TSSDK: Some Upgrades and Downgrades

[Metalballrun]

NOTE: This evaluation is incomplete, I would like to ask some other, more knowledgeable users to give their inputs in these changes, especially in the speed downgrades. This CRT only covers up to Volume 11 of the light novels, although I borrowed some information in machine-translated volumes.

Spoiler: Accepted changes

Attack Potency Upgrades and Downgrades
Continent level, 6-A

• Rimuru Tempest (2nd key)
• Hinata Sakaguchi (2nd key)
• Ruminas Valentine
• Granbell Rosso
• Razul
• Diablo (2nd key)

Island level, (likely) Continent level

• Yuuki Kagurazaka
• Mariabell Rosso

Island level

• Benimaru (2nd key)
• Shion (2nd key)
• Souei (2nd key)
• Geld (2nd key)
• Ranga (2nd key)
• Carillon (1st and 2nd key)
• Clayman (1st and 2nd key)
• Charybdis
• Rimuru Tempest (1st key)
• Treyni (2nd key)
• Laplace
• Footman
• Roy Valentine
• Glenda Adley
• Sare
• Charys (Ifrit's 2nd key)

At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level

• Treyni (1st key)

At least Large Mountain level

• Hakurou (2nd key)

Large Mountain level

• Benimaru (1st key)
• Souei (1st key)
• Shion (1st key)
• Shuna (2nd key, with magic)
• Alvis (both keys)
• Sufia (both keys)
• Phobio (both keys)
• Gabil (2nd key)
• Adalman
• Momiji

Speed Downgrades
Relativistic+

• Rimuru Tempest (2nd key)
• Hinata Sakaguchi (2nd key)
• Ruminas Valentine
• Granbell Rosso
• Razul
• Diablo (2nd key)
• Shion (2nd key)
• Ranga (2nd key)
• Yuuki Kagurazaka
• Mariabell Rosso

At least Massively Hypersonic

• Rimuru Tempest (1st key)
• Hinata Sakaguchi (1st key)
• Benimaru (2nd key)
• Souei (2nd key)
• Geld (2nd key)
• Carillon (1st and 2nd key)
• Clayman (1st and 2nd key)
• Rimuru Tempest (1st key)
• Treyni (2nd key)
• Laplace
• Footman
• Roy Valentine
• Glenda Adley
• Sare
• Charys (Ifrit's 2nd key)

Massively Hypersonic

• Benimaru (1st key)
• Shion (1st key)
• Souei (1st key)
• Hakuro (1st key)
• Shizue Izawa (1st key)
• Ranga (1st key)
• Shuna (2nd key)
• Geld (1st key)
• Gabil (1st key)
• Adalman
• Treyni (1st key)
• Momiji
• Alvis (both keys)
• Sufia (both keys)
• Phobio (both keys)
• Ifrit (1st key)
• Charybdis

Spoiler: At least Large Country level, likely Continent level

At least High 6-B, likely 6-A
The reason for this is the statement from Leon Cromwell fighting Yellow Primordial resulting to El Dorado (a continent larger than Australia) to "sink to the bottom of the ocean".
From Volume 11, Chapter 3

Leon's ruled territory, El Dorado, lay on a different continent across the sea. This continent was larger than the country of Australia on Earth. All of it was under Leon's rule.

Actually, even if it were to come to that-
If Leon were to battle an awakened Yellow Primordial, he could still win following a fierce battle. But clashing with her would result in the continent sinking to the bottom of the ocean.

Such scale of destruction can be supported by characters of similar power stated to be capable of doing something similar, such as Mizari being stated to be capable of destroying Ingracia, another continent-sized country (that seems to be a bit smaller than El Dorado based on the world map), and the nature of Yellow Primordial's Nuclear Magic. Nuclear Magic of human wizards has been described to be on par with nuclear weapons of Earth. The Phantoms that are on Awakened Demon Lord levels have also shown the destructive capability on a continental scale (such as Pulcinella, who could destroy the Atlantis continent from Kondou's original world).

However, we're unsure whether "sinking to the bottom of the ocean" is literal or just a figure of speech, which is why it's At least High 6-B, likely 6-A, based on this reference assuming the destruction is caused by a nuclear magic explosion.

Characters that will get this upgrade:

• Rimuru Tempest (Demon Slime/Awakened Demon Lord key). Reason: comparable to Leon Cromwell and Carrera, the named Yellow Primordial.
• Ruminas Valentine. Reason: comparable to Leon Cromwell and Rimuru Tempest. Defeated Granbell Rosso at his peak, who is stronger than Hinata Sakaguchi even in his older, weaker form.
• Diablo (Demon Peer key). Reason: comparable to Rimuru. Stronger than Rain who is comparable to Mizari. Stated that he could win against Razul.
• Hinata Sakaguchi. Reason: comparable to, but weaker than Rimuru Tempest and Granbell Rosso. Parried sword strikes with Rimuru and was able to harm him with her Melt Slash.
• Razul. Reason: stronger than Hinata Sakaguchi and old Granbell Rosso. Completely overpowered Shion and Ranga at the same time. His magicule content was more than Shion’s and Diablo’s combined and was fighting them both at the same time.
• Granbell Rosso. Reason: comparable to Ruminas Valentine. Stronger than Hinata Sakaguchi.
• Yuuki Kagurazaka (with Greedy One). Reason: comparable to Hinata and able to harm Rimuru.

Characters with no profiles that will get this rating:

• Leon Cromwell. Reason: capable of defeating the Yellow Primordial, with their battle resulting to El Dorado sinking to the bottom of the ocean.
• The rest of the Primordials
• The rest of the Octagram.
• Chloe Aubert/O'Bell and Chronoa. Reason: Stronger than Rimuru Tempest and Leon Cromwell. Likely higher. Raphael described her power to be at least comparable to Veldora. Hinata using Chloe’s body was able to defeat him.

Spoiler: Island level

6-C
The reason for this tier upgrade is a number of Demon Lord Breeds being capable of Island level output via scaling supported by statements, such as Rimuru Tempest and Karion.

• Rimuru Tempest (Slime/Demon Lord Breed key). Reason: Beretta, who is on Orc Disaster Geld's level, was powered up by 30% of Rimuru's energy, meaning Rimuru has around 3x energy than him and likely 3x stronger.

At the moment I said it, I felt my energy drain. I was getting pretty used to this by now. It took about half my magicules this time too. The pessimistic side of me was expecting more, given how high and mighty this demon looked. Naming Beretta, that Greater Demon, took over 30 percent of my magicules, so he must've been greater than Greater after all. [Volume 5 Chapter 5]

• Karion (Transformation Key). Reason: his form grants a 3x energy multiplier, which he can utilize for destruction with his Beast Roar. His base form has over 2x of Ifrit’s energy, making him superior to Orc Disaster Geld. His base form should be "At least Large Mountain level+, likely higher" due to Rimuru saying his aura was just as overwhelming if not more so than Charybdis.

