beerus to kill Zamasu, as if motivation is ever even mentioned anywhere lol

 

[CloverDragon03]

He’s arguing that the Beerus split is also due to trunks time travel since that was the motivation for Beerus to kill Zamasu, as if motivation is ever even mentioned anywhere lol

That's definitely not the case. You can think of it like a flowchart, or like a conditional statement in a program. Beerus killing Zamasu isn't inherently because of Trunks traveling back in time, because there would also be another time in which Trunks traveled back in time but Beerus did not kill Zamasu

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

that ACTION

You're ignoring basic laws of "Action and Consequence". Beerus' change in ACTION is caused as a CONSEQUENCE of TIME TRAVEL. Of course his different action is what caused a divergence in timelines, it's literally what it was different in the timeline, but it would not have happened without Time Travelling. It is NOT a natural action.

 

[Damage3245]

That's definitely not the case. You can think of it like a flowchart, or like a conditional statement in a program. Beerus killing Zamasu isn't inherently because of Trunks traveling back in time, because there would also be another time in which Trunks traveled back in time but Beerus did not kill Zamasu

There would? Why wouldn't Beerus kill Zamasu once Trunks traveled back in time?

 

[CloverDragon03]

There would? Why wouldn't Beerus kill Zamasu once Trunks traveled back in time?

Any number of reasons such as being staunchly opposed to causing changes in time (which Whis actually calls him out on doing in the main timeline), being lazy, etc.

 

[omegabronic]

That's definitely not the case. You can think of it like a flowchart, or like a conditional statement in a program. Beerus killing Zamasu isn't inherently because of Trunks traveling back in time, because there would also be another time in which Trunks traveled back in time but Beerus did not kill Zamasu

Isn't that how goku black came to be?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Isn't that how goku black came to be?

My brother in Christ you sent this twice

I'm not sure, I think Goku Black came about from Trunks just never traveling back in time. Though I don't find it unreasonable to believe that such a timeline would also result in the creation of Goku Black for that timeline. An alternative, though, could be that Goku takes out Zamasu since Beerus doesn't (as an example).

 

[MeiouHades]

That's definitely not the case. You can think of it like a flowchart, or like a conditional statement in a program. Beerus killing Zamasu isn't inherently because of Trunks traveling back in time, because there would also be another time in which Trunks traveled back in time but Beerus did not kill Zamasu

Which is what RedReaper had said, that if Beerus knew the laws of time shenanigans well, he couldn’t have interfered and thus Zamasu wouldn’t be killed, which means another split timeline wouldn’t have been formed even though Trunks did travel back to the past, signifying that Trunks being the motivation Beerus needed is utterly irrelevant here.

 

[Damage3245]

Any number of reasons such as being staunchly opposed to causing changes in time (which Whis actually calls him out on doing in the main timeline), being lazy, etc.

I'm not following you here... Is there anything to suggest that Beerus factually didn't kill Zamasu in other timelines once Trunks came back? It seems to me like you're speculating here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not following you here... Is there anything to suggest that Beerus factually didn't kill Zamasu in other timelines once Trunks came back? It seems to me like you're speculating here.

Whis flat out states that Beerus caused a timeline split by killing Zamasu, meaning there exists a timeline in which Beerus didn't do so

 

[omegabronic]

My brother in Christ you sent this twice

Why does this keep happening to me?

I'm not sure, I think Goku Black came about from Trunks just never traveling back in time.

it can't be thr case since the whole reason zamasu went to steal goku's body was because of him losing to goku when the same went to uni 11 to investigate black

Though I don't find it unreasonable to believe that such a timeline would also result in the creation of Goku Black for that timeline. An alternative, though, could be that Goku takes out Zamasu since Beerus doesn't (as an example).

Didn't beerus said that, in response to trunks saying that his future wouldn't change, that in this case it would because another timeline only gets created "in mortal's logic"? Like, wasn't the whole point in beerus killing zamasu in the present to stop black from existing? And also wasn't this the whole basis of why black having the time ring protect him?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Because no one seems to have noticed that unofficial stuff was used, again.

I remember already talking to Omega about this.

But I don't remember much of the details.

Should this be addressed, or is this going to be one of those "Shin can see across the universe" things?

 

[MeiouHades]

You're ignoring basic laws of "Action and Consequence". Beerus' change in ACTION is caused as a CONSEQUENCE of TIME TRAVEL.

Nope, had Beerus known the laws of time well, he wouldnt have done that, which Whis calls him out on. Ruling this out completely.

