TSSDK: Some Upgrades and Downgrades

[Elizhaa]

Yeah, the Kijin group and Treyni would still be Large Mountain level as a safe tier (or perhaps add an "At least"). We can include "Became stronger after training with Milim Nava" to indicate that they increased their strength post Orc Lord.
I think training with Milim in context would really result to increased strength. I remember in the Empire Arc where Milim was willing to give special training to Karion and Frey to turn them into Awakened Demon Lords, so that is something.
That's fair, but with that I think Option B would be the best option since it makes stuff more consistent regarding Karion, so several Post Harvest Festival characters would be bumped to Island level as well, mostly those that I mentioned earlier. However, there would be changes based on this scaling.

• We can include "Became stronger after training with Milim Nava" to indicate that they increased their strength post-Orc Lord.
  • I think it should be included. I recalled reading it before but I forgot about it much since I thought later though the explaination happened in the Web Novel, instead; it is an easy feat to forget if not looking for it and help the statement help make power scaling make more sense.

EDIT: Also, the Ten Great Saints would be bumped to Island level as well, no? Since they're comparable to Clayman via Hinata's statements. They obviously didn't stand a chance against Shion (Reynald Jesta IIRC) and Souei (Glenda Adley) though so they just downscale. Sare being only second to Hinata IIRC scales.
Charybdis's Durability would also stay at Island level probably.

I meant since Sare is only second to Hinata in the Ten Saint's pecking order, it would scale him to Glenda. Most of them would just downscale in some way because they either don't have much feats or can only briefly keep up and is ultimately overwhelmed and outclassed. And yeah obviously Diablo is tiers above Sare.
We also had that Grigori guy who at least was able to take some attacks from Ranga before being crushed (or munched lol).

• It seems like they should be this level I remember Sare has an additional statement that implies that he is stronger than Roy Valentine as Sare was closed to killing before Valentine escaped (Volume 7 chapter 6). While the Sages could have the same tier, they are still weaker than Hinata.

She could be At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level with Spirit Fusion/Sylphide. That's how she harmed Laplace and most likely Charybdis as well. I think Gamer mentioned how her spirit fusion also boosted her near Charys's level in future volumes which is consistent with how much it powers her up. I don't have access to the MTLs at the moment though.

It's also worth noting that Laplace's durability can get really vague, and he has been described to be unkillable multiple times with the weird abilities he has.

• The new tier sounds fine; this tier or At least Large Mountain level+, likely Island level with Spirit Fusion/Sylphide if Option B is used.
• Laplace does look to have some form of regeneration or immortality in volume 14 mtls. Newton's third law for Laplace's physical attacks dictate he is at least durable to his physical attacks; he, at least, seems to be 6-C in durability for being Roy Valentine when he used his full power.

Should we scale the other Fair Onis to Shion? This would exclude Shuna (apparently she should be slower than them according to the profiles before).

I would say probably not. I am leaning for no for now. From what I know, I believe Shion trained more than the other Oni. I think it could good to wait for more volume for proper comparison.

 

[Metalballrun]

I think it should be included. I recalled reading it before but I forgot about it much since I thought later though the explaination happened in the Web Novel, instead; it is an easy feat to forget if not looking for it and help the statement help make power scaling make more sense.

So perhaps Shion, Benimaru, Souei, and Hakurou being "Large Mountain level, likely higher" due to the first two being described to be capable of giving Treyni a run for her money, and Hakuro being the only one to competently fight against Milim (although it was mostly due to technique). Shion would also be included as Shuna and Souei stated that the only one stronger than her is Benimaru (Volume 4, Chapter 1). Correct me if I'm wrong.

If so, this would also boost Alvis, Sufia, and Phobio to "Large Mountain level" at their base due to scaling with the Kijin group, since Shion fought on equal grounds with Sufia (who had more magicules than Shion) months after their training with Milim (Volume 4, Chapter 1). Gruecith has also stated that the Beastkeeters are comparable to Benimaru (Volume 5, Chapter 5).