A, I see. So this is one of the recent demon lords. He hides his presence well, but my eyes cannot be fooled. It is clear that even concealed like this, his energy is over twice that of Ifrit's.
Plus, Carrion is a lycanthrope. Given that he is known as the "Beastmaster", and king of their domain, it would stand to reason that he is a lion type, the strongest of lines.
When he transforms into his true state, Carrion's energy will surely expand threefold. His strength is absolutely worthy of the demon lord moniker. [Veldora's Slime Observation Journal Volume 8, ~Big Catch~, As A Nation]

• Shion (Oni). Reason: was capable of fighting against Razul along with Ranga and crack his exoskeleton with her Unique Skill Battle God, although still outclassed and needed her hax to win. Higher with Unique Skill Battle God as she was able to damage Razul's exoskeleton, although she also received Ranga's assistance.

With all her willpower infused in her strike, it could cut through all the laws in the world. As lightning intertwined with her odachi, she swung down—
Shion’s attack left a small crack on Razul’s arm. His exoskeleton blocked mostof the attack, but that was more than enough for Shion. As long as she could makea tiny opening, she would be able to activate ‘Optimal Action’ and reach ‘CertainOutcome’. This was the secret of Shion’s Unique Skill ‘Cook’.

• Charybdis. Reason: Is a Demon Lord class individual, only ranked Special A due to its lack of intelligence. The combined might of Tempest forces, Dwargon forces, and Post-Orc Lord fight Rimuru only gave it 30% damage within 10 hours. However, much of this is likely due to its Magic Interference and Ultra-Speed regeneration. Her AP was described to be capable of tearing everyone in the Tempest and Dwargon forces into mincemeat should they make a full contact.
• Benimaru (Oni). Reason: was able to damage and one-shot an incomplete Charybdis. Is among the strongest of the Onis.

“My apologies, I was playing to have some fun with you when you complete your body…”
It hasn’t flown to the sky, yet its gigantic body is almost forty meters long. Yet right now this gigantic being is being covered up by a black hemisphere.
“Begone.”
Benimaru whispers.
In an instant—with a “BOOM!” sound—its noise spread across the surrounding.
It’s the large area burning attack—“Black Flame Hell”.
Its power cannot be compared to that of the past.
In addition to Benimaru’s “Fire Manipulation”, his magicule movement is completely within his control. Even with Charybdis’ innate skill “Magic Interference”, its body is still burnt to ashes.

• Charys. Reason: before being named, was already comparable to Soei and Geld. After being named by Veldora as Charys, was stated to have surpassed Karion and Frey and reached Demon Lord class.

Ifrit's magicule content was already at Special Rank A-meaning she rivaled the strength of a Calamity-class monster. While she was weaker than Shion and Benimaru, she could put an even fight against Souei and Geld. And now that Ifrit received a name—"
"Understood. I shall henceforth be known as 'Charys'. I pledge my loyalty to the servitude of the great Veldora-sama!"

It worked. Veldora successfully named Ifrit. The flame giant began to evolve-it was practically exploding with magicules, rapidly reaching the level of demon lord-class. Ifrit not only surpassed Treyni-san, but seemed to have even surpassed Karion and Frey.
<<Report. Greater spirit 'Flame Giant Ifrit' has evolved into 'Flame Lord'.>>

• Possibly other Demon Lord Breeds or Demon Lord Class individuals that scales.

Spoiler: Other AP Changes

There are a few inconsistencies regarding the tiers of Special A rank characters. Charybdis should be ranked higher, as mentioned above. It is not comparable to the Sky Dragon, as stated by both Rimuru and Ifrit. The Sky Dragon is only Mountain level+ like Ifrit, who stated that he is comparable to it before his training.

"Heh heh heh. You were once of the same strength level, but you could easily win in a fight now, wouldn't you say?"
"Indeed, Master. Even before my training here, I would have matched up well against it. Now, I dare say I could defeat it without trouble."

"These threat levels that humans devised are rather crude, aren't they, Master? They use only the amount of magical energy as the basis, rather than strength. I just cannot fathom how even Charybdis was considered a Calamity."
"Where else could it be? Above Calamity, there is only Disaster, the rank for demon lords, and Catastrophe, those beings that reign atop all life. And by the standards of human strength, everything at Calamity and above is dangerous. There is little point to splitting the ranks even finer," I told Ifrit. He looked impressed.
"How very wise, Master Veldora. One never knows when the occasional insight or wisdom might escape your lips!"

Rimuru dissing the Sky Dragon.

After that, I killed it in quite literally the blink of an eye. It was big, at fifteen or so feet long, but a mere small fry compared to Charybdis. It had lightning and sonic waves and thick skin—but none of the Sky Dragon’s attacks worked on me.
So I battered the guy around a bit, then used Glutton to have it for dinner. An easy win.

The Elemental Colossus is of the same rating, as it is stronger than the Sky Dragon but of an unknown margin. Beretta is (at least) Large Mountain level for being twice as strong as the Colossus.
This is necessary to bring up as multiple characters are being scaled off from Beretta, which requires minor edits for all of those profiles.

Spoiler: Speed Downgrade

Shizue Izawa and all characters scaling to her will be reduced to Massively Hypersonic. This is because of the mistranslation on Volume 1 of the novels, regarding Black Lightning being faster than light.
It would be then assumed that Black Lightning is at least lightning speed, maybe possibly even higher due to the virtue of being Veldora’s skill.
Characters that will get this downgrade include: the Kijins (Benimaru, Shion, Soei, Hakuro, Shuna) Orc Disaster Geld, Ranga, the Three Lycanthropeers (Alvis, Phobio, Sufia), Geld, Momiji, Gabiru, Treyni, the Clown Troupe, and many others who scale to either Shizue or Hakuro or those who scale from these characters.

Those who are faster than these characters, like Hinata Sakaguchi (Sage) could potentially get a likely higher addition.

Those who later get powerups, such as the Onis, Geld, Ranga, and those who are comparable to them such as Karion, Charys, and other Demon Lord class individuals, should get Relativistic+. This is due to Shion and Ranga being capable of holding back Razul, who is superior to Granbell and Hinata Sakaguchi. Thus, Shion and Ranga should downscale from him, and other characters who are comparable to Shion and Ranga need to be rated the same way as well.

