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'Umr at-Tawil vs the Presence

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Are you gonna cast a vote?

And well yeah. This time it's not inconclusive. Presence is > baseline 1-A but to what degree is unknown

Meanwhile 'Umr is a high end (and I mean, highest end) 1-A with similar hax. It's not a stomp but it's definitely in 'Umr's favor. It would definitely have to be specified that this is not Yog's High 1-A form, though.
 
>Are you gonna cast a vote?

Nah i'm not gonna, was kinda curious at how no one is jumping at another guy throat.

ThisisMe
I'm still following this thread, but if it becomes bloody, i sure as hell would enjoy the chaos
 
That doesn't really need to happen in regards to very high tier VS battles. It's the reason that they're so hesitantly had. People arguing incessantly about trivia would just make the thread go nowhere. Essentially powers don't really mean much at the level they're at, so it's more about hierarchy and who has more capability.
 
I would like an explanation for why you think this is an inconclusive match, if that's at all possible.
 
Very well. We set the baseline for 1-As as the same, but I do not believe (I could be mistaken) that we set all beings that surpass the baseline as the same format. As thus, I cannot fully say that simply because both TR = Nyar, and Nyar < [lower outer gods] < [higher outer gods] < Yog's Avatar where as TR < Lucifer/Michael/whatever < The Presence, that Yoggy's avatar > The Presence. But I need to think this over more
 
This has been an issue with 1-A for quite some time, but further clarification will likely not be had, at least for a while. (the baseline, I mean.) The baseline is surpassing dimensions.

Thought Robot (if that is who you are referring to) is definitely NOT equal to Nyarlathotep, whether this be Demonbane or it be the Cthulhu Mythos, of which this discussion involves the latter and not the former. The *highest* Great Old Ones are surpassed by several entities of 1-A variance, which is one "level," as it were. Then those gods are surpassed by another level of low-ranking Outer Gods. Those Outer Gods are infinitely transcended by other, superior Outer Gods (who Nya may or may not be comparable to) Then Shub-Niggurath possibly transcends him infinitely, and 'Umr at-Tawil possibly transcends that because of his connection to Yog-Sothoth, who infinitely-infinitely transcends even that.

Meanwhile, Lucifer/Michael are above the Source, and baseline 1-A's (which the Great Old Ones are at) and then the Presence transcends them a bit. So I think based off of hierarchy and similar stats that this is a clear victory in favor of 'Umr. I would like to know your response to this argument.
 
Aeyu said:
This has been an issue with 1-A for quite some time, but further clarification will likely not be had, at least for a while. (the baseline, I mean.) The baseline is surpassing dimensions.
Thought Robot (if that is who you are referring to) is definitely NOT equal to Nyarlathotep, whether this be Demonbane or it be the Cthulhu Mythos, of which this discussion involves the latter and not the former. The *highest* Great Old Ones are surpassed by several entities of 1-A variance, which is one "level," as it were. Then those gods are surpassed by another level of low-ranking Outer Gods. Those Outer Gods are infinitely transcended by other, superior Outer Gods, to which those Outer Gods are surpassed by some of Nyarlathotep's avatars, which then Nyarlathotep infinitely transcends. Then Shub-Niggurath possibly transcends him infinitely, and 'Umr at-Tawil possibly infinitely transcends that, and likely does because of his connection to Yog-Sothoth, who infinitely-infinitely transcends even that.

Meanwhile, Lucifer/Michael are above the Source, and baseline 1-A's (which the Great Old Ones are at) and then the Presence transcends them a bit. So I think based off of hierarchy and similar stats that this is a clear victory in favor of 'Umr. I would like to know your response to this argument.
Click to expand...
Good arguments, I agree.
 
Aeyu said:
[just look above]
Click to expand...
that is correct. But I think you missunderstand what I am saying.

