Type 2 Immortality

[Promestein]

In a couple debates lately I've run into people with conflicting opinions as to the exact definition of Type 2 Immortality.

Resilient Immortality: Characters with this degree of immortality can survive injuries that would otherwise be lethal to a normal person, without needing to heal from it.
This confusion is perhaps inevitable, given the fairly broad definition given here, one that allows someone to argue that a character who survives a lethal injury longer than an ordinary person could, but still dies, qualifies for it.

I'm sure there are quite a few pages that I don't know of that list characters with Type 2 Immortality for temporarily surviving a lethal injury, but those I do know of include some Madness Combat characters. On the other side, there are those who have temporarily survived these things that don't have it, such as SCP-076, Kirei, and probably every, or just the majority of Servants with Battle Continuation.

While I think that only those who can indefinitely survive a lethal injury (such as Hida or Voldemort, barring certain circumstances) should have it, multiple people have disagreed with me on the subject, and I thought it'd be best to make a thread about it.

Note that Type 2 Immortality can certainly be circumvented by extreme destruction such as disintegration in the case of the earlier mentioned Hidan. My issue is with applying Type 2 Immortality to characters who can be killed (even if it takes a while) by a comparatively ordinary injury, such as a simple headshot or having their heart destroyed.

In the event that the broader and more forgiving Type 2 definition is accepted, pages that are affected should specify that they can only survive these injuries temporarily.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Type 2 is just them being unable to die no matter how much damage you do to them but they cant regen from it (To a reasonable extent)

Just surviving a lethal injury for longer than a normal person wouldnt qualify

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not being able to regen from it would imply that Type 2 and 3 are mutually exclusive, which pretty sure they aren't. It's just that Type 2 doesn't necessarily include regen.

Also it says Immortality, so it should be able to permenantly prevent death, not just postpone it. So I agree with this.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Type 2 is getting your head cut off and youre still alive but it doesnt regenerate

Type 3 is getting your head cut off and youre still alive but it does regenerate

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Eh, not neccessarily.

I'd say that Type 3 alone is being able to regen your head. But type 2 and 3 is being able to regen, but you don't need to, since you're still alive. Type 3 alone might require the user to regen in order to keep going normally.

 

[Promestein]

Someone can have Type 2 and 3 Immortality. It depends. Jason has it because he can survive injuries without regenerating, he just ends up regenerating eventually anyways. And he can still survive the injuries he can't regenerate from.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I personally believe that permanently surviving in a damaged state isn't necessary for this, considering it literally isn't part of the definition. The whole idea is that users can survive normally lethal harm without Regenerationn, with no mention of being able to be around forever in this state.

The argument of "it's immortality so it must be permanent to count" makes no sense when people have type 3 immortality with regen that can be actively burnt out, limited self-resurrection or resurrection from outside sources, not brought back by something they are reliant on or the avatar of as many times as necessary, etc.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's not surviving if you eventually die from your wounds. That's just stamina.

Regenerationn and other such form of healing aren't comparable to Type 2 in this case. Type 2 is a lot more like Type 1 in that regard.

And here, it'd be like if Longevity was Type 1 immortality. Sure in both cases you can live beyond what normal humans can live, but it's hardly immortality if it just makes you die a little latter.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

what about being able to run for a long time lets you survive having your head caved in?

 

[Promestein]

That's a really simplistic definition of Stamina that doesn't match up with how the wiki treats it. Otherwise Baki would have shit Stamina because he couldn't do that 100 or 200m dash on account of his specialized stamina and muscle training.

Stamina applies to both physical and mental endurance.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

lemme rephrase that then

what part of endurance allows you to survive having your head caved in, when literally no part of endurance has anything to do with that sort of thing?

also that Baki thing is a hilarious anti-feat and the series has a tendency to downplay itself

 

[Promestein]

In many cases characters are able to temporarily survive these injuries on account of willpower, which falls under the mental side of stamina.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I mean fair, but again

"2: Resilient Immortality: Characters with this degree of immortality can survive injuries that would otherwise be lethal to a normal person, without needing to heal from it."

Definition says **** all about being able to permanent live in a wounded state

 

[Promestein]

Yes, the broad definition, which people disagree about, is why this thread exists. You don't need to keep on citing it. This thread is about changing it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's not surviving if you die from it.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

It's surviving if you don't instantly die from having your head turned into a fleshy donut

 

[DMUA]

I always took it as surviving something that should instantly kill you

Like, pulling an Aegis and just walking through getting impaled through the chest, that's Type 2, what isn't type 2 is having your ribcage shatter and pieces of it piercing your internal organs and still getting up

Which sounds a lot more confusing now that it's out of my head but eh

 

[Antvasima]

Promestein seems to make sense regarding that we likely need to make the definition somewhat stricter.

