Type 4 Acausality: Too Much For Too Little (2)

[Deagonx]

Our Type 4 Acausality standards currently read:

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Given how many things fall into the rather broad category of "different or irregular system of cause and effect," it's just far too presumptuous to give blanket resistances to Causality Manip, Fate Manip, and Precog to everyone who has it. There are many examples of things that could grant Type 4 but logically wouldn't confer any such resistances to any of those abilities. We should qualifying it by specifying that they potentially have such resistances, when supported by specific evidence. For instance:

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This can potentially grant them resistances to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others, depending on its shown capabilities which should be specified on the given page.

This is preferable, as it won't deprive anyone from keeping abilities they actually have. We have a similar qualifier for Type 5, so I don't see any reason not to include it here.

 

[Deagonx]

@Bobsican @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Ultima_Reality @DarkGrath @Catzlaflame @Everything12 @Firestorm808

 

[Qawsedf234]

I guess I'm fine with it, but usually the default is "You only get resistances to what you're shown to have".

 

[Deagonx]

I guess I'm fine with it, but usually the default is "You only get resistances to what you're shown to have".

I agree, but in practice that's not how this ability has sometimes been treated, so I think it'll be helpful to specify.

 

[Bobsican]

I think he means that's the standard generally speaking for site policies, not how that's being treated currently, I'm sure Qawsed has been in the past thread and it was evident the current standard is that type 4 Acausality grants several abilities inherently with very minimal detail, which is a luxury not even type 5 Acausality or Nonduality have nowadays.

 

[Georredannea15]

Thanks to Qawsedf for giving it to me for comment here.

As for the OP, I agree with most of points on the OP, but there are a few points I want to touch, and one of them is that type 4 Acausality will give resistance to causality manipulation and law manipulation by default.

Because this ability is given to us by working in a different cause-effect relationship or being independent of the existing cause-effect system. I think these should grant resistance to all causality and law manipulations that don't work against type 4 Acausality by default. We basically did the same things in Non-duality and type 5 Acausality


Other than that, I agree with that the all other abilities should be specifically mentioned in the verse. Except for these two, others should not be given by default. (Basically, though how limited the capabilities that Type 4 provides us with...)

 

[DontTalkDT]

Sounds ok

 

[Catzlaflame]

I agree with the premise of the thread but while we're at it, I would like to point out something. The more I think about it, the more it seems like it would function as immunity rather than resistance.

Resistance would be X ability attempts to exert an effect on a character, and the character resists that effect. However, in this case, the ability isn't even exerting an effect at all. To use soul manip as an example: If Y character uses soul manip on Z character (who has a soul), Z character would demonstrate resistance by tanking it and not being affected. On the other hand, If Z character lacks a soul all together, then they have immunity.

If we correlate this to fate manip and acausality: Y character uses Fate manip on Z character that lacks a precence on a casual system, me thinks that would fall under immunity. The biggest and most obvious difference tho is that, unlike with soul manip, its not that Z character lacks a precence on any casual system like all together, its just for that specific casual system. Since we can't inherently assume that layers of resistance negation (for fate manip) would be able to compensate for a character operating on a different casual system, personally, I think it seems like immunity.

Thats the only thing I would change with the wording, the actual propsal is fine.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with the premise of the thread but while we're at it, I would like to point out something. The more I think about it, the more it seems like it would function as immunity rather than resistance.

Resistance would be X ability attempts to exert an effect on a character, and the character resists that effect. However, in this case, the ability isn't even exerting an effect at all. To use soul manip as an example: If Y character uses soul manip on Z character (who has a soul), Z character would demonstrate resistance by tanking it and not being affected. On the other hand, If Z character lacks a soul all together, then they have immunity.

If we correlate this to fate manip and acausality: Y character uses Fate manip on Z character that lacks a precence on a casual system, me thinks that would fall under immunity. The biggest and most obvious difference tho is that, unlike with soul manip, its not that Z character lacks a precence on any casual system like all together, its just for that specific casual system. Since we can't inherently assume that layers of resistance negation (for fate manip) would be able to compensate for a character operating on a different casual system, personally, I think it seems like immunity.

Thats the only thing I would change with the wording, the actual propsal is fine.

We could change it to something like "resistance or even immunity to" to encompass that. Type 4 doesn't necessarily mean immunity either, for instance, you may not have a presence within a certain causal system but if you're to interact with any other character, you must exert influence on that causal system. In which case some forms of precognition should work.