Characters who were previously rated as FTL likely should be downgraded to at least Relativistic+ in combat speed, while FTL reactions/perception speed for characters with Mind Accelerate likely should remain. This is because of, aside from the downgrade above, Volume 11 events detailing that characters on Demon Lord Rimuru’s level does not exceed the speed of light normally while fighting, instead being only near the speed of light. Nonetheless they’re able to perceive such attacks.

Once Granbell swung his sword, the ‘Disintegration’ released from his slash could not be stopped. Rather than a slash, it was more like a strike—something akin to a ‘Melt Strike’. The strike would travel at nearly the speed of light and piece straight through its target.

Rimuru says he can't intercept it at full speed, but describes it as light speed.

This was why I bolted towards that kid.
Yet according to my calculations, I wouldn’t make it in time, even at full speed.
But perhaps if I activated ‘Gluttonous King Beelzebub’ and consumed the entire space in front of me…
I could not capture spirit particles traveling at the speed of light. But since I knew that his target was Chloe, I should be able to make it.

Hinata was able to intercept it though, but she was closer to Granbell.

Hinata took action first. Without a hint of hesitation, she jumped in between Chloe and Granbell’s attack. Sacrificing herself, she let Granbell’s ‘Melt Strike’ hit her directly in the chest.
It instantly pierced through, and Hinata coughed up blood as she fell to the ground. However, this merely reduced some momentum of the beam as it continued to approach Chloe.

Characters such as Rimuru Tempest, Hinata Sakaguchi, Ruminas Valentine, and others that scale or are comparable to them would be subjected to this downgrade.

 

[Elizhaa]

AT LEAST LARGE COUNTRY LEVEL, LIKELY CONTINENT LEVEL

• The blog is not accepted so it can't be used. Though I did get a calculation for destroying Australia from Therefir and it was High 6-B+. Destroying a place like the United States (Continental) would be 6-A. The place is approximately something larger than Australia which aligns more closely with Leon's feat. I made a blog and I am waiting for an evaluation.

I will reply later since I will be handling other things.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Commenting, gonna give evaluation latter, but I’m leaning on agree.

 

[Metalballrun]

The blog is not accepted so it can't be used. Though I did get a calculation for destroying Australia from Therefir and it was High 6-B+. Destroying a place like the United States (Continental) would be 6-A. The place is approximately something larger than Australia which aligns more closely with Leon's feat. I made a blog and I am waiting for an evaluation.

I thought it was accepted since it's in the trivia section of the AP page.
USA is only 1.3x bigger than Australia, so as a low-ball, yeah that makes sense. If the calculation is accepted, I'll edit the OP into simply Continent level while referencing that blog.

 

[Ionliosite]

Well, since the continent is explicity called bigger than Australia, I don't see any issue with it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree with ion.

 

[Elizhaa]

I thought it was accepted since it's in the trivia section of the AP page.
USA is only 1.3x bigger than Australia, so as a low-ball, yeah that makes sense. If the calculation is accepted, I'll edit the OP into simply Continent level while referencing that blog.

I see; it is weird that there doesn't seem to be any evaluations from the calculation. I saw the parts are on this page recently, though. The continental United States is not the full United States since States like Alaska and Hawai aren't included. There were other options for countries like Brazil but it was evident that tier would be 6-A, from Therefir's calculation method.

---

SPOILER: SPEED DOWNGRADE

• Shizue Izawa and all characters scaling to her will be reduced to Massively Hypersonic. This is because of the mistranslation on Volume 1 of the novels, regarding Black Lightning being faster than light.
  It would be then assumed that Black Lightning is at least lightning speed, maybe possibly even higher due to the virtue of being Veldora’s skill.
  Characters that will get this downgrade include: the Kijins (Benimaru, Shion, Soei, Hakuro, Shuna) Orc Disaster Geld, Ranga, the Three Lycanthropeers (Alvis, Phobio, Sufia), Geld, Momiji, Gabiru, Treyni, the Clown Troupe, and many others who scale to either Shizue or Hakuro or those who scale from these characters.
  • The speed of lightning is 1294 Mach so it is Massively Hypersonic+ not Massively Hypersonic. So, I am fine with Massively Hypersonic+ not Massively Hypersonic for the characters above, if the lightning feats are legit. Playing devil advocate, does the lightning have enough lightning properties to qualify for lightning speed?
• Those who later get powerups, such as the Onis, Geld, Ranga, and those who are comparable to them such as Karion, Charys, and other Demon Lord class individuals, should get Massively Hypersonic+, [DEBATABLY] Sub Relativistic.
  • I disagree with Sub-Relativistic speed because there is no indication that the characters go over 6.8 times to qualify to the speed from the Massively Hypersonic+ case, assuming the lighting feats are legit.
• Characters who were previously rated as FTL likely should be downgraded to at least Relativistic+ in combat speed, while FTL reactions/perception speed likely should remain. This is because of, aside from the downgrade above, Volume 11 events detailing that characters on Demon Lord Rimuru’s level does not exceed the speed of light normally while fighting, instead being only near the speed of light. Nonetheless they’re able to perceive such attacks.
  Characters such as Rimuru Tempest, Hinata Sakaguchi, Ruminas Valentine, and others that scale or are comparable to them would be subjected to this downgrade
  • I think I would be fine with this proposal.

I will reply more later.

 

[Metalballrun]

The speed of lightning is 1294 Mach so it is Massively Hypersonic+ not Massively Hypersonic. So, I am fine with Massively Hypersonic+ not Massively Hypersonic for the characters above, if the lightning feats are legit. Playing devil advocate, does the lightning have enough lightning properties to qualify for lightning speed?

The lightning-dodging feat is in the manga, chapter 8, so people can check it out and evaluate how fast Shizue should've been to perform the feat.
The reason I put Massively Hypersonic initially is because Rimuru yelled "Get down!" which would've helped her anticipate the attack, plus you don't have to be as fast as the projectile to dodge it. Veldora describes her to have dodged it, so it's not questionable that she did. Still, being MHS+ is reasonable, I suppose.
I believe it counts as real lightning for the following reasons:

• It's always been described similar to real lightning: flash of light, and then thunder comes after.
• It's also been described as made up of electricity. Upon learning Control Particles, Rimuru was able to control electricity by syncing that skill with Dark/Black Lightning.
• As Veldora describes in the scan above, black/dark lightning is superior to regular lightning. Veldora was talking about both speed and power, it's not a stretch to assume that it is of the same speed if not superior. In another note, Veldora himself can control electromagnetic waves during his fight with Velgrynd IIRC.
• Ranga's lightning is considered to be inferior to Rimuru's, and Ranga summons it like cloud-to-ground lightning.
• In later volumes, it has shown properties of conductivity such as Ranga infusing his lightning to Shion's sword in Volume 11, and Ranga's lightning flowing through the Eastern Empire's tanks in Volume 13.