Even at first sight, the danger this Arch Demon presented was obvious. He felt an overwhelming sense of awe—like what he felt whenever he saw Benimaru or the Three Lycanthropeers. Maybe even more powerful.

It seems like they should be this level I remember Sare has an additional statement that implies that he is stronger than Roy Valentine as Sare was closed to killing before Valentine escaped (Volume 7 chapter 6). While the Sages could have the same tier, they are still weaker than Hinata.

Oh yeah, this should confirm that they're 6-C if that's true. And yeah, they would still be weaker than Sage Hinata since she fought and defeated both Roy and Louis at the same time.

• The new tier sounds fine; this tier or At least Large Mountain level+, likely Island level with Spirit Fusion/Sylphide if Option B is used.
• Laplace does look to have some form of regeneration or immortality in volume 14 mtls. Newton's third law for Laplace's physical attacks dictate he is at least durable to his physical attacks; he, at least, seems to be 6-C in durability for being Roy Valentine when he used his full power.

Edit: Treyni's 1st Key at her base only scales to Beretta's 2.1 Gigatons so it's likely she should just remain as At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level.
Laplace always gets hurt but it should be fine to have 6-C in both AP and dura.

I would say probably not. I am leaning for no for now. From what I know, I believe Shion trained more than the other Oni. I think it could good to wait for more volume for proper comparison.

That's fair, but the problem is where to put their speed. I can't imagine them to be any weaker.
Benimaru doesn't have much combat feats ever since Post Harvest Festival.
Souei only has that one time fighting Glenda Adley (Volume 10).
Hakuro is sidelined for what he always does. Shuna meanwhile actually defeated Kai IIRC (Volume 10).
Ranga actually fought Karion and their speed is comparable (Volume 9), but after that, Ranga had a training with Milim which made him stronger, and potentially faster. So I don't know if they should scale.

There's also a possibility that Razul isn't as fast as Granbell and the rest, only stronger. He only fights Shion, Ranga, and Diablo, all don't really have Relativistic+ feats aside from Diablo using Disintegration during his fight against Rain. But we usually treat one character being superior than the other as referring to all stats in general, so I don't really know lol

Should their speed just be Unknown for now? Or Unknown, possibly Relativistic+?
This would affect several profiles of Post Harvest Festival people (obv Far Onis, Geld, and the others), Demon Lord Class individuals (Karion, Clayman, Roy, Laplace, etc.), and Ten Great Saints level (Hinata, Glenda, Sare).

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Nice, nice, I like this. I would say At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level for the Kijin's for being able to give Treyni some trouble, though.

 

[Metalballrun]

I don't think that would be the case, since Treyni is only "At least Large Mountain level". Her Island level rating is with her unifying with Sylphide that gives her a boost, which Rimuru doesn't even know about until by the middle of Volume 4 (he makes the comparison with the Kjins in Volume 3's Epilogue). So" "Large Mountain level, likely higher" likely is the safest choice.
But well, let's wait for Elizhaa or CP. Might be making a mistake again.
Made a few edits removing "at least" from the Kijins.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That's fine.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Also, not sure if this is still being discussed, but after rereading some of the manga and reaching Veldora states Hinata is superior to Gazel, and "if the conditions are right" can single-handedly beat Charybdis.

Hakurou also has info analysis with Heavensgaze.

 

[Metalballrun]

Also, not sure if this is still being discussed, but after rereading some of the manga and reaching Veldora states Hinata is superior to Gazel, and "if the conditions are right" can single-handedly beat Charybdis.

Do you have any scans for that? I know that's a true but I cant find those Veldora Journals anywhere.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Do you have any scans for that? I know that's a true but I cant find those Veldora Journals anywhere.

I'll try and find it, but it was directly after the fight with Hinata and Rimuru in the manga. If you go like one chapter further and scroll down to the end, I think you'll find the entry there.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Found it. Veldora states Hinata>Gazel & Charybdis.

