TSSDK: Some Upgrades and Downgrades

[Metalballrun]

Sorry, I forgot to comment on this point; Treyni cut off Laplace's arm and it was stated she could have killed him; her tier would be High 7-A+ at base yes. It should make her next tier 6-C, going from this point.

The problem with 6-C Treyni is we don't know whether her powerup grants her that amount for sure, although it is possible.
The scaling goes like this:
Treyni (Dryad Doll) >> Treyni (Dryad) = Laplace > Clayman (Base) > Beretta > Orc Disaster Geld (1.4 Gigatons). With Beretta being twice as strong as the Colossus, which is stronger than the Sky Dragon to an unknown margin. Sky Dragon is as strong as Ifrit who is half as strong as Orc Disaster (honestly the scaling is lengthy, somebody should just create a profile for Beretta).

If we give Treyni a 6-C rating, in effect, Base Karion would likely be 6-C as well since it was stated by Rimuru that Treyni is not quiet on his level yet, unless Rimuru is referring to transformed Karion being stronger. Roy Valentine was described to have stronger haki than untransformed Karion specifically according to Rimuru. So that might **** up the scaling since Laplace managed to defeat Roy.

Nevermind on the scan as I found it; it seems exactly the case that I mentioned (Volume 5 Chapter 5). Benimaru had already evolved; he even met Rimuru so Rimuru should be knowledgeable on his strength. Rimuru made the comment about Noir's strength after the meeting and before Noir evolved. So, 6-C is fine, to me.

I'm kind of neutral on this since Rimuru only comments on the resurrected ones who have grown stronger/got more magicules, and he doesn't when he met Benimaru (who likely was even hiding his haki/youki as always). And in fact Rimuru only realizes how strong he actually got (10x magicules) after he named Diablo, so his views of everyone's strengths up to this point are still flawed. Although personally Noir being 6-C shouldn't be that strange considering Jaune was capable of fighting 6-A Leon Cromwell, and Noir himself has stomped High 7-A characters before, so I'm not too opposed with the rating.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If we give Treyni a 6-C rating, in effect, Base Karion would likely be 6-C as well since it was stated by Rimuru that Treyni is not quiet on his level yet, unless Rimuru is referring to transformed Karion being stronger. Roy Valentine was described to have stronger haki than untransformed Karion specifically according to Rimuru. So that might **** up the scaling since Laplace managed to defeat Roy.

I see no problem with 6-C Karion, considering his base aura was stated to be comparable to Charibydis, which is already 6-C, if not higher than it.

 

[Metalballrun]

Like I said, there would be issues with the scaling since that would make Roy Valentine 6-C as well, and Laplace would also be 6-C for killing Roy. Albeit Roy was weakened when Laplace offed him, this was right after Walpurgis when Rimuru judged Roy's haki.
Either Laplace doesn't scale, since Roy was weakened and it's possible that Roy wasn't weakened during Walpurgis which was located in an alternate realm hence Rimuru saw his full power. And Laplace did say Roy was stronger than him. Laplace remaining as High 7-A or At least High 7-A, (likely higher) would probably fix the scaling, I think. Hopefully.
Also Laplace said he is stronger than Treyni, although base Treyni would still scale/downscale from him.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ask CP for his thoughts.

 

[Metalballrun]

Would posting in his wall again be excessive?
I'll continue editing later again anyways, so I'll just wait for Elizhaa to provide his thoughts, and maybe he can tag CP as well.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Don't think we should make Treyni 6-C for just being vaguely stronger than before, unless her Base was already really close to 6-C.

As for her Base, unless i am misremembering she did indeed cut off Laplace arm, but correct me if i am wrong, wasn't he holding bacck during that? She scales to an extent sure but i wouldn't put as being the same level as Laplace.

As for Laplace, the assumption that Roy was weakened during their fight probably makes the most sense.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Don't think we should make Treyni 6-C for just being vaguely stronger than before, unless her Base was already really close to 6-C.

As for her Base, unless i am misremembering she did indeed cut off Laplace arm, but correct me if i am wrong, wasn't he holding bacck during that? She scales to an extent sure but i wouldn't put as being the same level as Laplace.

I'm fine with Treyni scaling under, unless someone gets the scans for that.

 

[Elizhaa]

I'm kind of neutral on this since Rimuru only comments on the resurrected ones who have grown stronger/got more magicules, and he doesn't when he met Benimaru (who likely was even hiding his haki/youki as always). And in fact Rimuru only realizes how strong he actually got (10x magicules) after he named Diablo, so his views of everyone's strengths up to this point are still flawed. Although personally Noir being 6-C shouldn't be that strange considering Jaune was capable of fighting 6-A Leon Cromwell, and Noir himself has stomped High 7-A characters before, so I'm not too opposed with the rating.

• I will say leave Diablo's tier where it is, after reading more. I checked and Rimuru was surprised by Benimaru's strength after he defeated Charybdis, in Volume 6 Chapter 5.