Basically the headline is: Type 4 is a bit of a catch-all for things that don't neatly fit into other categories, but the qualifying instances are too diverse to generalize, so the safe bet is just to make sure it's worded in a way that reminds people that they have to actually demonstrate these resistances or logically qualify it based on what the evidence actually says, not whether they can be placed within the "Type 4 Acausality" bucket that VSBattles created.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Type 4 doesn't necessarily mean immunity either

Basically the headline is: Type 4 is a bit of a catch-all for things that don't neatly fit into other categories, but the qualifying instances are too diverse to generalize, so the safe bet is just to make sure it's worded in a way that reminds people that they have to actually demonstrate these resistances or logically qualify it based on what the evidence actually says, not whether they can be placed within the "Type 4 Acausality" bucket that VSBattles created.

Ya, in-verse context takes priority, and we can't make any assumptions inherently be it for resistance or immunity, but what I am refering to the instances where the in-verse context does show that the character won't be affected by fate manip, casuality manip, etc. The way I see it, if there is any degree of "unaffected-ness" at all (as per the verse) it would be to the point of immunity since they lack a casual presence all-together (in that casual system). As for this:

but if you're to interact with any other character, you must exert influence on that causal system. In which case some forms of precognition should work.

It was my understanding that the ability was for the character to be able to interact with the verse while not affecting the casual system they are in like at all. Yea from a logical standpoint, thats an oxymoron, but I was under the impression that the ability is meant to supernaturally have that consequence.... cus if they do have a casual presence... then I would treat that as a contradiction to acasuality, no?

Like going back to my earlier point, If there was a character with type 4 acausality and the verse specified that this came with "un-affectedness" to causality manip, would any level of layered causality manip be able to overcome the acasuality and excert an effect? If it was a resistance then the answer should be yes, since layered hax = overcoming resistance.

@DontTalkDT @Qawsedf234 any opinions on this ?

 

[Deagonx]

The way I see it, if there is any degree of "unaffected-ness" at all (as per the verse) it would be to the point of immunity since they lack a casual presence all-together (in that casual system). As for this:

I think the hiccup is that this will depend on the mechanism and context of the person using Fate Manip/Causality Manip, etc.

 

[Bobsican]

Thanks to Qawsedf for giving it to me for comment here.

As for the OP, I agree with most of points on the OP, but there are a few points I want to touch, and one of them is that type 4 Acausality will give resistance to causality manipulation and law manipulation by default.

Because this ability is given to us by working in a different cause-effect relationship or being independent of the existing cause-effect system. I think these should grant resistance to all causality and law manipulations that don't work against type 4 Acausality by default. We basically did the same things in Non-duality and type 5 Acausality


Other than that, I agree with that the all other abilities should be specifically mentioned in the verse. Except for these two, others should not be given by default. (Basically, though how limited the capabilities that Type 4 provides us with...)

Well, the thing is that type 4 Acausality can vary a lot in scope and areas it affects, a causality system beind different in one aspect does not necessarily include all of them, DontTalkDT makes a good explanation of that here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright I suppose.

 

[Bobsican]

I think that given 24 hours have passed since the approval of 5 mods (Deagonx, DarkDragonMedeus , DontTalkDT , Qawsedf234 , Catzlaflame) and no objections, this can be applied now.

 

[Deagonx]

I think that given 24 hours have passed since the approval of 5 mods (Deagonx, DarkDragonMedeus , DontTalkDT , Qawsedf234 , Catzlaflame) and no objections, this can be applied now.

We should wait at least till the typical 48 hours.

 

[CloverDragon03]

We should wait at least till the typical 48 hours.

Agreed. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to call anything that's worth being a Staff Discussion thread a "self-evident revision." If anything, I'd like for as many staff to comment as possible.

As for my opinion on the proposal itself, I'm currently refraining from giving a definitive stance, though I'm leaning toward supporting it

 

[Theglassman12]

Why would the causality resistance be something that potentially is given and not just a default thing when the description even implies you function on different levels of cause and effects in the first place?

 

[Bobsican]

Well, the thing is that type 4 Acausality can vary a lot in scope and areas it affects, a causality system beind different in one aspect does not necessarily include all of them, DontTalkDT makes a good explanation of that here.

 

[Deagonx]

Why would the causality resistance be something that potentially is given and not just a default thing when the description even implies you function on different levels of cause and effects in the first place?