 

[Metalballrun]

Speed Downgrades 2

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I should probably bring up that with Fritz presumably being incapable of perceiving Hinata vs Rimuru (whom as far as this thread goes we have accepted to be downgraded to Relativistic+) then that would make the Ten Great Saints (or at least those present in the Vol. 7 final battle, like Reynald Jesta) to not be Relativistic+ in combat speed at all. Reynald, Arno, Ritase, and Fritz were all casually bodied by Granbell as well.

Hinata's Major Speed Feats that I can gather are:

• Rimuru comparing her attack speed to Milim's, being extremely fast even with Rimuru's Thought Acceleration. She can further increase her speed combined with her sword skills and Prediction Simulation, that Rimuru can't see her movements clearly, eventually needing an overpowered skill called Predict Future Attack to counter her. Hinata deduced that Predict Future Attack was superior to her Prediction Simulation as it seemed to almost predict the literal future.
• Hinata's Melt Slash being described as unavoidable and really fast by Rimuru and Raphael.
• Old Granbell uses Melt Slash to Nicolas and the Saints, Hinata was able to block and intercept his sword slash in time.
• Hinata dodges Young Granbell's Melt Slash
• Hinata intercepts the Melt Slash meant for Chloe O'Bell. Considering that Chloe was in a different direction and angle, this was quite impressive as she might've crossed some distance to intercept a relativistic/LS attack (she was previously blown away in a clash against Granbell).

So at the very least, we can confirm that Saint Hinata (and in turn, Rimuru, Granbell, and Ruminas) are all Relativistic+. Razul was never stated to be as fast, but was considered to be stronger than Old Granbell who was around even with Hinata in speed and strength while Young Granbell was stronger but not necessarily faster. So if Razul scales to their speed, so would Shion and likely Ranga as well (I don't have time right now so can't analyze their fight). Diablo could use Disintegration and implies he can dodge it at least, so he might scale as well.

If we're not going to scale anyone else to them, then a lot of profiles like the other Fair Onis and Tempest executives will have Unknown speed ratings. I'd argue that Sage Hinata's speed should also be either Unknown or At least Massively Hypersonic, likely far higher since she should scale to Glenda who was able to fight Souei (although both would have Unknown speed ratings too, so I'm not really sure). Similarly, Demon Lord Class beings like the Clown Troupe, the new gen Demon Lords (Karion, Frey, Clayman), Treyni, Charys, and so on would get Unknown as well.

Suggestions for their speed ratings are appreciated.

 

[Metalballrun]

Found it. Veldora states Hinata>Gazel & Charybdis.

Thanks, it's a great supporting statement for 6-C Sage Hinata.

 

[Elizhaa]

So perhaps Shion, Benimaru, Souei, and Hakurou being "Large Mountain level, likely higher" due to the first two being described to be capable of giving Treyni a run for her money, and Hakuro being the only one to competently fight against Milim (although it was mostly due to technique). Shion would also be included as Shuna and Souei stated that the only one stronger than her is Benimaru (Volume 4, Chapter 1). Correct me if I'm wrong.

If so, this would also boost Alvis, Sufia, and Phobio to "At least Large Mountain level" at their base due to scaling with the Kijin group, since Shion fought on equal grounds with Sufia (who had more magicules than Shion) months after their training with Milim (Volume 4, Chapter 1). Gruecith has also stated that the Beastkeeters are comparable to Benimaru (Volume 5, Chapter 5).

To be fair, the rating can remain the same going from Option B but with the justifications expanded upon; I am not against this option.

Oh yeah, this should confirm that they're 6-C if that's true. And yeah, they would still be weaker than Sage Hinata since she fought and defeated both Roy and Louis at the same time.

Sounds fine.

Oh yeah, this should confirm that they're 6-C if that's true. And yeah, they would still be weaker than Sage Hinata since she fought and defeated both Roy and Louis at the same time.