Yes, Laplace later commentsted he could have a defeated Treyni if he was serious so I am fine where Treyni's current tier, from what I recently checked. Roy was weakened but not greatly, from narrative standpoints; Laplace still dominated him so I think he High 7-A+ can stay

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yes, Laplace later commentsted he could have a defeated Treyni if he was serious so I am fine where Treyni's current tier, from what I recently checked. Roy was weakened but not greatly, from narrative standpoints; Laplace still dominated him so I think he High 7-A+ can stay

I think that still warrants 6-C, as she still cut off his arm and forced him to flee, though it was via location.

 

[Metalballrun]

Don't think we should make Treyni 6-C for just being vaguely stronger than before, unless her Base was already really close to 6-C.

Well, her base should be at Laplace's level since she was able to harm him. Laplace > Clayman > Beretta > OC Geld, but the gap between these characters are unknown, with Beretta and OC Geld probably being really close.
High 7-A is a particularly small tier though.

wasn't he holding bacck during that? She scales to an extent sure but i wouldn't put as being the same level as Laplace.

Laplace said he would've won if he went serious, as he "could likely conquer one in a duel" (YP), or Treyni "wouldn't have stood a chance" as Laplace is confident in his victory against one Dryad (FTL).
But that doesn't mean his durability was lowered to Mountain level+ (Treyni's base tier previously).
Also to consider Treyni being able to damage Charybdis even with her strongest attack being reduced to a 10th of its power.

As for Laplace, the assumption that Roy was weakened during their fight probably makes the most sense.

If Treyni's 2nd key isn't gonna be bumped up to 6-C, then this wouldn't be much of an issue as both Laplace and Roy would also remain at High 7-A.

I will say leave Diablo's tier where it is, after reading more. I checked and Rimuru was surprised by Benimaru's strength after he defeated Charybdis, in Volume 6.

I am fine with this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Laplace is x3 stronger than Berreta, yeah?

 

[Community_Gamer]

Like I said, there would be issues with the scaling since that would make Roy Valentine 6-C as well, and Laplace would also be 6-C for killing Roy. Albeit Roy was weakened when Laplace offed him, this was right after Walpurgis when Rimuru judged Roy's haki.
Either Laplace doesn't scale, since Roy was weakened and it's possible that Roy wasn't weakened during Walpurgis which was located in an alternate realm hence Rimuru saw his full power. And Laplace did say Roy was stronger than him. Laplace remaining as High 7-A or At least High 7-A, (likely higher) would probably fix the scaling, I think. Hopefully.
Also Laplace said he is stronger than Treyni, although base Treyni would still scale/downscale from him.

Laplace is constantly lying about his strength, when he told Yuuki that he got lucky because it was full moon there was a line that said that the shock of Clayman's death hid the fact the Laplace was lying. Same thing withTryni he was definitely stronger but he left because he didn't want the crystal to be damaged. Although this is MTL Treyni has an extended battle with Laplace for a few days and only concludes when Souei arrives (although Laplace said she beat him to a pulp). Though Laplace was a negotiator for Yuuki so he may not want to antagonize Rimuru by taking out Treyni. Anyway, the point is that Treyni is far more powerful than post HF but Laplace hasn't really gotten stronger just been holding back.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Don't think we should make Treyni 6-C for just being vaguely stronger than before, unless her Base was already really close to 6-C.

As for her Base, unless i am misremembering she did indeed cut off Laplace arm, but correct me if i am wrong, wasn't he holding bacck during that? She scales to an extent sure but i wouldn't put as being the same level as Laplace.

As for Laplace, the assumption that Roy was weakened during their fight probably makes the most sense.

Nah, Laplace wasn't trying and fleed because of the crystal and to report to Clayman. As for Roy, he was weakened but it's stated that regardless that he'd beat him anyway. This proven true when in V11 Laplace literally fight Louis who was not only stated stronger than Roy but should be even stronger now that Roy's power has returned to him. Since Roy and Louis are simply two halves of the same being.

 

[Metalballrun]

EDIT: I'll try to provide a fix for scaling later.

 

[Metalballrun]

This is my mistake as the "Other AP Changes" section of my CRT should have been longer. I just realized that the changes for Beretta would affect a lot of profiles that scales to him.

---

First things first, let's clear up the Beretta scaling:
According to Ifrit, he was as strong as the Sky Dragon prior to Veldora's training, hence both are half as strong as Orc Disaster Geld. Which is 0.7 Gigatons. Mountain level+
According to Rimuru, the Elemental Colossus is stronger than the Sky Dragon (hence Ifrit as well) in an unknown margin.
According to Rimuru, Beretta is twice as strong as the Elemental Colossus.
In short, Ifrit/Sky Dragon (0.7 Gigatons) < Elemental Colossus (Unknown) << Beretta (2x).
The issue here is how strong are we gonna put the Elemental Colossus compared to the Sky Dragon? At least, it should be less than 2x since Rimuru would've mentioned it like how he did for Beretta. So the Colossus would be within 1.1x - 1.9x stronger than the Sky Dragon.
Only then can determine Beretta's AP, and the AP of those who scales to him, which is important because we scale all Demon Lord Class individuals to Beretta, whom we currently don't know the AP of for sure.