I guess I porely explained myself then. I used bad examples on both accounts, and for that I apologize. I think you missed the point of what I was saying and focussed more on debunking my examples, which were flawed. Let me try and explain better. Simply because [whoever the **** the weakest outerversal being in The Mythos] = [whoever the **** the weakest outerversal being in DC] and [whoever the **** the weakest outerversal being in The Mythos] < [level of outergods above the previous] < [level of outergods above the previous #2] < ... < Yoggy's avatar, while [whoever the **** the weakest outerversal being in DC] < [Outerversal DC entity who is not the weakest] < The Presence.

Btw, are we ever told by what degree The Presence is above Luci? I don't recall.
 
Would Pralaya be the weakest outerversal DC entity? It kinda has to do with my example but if it will derail the conversation then don't bother
 
I'm not misunderstanding if your argument is that it doesn't equalize. What I'm saying is that DC and Cthulhu Mythos both have baseline 1-As, and that Lucifer/Michael are somewhat above that, with Presence and Elaine Belloc being above Lucifer/Michael to an unknown degree, massively higher than, but I'll put it into perspective (this is more relative, but it's hard to gauge 1-As on anything else except this when feats are similar)

Baseline 1-A (Source, Mother Night) <<<<< (relative, but inferior to) <<<< Lucifer/Michael <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (unknown, possibly infinite) Presence/Elaine

whereas

Greatest Old Ones <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Hypnos <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (times infinity) Weakest Outer Gods < (times infinity) Greater Outer Gods < (times infinity) Greatest Outer Gods >= Nyarlathotep < (infinitely) Shub-Niggurath, which 'Umr could be in the same region of power as. Not to mention being linked to a High 1-A pretty much gives him this hierarchy bonus anyway. I would argue that Yog is >= Overvoid, and Overvoid didn't even notice The Presence existed.
 
Basically, even if Presence is infinitely infinite compared to Lucifer/Michael, (and this is highballing them btw) putting them in the realm of the weaker Outer Gods, Presence would scale (remember, this is a massive highball) to maybe Nya, and 'Umr would smack Nya down, no diff. 1-A, possibly higher is a scary, SCARY realm to be at. I would argue that he's at the literal toppest point of 1-A that you can possibly even be at, where Presence is like, mid to maybe higher.
 
What you say still does not make it any better. If we don't know by what degree The Presence is superior to Luci and the like then I'm still gonna go with inconclusive. It may very well be several times infinite, who knows.

I'm probably gonna change my vote, but I really don't know. You make a stong case.
 
You can kind of understand it in that Lucifer could have taken on the role, had he wanted, but thought that that wasn't something he would enjoy or appreciate, so he tells Elaine to take over that role instead. Elaine is Presence level, and while vastly superior to Lucifer and Michael, they're still at least relatively on her level, because she can't know their minds and even mentions that the tier of power they exist in similar, though she vastly transcends them. Compare this to Hypnos, an already mid-level 1-A whose mind could not fathom even the weakest Outer Gods (probably would have been the same reaction for most of the Great Old Ones) whom Nyarlathotep to many, many degrees of infinity transcends, with the Ultimate Gods being equal to or beyond that, and Shub being infinitely above that entire "dimension", of power, with 'Umr potentially in the same level of power as her.

Connection to a High 1-A is my argument. The above post is my rationalization of why this makes sense.
 
A few tiny things.

When certain Outer Gods/Archetypes are "above" others, it is more through level of influence. It's made clear there's no real "power" difference at this level, as such thing is perspective, which these entities view as the illusion it is. This is kinda hard to put into battle terms.

The other thing is that 'Umr at-Tawil isn't above Outer Gods. It is, however, above a group of beings drastically above multiple degrees of dimensionless beings, and acts as an avatar to Yog-Sothoth.
 
I agree, though there are lesser and greater degrees of those beings on a "hierarchy," level, which is what I'm going for. Essentially, the same applies with Presence, but my argument is more that 'Umr is higher on a hierarchical level than someone like Presence (he is directly linked to a High 1-A) though I can see one might think it hard to put into the essence of battle.