 

[Promestein]

Bumping this.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

From what I understand it's like your body can take severe punishment and, through unknown means, individual parts will stay alive and act independently.

A common trope is the body and the head operating independently from one another trying to find each other and put themselves back together.

Here's a rough version on how to word it: "The ability to continue living in a normally fatal state without dieing indefinitely (Such as being blown to pieces). Characters can continue to take bodily harm, but may be rendered into a state where they can't harm their opponent"

 

[Promestein]

The issue is whether temporarily surviving a lethal wound, but still surviving longer than a normal human could, counts.

 

[The_Impress]

I don't think surviving lethal injuries longer than ordinary people should qualify as anything to be honest, save for stamina. Mainly because authors don't exactly think about someone just surviving an exaggerated wound longer as being biologically implausible most of the time, or at least not something which warrants any sort of immortal aspects.

I agree with Promestein's assesment in the OP that it should only apply to characters who have been able to indefinitely survive from these wounds, and frankly any feats otherwise are just stamina feats of the character

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I agree with Zark. I think the key word here is "indefinitely".

 

[Antoniofer]

Limbs acting independently is optional, losing the head and unable to control the rest of the body wouldn't disqualify the user from having that power.

So I believe Type 2 is Impossible State Survival, the ability to remain alive despite being in physical conditions where death should happens.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with Zark. I think the key word here is "indefinitely".

I pretty much agree.

 

[Antvasima]

Promestein seems to make sense regarding that we likely need to make the definition somewhat stricter.

So does anybody here have any practical suggestions?

 

[Promestein]

Bumping this.

My suggestion;

Characters with this degree of immortality can indefinitely survive injuries that would otherwise be lethal to a normal person, without needing to heal.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I agree with Prom's suggestion

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine, yes.

 

[Elizhaa]

^^

I agree.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Agree with the suggestion; a lot less vague.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we apply Promestein's suggestion then?

 

[Promestein]

I'd like more input, the people who wanted type 2 to encompass temporary feats of this magnitude didn't really respond again

 

[Moritzva]

I do agree that Type 2 should only being able to survive for incredibly long or indefinite periods of time.

Though, that brings a question: would there be a power for surviving deadly wounds for short periods of time? It's a factor that can be incredibly impactful in matches, in my experience, but wouldn't be supported well with the new definition.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Saikou, people can have type 2 and 3, it's just you don't need Type 3 to be Type 2.

 

[Promestein]

I do agree that Type 2 should only being able to survive for incredibly long or indefinite periods of time.

Though, that brings a question: would there be a power for surviving deadly wounds for short periods of time? It's a factor that can be incredibly impactful in matches, in my experience, but wouldn't be supported well with the new definition.

I usually see that listed as a stamina feat.

 

[Antvasima]

I'd like more input, the people who wanted type 2 to encompass temporary feats of this magnitude didn't really respond again

Okay. No problem.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

To play devil's advocate, lets look at the Battle Continuation skill in Fate:

Rank EX - King Hassan: This swordsman who is no longer certain whether he is alive or dead, even if he receives a fatal wound or loses half of his body for example, will keep snapping at the enemy as if he was in perfectly good health.

Rank A+ - Shuten-douji: Combat is possible even after receiving a decisive fatal wound; even if her head is decapitated, as it is based on the folklore where she attacked Minamoto no Raikou.

Rank A - Leonidas: Doesn't know when to give up. Makes it possible to fight even with deadly injuries and can remain alive so long as one does not receive a decisive fatal wound.

Rank EX is definetly Type 2 Immortality. Under Promestein's suggestion, Rank A (survive minor deadly wounds) and Rank A+ (survive minor deadly wounds, and briefly survive decisive deadly wounds) would be stamina feats, but Rank A and Rank A+ could fit in the current definition of Type 2 Immortality. Anyone thinks Rank A and Rank A+ should count as Type 2?

I think a good compromise is to have things like a character briefly surviving a stab through the heart under Body Control.

 

[Elizhaa]

Rank EX is definetly Type 2 Immortality. Under Promestein's suggestion, Rank A (survive minor deadly wounds) and Rank A+ (survive minor deadly wounds, and briefly survive decisive deadly wounds) would be stamina feats, but Rank A and Rank A+ could fit in the current definition of Type 2 Immortality. Anyone thinks Rank A and Rank A+ should count as Type 2?

> I think only Rank EX - King Hassa should be Type 2 Immortality.

I think a good compromise is to have things like a character briefly surviving a stab through the heart under Body Control.

> I think the feat being stamina feat works better, in most contexts. If more contexts are given, Body Control involing Control of basic functions can work especially for cases like Rank A and A+ mentioned above.

 

[Promestein]

I dunno if that would be Body Control. They're not controlling anything.