Type 4 Acausality: Too Much for Too Little

[Bobsican]

Okay, let's see how type 4 is described right now:

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Now, let's compare to type 5:

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside causality. Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible.

Though the character is completely independent of causality to the point of being unaffected by any outside change, this only extends to as far as evidence shows and not to things beyond its feats. While true acausality such that one is completely unbounded by and independent from cause and effect in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction.

Note: Being completely independent of space, time, laws, or similar forces does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise.

See a problem? Right now, type 4 Acausality has the most lenient qualifying criteria to qualify for it compared to all other Acausality types, as merely being stated to have an unusual relationship between causality, time, laws, etc. without further context is sufficient for type 4, while all other types require more context, which raises questions with the overall site standard of higher claims requiring higher evidence.

Not only that, currently it inherently gives more stuff than even type 5 (namely unconventional resistances to several abilities as said there), as at the moment it's not limited to the feats it has displayed, unlike type 5.

Now, I'm aware some are going to think that merely having a unusual relationship with causality is sufficient to "resist" stuff like Fate Manip and Precognition, but... I'll just quote something from @DontTalkDT :

Gotta disagree. Operating on another system doesn't mean operating on a system that makes you immune to stuff.
It's like playing chess, but you use different rules than your opponent. You playing by different rules doesn't mean your pieces can't be captured. They could still be possible to capture, just that they are captured in accordance to your set of rules.
In fact, a system being different just means it being different in one aspect, not necessarily in all aspects. You could operate on an irregular system of causality which 99% of the time behaves exactly like regular causality.

Honestly, if you ask me we should rather remove some of the resistances Type 4 grants by default...

Interestingly a ton of staff agreed on what DT said in that thread (which is what I quoted), but the OP was proposing other stuff and so was just a debunk that then caused the thread to close.

Anyways, the proposal is to basically redefine what type 4 Acausality inherently gives by default (if anything at all, which is to be discussed here), maybe rework some of the criteria to qualify, and keep anything else limited to case by case, including what it'd grant, like how we handle aspect 5 of Nonexistent Physiology, and well, type 5 Acausality.

 

[Bobsican]

...Bump.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Everything12

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Everything12

Putting this as #6 on my list until I'm inevitably reminded that there was more pressing stuff I had to do

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler

What do you think about this?

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa

What do you think about this?

I currently have 48 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure how to reword it, but I think we normally give Type 4 for those who exist outside of time; as in outside of the past, present, or future As opposed to Type 1 having a present and future but no past. And Type 2 having no past, or future but still has a present.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sure how to reword it, but I think we normally give Type 4 for those who exist outside of time; as in outside of the past, present, or future As opposed to Type 1 having a present and future but no past. And Type 2 having no past, or future but still has a present.

@Qawsedf234 @Damage3245 @Sir_Ovens @ByAsura @Elizhaa @SamanPatou

Do you have any suggestions for what we should do here?

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Gasper]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

Note that I'm mainly waiting for DontTalk given the OP is kinda accepted currently out of the staff consensus already agreeing with his take on the matter in a previous thread, so it'd be more of a matter of polishing the conclusions to then update the Acausality page.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

Note that I'm mainly waiting for DontTalk given the OP is kinda accepted currently out of the staff consensus already agreeing with his take on the matter in a previous thread, so it'd be more of a matter of polishing the conclusions to then update the Acausality page.

DT already has a lot of stuff on his list. I would ask that you stop bumping this for now so that he can focus on the more important stuff.

 

[Eseseso]

Neutral.

 

[Deagonx]

I would agree that we make too many assumptions about resistances coming from Type 4. We should either tighten the criteria or remove the assumed resistances unless they are actually proven.

 

[Vietthai96]

I would agree that we make too many assumptions about resistances coming from Type 4. We should either tighten the criteria or remove the assumed resistances unless they are actually proven.

Aca 4 even under current assumption only grant resistances to like..........................3 abilities by default, so how do we gonna even tighten the criteria or remove assumed resistances???

Not only that, currently it inherently gives more stuff than even type 5 (namely unconventional resistances to several abilities as said there), as at the moment it's not limited to the feats it has displayed, unlike type 5.

This actually...........not true, because iirc, Aca 5 make you completely uninteractable which actually give more than aca 4

 

[Deagonx]

Aca 4 even under current assumption only grant resistances to like..........................3 abilities by default, so how do we gonna even tighten the criteria or remove assumed resistances???

By removing resistances to those three abilities?

 

[Eseseso]

By removing resistances to those three abilities?

Then what would Type 4 Acausality even grant you?

Also, I disagree with removing resistance to Fate Manipulation and Precognition, neutral on removing resistance to Causality Manipulation.

 

[Bobsican]

Aca 4 even under current assumption only grant resistances to like..........................3 abilities by default, so how do we gonna even tighten the criteria or remove assumed resistances???