I disagree with Sub-Relativistic speed because there is no indication that the characters go over 6.8 times to qualify to the speed from the Massively Hypersonic+ case, assuming the lighting feats are legit.

I did say Sub-Relativistic is debatable, so I'll concede with the consensus.
However, one of the issues I've failed to brought up is found at Volume 11. Both Shion and Ranga were able to fight against Razul, who was superior to Hinata and Granbell. Granted, they were getting overwhelmed but they should somewhat downscale from him as Rimuru described them to be holding their own enough that he left them alone.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Also, Gazel would scale to 6-A as well, as he’s comparable to Saint Hinata, but inferior to Rimuru.

 

[Metalballrun]

Also, Gazel would scale to 6-A as well, as he’s comparable to Saint Hinata, but inferior to Rimuru.

Yeah, although Gazel would downscale from Hinata. I'm positive there's another quote where he admits Hinata is superior. In Veldora's journals, he also confirms that Hinata is superior than Gazel.
I also see a bit of a problem regarding Hinata's page, which is divided into two (Sage and Saint). As far as I know, Hinata was already a Saint when she fought Rimuru the first time. If this is the case, then Gazel would warrant an upgrade.
But if she was just a Sage during that time (which I don't think she is), then Gazel's rating would remain.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, although Gazel would downscale from Hinata. I'm positive there's another quote where he admits Hinata is superior. In Veldora's journals, he also confirms that Hinata is superior than Gazel.

Don’t think so. I believe what you’re referring to is sword skill, where he says in sword fighting it’s a different story, but I don’t remember the exact details.

You’ll have to ask CP about it, Sage & Saint Hinata.

 

[Metalballrun]

Don’t think so. I believe what you’re referring to is sword skill, where he says in sword fighting it’s a different story, but I don’t remember the exact details.

You’ll have to ask CP about it, Sage & Saint Hinata.

You got it reversed. Gazel states that he can only keep up in terms of Sword Skills (since he's trained in Hakuro's Super OP Sword Arts), but in terms of power/strength he's at a disadvantage. He made this judgment with better information as well, admitting that Hinata is stronger.

After firmly stating that this was a secret, I told Gazel the full story of the fight between Hinata and me.
“Unbelievable. That woman…in honesty is stronger than me. It would be another story if we were to talk just about swordsmanship, but in overall strength, I’d be pushed back. Yet you really still won?”
Taking my lead, Gazel spoke honestly as well. There was no way the Hero King Gazel would actually fight with Hinata. Therefore, he probably had a covert agent gather information and analyze her strength and concluded that he would be at a disadvantage.
[Volume 9, Chapter 1]

Plus there's Veldora's statements, although you can only read those journals if you buy the volumes and I only read it at Wenku.

I'll message CP if he can give his input here.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You got it reversed. Gazel states that he can only keep up in terms of Sword Skills (since he's trained in Hakuro's Super OP Sword Arts), but in terms of power/strength he's at a disadvantage. He made this judgment with better information as well, admitting that Hinata is stronger.

Ah, okay, yeah then I agree, Gazel is comparable if not below Hinata.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

High 6-B or 6-A is fine with me.

Gazel only scales to Sage Hinata, and yes there is a difference, Hinata only became a Saint with the gear she got from Ruminas.

Yuuki shouldn't scale at all either, he was boosted by Greedy One and still was inferior to Rimuru unless i am forgetting something, unless the proposed scaling is for him with Greedy One? If so, if i remember correctly, he probably scales, but to below Rimuru.

6-C

• Shion (Oni). Reason: was capable of fighting against Razul along with Ranga and crack his exoskeleton with her Unique Skill Battle God, although still outclassed and needed her hax to win. Higher with Unique Skill Battle God as she was able to damage Razul's exoskeleton, although she also received Ranga's assistance.

Shion and Ranga couldn't do anything to Razul, only harmed him with hax. I agree though that she would scale to this via being stated to be Rimuru's strongest subordinate behind Benimaru and somewhat fighting Yuuki.


The speed scaling is based on Shizue dodging black/dark lightning which is like a concentrated version of death storm which causes a storm, and pretty sure that move was like a combo of black lightning and Ranga's control wind, we saw cloud to ground lightning in that. Dodging black lightning without any calc should only be MHS.

Sub-relativistic is not substantiated, disagree.

Stuff i didn't comment on, means it's fine.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yuuki shouldn't scale at all either, he was boosted by Greedy One and still was inferior to Rimuru unless i am forgetting something, unless the proposed scaling is for him with Greedy One? If so, if i remember correctly, he probably scales, but to below Rimuru.

Well, he did kick his arm off too.

 

[Elizhaa]

Celestial pegasus, there is evidence that Yuuki rivaled Hinata as a Saint. Here is one piece of evidence that you brought up, months ago.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Nice.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Was Hinata called the Saint before actually becoming a Saint? This seems likely to me, cause it doesn't make sense that Yuuki is comparable to Hinata as a Saint who can fight Rimuru evenly albeit is a little weaker, while Yuuki had to be boosted by Greedy One to put up a fight.

Think the raws have to be looked at here.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yup i was right, was just some confusing translations between sages and saints. Ie

With Hinata, they make up for the Ten Great Saints.



Saints are a high rank species that human can evolve into through many years of rigorous training. People who reach this level are called 「Sage」. Their lifespan is greatly lengthened and have the ability to transform into a semi-astral-lifeform. They would be rid of the shackles of the human flesh. And that’s why people who reached the level of Sage are able to utilize enormous power. Their immense physical prowess and precision in magical usage has been strengthened far beyond what an average man could foresee, making them powerful beings, able to rival the 「Demon Lord Breed」44. They are the guardians of mankind and are slowly evolving into the envoys of God.-Volume 7, Chapter 3

Hinata is the leader of the Ten Great "Saints", here it talks about Saints but also mentions Sages, so it's confusing. Here again Kumaru tails are stated to be on the level of the Ten Great Saints, which we know aren't actually Saints but Sages, cause the "Saints" whom Hinata heads are only Demon Breed level.

Eh, I should have seen this coming, but the creatures that flew out startled me, nonetheless. As expected from Clayman’s ace in the hole. She was already tremendously tough with the beasts summoned from her two tails—and there were eight of them this time. Her ninth tail seemed to be her own, while the rest were all magical beasts. Each creature was over Rank A. An average Holy Knight, in all likelihood, wouldn’t even be able to touch one of them. They could also share their combat experience, making their coordination flawless.
Based on what I saw, she had the potential to beat Fritz and the others. This little girl was on par with the ‘Ten Great Saints’. I know it may sound like I was joking, but I was telling the truth. Once the beasts from her tails gained more combat experience, she would definitely become an unbelievable force. She may eventually live up to the name of the ninetieth-floor guardian.-Volume 11, Chapter 3

In short don't think Yuuki and Gazel scale, especially as i said makes no sense even boosted Yuuki is below Rimuru but yet he is suppose to be that level before he even gained the boost.

