Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don’t see how Toriyama incorporating Z anime elements into the manga (an anime based on his manga) also extends to GT which is not based on his work and is absolutely retconned by the existence of Super.

the movies do have some sort of justification for cosmology cross scaling, but GT doesn’t have anything

You are getting confused. GT receives elements from Z anime, as it is its continuation. However, these same elements were worked on by Toriyama, and even included in the og manga, which Super follows. Thus, both receive these as part of their cosmology (specially since neither contradict them, besides some throwaway lines on Super that honestly barely have any corroboration, and I personally don't see them as contradicting).

That means, only those elements should be shared. Cosmology stuff introduced in GT should not go to Super or viceversa without good reason.

 

[MeiouHades]

I don’t see how Toriyama incorporating Z anime elements into the manga (an anime based on his manga) also extends to GT which is not based on his work and is absolutely retconned by the existence of Super.

It doesn’t. What we’re saying is that the stuff Toriyama worked on in the Z anime (The Afterlife and other stuff) is applicable to Super. GT doesn’t really need to be relevant here

 

[Omegabronic]

Guys, this is getting derailed. The main stuff has already been argued and as far as I can see, most people seem to be fine with keeping the cosmologies the same, but making GT/Movies non-canon. Have this timeline split thing evaluated in a separate CRT. It even need to be staff-only.

Well staff wise we still need to hear more of the re evaluation requests, i say we all stop, tag some new and old staff to the summary, and then wait before arguing again, because right now this os starting to get a little clogged

 

[Deagonx]

What you're specifically referring to is not in Trunks's timeline. In Trunks's timeline, Goku Black arrives and kills the Future Gowasu, influencing the Future Zamasu to become immortal via the Super Dragon Balls

I'm gonna sum this up real quick:

• Goku Black's Timeline: Zamasu's plan goes completely unhindered, and he becomes Goku Black
• Future Trunks's Timeline: Goku Black travels to this timeline and kills Future Gowasu, influencing Future Zamasu to become immortal via the Super Dragon Balls
• Main Timeline: Zamasu's plan to become Goku Black is stopped via Beerus killing him

The timeline that Black is originally from is the timeline created by Cell. I'm not sure what your argument is, but the fact is that time travel to the past + creation of a paradox is what leads to a new timeline. Trunks is responsible for the current main timeline of the series, Beerus' actions were the consequence of it.

 

[Damage3245]

Cosmology stuff introduced in GT should not go to Super or viceversa without good reason.

Isn't this the main point of the thread?

 

[Deagonx]

Isn't this the main point of the thread?

Yes.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The timeline that Black is originally from is the timeline created by Cell. I'm not sure what your argument is, but the fact is that time travel to the past + creation of a paradox is what leads to a new timeline. Trunks is responsible for the current main timeline of the series, Beerus' actions were the consequence of it.

The bolded part is not exactly true. If Whis stated that Beerus's actions caused a timeline split, that inherently means there's a timeline in which the same prior events happened, but Beerus did not kill Zamasu.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Isn't this the main point of the thread?

Main point is if they share timeline. (Edit: as in, GT exists as an alternate timeline within the canon multiverse)

If the decision there is no, they do not share timeline, then my statement becomes true. As I am personally neutral there, I let that up to other staff.

 

[Deagonx]

The bolded part is not exactly true. If Whis stated that Beerus's actions caused a timeline split, that inherently means there's a timeline in which the same prior events happened, but Beerus did not kill Zamasu.

It's nonetheless the case that Trunks caused that. The travel itself doesn't create a branch, the paradox does. Trunks was responsible for shifting the trajectory Beerus was on

 

[Omegabronic]

Main point is if they share timeline. (Edit: as in, GT exists as an alternate timeline within the canon multiverse)

If the decision there is no, they do not share timeline, then my statement becomes true. As I am personally neutral there, I let that up to other staff.

So, if they don't share a timeline, you are of the belief that elements from gt, such as cosmology, shouldn't apply to super without further evidence and vice versa? Sorry for bothering, trying to see if i will have to right a justification for your vote in the tallies

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, if they don't share a timeline, you are of the belief that elements from gt, such as cosmology, shouldn't apply to super without further evidence and vice versa? Sorry for bothering, trying to see if i will have to right a justification for your vote in the tallies

They would need to have been worked on by Toriyama and/or referenced on canon material for Super (preferably both). That's my stance.

 

[Deagonx]

That is my stance as well

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's nonetheless the case that Trunks caused that. The travel itself doesn't create a branch, the paradox does. Trunks was responsible for shifting the trajectory Beerus was on

You’ve made your belief on this matter clear, as have I. We’ll probably be going in circles if we continue

 

[Deagonx]

Right, but the fact that time travel is how timelines are made is directly explained. In the same storyline that this happens.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Right, but the fact that time travel is how timelines are made is directly explained. In the same storyline that this happens.