What Deagonx said, merely being stricter would require far more site-wide changes, and it'd be best to just gradually indirectly encourage users to index what their type 4 Acausality has shown to grant.

The note at the end of type 5 also implies type 4 also grants a "unconventional" resistance to whatever a character has shown to have a weird interaction on besides causality, such as Law Manipulation or Time Manipulation, and while those can be argued to indeed apply, they're also quite different to also assume a character would also have an unusual interaction with causality on other aspects for the purposes of Precog and Fate Manip.

This actually...........not true, because iirc, Aca 5 make you completely uninteractable which actually give more than aca 4

Now that you mention it, no, it's possible for some "high-end" cases of type 4 to behave like type 5 out of being on a separate sort of interaction with normal causality to the point regular cause and effect have no interaction to the one in question.

Admittedly such cases do border into type 5, but are still semantically different to still fall in type 4, and while we do not grant this ability by default as very often there's plenty of anti-feats to claim this (let alone being limited to what's shown for the sake of NLFs as explained on type 5), this thread aims to make stuff stricter as we're giving abilities with nothing in favor beyond "logic" at best, when a lack of anti-feats isn't proof in itself, thus coming off as overly assumptive.

Then what would Type 4 Acausality even grant you?

Also, I disagree with removing resistance to Fate Manipulation and Precognition, neutral on removing resistance to Causality Manipulation.

Nothing by default, justifications would have to be made, rather than assuming that merely meeting the (current) criteria at all inherently grants stuff for our purposes.

Anyways, any particular reason for the disagreement? No reasoning has been given and so this doesn't give food for thought or anything.

 

[Vietthai96]

I need to sleep now and will address some point tomorrow but

By removing resistances to those three abilities?

So we turn Aca 4 into a decorative ability which give nothing, nah just delete it

 

[Eseseso]

Nothing by default, justifications would have to be made, rather than assuming that merely meeting the criteria at all inherently grants stuff for our purposes.

Then if one is Acausality Type for due to, say, being outside of time (or whatever the standard requirement is), it just grants them no resistances unless it's a special case?

Anyways, any particular reason for the disagreement? No reasoning has been given and so this doesn't give food for thought or anything.

Being outside of space and time should make you resistant to standard fate hax, as well as standard precognition (as you are beyond the standard future).

 

[Bobsican]

Then if one is Acausality Type for due to, say, being outside of time (or whatever the standard requirement is), it just grants them no resistances unless it's a special case?

Feats and similar would be required, yes.

Being outside of space and time should make you resistant to standard fate hax, as well as standard precognition (as you are beyond the standard future).

Thing is that currently we don't define it by being specifically "beyond fate" or similar to even get that particular unconventional resistance, but rather merely being confirmed to have some unusual interaction with causality or other universal constant, which as DT explained in the OP (with several staff also agreeing in the other thread), is quite insufficient to really give anything on its own, as how exactly the character in question interacts unusually with causality and other stuff is often left up in the air, so going with a generous conclusion is overly assumptive.

 

[Deagonx]

Feats and similar would be required, yes.

Yeah it's not unreasonable to expect that we actually be shown certain types of resistances are accompanied with this "abormal relationship" rather than expecting it as a matter of course.

 

[Eseseso]

Feats and similar would be required, yes.

If feats are required, what is the point of baseline/standard Type 4?

 

[Bobsican]

Same purpose as a Regeneration with no specified degree, just a vague ability yet to be expanded on to matter on stuff like vs threads, cases that are known to grant absolutely nothing under the proposed standards should be removed, however.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

I'd think some more staff input would be required for something like this.

 

[KLOL506]

@Executor_N0 @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @Agnaa @Theglassman12 @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Emirp sumitpo

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you have any suggestions for what we should do here?

Maybe just add a bite like with Type 5?

Note: Characters only qualify for this rating if their nature is directly shown to operate differently than the standard Causality system. Simplying being a different type of being or one with a different nature isn't enough to justify that they operate on a irregular system.

It needs work but it would be the easiest way to handle it.

 

[Bobsican]

Maybe just add a bite like with Type 5?

It needs work but it would be the easiest way to handle it.

The note proposed here is kinda redundant and doesn't cover well the stuff this thread is meant to address, namely on the ability being limited to what it has shown, especially given the several ways it's possible to qualify for it and working on an unusual causality system not inherently being notable for the purposes of other abilities.

I think something like this covers the premise so far:

Note: As this type can be obtained in several different ways with no inherent attributes, the unconventional resistances or abilities it may grant, if any, are limited to what its feats have shown, as merely operating on a different/irregular case between cause and effect from normality, does not inherently include changes from a normal causality system on a notable manner, to then otherwise assume they'd make the respective character more difficult to affect with the respective abilities in question, even for the ones specifically mentioned, such as an irregular existencial bond between laws, time, space, fate, and so on.