That being said, the Avatar was described as being beyond the darkness of the Gate, which I always assumed meant them to be somewhat comparable to the Ultimate Gods.
 
Aeyu said:
That being said, the Avatar was described as being beyond the darkness of the Gate, which I always assumed meant them to be somewhat comparable to the Ultimate Gods.
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Considering the second gate lead to the ultimate void, I wouldn't say that's too far fetched.
 
And then I thought that maybe, because of the possibly higher, and the connection to High 1-A, that they could be on Shub's level even, but if that's not the case, I'm not upset and stand corrected, but still hold to my vote.
 
what makes cthulhu mythos characters so ridiculously strong? even compared to other 1-A's on this site, they're considered to be absurdly powerful. why is this?

and when was the presence defeated? i dont think i've ever seen him defeated.
 
@Jdjs

It's because they're part of cosmic horror stories about the meaninglessness of humans, showing just how high these potential entities can go and how even their weakest gods are so beyond everything we could ever think or conceive of that it's futile to even resist this natural flow of things.

And he wasn't defeated I don't think, but he also was concerned about GEB's power. I don't think the Outer Gods fear anything except Azathoth and maybe Yog. (aka a High 1-A and 0)

Overvoid didn't even recognize Presence's existence.
 
ah i see.

and just like i said, the presence was never defeated. but a couple dudes in this thread were saying that the presence was defeated.

and the presence was never concerned about GEB's power. IIRC he simply reached out and held hands with him. never showed any fear or concern.

and yeah, the overvoid doesnt even recognize the presence's existence, but the same can be said about how all the outer gods are literally nothing to yog.
 
@Andrew

Even Hypnos was at that sort of level though, he alluded to being able to conquer all of existence and reality and rule over it all as a Supreme God. And yet, the things behind the Gates were far too much for him to even comprehend, and are totally outside of all of existence, not to mention already Outerversal realms, which Hypnos was fully capable of transcending and encompassing the entirety of.
 
The realms below heavens are already 1A . Night and time themselves are far above the concept of heavens and they are said to predate all versions of creations . lucifer alone is superior to them . None of the mid tier 1A beings like lucifer and micheal does't come anywhere near few yahwehs aspects like great evil beast . He could erase the entire 1A's with a gesture .
 
And so could the lowest outer Gods.

Hypnos, a mid to kinda high tiered 1-A (he was beyond MULTIPLE, if not infinite, outerversal realms) was literally nothing to them on multiple levels.
 
Jdjsksksks said:
and the presence was never concerned about GEB's power. IIRC he simply reached out and held hands with him. never showed any fear or concern.
Click to expand...
I can't remember the exact book (I specifically remembered it being a Lucifer book) but I distinctively remember him claiming that even he wasn't truly all powerful or something to that effect and I believe this is generally understood by the community. Connecting Veritgo and the mainstream DC can be confusing though and I will go back to cite this claim instead of just trying to remember it because it is possible I misremembering details. But I do think been a debate on who the True Supreme Being of the DC Universe is which is something you could see from here as well. I mean it is clear that he stated that he was shaped by "External Forces" when he was talking to Lucifer. Now whether this was true or if he was lying is anyone's guess. He also referred to himself as Infinite and immortal as well.

YxQor.png


But other then that and his replacement I will have to do more reviewing. But my vote still stands.


Also yes, I'm aware that Lucifer isn't considered canon, still, just a citation.
 
That's 6 votes. We technically only need one more, although there are 2 inconclusives still.
 
Well, that's 7, but...idk. I feel like Azzy should have some input here. Maybe ask on his wall?
 
This can't be added because of this Verses thread rule:

"Please do not expect matches with 1-A characters to be added, and do not create multiple threads for such purposes. Due to the unfathomably high gaps of power between characters within this category, and how hard it is to figure out their relative strengths, it is very rare that these threads end up being discussed for anything beyond casual entertainment."

And even if it could be added, I'm pretty sure that 'Umr at-Tawil is many infinites greater than The Presence, so this is a stomp.
 
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