Of course his different action is what caused a divergence in timelines, it's literally what it was different in the timeline, but it would not have happened without Time Travelling. It is NOT a natural action.

Being natural or unnatural is irrelevant. Had Beerus killed Zamasu for stealing his food, a new split timeline would still be formed

 

[omegabronic]

Should this be addressed, or is this going to be one of those "Shin can see across the universe" things?

Do you have the original scan?

 

[Damage3245]

Whis flat out states that Beerus caused a timeline split by killing Zamasu, meaning there exists a timeline in which Beerus didn't do so

Yeah... He didn't kill him in the original timeline because the original timeline wasn't forewarned by Trunks.

Trunks travelling back in time with a warning about Goku Black is the whole reason why Beerus sought out and killed Zamasu.

 

[MeiouHades]

Whis flat out states that Beerus caused a timeline split by killing Zamasu, meaning there exists a timeline in which Beerus didn't do so

And Whis traveled back to that timeline to inform the Whis of THAT timeline to ask THAT Beerus to end their Zamasu as well

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah... He didn't kill him in the original timeline because the original timeline wasn't forewarned by Trunks.

Trunks travelling back in time with a warning about Goku Black is the whole reason why Beerus sought out and killed Zamasu.

Trunks travelling back in time to warn about Goku Black is the entire reason Goku and Beerus sought out Zamasu to begin with, which is how Zamasu learned about Goku, which is how he'd enact his plan to become Goku Black in the timeline where Beerus didn't kill him

 

[Deagonx]

Whis flat out states that Beerus caused a timeline split by killing Zamasu, meaning there exists a timeline in which Beerus didn't do so

Yes. Trunks' original timeline.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yes. Trunks' original timeline.

What you're specifically referring to is not in Trunks's timeline. In Trunks's timeline, Goku Black arrives and kills the Future Gowasu, influencing the Future Zamasu to become immortal via the Super Dragon Balls

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Do you have the original scan?

Original Japanese text	My rough translation	Viz translation	Fan translation
え......と......たとえば孫悟空さんはオレが未来からもってきた心臓病の薬で命をとりとめました......ですがオレのいた未来の世界ではやっぱり悟空さんは過去に心臓病で死んだ人なんですつまり助かった悟空さんがいる未来もあれば死んでしまった未来もあるんですちょっとしたことでたくさんの未来ができてしまうわけです	"Um... For example, Son Goku survived with heart disease medicine I brought from the future... but in the world I was in, Goku- died of heart disease in the past. In other words, there is a future where Goku survived, and there is a future where he died. Many futures can be created by one little thing."	"Okay... for example... your Goku's life was saved by the medicine I brought from the future... but in my timeline, Goku still died from the disease. In other words, there's both a future in which Goku has died... and one in which he lived. Each change in the past creates new futures."	"Well, for example, in the present time, Goku-san's life was saved with the cure for the heart disease that I brought over from the future... but in the future from which I came, Goku-san is still someone who died in the past of the heart disease. In other words, while there's a future in which Goku-san is alive, there's another future in which he is dead. Many different futures are created over the smallest of things."

The context is: Gohan asked Trunks if he could travel further in time and destroy the Androids before they even appear, and Trunks explains that travelling back in time and altering the course of history creates parallel worlds.

Yes. Trunks' original timeline.

Or, Goku Black's timeline.

 

[MeiouHades]

Guys, this is getting derailed. The main stuff has already been argued and as far as I can see, most people seem to be fine with keeping the cosmologies the same, but making GT/Movies non-canon. Have this timeline split thing evaluated in a separate CRT. It even need to be staff-only.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Should this be addressed, or is this going to be one of those "Shin can see across the universe" things?

I didn't understand this Shin thing, but probably?

Is the multiverse 2-B thing heavily based on this scan?

I don't follow the crts much, I only watch them sometimes.

 

[Damage3245]

Trunks travelling back in time to warn about Goku Black is the entire reason Goku and Beerus sought out Zamasu to begin with, which is how Zamasu learned about Goku, which is how he'd enact his plan to become Goku Black in the timeline where Beerus didn't kill him

Ah, I'm thinking of the Dragon Ball Super manga where Zamasu learns of Goku's existence through another method.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm gonna sum this up real quick:

• Goku Black's Timeline: Zamasu's plan goes completely unhindered, and he becomes Goku Black
• Future Trunks's Timeline: Goku Black travels to this timeline and kills Future Gowasu, influencing Future Zamasu to become immortal via the Super Dragon Balls
• Main Timeline: Zamasu's plan to become Goku Black is stopped via Beerus killing him

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I didn't understand this Shin thing, but probably?