I'd also think the description for Type 4 should be changed a bit:

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This can potentially grant them Invulnerability or a resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others, depending on its shown capabilities, which should be specified on the given page.

This heavily minimizes NLF arguments that the thread has been debunking, requests users to specify what their type 4 has granted, and also adds the Invulnerability bit (which'd be worth mentioning as that's more of an ability than a resistance in itself per-say) that's possible as mentioned in a previous thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah that looks good to me.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The note proposed here is kinda redundant and doesn't cover well the stuff this thread is meant to address, namely on the ability being limited to what it has shown, especially given the several ways it's possible to qualify for it and working on an unusual causality system not inherently being notable for the purposes of other abilities.

I think something like this covers the premise so far:



I'd also think the description for Type 4 should be changed a bit:



This heavily minimizes NLF arguments that the thread has been debunking, requests users to specify what their type 4 has granted, and also adds the Invulnerability bit (which'd be worth mentioning as that's more of an ability than a resistance in itself per-say) that's possible as mentioned in a previous thread.

Fine by me.
@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler Thoughts?

 

[Eseseso]

Honestly, I don't hate this revision after further thought, especially since there are multiple instances of Fate hax affecting Type 4 Acausals, which seems like its just haxxy on the surface but when you think about it, it kinda derails the power itself.

Quick question: Suppose you are stated to be Acausal Type 4 because you are "Beyond Time and Space". What resistances would that give should this new Type 4 Acausality come to pass?

Also switching my vote to neutral.

 

[Theglassman12]

can I ask what exactly is it you find sus about the resistances granted for type 4 Acausality? As well as how the requirements aren’t strict enough? Cause the latter just sounds like you want it to be strict for the sake of being strict.

 

[Bobsican]

Honestly, I don't hate this revision after further thought, especially since there are multiple instances of Fate hax affecting Type 4 Acausals, which seems like its just haxxy on the surface but when you think about it, it kinda derails the power itself.

Quick question: Suppose you are stated to be Acausal Type 4 because you are "Beyond Time and Space". What resistances would that give should this new Type 4 Acausality come to pass?

Also switching my vote to neutral.

"Beyond Time and Space" in itself can have a lot of interpretations, in fact the Tiering System FAQ has a whole section dedicated to that as users often like to use it to claim tier 1 and whatever, so I'd think on its own it wouldn't grant anything without further context.

can I ask what exactly is it you find sus about the resistances granted for type 4 Acausality? As well as how the requirements aren’t strict enough? Cause the latter just sounds like you want it to be strict for the sake of being strict.

The OP and the proposed rewrite stuff on my part summarizes it well, but more specifically it's regarding the reasoning behind a given type 4 sometimes having no sufficient correlation to claim resistances that currently are inherently given regardless of the context, and so by extension the requirements aren't sufficiently strict as they welcome NLFs such as being "resistant", for example, to any sort of baseline Causality Manip, when how differently the type 4 acausal is from normal causality often isn't elaborated on, nor portrayed as relevant in relation to such ability, and given the vagueness of some cases, it can't be reasoned from its mechanics that it'd work like that on that regard either, as DT explained, it's quite possible for a character to behave different from normal causality, but still be 99% normal otherwise, and we generally don't tend to make generous assumptions to extrapolate capabilities.

 

[Eseseso]

"Beyond Time and Space" in itself can have a lot of interpretations, in fact the Tiering System FAQ has a whole section dedicated to that as users often like to use it to claim tier 1 and whatever, so I'd think on its own it wouldn't grant anything without further context.

I'm still not fond of an entire section of Acausality not granting ANY power.

Like, if you're beyond time and space, how are you not resistant to stuff like some forms of space-time hax?

As for "Beyond time and space", I was referring to this scan for context:

 

[Bobsican]

The thing is that the criteria of type 4 has no consistently inherent attributes for the purposes of relating it to other P&As, for example, a type 4 acausal unbound by fate could have a unconventional resistance to Fate Manip and Precognition, but not to Causality Manip as the reasoning behind it doesn't extend that far, meanwhile a type 4 acausal that works differently from normal causality to the point they're difficult to interact with would only be limited to what they've shown, like type 5, for the sake of NLFs.

Anyways, for a case that's seemingly "literal" of "beyond time and space" like that one, it'd just be either some type of Large Size or type 9 immortality.

 

[Eseseso]

I kind of see what you're getting at, but being beyond time and space should be resistance to Space-Time Manipulation.

That should be a baseline resistance for Type 4 Acausality, even if the rest of the powers (causality manip, fate manip) need to be stated in-story.

Also one who is Type 4 should at minimum have the powers of Type 1 Acausality.

 

[Bobsican]

Such resistances in this case would be more of a matter of range than a resistance per-say.

And as said before, type 4 acausality is extremely variable, it shouldn't have the stuff of another type by default as its traits can vary depending on its reasoning and extent of details known.