Sounds fine, as well.

Should their speed just be Unknown for now? Or Unknown, possibly Relativistic+?
This would affect several profiles of Post Harvest Festival people (obv Far Onis, Geld, and the others), Demon Lord Class individuals (Karion, Clayman, Roy, Laplace, etc.), and Ten Great Saints level (Hinata, Glenda, Sare).

I roughly still have the same opinions. You probably should ask CP on the topic of speed.

I don't think that would be the case, since Treyni is only "At least Large Mountain level". Her Island level rating is with her unifying with Sylphide that gives her a boost, which Rimuru doesn't even know about until by the middle of Volume 4 (he makes the comparison with the Kjins in Volume 3's Epilogue). So" "Large Mountain level, likely higher" likely is the safest choice.
But well, let's wait for Elizhaa or CP. Might be making a mistake again.
Made a few edits removing "at least" from the Kijins.

Basically, my thoughts are the same as the first point I made in this reply.

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Overall and keeping this point briefs, the changes from Option B can be added since CP have no problem with option B and there is stronger evidence that it applies.

I can ping CP to help. @Celestial_Pegasus , what are your recent thoughts on the speed and AP?

 

[Metalballrun]

To be fair, the rating can remain the same going from Option B but with the justifications expanded upon; I am not against this option.

Yeah, I agree.
Since Treyni is really only "At least Large Mountain level" without Unify, the Kijin group and the Beastkeeters can remain at just "Large Mountain level". Rethinking it, I believe a "likely higher" would seem unnecessary.

I'll add the AP changes once we reach a consensus for the Speed downgrades so that the edits is in one go.

For now, I think those who doesn't scale to the Relativistic+ characters either have Unknown speed, or At least Massively Hypersonic, likely far higher.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I mean if we have no evidence of how the others stack up to Shion and Ranga Post Harvest Festival, then yea their speeds shouldn't scale, as for how it should be listed, at the very least they are MHS, so i think At least Massively Hypersonic should suffice.

I mean if Fritz who is one of the 10 saints from what i remember can't perceive Hinata and Rimuru's movements, really puts a damper on ppl around that level even possibly scaling to Relativistic+. Shion and Ranga would clearly be exceptions, though obviously in later volumes others probably will scale to them, just not atm.

I mean we know Frtiz and co trained in the labyrinth so if they do get a feat of scaling later, it would make sense.

The ap suggestions are fine with me.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am neutral but I would be fine with CP's proposed speed update.

 

[Metalballrun]

Well, in Volume 9, Ranga and Karion were fighting in comparable speed. However, Ranga had training with Milim after that, and continued to be exposed to Rimuru's youki in shadow space, so he continuously got stronger and potentially faster.

I made a quick skim of Shion and Ranga vs Razul though, and it seems like Ranga doesn't even need to scale to Razul necessarily. All he did was hide in the shadows and try to attack Razul, and Razul dodged all of his attacks. Shion was the only one who would scale to due fighting Razul head on, attacking and defending. Although Ranga still contributed a lot to that fight. Maybe Ranga's speed should be "At least Massively Hypersonic, possibly Relativistic+"? I'm not sure though.

As for the Perception Speed rating, I suppose we should remove them for now?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree with the first section.

 

[Metalballrun]

Alright. I think I've already added, removed, and changed all of the accepted changes in this thread.

The perception speed stuff is removed for now, especially since it seems to be within Relativistic+ range regardless. Although those like Benimaru who has the same Mind Accelerate as Rimuru might get Relativistic+ perception speed? Most of them don't have that kind of feats however as far as I know.

Aside from that, and some concerns for Ranga's speed that I brought up above, the revisions are more or less complete.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I thought Yuuki was gonna be upgraded to 6-A with Greedy One?

 

[Metalballrun]

I thought Yuuki was gonna be upgraded to 6-A with Greedy One?