 

[Metalballrun]

High 6-B or 6-A is fine with me.

Gazel only scales to Sage Hinata, and yes there is a difference, Hinata only became a Saint with the gear she got from Ruminas.

I see. I was under the impression that Hinata was already a Saint beforehand because of this line:

In addition to Ruminas’ account of Rimuru’s instant kill of Demon Lord Clayman, it should be clear that the “Ten Great Saints” who only possess the title (of Saint), would not stand a chance against him unless they are truly able to achieve higher evolution to become a real “Saint”.
—Like Hinata. [Volume 7, Chapter 3]

I interpreted this as Hinata was already a Saint. But I suppose the wordings could mean that Hinata can evolve into a Saint.

Shion and Ranga couldn't do anything to Razul, only harmed him with hax. I agree though that she would scale to this via being stated to be Rimuru's strongest subordinate behind Benimaru and somewhat fighting Yuuki.

I think the scene was unclear though, I wanted to put "likely higher" because it still took them multiple buffs in order to make a crack against Razul's exoskeleton. I'm fine if it's just classified as hax though.

Sub-relativistic is not substantiated, disagree.

How are we going to rate the speed of the Onis, though?
If Shion and Ranga are only MHS+, then they should've been utterly blitzed by Razul, who was stronger than Granbell and Hinata and was initially fighting Shion and Diablo at the same time IIRC. Yet Rimuru have deemed them (Shion and Ranga) to be capable enough of holding Razul back.
At the very least they should downscale, I think.

Was Hinata called the Saint before actually becoming a Saint? This seems likely to me, cause it doesn't make sense that Yuuki is comparable to Hinata as a Saint who can fight Rimuru evenly albeit is a little weaker, while Yuuki had to be boosted by Greedy One to put up a fight.

Yes you are correct. The Ten Great Saints are all called Saints, and Hinata has always been referred to as Hinata the Saint or Saint Hinata.
The ones conversing in that scene was Mariabell and Johann, both have no real idea about Rimuru's true power.

Yuuki still harmed Rimuru in that one scene, because of Anti-Skill. So what do we make of that?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Shion and Ranga wouldn't be Sub Relativistic then, they would be Relativistic+.

I am fine with Boosted Yuuki ie with Greedy One, being 6-A or whatever.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think it should blatantly be 6-A.

 

[Metalballrun]

Alright. I suppose those who are comparable to Shion and Ranga would receive the same speed ratings.
Yuuki will only scale with Greedy One.
Gazel won't scale to Saint Hinata, only Sage Hinata (whose Island level rating will remain, but her speed will also be downgraded to MHS+).
I will wait for Elizhaa if her calculation was accepted and which tiers is gonna be used.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I think MHS+ is too high without a calc. Black Lightning is indeed lightning speed, but dodging it shouldn't make the characters MHS+.

Though don't see how a calc can be made cause from what i remember we didn't see Shizue dodge it cause it she was covered in smoke, we just know she did. MHS is all i can see then.

 

[Metalballrun]

I think MHS+ is too high without a calc. Black Lightning is indeed lightning speed, but dodging it shouldn't make the characters MHS+.

Though don't see how a calc can be made cause from what i remember we didn't see Shizue dodge it cause it she was covered in smoke, we just know she did.

That was in the anime version. In the manga + Veldora's journals, she explicitly dodged Black Lightning, and since there weren't any storm clouds, Rimuru likely just transformed into his Tempest Star Wolf form and conjured it from his horn. Here are some scans.
The issue is we don't know the distance from which Rimuru fired the lightning, although it's likely from an earshot range. The scene itself seem to be difficult to calculate, but Veldora confirms that she dodges it.
I initially put a MHS rating, but Elizhaa said it could be MHS+ which I thought was reasonable enough.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Elizhaa only said lightning is mach 1200+ not mhs, which is true and does indeed make black lightning mhs+. However dodging it shouldn't make them mhs+, no different from how we don't just make dodging light speed attacks, light speed, without a calc.

It could be FTL, it could be sub-relativistic, but relativistic is a good middle ground without a calc.

 

[Metalballrun]

That's fine, it'll remain as MHS then, until somebody capable bothers to calc it.

 

[Elizhaa]

Lighting is decently high into Massively Hypersonic+ like around 294 Mach high. One can make a decent argument that dodging it is Massively Hypersonic+; I have also seen cases where it is treated as such as in Pokémon. I am fine with lightning being valid in the verse, from the new evidence brought; I am neutral on if Massively Hypersonic+ or Massively Hypersonic is chosen now though.

---

I am fine with Celestial Pegasus's other conclusion on the speed and Attack Potency.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I have seen calcs for lightning dodging end up being mhs, and i have seen calcs end up being mhs+, so without a calc, don't know what a baseline speed for dodging it is, we would have to assume the lowest.

That said, idk if those mhs calcs i saw where from a while ago when we had lightning speed as lower.

I think i made several verses with lightning dodging feats which are still mhs, so would have to upgrade those too if this is accepted as mhs+.

 

[Community_Gamer]

I have a problem with Hinata scaling to Demon Lord Rimuru which kinda ripples to other scaling.

• Did Hinata par Rimuru's attacks? Yes, but that was mainly through Future Prediction and she still impressed and surprised he kept up despite not having it.
• Then Hinata uses her Mathematician to the limit to where she starts bleeding from the strain. This is after Rimuru learns Future Attack Predict.
• I'd say it's very questionable that paring Rimuru's strikes would make her continental anyway.
• Did Meltslash hurt Rimuru? Yes, but that's because it ignores conventional durability. Spirit particles are (were) so unpredictable and even capable of traveling time and space that made it impossible to defend against.

I think it was made pretty clear that Hinata was none near Rimuru's level. Especially when she directly compares him to Ruminas, who she couldn't even hurt. She even tries Usurper and it was blocked, something only Ruminas did.

Old Granbell is actually said to weaker than Hinata. He just prepared for her skills so he could effectively counter. And he only one after baiting her into death by targeting Chloe. Old Granbell was really a match for Rumnias, she wasn't even trying to kill him. She was more concerned with Chloe and Hinata as well as getting information from him. And informing Rimuru on the situation. Young Granbell is a different story, especially since it was said their power was comparable. Though obviously Rumnias still bodied him. If Granbell could handle Rumnias he wouldn't need to trick Yuuki into freeing Chronoa in such a manner in the first place. But the plan was to have Chronoa wipe everyone out.