---

 

[Metalballrun]

As of now, I don't really know which one is the best option, so I just made three possibilities for the "Beretta Class".
A.
Low End: 1.1x multiplier
Elemental Colossus: 0.77 Gigatons. Mountain level+
Beretta: 2 x 0.77 = 1.54 Gigatons. Large Mountain level.
B.
Mid End: 1.5x (Arithmetic Mean)
Colossus: 1.05 Gigatons. Mountain level+
Beretta: 2 x 1.05 = 2.1 Gigatons. Large Mountain level.
C.
High End: 1.9x
Colossus: 1.33 Gigatons. Mountain level+
Beretta: 2 x 1.33 = 2.66 Gigatons. Large Mountain level+.

There are significant differences depending on which are chosen towards other profiles.
If option A is chosen: (I'm originally in support with this since it's the safest)
1a. Several characters that are "superior to Beretta" or "comparable to Beretta" would be downgraded to Large Mountain level. This includes even some of Rimuru's servants Post Harvest Festival. Unless it can be proven that some of them scale to characters aside from Beretta.
2a. Treyni (2nd key) would be Large Mountain level+ (3.08 Gigatons) as her magicule count doubled. Those who are superior to her (Base Karion, Roy Valentine, Laplace, etc.) would be on the same tier.
If option B is chosen: (I'm neutral to this option)
1b. Same as 1a.
2b. Treyni (2nd Key) would become Large Mountain level+ (4.2 Gigatons) as her magicule count doubled. Those who are superior to her (Base Karion, Roy Valentine, Laplace, etc.) would become Island level.
If option C is chosen: (I'm personally against this, because if the Colossus was was strong as the Orc Disaster, Rimuru would've mentioned it)
Almost nothing changes, as it's the same as the original scaling. Except Treyni (2nd Key)and everyone above her becomes Island level.

---

We should just vote it out.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

In favor of 2B, or C.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

A and B are the safest. Personally think we should go with A since it's the safest option, though wouldn't have a problem with B either.

C is a no.

 

[Elizhaa]

I'm still a bit shitfaced, but have nothing to do atm, so I'll post this.
Currently, we are scaling people off Beretta by virtue of being a demon lord class individual or beings on that level (such as sages). This isn't necessarily wrong as Beretta himself has said that there are a lot of Rimuru's servants that are stronger than him, but this isn't a universal rule. I found out that Clayman was actually weaker than Beretta.
Clayman had a doll named Piorra (uncertain relation with the Five Finger member of the same name), which Rimuru comments that looked stronger than Clayman. Although both should be comparable in power.

As for Shion—
She is holding up with brute force.
The black-cape is a delicate magic doll.
And honestly, it looks stronger than Clayman.
“Hehehehahahaha, how do you like my finest work Piorra? Isn’t it dazzling?” Clayman is extremely confident, but not without his reason.
The doll is undoubtedly powerful.

This same doll proceeded to get bodied by Beretta.

The so-called finest work of Clayman, Piorra has been dismembered to the extent of miserable to look at. There also seem to be equipment that are gifts for Ramiris.
I have always guessed that Beretta is strong, but I didn’t expect him to beat that arsenal looking Majin without a scratch…

Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that Beretta is overwhelmingly powerful. We have to take the doll not having an ego in consideration too. Just that Clayman is not superior than him.

---

As of now, I don't really know which one is the best option, so I just made three possibilities for the "Beretta Class".
A.
Low End: 1.1x multiplier
Elemental Colossus: 0.77 Gigatons. Mountain level+
Beretta: 2 x 0.77 = 1.54 Gigatons. Large Mountain level.
B.
Mid End: 1.5x (Arithmetic Mean)
Colossus: 1.05 Gigatons. Mountain level+
Beretta: 2 x 1.05 = 2.1 Gigatons. Large Mountain level.
C.
High End: 1.9x
Colossus: 1.33 Gigatons. Mountain level+
Beretta: 2 x 1.33 = 2.66 Gigatons. Large Mountain level+.

There are significant differences depending on which are chosen towards other profiles.
If option A is chosen: (I'm originally in support with this)
1a. Several characters that are "superior to Beretta" or "comparable to Beretta" would be downgraded to Large Mountain level. This includes even some of Rimuru's servants Post Harvest Festival. Unless it can be proven that some of them scale to characters aside from Beretta.
2a. Treyni (2nd key) would be Large Mountain level+ (3.08 Gigatons) as her magicule count doubled. Those who are superior to her (Base Karion, Roy Valentine, Laplace, etc.) would be on the same tier.
If option B is chosen: (I'm neutral to this option)
1b. Same as 1a.
2b. Treyni (2nd Key) would become Large Mountain level+ (4.2 Gigatons) as her magicule count doubled. Those who are superior to her (Base Karion, Roy Valentine, Laplace, etc.) would become Island level.
If option C is chosen: (I'm personally against this)
Almost nothing changes, as it's the same as the original scaling. Except Treyni (2nd Key)and everyone above her becomes Island level.