He currently doesn't have much feats with Greedy One that would suggest he's 6-A. So likely higher with Greedy One should suffice like with Mariabell's. It's hax based anyways.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Didin't he destroy Rimuru's arm? Unless i am misremembering the fight

 

[Elizhaa]

Yuuki was supposed to 6-A with Greedy One, yes; Yuuki cut one of Rimuru's arm off so it would be a 6-A feat via powerscaling (Volume 11 Chapter 5).

On Maribelle's case, there is this statement but I am not sure; though, Maribelle did give her powers with Greedy One to Yuuki with Greedy (Volume 11 Chapter 5); I guess likely still work

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Greedy One boosts the user based on the quality of their soul from what i remember, Yuuki>Mariabell in that department, hence why Mariabell couldn't do anything to Rimuru while Yuuki, it was a lot closer, though obviously Yuuki anti-skill is a factor too.

That statement about Mariabell you posted is her death hax, so doesn't scale to tier.

 

[Elizhaa]

That statement about Mariabell you posted is her death hax, so doesn't scale to tier.

Sorry for the confusion, the part that I wanted to focus where the blow not really the death hax.

Greedy One boosts the user based on the quality of their soul from what i remember, Yuuki>Mariabell in that department, hence why Mariabell couldn't do anything to Rimuru while Yuuki, it was a lot closer, though obviously Yuuki anti-skill is a factor too.

I guess this interpretation makes more sense. It feels vague to me earlier since it was described she transferred her strength to Yuuki (Volume 11 Chapter 5).

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Well exchanging blows might not be enough as she got easily dealt with from what i remember, but maybe you could make the argument she scales but to a lesser state due to being able to exchange blows with Rimuru, neutral on that.

Pretty sure it was said that Kai who was boosted by Mariabell is weaker than her because as an otherwordler her soul is stronger.

 

[Elizhaa]

Pretty sure it was said that Kai who was boosted by Mariabell is weaker than her because as an otherwordler her soul is stronger.

Yes, I guess it makes more sense; she would be 6-C with the new tier proposed, at base.

Well exchanging blows might not be enough as she got easily death with from what i remember, but maybe you could make the arguement she scales but to a lesser state due to being able to exchange blows with Rimuru, neutral on that.

It's an interpretation that I could see being the case. Though, I am neutral as well, on the topic

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Why would she be 6-C at Base?

From what i remember, she was confident she could handle Demon Lord Breeds, and Rimuru too though it would be a tough fight, she just got low diff cause she didn't know he had awakened.

Also Damrada i think was cautious of only 2 ppl in the continent, Mariabell and Yuuki? Or was it Razul, forgot, i guess you could put her at 6-C for those reasons.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ones with Greedy One should be 6-A.

 

[Elizhaa]

She would be stronger than Kai who Carillon even would have issues dealing with who would be 6-C after the changes. Currently, it seems like Demon Breeds characters scaled at 6-C, going from what discussed earlier on the tier.


Also Damrada i think was cautious of only 2 ppl in the continent, Mariabell and Yuuki? Or was it Razul, forgot, i guess you could put her at 6-C for those reasons.

• On the Damrada's case, I am not sure' I will up read up.

 

[Elizhaa]

Ones with Greedy One should be 6-A.

Maribelle seems weaker than Yuuki since her soul's strength looks weaker. I could probably see High 6-B being a thing for her, though.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Elizhaa The Kai and Carillion comparison is made after Kai was boosted by Greedy One, and while Mariabell is stronger that's in reference to her also burning her soul with Greedy One to boost herself, not her Base.

