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Two On One Battles Being Added to Profiles.

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Maybe, but like I said, I see no problem with creating seperate profiles and adding each other under standard equipment.
 
Another related example would be Master Chief and his AI companion Cortana. Master Chief can fight without Cortana, and did so for most of his career, however, the former needs Chief to properly function, and most of the time in the most recognized canon and stories, they fight together.
 
Just a reminder that the intended conclusion to this thread should be to write a concise and well-considered new versus thread rule without any potentially harmful consequences.
 
@Versus

It's yet another example of some duos being allowed, but not others.

@Mand

I personally think it would be too much to list in the others section, and it actually would be confusing to new users who don't know about said characters. Another character in a similar position would be Lelouch. Ordinarily, he would be able to use several nightmares and subordinates as standard equipment even without his geass.
 
Here's what I think:

in cases where your companion is integrated with you in some form or fashion, they can be created under the guise of a single profile. This would apply to Link and Navi, Master Chief and Cortana, or characters from Soul Eater. You can identify these cases because there is usually a distinguished "main" character equipped with a "side" character. The main character can usually function seperately from the side character, though the side character cannot.

In cases where your companion is not integrated with you, but you two are usually working together or your fighting style and abilities solely depend on each other, they need seperate pages but can be added to each others standard equipment, so long as they meet the previously discussed criteria. This would apply to characters like the Ice Climbers, or Pokemon Trainer. You can identify these cases because there is usually no "main" character, and the two can both function seperately from each other to a degree. (This is where Pokemon Trainer would go under, because he incorporates his fighting style with various PKMN)

Does this sound reasonable?
 
Just a reminder that the intended conclusion to this thread should be to write a concise and well-considered new versus thread rule without any potentially harmful consequences.

I'm not very good at writing concise explanations...So I humbly ask someone else to take on that responsibility.

@Professor

Looks good.
 
It is usually best if some staff member handles it after people have come to some sort of agreement.

I will however put down a veto for an adjustment if it is something that is potentially harmful for the wiki.
 
ProfessorLord said:
in cases where your companion is integrated with you in some form or fashion, they can be created under the guise of a single profile. This would apply to Link and Navi, Master Chief and Cortana, or characters from Soul Eater. You can identify these cases because there is usually a distinguished "main" character equipped with a "side" character. The main character can usually function seperately from the side character, though the side character cannot.

In cases where your companion is not integrated with you, but you two are usually working together or your fighting style and abilities solely depend on each other, they need seperate pages but can be added to each others standard equipment, so long as they meet the previously discussed criteria. This would apply to characters like the Ice Climbers, or Pokemon Trainer. You can identify these cases because there is usually no "main" character, and the two can both function seperately from each other to a degree. (This is where Pokemon Trainer would go under, because he incorporates his fighting style with various PKMN)
Click to expand...
This sounds reasonable, Sora and Shiro fall into the second category.

I'm guessing they should add each other to their standard equipments and battles against them would come in a formact like "Blank [linking to thread] (No Game, No Life) [linking to verse] Sora and Shiro's Profiles"? Like, the battle log would link to multiple profiles.

But yeah, it's reasonable. However, it seems like after being accepted it might still need a small amount of case by case analysis.
 
at first i thought this was for team battles but after reading through, this thread should actually discuss if characters can be equipment.
 
I don't understand why we're so strict about this.

Half the fun of doing fictional character fights is putting fictional characters from different franchises together, so why not allow different characters from different franchises team up as well? It shouldn't be misleading as long as you actually mention who was fighting alongside them.
 
I believe it stems from this wiki ultimately opting for what's easiest while still being accurate, rather than being what's most accurate even if it may be difficult to write and setup. Just my opinion though.

So how does a wiki proposal become accepted?
 
@ArbitraryNumbers

There is no point to allowing random battles in the first place if the participants are uneven and one part does all of the work. It would not be informative at all for visitors. We can however make an exception if there is a canon team for which the unevenness is the intended point.
 
@ProfessorLord

Ideally the staff evaluate all the arguments, come to a conclusion, and write a suggestion for a new rule. Then I may or may not suggest a cleaned up version with improved text flow, and then the other staff members verify if they find it acceptable. Then we insert the new regulation into the Versus Thread Rules page.
 
If I may give my own, humble opinion on this.

When it comes 2 vs. 1 Matches that can be added I don't see a problem with are either characters that are at their strongest together (Master Chief and Cortana) or have a long standing history of working with each other (Batman and the various Batfamily).

At least with those kind of duos/teams we have an understanding of how they work with each other and what each brings to the table for such a team.

Having characters form duos that we never seen or have no precedent for would lead to way too much speculation and uneven results. As pointed out, one character can end doing all the work and carry the team. That could even end up happening with canonical/established duos, so why we would exacerbate that issue with truly hypthothetical teams, I don't know.

Just my two cents on the matter and not aimed at anyone in particular.
 
Yeah, this is basically a rule of "battles with relevant duos can be added. Teams larger than two are quite the stretch tho"

Maybe we can have that wolf men team from Dragon Ball Super have in standard equipment something like "May equip any of the other members of the team such as... *hyperlinked names*" in order to allow duos to be formed among them but using the entire team would be disallowed as by that point too many edits would be required and we might as well create a class of profiles for teams.
 