And it’s also directly explained that Beerus killing Zamasu also caused a split in the timeline. This simply means Trunks’s time travel caused a timeline split, and then Beerus’s actions caused another one. This is exactly what I mean by saying we’ll just be going in circles.

 

[Deagonx]

This simply means Trunks’s time travel caused a timeline split, and then Beerus’s actions caused another one

This is wrong. What timeline did Trunks time travel create by itself?

 

[MeiouHades]

This is wrong. What timeline did Trunks time travel create by itself?

You haven’t responded to my reply, nor have you addressed what Whis said, should I take that as concession?

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is wrong. What timeline did Trunks time travel create by itself?

A timeline in which Future Trunks appears vs. that same timeline, except he doesn’t appear. Trunks mentions to Gohan in the conversation Null sent that time traveling causes this.

Also if you’re saying this didn’t happen, you’re admitting that it was Beerus’s action that caused the split, not Trunks’s time travel

 

[Deagonx]

Also if you’re saying this didn’t happen, you’re admitting that it was Beerus’s action that caused the split, not Trunks’s time travel

No? I'm contesting a second timeline split happening independent of Beerus, which was caused by Trunks.

You haven’t responded to my reply, nor have you addressed what Whis said, should I take that as concession?

Why would that be a concession?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why would that be a concession?

A failure to respond to, much less address a counterargument, could be seen as a concession

No? I'm contesting a second timeline split happening independent of Beerus, which was caused by Trunks.

I don’t think I follow. What exactly are you arguing here?

 

[Deagonx]

A failure to respond to, much less address a counterargument, could be seen as a concession

Not validly. By that logic every argument would just be a last word contest.

I don’t think I follow. What exactly are you arguing here?

Trunks didn't make two new timelines. There's not enough rings.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Right, but the fact that time travel is how timelines are made is directly explained. In the same storyline that this happens.

Time travel forcibly creating timelines isn't mutually exclusive to timelines naturally existing. Trunk’s explanation in Z is a testament to that and you said it was retconned, but can you prove that the statement is retconned? It‘s extremely consistent with everything in Super, and you can’t just claim somethings retconned without valid proof.

 

[TiltedFN]

Time travel forcibly creating timelines isn't mutually exclusive to timelines naturally existing. Trunk’s explanation in Z is a testament to that and you said it was retconned, but can you prove that the statement is retconned? It‘s extremely consistent with everything in Super, and you can’t just claim somethings retconned without valid proof.

And dr slump

 

[Omegabronic]

Trunk’s explanation in Z is a testament to that and you said it was retconned

Original Japanese text	My rough translation	Viz translation	Fan translation
え......と......たとえば孫悟空さんはオレが未来からもってきた心臓病の薬で命をとりとめました......ですがオレのいた未来の世界ではやっぱり悟空さんは過去に心臓病で死んだ人なんですつまり助かった悟空さんがいる未来もあれば死んでしまった未来もあるんですちょっとしたことでたくさんの未来ができてしまうわけです	"Um... For example, Son Goku survived with heart disease medicine I brought from the future... but in the world I was in, Goku- died of heart disease in the past. In other words, there is a future where Goku survived, and there is a future where he died. Many futures can be created by one little thing."	"Okay... for example... your Goku's life was saved by the medicine I brought from the future... but in my timeline, Goku still died from the disease. In other words, there's both a future in which Goku has died... and one in which he lived. Each change in the past creates new futures."	"Well, for example, in the present time, Goku-san's life was saved with the cure for the heart disease that I brought over from the future... but in the future from which I came, Goku-san is still someone who died in the past of the heart disease. In other words, while there's a future in which Goku-san is alive, there's another future in which he is dead. Many different futures are created over the smallest of things."

The context is: Gohan asked Trunks if he could travel further in time and destroy the Androids before they even appear, and Trunks explains that travelling back in time and altering the course of history creates parallel worlds.

Or, Goku Black's timeline.

Null kind of explained how that wouldn't really be an MWI indication, but more proof that "time travel = new timeline created"

 

[Omegabronic]

And dr slump

i am personally conflicted about using anything from Dr slump to DB, like, in that series they are gag characters that change everything around them for the sake of a joke, with the world through their eyes being inherently different, with stuff like the planet, and every planet being sentient and fighting back against who they dislike, the planet and the solar system being bilions of times bigger than ours irl etc, like, they exist in the same verse, but the passive gag 4th wall break shenanigans that happens in Dr slump makes it, in my view, impossible to make anything cosmology or not wise from that to scale to dragon ball at all

 

[Deagonx]

Time travel forcibly creating timelines isn't mutually exclusive to timelines naturally existing. Trunk’s explanation in Z is a testament to that and you said it was retconned, but can you prove that the statement is retconned? It‘s extremely consistent with everything in Super, and you can’t just claim somethings retconned without valid proof.

It's not without proof at all. We know how many rings there are, and people much more knowledgeable than Trunks have said otherwise.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not validly. By that logic every argument would just be a last word contest.