---

We should just vote it out.

Noted. Clayman wasn't his full power, though; Rimuru comments on this point when Clayman took his Clow persona much later (Volume 6 Chapter 5). There seems to be supporting evidence that Clayman did damage Shion simply super regeneration (Volume 6 Chapter 5). Clayman's Pierra look stronger against Shion since they are referred to as Clayman's ace and turn into greater Majin which are not referred to in the other case.
Looking stronger isn't necessarily equal to be stronger, also.

Also, Beretta did evolve though so the feat would not be in his first key; hence, this point wouldn't really matter on this part of the scaling (Volume 6 Chapter 2).

A small thing, I think it is better to cite the volume and Chapter when we used them for reference I noticed some statements from the earlier parts of the Volume got retcon or changes like Rimuru thinking Benimaru could rival Treyni's power in Volume 6 chapter 4 and later it was found that Rimuru didn't even know Benimaru's full strength until Volume 6 Chapter 5, in context.

I would be fine with option B or what I proposed earlier. Option A looks low at x1.1 multiplier, though I could be fine; its performance and statements regarding its battle against Rimuru are more impressive than Sky Dragon. On option C, there is not enough supporting evidence so I can't agree.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Which B? 1b or 2b?

 

[Community_Gamer]

I'd personally would just say Beretta should be at leaat 2x Ifrit/Sky Dragon. I wouldn't assume some multipler when there's nothing to support. Colossus is just vaguely stronger. In otherwords I'm offering another option.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Also, Beretta did evolve though so the feat would not be in his first key; hence, this point wouldn't really matter on this part of the scaling (Volume 6 Chapter 2).

A small thing, I think it is better to cite the volume and Chapter when we used them for reference I noticed some statements from the earlier parts of the Volume got retcon or changes like Rimuru thinking Benimaru could rival Treyni's power in Volume 6 chapter 4 and later it was found that Rimuru didn't even know Benimaru's full strength until Volume 6 Chapter 5, in context.

Agreed, although Rimuru also didn't about Treyni's full power. At least when she fuses with her wind spirit lord she goes into million class just below Charys.

 

[Metalballrun]

Noted. Clayman wasn't his full power, though; Rimuru comments on this point when Clayman took his Clow persona much later (Volume 6 Chapter 5). There seems to be supporting evidence that Clayman did damage Shion simply super regeneration (Volume 6 Chapter 5). Clayman's Pierra look stronger against Shion since they are referred to as Clayman's ace and turn into greater Majin which are not referred to in the other case.
Looking stronger isn't necessarily equal to be stronger, also.

Also, Beretta did evolve though so the feat would not be in his first key; hence, this point wouldn't really matter on this part of the scaling (Volume 6 Chapter 2).

Yes I just realized Beretta's evolution earlier, that's why I deleted that part of my comment. But I forgot about Clayman becoming more powerful, so thanks for that.
So which tier are we going to put Clayman then? There seem to be a significant difference between his base and his Clown form.

A small thing, I think it is better to cite the volume and Chapter when we used them for reference I noticed some statements from the earlier parts of the Volume got retcon or changes like Rimuru thinking Benimaru could rival Treyni's power in Volume 6 chapter 4 and later it was found that Rimuru didn't even know Benimaru's full strength until Volume 6 Chapter 5, in context.

Yeah I agree. Although that previous statement is just a general outlook about how Fair Onis would be on the same level as a Dryad Doll. Although individually they are obviously not on the same level with Benimaru and Shion being above Treyni, and Treyni being above Geld and Souei (referenced in Volume 11 when Ifrit became Charys).

I would be fine with option B or what I proposed earlier. Option A looks low at x1.1 multiplier, though I could be fine; its performance and statements regarding its battle against Rimuru are more impressive than Sky Dragon. On option C, there is not enough supporting evidence so I can't agree

I feel like Option A would have the least inconsistencies as well. Its results would be more or less the same in the tiers if we used 1.4x multiplier.

I'm more concerned about the tiers of the Tempest executives post Harvest Festival. For example, Geld was able to put up a fight against Lion Mask, even if he mostly just defended, so Geld would likely downscale from Karion. If option B is chosen, Karion would likely be Island level, while Geld would remain at Large Mountain level + since he should be below Treyni and Karion, if I'm not mistaken.

Which B? 1b or 2b?

If you approve of any option, you'll get both things encompassed by them.
1a is basically the same as 1b because 1.54 Gigatons and 2.1 Gigatons all fall under Large Mountain level, hence those who scale to Beretta would also be on that level. To become Large Mountain level+, they must have at least 2.65 Gigatons.

 

[Metalballrun]

I'd personally would just say Beretta should be at leaat 2x Ifrit/Sky Dragon. I wouldn't assume some multipler when there's nothing to support. Colossus is just vaguely stronger. In otherwords I'm offering another option.