It's highly dependent upon what exactly is irregular about that system.

 

[Theglassman12]

The description of type 4 Acausality literally says it operates under an irregular set of cause and effects compared to regular causality, unless you’re changing that completely I don’t see why causality hax wouldn’t be included here.

 

[Deagonx]

As I said, it's highly dependent on what exactly is irregular about that system, as well as what exactly is being manipulated by causality manipulation. Type 4 is too broad to assume it for all examples, and given how many characters have this on our site for incredibly different reasons, it is prudent to annotate that we do not just automatically assume resistance to Causality Manip, Fate Manip, Precog, and others.

 

[Theglassman12]

Why would it being manipulated by causality have a factor with type 4 acausality when it's not about manipulating causality, but functioning under a different cause and effect system in the first place? You're not really answering my question on why is the description literally talking about functioning under different rules of cause and effect when that in of itself is supposed to be an assumption. By the literal description of the ability, Causality hax would fall under the resistance there.

 

[Deagonx]

I am saying that not every qualifying instance of Type 4 Acausality necessarily presents a scenario in which causality manipulation would be resisted, and not all cases of Type 4 represent "different rules of cause and effect" in a broad all-encompassing sense, even relatively limited or vague departures from standard convention can be construed as Type 4, even if they have no basis for resisting causality manipulation. The function of the hypothetical causality manipulation is a factor because that is what we are claiming Type 4 can resist.

Mind you, we haven't even discussed the other two definitive resistances included (Fate Manipulation, Precognition) which are equally specious. It's logical to specify that this is not always resisted by people with Type 4, and that these resistances must themselves be justified and outlined by evidence from the verse rather than extending automatically from an artificial category. It seems we disagree here, but this seems like a very prudent change to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Glass brings up a lot of good points.

 

[Theglassman12]

Them having no basis of resisting it makes no sense when that’s literally in the description of the text on the first place. You can’t have your cake and eat it with how this is going to be handled.

I’m not focusing on Fate hax and Precog atm because they both don’t have the description of fate and precog in your updated explanation, so excuse me if I find this logic to be very questionable.

 

[Deagonx]

Them having no basis of resisting it makes no sense when that’s literally in the description of the text on the first place. You can’t have your cake and eat it with how this is going to be handled.

It isn't in the description. Having an "irregular system of cause and effect" isn't always basis for resistance to Causality Manip, Fate Manip, and Precognition, it depends on what that irregularity actually is.

I’m not focusing on Fate hax and Precog atm because they both don’t have the description of fate and precog in your updated explanation, so excuse me if I find this logic to be very questionable.

The updated description does include Fate Manipulation and Precognition. The only thing that I have changed is whether the resistances are automatic or merely potential (and must be justified for their respective circumstances).

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t removing the automatic resistances that come with Type 4 make the ability functionally useless for some characters? If characters have a version of Type 4 that doesn’t confer any Resistances it seems like a nothingburger power that shouldn’t be listed for them.

 

[Deagonx]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t removing the automatic resistances that come with Type 4 make the ability functionally useless for some characters? If characters have a version of Type 4 that doesn’t warrant any Resistances it seems like a nothingburger power that shouldn’t be listed for them.

It would provide a venue for explaining that character's relationship with cause and effect, even if it did not automatically result in resistances. Type 4 is basically the "catch all" for things that don't fit into the other types, and going through a lot of the justifications, most of them (a) do not have any basis for resisting those things and/or (b) involve characters who are explicitly affected by those abilities, which means users of those abilities in these verses are also getting either layered hax or resistance null on a very silly basis.

Predating time is a pretty common Type 4 justification, but that doesn't mean you are resistant to Fate Manipulation and usually doesn't. Lucifer Morningstar has Type 4 Acausality, but he's still affected by Destiny of the Endless' book, so are we purporting that Destiny has layered hax to justify this, since our standards automatically indicate that Lucifer should be resisting this? The same thing in God of War, the gods who have Type 4 still have threads of Fate on the loom, so the loom must have layered hax or the Fates must have resistance negation.

Et cetera, et cetera. In terms of justifying these automatic resistances, it's easier to find bad examples of Type 4 justifications than it is to find good examples. I believe it has value as a description of their relationship with causality (which in context dependent circumstances can be relevant) or as information that contributes to the other justifications, but automatically giving all of these resistances to every slightly unusual time/causality situation doesn't really make sense.