I suppose, but a failure to respond to, much less address a counterargument, doesn't leave the best impression

Trunks didn't make two new timelines. There's not enough rings.

How would there not be enough rings? The room the Time Rings are all contained in shows a bunch of shelves containing Time Rings iirc

 

[CloverDragon03]

I suppose, but a failure to respond to, much less address a counterargument, doesn't leave the best impression

And on this note I will proceed to do what is probably a hypocritical move and retire from the thread, because I've got multiple other things to worry about and this is pretty low on my priority list

 

[Deagonx]

How would there not be enough rings? The room the Time Rings are all contained in shows a bunch of shelves containing Time Rings iirc

No one knows what the shelves contain, but you're saying that even though all of the timelines are accounted for with the rings we see in the one box we have in the show, all accounted for through the mechanism I'm describing, there must be unseen extras populating outside the box in spite of the established mechanism? Why?

 

[TiltedFN]

i am personally conflicted about using anything from Dr slump to DB, like, in that series they are gag characters that change everything around them for the sake of a joke, with the world through their eyes being inherently different, with stuff like the planet, and every planet being sentient and fighting back against who they dislike, the planet and the solar system being bilions of times bigger than ours irl etc, like, they exist in the same verse, but the passive gag 4th wall break shenanigans that happens in Dr slump makes it, in my view, impossible to make anything cosmology or not wise from that to scale to dragon ball at all

Okay, just because you personally are conflicted, doesn't mean its wrong. Dr slump is canon to DB and has spoke of GT's existence, and there has been shown countless timelines which matches up with manga and anime statements implying there is more timelines.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Null kind of explained how that wouldn't really be an MWI indication, but more proof that "time travel = new timeline created"

I mean 2 of the 3 translations Null posted seemed to imply MWI, but we can ask Executor to translate the original kanji.

It's not without proof at all. We know how many rings there are, and people much more knowledgeable than Trunks have said otherwise.

We don’t know how many rings they are. I’m still waiting for the scan from the more knowledgable people than Trunks saying otherwise because nothing they said contradicted Trunks at all. Those character never state there’s x amount of timelines either.

No one knows what the shelves contain, but you're saying that even though all of the timelines are accounted for with the rings we see in the one box we have in the show, all accounted for through the mechanism I'm describing, there must be unseen extras populating outside the box in spite of the established mechanism? Why?

We do not know what the time boxes contain. We even see an imprint on other places inside the box that would slide into where the time ring would go.

 

[Omegabronic]

Okay, just because you personally are conflicted, doesn't mean its wrong. Dr slump is canon to DB and has spoke of GT's existence, and there has been shown countless timelines which matches up with manga and anime statements implying there is more timelines.

are you really going to ignore the reasoning for my concerns? i feel like you should try and address them

I mean 2 of the 3 translations Null posted seemed to imply MWI, but we can ask Executor to translate the original kanji.

yeah this is the way to go

 

[Deagonx]

We don’t know how many rings they are

There's nothing to suggest there are additional rings outside of the handful we see in the box.

 

[Spinoirr]

There's nothing to suggest there are additional rings outside of the handful we see in the box.

????

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

????

Wasn’t there a scan showing all Supreme Kais had their own time rings? I’ve spent ages looking for it, so it’d be helpful if someone could find it.

 

[MeiouHades]

Not validly. By that logic every argument would just be a last word contest.

How hard is it to admit it that you can’t think of another valid argument to the counter (because there isn’t one)?

 

[Deagonx]

How hard is it to admit it that you can’t think of another valid argument to the counter (because there isn’t one)?

To be honest? Thursdays are my busiest days IRL, so I've only been able to sporadically reply. I didn't see it amongst the many replies I've gotten and I'm not even entirely sure which comment you're referring to. But sure yeah.

 

[MeiouHades]

To be honest? Thursdays are my busiest days IRL, so I've only been able to sporadically reply. I didn't see it amongst the many replies I've gotten and I'm not even entirely sure which comment you're referring to. But sure yeah.

Yeah, you can’t even find a good excuse, because I hammered the Whis point consistently in EVERY comment and even pointed out how that’s the one thing you’re deliberately ignoring even when you were arguing with me. Deagon I hate to say this but your credibility is lower than Yamcha‘s power level in my view at least

 

[Deagonx]

These scans are helpful.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, you can’t even find a good excuse, because I hammered the Whis point consistently in EVERY comment and even pointed out how that’s the one thing you’re deliberately ignoring even when you were arguing with me. Deagon I hate to say this but your credibility is lower than Yamcha‘s power level in my view at least

Oh if you're just referring to Whis saying Beerus did it, I already responded to that. Beerus' actions were caused by Trunks. What Whis said doesn't contradict what I said, because the causal chain for that event is ultimately traced back to Trunks changing the past, in keeping with the function described by the manga.

That is why you avoided my question about whether Beerus would've done it without Trunks time travelling.