You can just vote for Option A, as it has very little difference compared to your proposition at the same time does not ignore Beretta>Colossus>Sky Dragon scaling. It just makes Beretta 2.2x stronger than Ifrit/Sky Dragon, which is totally safe and low value.
Your proposition will just make Beretta as strong as Geld 1 (1.4 Gigatons) while my Option A makes Beretta 1.54 Gigatons, virtually the same with only 0.14 difference. The scaling with the other characters would also be the same.

Otherwise, if we're gonna go by your suggestion, then it's much easier to drop scaling to Beretta altogether, and instead just scale to Orc Disaster Geld. It would also make editing the profiles less of a pain lol

 

[Community_Gamer]

You can just vote for Option A, as it has very little difference compared to your proposition at the same time does not ignore Beretta>Colossus>Sky Dragon scaling. It just makes Beretta 2.2x stronger than Ifrit/Sky Dragon, which is totally safe and low value.
Your proposition will just make Beretta as strong as Geld 1 (1.4 Gigatons) while my Option A makes Beretta 1.54 Gigatons, virtually the same with only 0.14 difference. The scaling with the other characters would also be the same.

Otherwise, if we're gonna go by your suggestion, then it's much easier to drop scaling to Beretta altogether, and instead just scale to Orc Disaster Geld. It would also make editing the profiles less of a pain lol

Calculation wise yeah its not much at all. But its more of logic consistency that I'm worried about. I'm fine with dropping it but at this point I won't directly oppose anyone on their conflicting opinions on this. So let's tally in and conclude.

 

[Metalballrun]

Well, assuming that we get that or Option A as accepted, then most people who scale to Beretta or Clayman would be Large Mountain level or At least Large Mountain level for some characters who might be considered significantly above them, with a number of exceptions.

Clayman: Large Mountain level (superior to Beretta), higher with his full power (stronger than before, was able to put up a fight against Shion albeit was still outclassed) | At least Large Mountain level+ (His incomplete awakening as a demon lord made him stronger and have given him at least a two time boost in strength)
Carillon: Large Mountain level+ (Rimuru described him to be stronger than Treyni. Defeated all three of Dagruel's sons who individually possessed magicule to rival that of un-awakened Clayman, likely while restrained) | Island level (his magicule expands threefold in this form)
Diablo: Large Mountain level+ (Effortlessly defeated Razen, who is superior to Hakuro)
Footman: Large Mountain level+ (superior to Geld. Was able to fight against Gunther, who is comparable to Roy Valentine.)
Geld (2nd key): Large Mountain level+ (without using his Skills, was able to exchange blows from a restrained Karion for several minutes. A serious blow from Karion didn't bring him down, albeit he was defeated by it)
Laplace: Large Mountain level+ (Superior to Treyni, could easily defeat Roy Valentine when serious)
Ranga (2nd key): Large Mountain level+ (According to Rimuru, Ranga is superior to Geld and can possibly defeat a restrained Karion)
Roy Valentine: Large Mountain level+ (Comparable to Karion)
Souei (2nd key): Large Mountain level+ (Easily defeated Glenda Adley, who can fight evenly with one of his clones)

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I still can't understand why Karion--who is stated to have as much if not more aura than Charybdis--in base is High 7-A, but Charbydis himself is 6-C. That alone is an inconsistency.

 

[Metalballrun]

It's more because of how the statements regarding aura doesn't necessarily mean they're of equal strength.
Then again, we're scaling Roy off how his Haki feels stronger than Karion's according to Rimuru.
I'd actually be fine with Option B as CP is fine with it and Elizhaa is in favor for it.

Unless we just downgrade Charybdis back to Large Mountain level+. It's possible that Rimuru was still only in that level by the time he fought Charybdis. Would also make sense how Treyni was able to damage it. Rimuru reaches Island level via magicule count much later when he summons Beretta, after so many training with Milim and Hakuro.

Interestingly, Rimuru says he won't win against Karion in Volume 3 Epilogue.

After meeting two demon lords in person—Milim, then Carillon—I realized there was no way I could take on one of them right now. So I was working hard, taking the steps I needed to improve on that.

Although this could just be Rimuru underestimating himself again.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think magicule count should be considered. Hell, even the recent Slime manga chapter has Rimuru admitting while he stomps Hakurou in magicule count, he would get obliterated in a sword fight. So there is a disparity is power, and how to use it.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am unsure about Darguel's sons; they look strong but it seems like they could lose some of Rimuru weaker's subordinates.

To be fair, after the new quote, Rimuru later trained with Millim and got stronger; after he got stronger, Milim stated she would not problem with Rimuru declaring himself a demon lord (Volume 3 Epilogue). Anubis also made this comparison comment of Benimaru and Carillon (Volume 6 Chapter 4). So, I am not opposed to upgrading Karion and those who power scaled to Karion anymore.