The East Supreme Kai currently has Enhanced Senses for being able to see across the universe, and this has never been addressed before.

Is the multiverse 2-B thing heavily based on this scan?

It is the main piece of evidence.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ah, I'm thinking of the Dragon Ball Super manga where Zamasu learns of Goku's existence through another method.

Afaik in the anime he watches Goku's battle with Hit but only after he initially meets Goku and fights him during his and Beerus's investigation of Goku Black

 

[MeiouHades]

I'm gonna sum this up real quick:

• Goku Black's Timeline: Zamasu's plan goes completely unhindered, and he becomes Goku Black
• Future Trunks's Timeline: Goku Black travels to this timeline and kills Future Gowasu, influencing Future Zamasu to become immortal via the Super Dragon Balls
• Main Timeline: Zamasu's plan to become Goku Black is stopped via Beerus killing him

Think that settles it, Beerus killing or not killing Zamas is the key factor here (not like we didn’t already know it), not time travel.

 

[MeiouHades]

Guys, this is getting derailed. The main stuff has already been argued and as far as I can see, most people seem to be fine with keeping the cosmologies the same, but making GT/Movies non-canon. Have this timeline split thing evaluated in a separate CRT. It even need to be staff-only.

.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It is the main piece of evidence.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I also feel like it’s worth reiterating that through Dr. Slump stuff, Dragon Ball has countless timelines. Not like some throwaway statement that there are ‘countless parallel worlds,’ but Dr. Slump characters can actually see and interact with these endless existing timelines.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Guys, this is getting derailed. The main stuff has already been argued and as far as I can see, most people seem to be fine with keeping the cosmologies the same, but making GT/Movies non-canon. Have this timeline split thing evaluated in a separate CRT. It even need to be staff-only.

GT's another matter, but movies definitely deserve to stay. I don't see how Toriyama calling them a different dimension to the manga (at a time he even explicitly showed to use dimension to refer to other timelines in the manga), or the Daizenshuu noting twice for them to take place in different/parallel worlds, or the Dragon Box for the movies saying something along the lines of "even if they weren't in the manga, they aren't separate from the main story and show things that could've happened and the origin of things that weren't explained" can just be dismissed.

If nothing else, that statement from the Dragon Box should make it reasonable that they have the same cosmology for what it claims to even be possible.

 

[MeiouHades]

GT's another matter, but movies definitely deserve to stay. I don't see how Toriyama calling them a different dimension to the manga (at a time he even explicitly showed to use dimension to refer to other timelines in the manga), or the Daizenshuu noting twice for them to take place in different/parallel worlds, or the Dragon Box for the movies saying something along the lines of "even if they weren't in the manga, they aren't separate from the main story and show things that could've happened and the origin of things that weren't explained" can just be dismissed.

If nothing else, that statement from the Dragon Box should make it reasonable that they have the same cosmology for what it claims to even be possible.

That can be debated as well but I’m saying that at the bare minimum we can keep the cosmology, especially as Executor confirmed that the Otherworld structure had heavy Toriyama involvement especially during the early arcs which holds all the relevant stuff we need for the composite cosmology. The rest can probably be handled in another CRT if necessary

 

[RedReaper]

I also feel like it’s worth reiterating that through Dr. Slump stuff, Dragon Ball has countless timelines. Not like some throwaway statement that there are ‘countless parallel worlds,’ but Dr. Slump characters can actually see and interact with these endless existing timelines.

Personally, I wonder what inspiration Toriyama had that made him choose MWI, (at least within Dr. Slump), since his series was mostly based on what he was consuming at the time.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Oh yeah, should mention. Neutral too with the movies being considered part of the canon multiverse or not.

Only thing I personally fully support is the aspects of the afterlife introduced in Z anime being carried throughout Super, and thus Super still possessing a 2-C macrocosm.

 

[TiltedFN]

I also feel like it’s worth reiterating that through Dr. Slump stuff, Dragon Ball has countless timelines. Not like some throwaway statement that there are ‘countless parallel worlds,’ but Dr. Slump characters can actually see and interact with these endless existing timelines.

Ive never seen this before, wow, that should be even more proof for 2-B cosmology and more natural timelines existing and not just timelines branched from the present timeline due to time travel, i mean thats the whole point of the green time rings.

 

[Hasty12345]

I don’t see how Toriyama incorporating Z anime elements into the manga (an anime based on his manga) also extends to GT which is not based on his work and is absolutely retconned by the existence of Super.

the movies do have some sort of justification for cosmology cross scaling, but GT doesn’t have anything