Indeed, when a demon lord became serious, it was an opponent that even Mariabell couldn’t underestimate. Mariabell had strengthened Kai to her fullest capabilities. He was stronger than third-rate majin. His abilities were already beyond that of humans. In fact, even demon lords such as Frey or Karion would fall into a hard battle against Kai. After all, Mariabell had burnt all of Kai’s remaining life force and soul to allow him to wield such incredible strength. But alas—Demon Lord Rimuru sent Kai to hell with a flick of his hand, as if he were casually burning trash. That’s how unfathomably large the chasm in between their power levels was. This wasn’t an adult versus a child, their difference was like an elephant to an ant. Mariabell’s soul possessed power greater than Kai’s. Having survived the reincarnation across worlds, she had reached an abnormal state of being. Even so, Mariabell still thought the demon lord posed a significant threat.-Volume 10, Chapter 5

I did find the Damrada statement though that says that he is only wary of Hinata, Razul and Mariabell, so i do think 6-C is fine for her Base, neutral on Greedy One being 6-A though.

The Count of the Sidel Border was in charge of safeguarding the northern realm of Ingracia Kingdom. The land had been protected by a guardian for generations.
This guardian wore a mask and armor that covered him from head to toe. No one knew about his true identity, and he was a mystery who answered directly to Granbell. Even though he was not one of the Five Great Elders, anyone who knew about him wouldn’t dare cross him.
Yuuki originally heard about this masked man from Damrada. “Even Damrada said ‘though I haven’t actually fought the guy, I’m not sure I would win’. It’s quite telling of his strength. After all, Damrada had only spoken highly of Hinata and no one else.”
To Yuuki’s knowledge, there were only three people within the Western Nations that Damrada was wary of: Hinata, Mariabell, and that man.-Volume 11, Chapter 11

 

[Elizhaa]

Got it, on the info, and thanks for it.

6-C is fine for her Base, then. Noted on Greedy One being 6-A, CP, now; my view is that I am not against it being added.

 

[Metalballrun]

I forgot that Mariabell boosted Yuuki with Greedy One. I guess that works making him 6-A with it.
It should be noted that Anti-Skill removed all of Rimuru's defenses so he just kind of downscales, I don't think he could've harmed Rimuru without disabling his skills.
He matched physical strikes and sword strikes with Rimuru, and was one-shot by Rimuru's Storm Breaker sword slash.
So Yuuki would be "Island level (comparable to Shion), Continent level with Greedy One (Capable of matching blows with Demon Lord Rimuru, and harmed him with his Anti-Skill".

Mariabell's Greedy One was described to be capable of affecting even Hinata, although that was with Death Wish which seems like explicitly soul-hax. Only Diablo and Shion can probably resist according to Rimuru.
I'd be fine with Mariabell being 6-C at base, and 6-A with Greedy One considering she was described to be very strong by Rimuru at least and was able to exchange blows with him. Not sure how to word the tier though. "Island level, likely Continent level with Greedy One"? Possibly Continent level? Or perhaps just the same as Yuuki?

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As for her speed, would Mariabell actually count as being Relativistic+? She was able to dodge Rimuru's kick. Yuuki as well for keeping up with Rimuru before falling into a feint.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Likely.

And yah, Rel+.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That's all fine with me.

Btw noticed 1st key Rimuru is missing Massively Hypersonic+ attack speed with Black/Dark Lightning, Ranga already has it but not Rimuru,

 

[Metalballrun]

Alright, I'll add them then.

 

[Community_Gamer]

I mostly agree. I still have reservations about the speed but it's no big deal. I'll remain neutral. Well, see the issues in later volumes.

 

[Elizhaa]

Are all the changes done; if so, it is fine if I closed the thread?

 

[Metalballrun]

Are all the changes done; if so, it is fine if I closed the thread?

I just remembered. I left Reynald Jesta's profile at Large Mountain level because I think there was no reason to put him in Island level aside from being a Sage, which I believe ranges from High 7-A to 6-C anyways (also based from Rimuru's statements that Sages are at least on Orc Disaster Geld's level).
So do I leave that as it is, or scale Reynald to Clayman?

Aside from that, the thread can be closed as everything else is already done.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think 6-C powerscaling from CLayman is fine.