I think Clayman's second key should probably get updated to 6-A or High 6-B, at the lowest; his power is almost comparable to the Special S rank of Tempest; it is around 70000 to 800000 at 788842 (My reasoning of 2x multiplier look outdated, with the 6-A change) (Volume 16 Chapter 1). The EP value just was unstable. Volume 16 stated Special Rank S is more than 800000. If we low-balled the feat being able to destroy El Dorado at 765 Teratons, then Clayman's AP could (788842/800100)*765 at 754.23 Teratons which is 6-A; low-balled is mentioned since the current 6-A tier kind of scaled and upscaled to Carrerra's 6-A statement.

When Rimuru made heaven and earth comment since it could be a counterargument, Clayman states he wasn't using his full power (Volume 6 Chapter 5).
Rimuru even commented Clayman's physical attack could have work on him when he absorbed Clayman's projectile attack (Volume 6 Chapter 5). I don't think Rimuru's statement would make sense if Clayman wasn't closed to his tier.
We have the context that Clayman is least comparable to Karion at the worst lowball since Karion thought Rimuru could use his help to awakened Clayman down (Volume 6 Chapter 5). Narrative-wise, Clayman is basically described as awakened in later Volumes so I don't think he way weaker than standard awakened demon lord being.

I have been confused why would Clayman's key needs to write differently? I would say just make the key about Clayman's full power; it is not like Clayman used a transformation. I know Clayman could scale to Frey since she claimed she at best she has a draw with a Clayman after seeing his full power and had no chance after being awakened (Volume 6 Chapter 5).

Didn't Frey does have a statement of being comparable to Karion?

I will reply much later since it took me a while to compile scans and review the volume.

 

[Metalballrun]

I am unsure about Darguel's sons; they look strong but it seems like they could lose some of Rimuru weaker's subordinates.

That's fair. Just that Souei made it sound like Karion defeated them all at once, and as Lion-Mask he's restrained.

To be fair, after the new quote, Rimuru later trained with Millim and got stronger; after he got stronger, Milim stated she would not problem with Rimuru declaring himself a demon lord (Volume 3 Epilogue). Anubis also made this comparison comment of Benimaru and Carillon (Volume 6 Chapter 4). So, I am not opposed to upgrading Karion and those who power scaled to Karion anymore.

That's what I meant, that during the Charybdis fight Rimuru potentially was still Large Mountain level+ after absorbing Geld 1. He got stronger after training and probably reached Karion's level. Although with this logic, it might be kinda consistent that Charybdis is Island level and so is base Karion, with Rimuru not far behind and eventually catching up due to his immense growth and training.

A statement above that also implies that Treyni really was above the Kijin group especially during Volume 2, as Benimaru and Souei were described to be capable of giving Treyni "a serious run for her money" after their training with Milim (just a nice little tidbit proving how strong Treyni actually is).

Alvis comparing Benimaru and Carillon is also a thing that supports the scaling, I'm just unsure whether it refers to just base Karion or Karion's entire power including his transformed version. Also, you might seem to be using the Yen Press version which describes Karion to be Rank Calamity; in the fan translation (which we consider to be far more reliable), Karion is Rank Disaster.

I think Clayman's second key should probably get updated to 6-A or High 6-B, at the lowest; his power is almost comparable to the Special S rank of Tempest; it is around 70000 to 800000 at 788842 (My reasoning of 2x multiplier look outdated, with the 6-A change) (Volume 16 Chapter 1). The EP value just was unstable. Volume 16 stated Special Rank S is more than 800000. If we low-balled the feat being able to destroy El Dorado at 765 Teratons, then Clayman's AP could (788842/800100)*765 at 754.23 Teratons which is 6-A; low-balled is mentioned since the current 6-A tier kind of scaled and upscaled to Carrerra's 6-A statement.

Won't that make Clayman a little bit too strong, though? And if it's to be accepted, that would boost way too many characters to High 6-B or 6-A, and there might be some huge disparity in between characters.

I'm also not really sure why we would scale Clayman off of the El Dorado feat. Especially since if we're going to use that logic, unawakened Clayman would be High 6-B (361,423/800100)*765 = 345.57 Teratons if we're strictly relying on EP.

Well I'm not entirely sure. It would've been better if we knew the EP of the other Tempest executives for comparison.

When Rimuru made heaven and earth comment since it could be a counterargument, Clayman states he wasn't using his full power (Volume 6 Chapter 5).
Rimuru even commented Clayman's physical attack could have work on him when he absorbed Clayman's projectile attack (Volume 6 Chapter 5). I don't think Rimuru's statement would make sense if Clayman wasn't closed to his tier.
We have the context that Clayman is least comparable to Karion at the worst lowball since Karion thought Rimuru could use his help to awakened Clayman down (Volume 6 Chapter 5). Narrative-wise, Clayman is basically described as awakened in later Volumes so I don't think he way weaker than standard awakened demon lord being.

Rimuru only said things might've went different if Clayman didn't use a projectile (which is completely useless against Beelzebub). Not necessarily that Clayman would've damaged him, just that it wouldn't have been completely useless. He wasn't necessarily hiding his full power either, just that he still had a very strong attack. I think the heaven and earth still applies.