To summarize:

• Hinata shouldn't be continental because she doesn't scale to Rimuru in any meaningful way. (AND now that he can actually block spirit particles she can't even damage him. She even thinks to herself that only Rumnias could possibly match him in V10).
• Old Granbell should scale to continental because he only scales to Hinata. Same applies for Yuuki, and Gazel's statement was in reference to sword skill/technique, not power. He wouldn't stand a chance against Hinata in combat.

These are just my own concerns with the CRT.

 

[Community_Gamer]

I have grievances about speed but I'll save those for later volumes to get translated. There are numerous contradictions.

As for Charybdis, essentially she is above Calamity level but not quite Disaster level. Which doesn't really matter, since we only need to worry about its feats. Being the same tier doesn't they'll scale the same after all. Or even be relative.

 

[Community_Gamer]

I find it quite perplexing whenever someone uses energy levels (magicules) to scale individuals' AP and durability to each other when it is made explicitly clear that energy doesn't have anything to do with strength. There is even that infamous line from Diablo in V11, "A difference in magicules is not a difference in strength".

Curious about everyone's thoughts...

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Just parring Rimuru's attacks should make Hinata continental, it doesn't matter if she is predicting them, there is no way a island level character should be able to directly confront a continental character's attacks.

Nobody denies Hinata is weaker, but to say she is like 10000x weaker is a stretch. As for the Ruminas comparisons, the only version of Hinata that fought her was way back before she even became a Saint, that comparison doesn't hold true.

Next Granbell is stronger than Hinata, yes he used a lot of intellect and prep, but that's cause he is cautious. Ruminas stated he is stronger

“Regarding Granbell, he is not a ‘saint’, but ‘A Bearer of The Hero’s Egg’. When the hatchling grew its wings and left the nest, even I have no idea just how strong he has become.”
Didn’t this imply he was a legitimate chosen hero?
The term ‘Hero’ was used here and there, but had different connotations to it. Some would proclaim themselves to be a chosen hero, but only people bearing the ‘Hero’s Egg’ were acknowledged by the world. In other words, the latter were the real deal, possessing sufficient strength to even seal away Veldora.
Just like how ‘Demon Lord Seeds’ were still considered demon lords, ‘Hero’s Egg’ bearers would be considered chosen heroes in conjunction. Their sources of power were very similar. ‘Heroes and demon lords are bound by causality’—this saying really hit the nail on the head. And deducing further from this knowledge, I could tell that Granbell’s power was presumably on par with an awakened demon lord.
“—Could it be that he is more powerful than Hinata?”
“When I heard that Gran was killed by Nicolas alone, I thought I had misheard. ‘Disintegration’ is truly the strongest magic spell, but Gran would not be stupid enough to take a hit like that head on. And, to answer your question—”
Ruminas stared straight into my eyes.
I see, so that’s why she didn’t call Hinata.
“—You are correct. I tried convincing him to join me, which is why I fought against him in the first place. As a result, this is why I can confidently declare him to be stronger than even the older demon lords,” Ruminas concluded without hesitation.-Volume 11, Chapter 3

He was also pretty confident he could put up a fight with Ruminas, and unless i am tripping, didn't he directly fight Ruminas in vol 11? Could have also sworn Hinata had some statements around volume 9-11 of being comparable to Ruminas after becoming a Saint too

Like i could actually go back through all those volumes, but i think other ppl will find all that and make a good argument.

I am busy trying to finish off a VN, so i am not too invested here, but my initial thoughts are that Granbell and Hinata scale but to a lesser extent.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Just parring Rimuru's attacks should make Hinata continental, it doesn't matter if she is predicting them, there is no way a island level character should be able to directly confront a continental character's attacks.

Nobody denies Hinata is weaker, but to say she is like 10000x weaker is a stretch. As for the Ruminas comparisons, the only version of Hinata that fought her was way back before she even became a Saint, that comparison doesn't hold true.

Next Granbell is stronger than Hinata, yes he used a lot of intellect and prep, but that's cause he is cautious. Ruminas stated he is stronger


He was also pretty confident he could put up a fight with Ruminas, and unless i am tripping, didn't he directly fight Ruminas in vol 11? Could have also sworn Hinata had some statements around volume 9-11 of being comparable to Ruminas after becoming a Saint too

Like i could actually go back through all those volumes, but i think other ppl will find all that and make a good argument.

I am busy trying to finish off a VN, so i am not too invested here, but my initial thoughts are that Granbell and Hinata scale but to a lesser extent.

The problem isn't just parring but not knowing where Rimuru physical attacks would scale. Are you saying they are continental because can make them that strong? If so, how do know he can and why is he?

Hinata wasn't a Saint when she fought Rimuru. Ruminas talks about Hinata evolving into one recently in V11. She wasn't even complete in her evolution which Granbell talks about. Hinata also had a Hero Egg like Granbell.
Also remember Usurper only works on people stronger than Hinata. Unless they are beyond the comprehension of her unique skill or blocked through other means. Her Usurper worked on Granbell both in the past and present. He just made duplicates of skills she took to figure out the nature of its abilities.

As for the difference between Hinata and Rimuru I don't think there's any canon way for finding that out quantitatively. Remember that these scaling systems and measurements are are best guesses of interpreting the work in a quantitative and qualitative format. Although the inductions are based on about evidence its still not actually canon. So when you say "10,000x weaker" thats a figure that you get from comparing calculations that aren't even canon to the narrative their just our best estimates. So no, I don't think she's 10,000x weaker. I just know she can't even hurt Rimuru if she wanted to, nor Ruminas. You guys can't figure out where that places her, I was only concerned with logic behind everything.

 

[Metalballrun]

I'll try to detail but make my responses concise. As to not make this thread a very long wall of text, I'll use the spoiler tag function.

Spoiler: response

• Did Hinata par Rimuru's attacks? Yes, but that was mainly through Future Prediction and she still impressed and surprised he kept up despite not having it.
• Then Hinata uses her Mathematician to the limit to where she starts bleeding from the strain. This is after Rimuru learns Future Attack Predict.

The very first one proves my point that Hinata scales on top of Rimuru's reactions being very impressed with her as well. Although they were mainly talking about speed here IIRC, parrying sword strikes like these proves that they're both in the same level, AP-wise, even if Hinata is somehow weaker to an extent.
The second point is merely difference in physiology, with which Rimuru is superior. It doesn't really disprove anything regardless, other than making Hinata even more impressive as Rimuru acquired a very overpowered precognition-esque skill to counter her.

• I'd say it's very questionable that paring Rimuru's strikes would make her continental anyway.