TheC2 said:
When it comes 2 vs. 1 Matches that can be added I don't see a problem with are either characters that are at their strongest together (Master Chief and Cortana) or have a long standing history of working with each other (Batman and the various Batfamily). At least with those kind of duos/teams we have an understanding of how they work with each other and what each brings to the table for such a team.

Having characters form duos that we never seen or have no precedent for would lead to way too much speculation and uneven results. As pointed out, one character can end doing all the work and carry the team. That could even end up happening with canonical/established duos, so why we would exacerbate that issue with truly hypthothetical teams, I don't know.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this is basically a rule of "battles with relevant duos can be added. Teams larger than two are quite the stretch tho"

Maybe we can have that wolf men team from Dragon Ball Super have in standard equipment something like "May equip any of the other members of the team such as... *hyperlinked names*" in order to allow duos to be formed among them but using the entire team would be disallowed as by that point too many edits would be required and we might as well create a class of profiles for teams.

(Which actually got me excited to think of, as it allows something inbetween characters and civilizations, where each "tab", normally used for switching between pictures of characters, would also switch the entire character stats, keeping the "notable matches" unique for the team, just like the description/introduction. But I guess this would already be too much work? =/ It would basically be for teams three or larger which are not entire civilizations or species, but which apply to the rule for duos. In this case the characters themselves would only exist as membes of the team, since that's how they fight)
 
I feel like that would only overcomplicate things. Just create a category for the team and link that one when adding the match, without cluttering the profiles
 
RKGenki said:
I feel like that would only overcomplicate things. Just create a category for the team and link that one when adding the match, without cluttering the profiles
Click to expand...
Why not make a profile for the team, delete the original profiles (since they only fight as a team) and whenever we have a solo fight the log says "Only character X fought, speed equalized", for example?

Well, I guess that's for the staff to evaluate (how much work they're going to get from this), but I guess the idea itself has come to a consensus, right? We're going to do it, somehow.
 
I never said we should make two profiles for the same characters. I even said that profiles for teams is an overcomplication. A category named after the team linked to the members' profiles is more than enough to cover this issue
 
Oh, I see. But:

1. Wouldn't this flood the site with too many categories?

2. Would these categories have their own "Notable Matches" section?

3. Would there be an explicit and easily accessible link to the categories in the characters's profiles?
 
1-I don't think there would be an issue, it's not like there are thousands upon thousands of teams that would be made

2-Idk if it can be made for categories. If it can then np, if not just link the match to the profiles. We could also do both if needed

3-Of course
 
There could be hundreds, though. But if it ultimately poses no problem, I wholeheartedly agree with your solution, since it's a, uh, visually lightweight solution. Categories can be linked as topics for discussion, am I right? If so, making versus threads with them would not be so hard.

Yes, this should be done.

What do you guys think? Rather than standard equipment, a standard of making categories from teams, but to make a team category you'd need to follow the "team-making rules" and be insertable into the second category of team or similar case.
 
I like C2's suggestion that only characters who have a history of working together should have matches added, since we would have no idea how the characters would interact otherwise.

I don't particularly like the idea of making profiles specifically for teams should the characters fight on their own.

Profiles like Shirou Emiya and Saber should be kept separate even though the characters themselves are almost always together.
 
TheC2's points are presently kind of a given for us. We're working on how to apply them. Like RK said, categories are a more "lightweight" approach to all of that. Not as lightweight as putting it on standard equipment, but makes more sense and allows for a simpler adding of matches and all that. It also allows us to create a standard model and speciifc rules for team categories.

The worst kind of "cancer" (or kinds of snowball that Antvasima seems to be fearful of) that could happen to team categories would be them being used as a sort of substitute for civilization profiles where possible (such as a category being made for an army rather than a civ profile in case the user doesn't know how to/is too lazy to check more details on that army's territories and origins), but that seems counterable and not a huge problem.

Also, Team Categories might have a format, that's right. It will probably be much simpler than a profile format, but there will be one, so the end result of this thread might not be a Versus Threads Rule.
 
i dont like that idea of making new profiles either. Just use the seperate ones and maybe add a new tab or something for team loses and team wins
 
We obviously can't be starting a project to add all of these categories, but I don't see any harm with the category suggestion.

I heavily disagree with putting the team thing on Standard Equipment, since that would be equivalent to listing every summon a character has as "standard equipment" when it's closer to a technique.

The only time I would agree with that is if a character has a particular familiar or other subordinate that can be summoned on a whim. For instance, the aforementioned Shirou Emiya and Saber.
 
@Reppuzan there's a difference between summoning a character in the middle of a match and having a partner start the fight with you. Usually summons have no character page of their own and are summarized on the summoners page.

However, partners like Nana and Popo have their own pages (I think, they should) and aren't "summoned" at all. Some partners even have unique abilities from each other. Ultimately they can function as separate characters, summons cannot.

TLDR if they have to be summoned they cant fight on their own. No need to list every single summon as standard equipment as well, they don't have have their own character pages.
 
I don't like the idea of having keys with other characters, I feel like a profile page is solely dedicated to one person, not a group. Wolf gang from DBS should have separate pages with their own stats listed and have each other under standard equipment. Why? They've demonstrated they can fight without each other even if their fighting style is stronger fighting together. Functionally they use each other as equipment
 
@Professor

Characters like the Ice Climbers should be listed together the way Twinrova is because they're never seen apart. That I can agree with.

But if the characters are standalone, they should have separate profiles even if they work together frequently.
 
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