We could at least scale Awakened Clayman to Karion, maybe even a transformed Karion. But that wouldn't be on Rimuru's level.

I think it might be worth pointing out that Rimuru one-shot Kai, whom Mariabell considers to be capable of fighting Karion and Frey. This might only mean base Karion however. It could be that Mariabell is an unreliable narrator as well since she also misjudged Rimuru's power.

I have been confused why would Clayman's key needs to write differently? I would say just make the key about Clayman's full power; it is not like Clayman used a transformation. I know Clayman could scale to Frey since she claimed she at best she has a draw with a Clayman after seeing his full power and had no chance after being awakened (Volume 6 Chapter 5).

Didn't Frey does have a statement of being comparable to Karion?

Frey is often put in the same conversation as Karion, yes. But I don't know how much of that translates to AP.
Frey is also almost featless until the Empire War arc. She's probably at most as strong as base Karion, but we have no idea what her Skills are.
Rimuru states that her magicule is lower than Benimaru's and Shion's, although Shion's is close to Roy Valentine's who in turn is superior to untransformed Karion. So they probably are on the same level. The safest assumption is to put Frey on whatever tier base Karion is, and probably base Clayman within that as well.

I will reply much later since it took me a while to compile scans and review the volume.

Yeah thanks for the help. I myself didn't realize how confusing the tiers of the demon lord class would get when I made the thread.

 

[Elizhaa]

That's what I meant, that during the Charybdis fight Rimuru potentially was still Large Mountain level+ after absorbing Geld 1. He got stronger after training and probably reached Karion's level. Although with this logic, it might be kinda consistent that Charybdis is Island level and so is base Karion, with Rimuru not far behind and eventually catching up due to his immense growth and training.

A statement above that also implies that Treyni really was above the Kijin group especially during Volume 2, as Benimaru and Souei were described to be capable of giving Treyni "a serious run for her money" after their training with Milim (just a nice little tidbit proving how strong Treyni actually is).

Alvis comparing Benimaru and Carillon is also a thing that supports the scaling, I'm just unsure whether it refers to just base Karion or Karion's entire power including his transformed version. Also, you might seem to be using the Yen Press version which describes Karion to be Rank Calamity; in the fan translation (which we consider to be far more reliable), Karion is Rank Disaster.

• I guess it seems like the case.
• I guess Benimaru and Souei got this strong.
• I feel like Karion's entire power; Karion's base aura seems close to comparable Charybdis so I think the statement still can work as evidence for 6-C.

Won't that make Clayman a little bit too strong, though? And if it's to be accepted, that would boost way too many characters to High 6-B or 6-A, and there might be some huge disparity in between characters.

I'm also not really sure why we would scale Clayman off of the El Dorado feat. Especially since if we're going to use that logic, unawakened Clayman would be High 6-B (361,423/800100)*765 = 345.57 Teratons if we're strictly relying on EP.

Well I'm not entirely sure. It would've been better if we knew the EP of the other Tempest executives for comparison.

I forgot to mention this point. The EP value looks to be at a high differential value for weak monsters. For example, a weak A monster character able to destroy a small town while Special A rank looks to be at 7-A to High 7-A from current scaling. I think we could use what is close to rank for power scaling as we kind of do for the Special Rank A.
But, I will postpone this point for much later after more volumes since they are more contexts that I would need to read upon for High 6-B to 6-C. I guess 6-C could work for awakened Clayman, for now.

Frey is often put in the same conversation as Karion, yes. But I don't know how much of that translates to AP.
Frey is also almost featless until the Empire War arc. She's probably at most as strong as base Karion, but we have no idea what her Skills are.
Rimuru states that her magicule is lower than Benimaru's and Shion's, although Shion's is close to Roy Valentine's who in turn is superior to untransformed Karion. So they probably are on the same level. The safest assumption is to put Frey on whatever tier base Karion is, and probably base Clayman within that as well.

I guess Frey scaling to based Karion could work. I guess Clayman could power scaled, also.

Yeah thanks for the help. I myself didn't realize how confusing the tiers of the demon lord class would get when I made the thread.

• Got it; glad to help.

 

[Metalballrun]

I guess it seems like the case.
I guess Benimaru and Souei got this strong.
I feel like Karion's entire power; Karion's base aura seems close to comparable Charybdis so I think the statement still can work as evidence for 6-C.

Yeah, the Kijin group and Treyni would still be Large Mountain level as a safe tier (or perhaps add an "At least"). We can include "Became stronger after training with Milim Nava" to indicate that they increased their strength post Orc Lord.
I think training with Milim in context would really result to increased strength. I remember in the Empire Arc where Milim was willing to give special training to Karion and Frey to turn them into Awakened Demon Lords, so that is something.
That's fair, but with that I think Option B would be the best option since it makes stuff more consistent regarding Karion, so several Post Harvest Festival characters would be bumped to Island level as well, mostly those that I mentioned earlier. However, there would be changes based on this scaling.