I saw this as a valid concern, but yes, it would make her of the same rating. This was originally a part of the CRT but I removed it, only just in case somebody asks.
We have precedents throughout the series that physicals and sword strikes, Arts in general, do scale to their magic spells, even large-scale ones. It's why we had High 7-A Rimuru, because he can harm Geld who tanked Ranga's pinpointed Death Storm (although with visible damage).

• Did Meltslash hurt Rimuru? Yes, but that's because it ignores conventional durability. Spirit particles are (were) so unpredictable and even capable of traveling time and space that made it impossible to defend against.

I might concede this point but I'd like other people to give their input. Nonetheless, Meltslash is still a combination of Disintegration and Hinata's sword arts, and it evidently was able to blow Rimuru away and harm him, which is notable enough.

I think it was made pretty clear that Hinata was none near Rimuru's level. Especially when she directly compares him to Ruminas, who she couldn't even hurt. She even tries Usurper and it was blocked, something only Ruminas did.

This doesn't mean that her AP do not downscale. In fact, a lot of things are in consideration here, including skills, which we all know can be very different and detached from AP scaling because of its esoteric and haxed nature.
The comparison to Ruminas is flawed as she was able to hurt Rimuru, plus the fact that Ruminas is a master of holy magic, which is like 90% of Hinata's prowess. Usurper is again not about AP, I believe this was relegated to haxes and resistances.

Old Granbell is actually said to weaker than Hinata.

Yes, but he would still downscale to her because he is not overwhelmingly weaker.

Old Granbell was really a match for Rumnias, she wasn't even trying to kill him.

Old Granbell never fought Ruminas, he was already in his Younger form when they battled.

If Granbell could handle Rumnias he wouldn't need to trick Yuuki into freeing Chronoa in such a manner in the first place. But the plan was to have Chronoa wipe everyone out.

This doesn't disprove anything either. We saw that Granbell can in fact fight Ruminas on equal terms. But he tricked Yuuki because that isn't his only goal. Being able to handle Ruminas isn't the only thing he wanted, and since there was no victor in their last bout, he won't even be sure who would win. He wanted the world destroyed, he can't do that, but Chronoa can (in his opinion).

As for Charybdis, essentially she is above Calamity level but not quite Disaster level. Which doesn't really matter, since we only need to worry about its feats. Being the same tier doesn't they'll scale the same after all. Or even be relative.

I don't really get what you're trying to say here. But I'm willing to change Charybdis's AP into Varies since Large/ Mountain level+ characters can take her attacks without dying instantly (with Tempest Scales). But her Durability would still be Island level.

I find it quite perplexing whenever someone uses energy levels (magicules) to scale individuals' AP and durability to each other when it is made explicitly clear that energy doesn't have anything to do with strength. There is even that infamous line from Diablo in V11, "A difference in magicules is not a difference in strength".

But it has. We have to go deeper into context here.
Magicule or energy levels is effectively the most tied to AP since it's the fuel or energy being used to output said attacks. We've even had examples of multiple low-tier monsters conserving their magic energy for their attacks (and how it is difficult to reacquire lost magicules and whatnot).

As for Diablo's line, even if we take it in a literal sense, that does not mean that energy doesn't have anything to do with literal strength or AP (which is kinda dumb, no offense). It simply means that having more magicule doesn't mean you're now far stronger than your enemies. Which brings us back to the context, which is Skills and Arts. Diablo's simply saying that magicule content is not an indicator of overall prowess and not the deciding factor of who's gonna win and who's better. As is consistent with everything else with the series like Hakuro and other users of Arts being relevant, and in future volumes, EP not being a deciding factor for everything but a guideline nonetheless.

 

[Community_Gamer]

I will apply the same principle for my responses. Also apologize for the hastiness of my previous comments. I'll try to more concise and specific.

Spoiler: REPLY

The very first one proves my point that Hinata scales on top of Rimuru's reactions being very impressed with her as well. Although they were mainly talking about speed here IIRC, parrying sword strikes like these proves that they're both in the same level, AP-wise, even if Hinata is somehow weaker to an extent.
The second point is merely difference in physiology, with which Rimuru is superior. It doesn't really disprove anything regardless, other than making Hinata even more impressive as Rimuru acquired a very overpowered precognition-esque skill to counter her.

Hinata did parry so she scales, yes I agree. I just don't think Rimuru is putting much effort into the fight. So yeah whatever arbitrary level Rimuru's strikes were at she scales... I completely agree. What I don't understand is how you know their continental. It doesn't really make Hinata more impressive since she was using Mathematician to predict all his strikes anyway. Rimuru evened the playing field. Besides the only reason he needed it was because he wasn't as disciplined in sword combat so he couldn't read through her strikes. Future Attack Predict made up for his lack of experience essentially. But this doesn't matter much overall.

I saw this as a valid concern, but yes, it would make her of the same rating. This was originally a part of the CRT but I removed it, only just in case somebody asks.
We have precedents throughout the series that physicals and sword strikes, Arts in general, do scale to their magic spells, even large-scale ones. It's why we had High 7-A Rimuru, because he can harm Geld who tanked Ranga's pinpointed Death Storm (although with visible damage).

Physical attacks can scale to magical attacks and skills...yes. Where does Rimuru's strikes scale to? Why?

Also the difference with Geld is that we have direct comparisons. We don't even need calcs. Ranga's Black Lightning strike (generated from Death Storm but not the actual storm itself) barely damaged Geld. Rimuru proceeds to cutoff his arm. Its qualitatively superior than Ranga's feat. If we have direct continental comparisons for Rimuru then I'm all ears.

I might concede this point but I'd like other people to give their input. Nonetheless, Meltslash is still a combination of Disintegration and Hinata's sword arts, and it evidently was able to blow Rimuru away and harm him, which is notable enough.

If you want to say through Meltslash she could damage Rimuru (not anymore) then fine by me.

This doesn't mean that her AP do not downscale. In fact, a lot of things are in consideration here, including skills, which we all know can be very different and detached from AP scaling because of its esoteric and haxed nature.
The comparison to Ruminas is flawed as she was able to hurt Rimuru, plus the fact that Ruminas is a master of holy magic, which is like 90% of Hinata's prowess. Usurper is again not about AP, I believe this was relegated to haxes and resistances.

Her AP can downscale its just a matter figuring where. It may just be completely quantifiable, at least using Demon Lord Rimuru. Again she was only to hurt Rimuru because he couldn't counter spirit particles. Whereas Ruminas regardless if she block them can at least counter with her own. So no its only emphasizing my point that Hinata can't touch Rimuru or Ruminas if they are being serious. Hence her comparisons to each other. The point of bringing up Usurper wasn't about resistance but noting its function as another point of comparison to Ruminas. Funny enough, when tries to use it on Rimuru she's reminded of Ruminas.

This doesn't disprove anything either. We saw that Granbell can in fact fight Ruminas on equal terms. But he tricked Yuuki because that isn't his only goal. Being able to handle Ruminas isn't the only thing he wanted, and since there was no victor in their last bout, he won't even be sure who would win. He wanted the world destroyed, he can't do that, but Chronoa can (in his opinion).

I have no problem with Young Gtanbell fighting Ruminas. I was saying Old Granbell isn't there. That way there's no way to connect Hinata to Ruminas. My Yuuki thing was to emphasize that Old Granbell wasn't really planning on fighting the DLs directly. At least not Ruminas.

Old Granbell never fought Ruminas, he was already in his Younger form when they battled.

Yep.

Yes, but he would still downscale to her because he is not overwhelmingly weaker.

Sure. Old Granbell downscaling is fine.

I don't really get what you're trying to say here. But I'm willing to change Charybdis's AP into Varies since Large/ Mountain level+ characters can take her attacks without dying instantly (with Tempest Scales). But her Durability would still be Island level.

All I was doing was summarizing what Veldora was saying about Charybdis. She's power but not quite Demon Lord powerful. They'd be in own separate tier between Calamity and Disaster.
How powerful are her scales anyway? They don't seem to be very impressive, fast and numerous.

But it has. We have to go deeper into context here.
Magicule or energy levels is effectively the most tied to AP since it's the fuel or energy being used to output said attacks. We've even had examples of multiple low-tier monsters conserving their magic energy for their attacks (and how it is difficult to reacquire lost magicules and whatnot).

Yes, energy fuels the attacks so of course their related. But that doesn't mean to individuals with same energy output would have the same output. Nor does it mean that having two people with drastically different energy levels couldn't be relative. They really go into that in V15 and V16.

So my problem isn't energy is completely irrelevant, but using as justification for scaling (unless you are comparing energy levels). Even using it as supporting evidence might be questionable. Its just a case by case basis.

As for Diablo's line, even if we take it in a literal sense, that does not mean that energy doesn't have anything to do with literal strength or AP (which is kinda dumb, no offense). It simply means that having more magicule doesn't mean you're now far stronger than your enemies. Which brings us back to the context, which is Skills and Arts. Diablo's simply saying that magicule content is not an indicator of overall prowess and not the deciding factor of who's gonna win and who's better. As is consistent with everything else with the series like Hakuro and other users of Arts being relevant, and in future volumes, EP not being a deciding factor for everything but a guideline nonetheless.

It means having more less doesn't necessarily make someone stronger or weaker. Its also not just about Arts and skills but physical ability as well.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree with CP and Community.

 

[Metalballrun]

Alright, CG. I will say that you do have valid points, but some of them are just going in circles. Nevertheless, some of these are perhaps also my fault since maybe I could've elaborated on these more on the OP, so I'll explain them in this reply for y'all.

Spoiler: RESPONSE #2

What I don't understand is how you know their continental. It doesn't really make Hinata more impressive since she was using Mathematician to predict all his strikes anyway.

So we now do agree that Hinata scales, albeit it's explicit that she is not equal to Rimuru. She simply downscales somewhat to his AP because they couldn't have had an insurmountable gap for the fight to happen.
To address why they are "Continental" (I will address the tier in the very bottom of this post), I suppose I should word it out like this:
Rimuru is stated to be comparable, or actually stronger than Diablo. Diablo is, in turn, comparable to, or actually stronger than Carrera, aka Yellow Primordial Jaune, who can destroy El Dorado in her fight with Leon. I don't have access to the novels right now, but we know that all of these are stated in them.
What I wrote in the OP was just a shortened version.
As for Hinata using Mathematician, that has more to do with speed anyways than AP. You have to give more context, as both of them were trying hard to neutralize each other without killing the other. Their AP would still scale following this logic.

Physical attacks can scale to magical attacks and skills...yes. Where does Rimuru's strikes scale to? Why?

Tbh, if we're not gonna scale Rimuru, then we shouldn't scale everyone else. Ruminas compares to him, Granbell scales to Ruminas, and so on.
We all know that the Continental rating, as of now at least, hinges on the statement of Leon and Carrera being capable of destroying El Dorado as a side-effect of their battle. If no one scales, then this should be dropped entirely as both of these people barely have any feats as of Volume 11.
If the other people agree then we should drop the Continental rating for everyone.

For the same reason that we lack an actual calculation of a feat performed, but rather a calculation of a destruction two beings were stated to be capable of causing should they fight together, lead to me compiling several reasons as of why the others would scale, which I already said in this thread. We do have explicit statements that Rimuru in fact is comparable to Jaune, which leads to everyone else scaling. Albeit I understand that we have yet to see a continental attack (which I believe is your concern), so this is pretty much why we have this CRT.

How powerful are her scales anyway? They don't seem to be very impressive, fast and numerous.

They're powerful enough to be capable of harming the Kijins, and nobody was hit by her Light Beams which Rimuru himself was dodging, and it created an explosion that towered over mountains (in the anime at least).

But that doesn't mean to individuals with same energy output would have the same output. Nor does it mean that having two people with drastically different energy levels couldn't be relative.

Yes, but this doesn't really disprove my scaling. In fact, the last one supports Hinata scaling because of her Arts. We don't really disagree with this sentiment.

It means having more less doesn't necessarily make someone stronger or weaker. Its also not just about Arts and skills but physical ability as well.

The thing is, the stronger/weaker thing here isn't exclusively about AP, but about overall which includes haxes and resistances being provided by all the other abilities in this series.
What I'm saying is that magicule/magic energy has the most correlation to AP, but that doesn't mean that everything else doesn't.
I don't even think we're disagreeing here, more like confusion over semantics more than anything.

So far, the only things you actually disagreed with (as I see them) are:

1. The Continental level rating, for everyone. [If everyone disagrees, I don't mind this being dropped altogether.]
2. Saint Hinata's AP scaling to ADL Rimuru's AP (although it seems you already agree that she scales/)
3. Old Granbell's AP being the same as ADL Rimuru's AP, if you still disagree with #2.

---

Now, back to the tiering. Let's assume that everyone still agrees that people scale to Leon and Jaune.
Elizhaa made a new blog, but I'm not sure if this qualifies as approved right now.
However, the statements say that this feat is achievable by Leon and Jaune both. So at the very least, the results will be halved.
Basically, even with both calculations approved, everyone would end up being Large Country level only. Nobody's gonna end up being Continental.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Wait, I meant CP and Metal, thought Community was the OP, haven't been on thread for a bit. I agree with you two.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Why will it be country instead of continental?