I forgot to mention this point. The EP value looks to be at a high differential value for weak monsters. For example, a weak A monster character able to destroy a small town while Special A rank looks to be at 7-A to High 7-A from current scaling. I think we could use what is close to rank for power scaling as we kind of do for the Special Rank A.
But, I will postpone this point for much later after more volumes since they are more contexts that I would need to read upon for High 6-B to 6-C. I guess 6-C could work for awakened Clayman, for now.

Yeah it's kinda confusing, especially since the Ranks could be more of a blanket term that spans different tiers. I'm also convinced that even the weakest of Rank A, A-minus, could destroy small towns, but that's for a later discussion.
The Tempest resident with the closest EP to Clayman is Adalman, almost a hundred thousand higher though. I mostly forgot if Adalman had feats as an awakened demon lord however.
Yeah for now we can settle with that, I think it's logical for Clayman to have at least surpassed Footman and Teare based on his statements before pseudo-awakening.

I guess Frey scaling to based Karion could work. I guess Clayman could power scaled, also.

So Clayman woul be: Island level (comparable to, but weaker than Base Karion. At full power, was able to somewhat competently fight against Shion, albeit was ultimately outclassed) | Island level (should be far stronger than before, his EP doubled with his pseudo-awakening)

And the rest are gonna be either Large Mountain level or At least Large Mountain level for those who have gotten significantly strong (like the Kijin group via Milim training). With some exceptions.

Carillon: Island level (Rimuru described him to be stronger than Treyni. Defeated all three of Dagruel's sons who individually possessed magicule to rival that of un-awakened Clayman, likely while restrained) | Island level (his magicule expands threefold in this form. Was able to numb Milim Nava's arm)
Charys: Island level (as a Flame Lord and named by Veldora, has surpassed Karion and Frey. Without being named, he was already comparable to Souei and Geld)
Diablo: Large Mountain level+ (Effortlessly defeated Razen, who is superior to Hakuro. Likely superior to the Kijin group) [Gruecith (the Beastman in love with Mjurran) has described Diablo's presence to be comparable or even greater than the Beastkeeters and Benimaru]
Footman: Island level (superior to Geld. Was able to fight against Gunther, who is comparable to Roy Valentine.)
Geld (2nd key): Island level (without using his Skills, was able to exchange blows from a restrained Karion for several minutes. A serious blow from Karion didn't bring him down, albeit he was defeated by it)
Laplace: Island level (Superior to Treyni, could easily defeat Roy Valentine when serious)
Ranga (2nd key): Island level (According to Rimuru, Ranga is superior to Geld and can possibly defeat a restrained Karion)
Roy Valentine: Island level (Comparable to Karion)
Souei (2nd key): Island level (Easily defeated Glenda Adley, who can fight evenly with one of his clones)
Treyni: At least Large Mountain level (superior to the Kijin group. Could have taken care of Orc Disaster Geld. Was able to harm Laplace and Charybdis) | Island level (her magicule count doubled, should be superior to Souei and Geld but below Karion) [In the original option B, her AP would be 4.2 Gigatons with a 2x increase so it's not that strange to bump her to this level]

EDIT: Also, the Ten Great Saints would be bumped to Island level as well, no? Since they're comparable to Clayman via Hinata's statements. They obviously didn't stand a chance against Shion (Reynald Jesta IIRC) and Souei (Glenda Adley) though so they just downscale. Sare being only second to Hinata IIRC scales.
Charybdis's Durability would also stay at Island level probably.

Again, thanks for the help.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Carillon: Island level (Rimuru described him to be stronger than Treyni. Defeated all three of Dagruel's sons who individually possessed magicule to rival that of un-awakened Clayman, likely while restrained) | Island level (his magicule expands threefold in this form. Was able to numb Milim Nava's arm)
Diablo: Large Mountain level+ Effortlessly defeated Razen, who is superior to Hakuro. Likely superior to the Kijin group) [Gruecith (the Beastman in love with Mjurran) has described Diablo's presence to be comparable or even greater than the Beastkeeters and Benimaru]
Footman: Island level (superior to Geld. Was able to fight against Gunther, who is comparable to Roy Valentine.)
Geld (2nd key): Island level (without using his Skills, was able to exchange blows from a restrained Karion for several minutes. A serious blow from Karion didn't bring him down, albeit he was defeated by it)
Laplace: Island level (Superior to Treyni, could easily defeat Roy Valentine when serious)
Ranga (2nd key): Island level (According to Rimuru, Ranga is superior to Geld and can possibly defeat a restrained Karion)
Roy Valentine: Island level (Comparable to Karion)
Souei (2nd key): Island level (Easily defeated Glenda Adley, who can fight evenly with one of his clones)
Treyni: At least Large Mountain level (superior to the Kijin group. Could have taken care of Orc Disaster Geld. Was able to harm Laplace and Charybdis) | Island level (her magicule count doubled, should be superior to Souei and Geld but below Karion) [In the original option B, her AP would be 4.2 Gigatons with a 2x increase so it's not that strange to bump her to this level]

I still believe Treyni should be At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level for severing Laplace's arm in her first key.

 

[Metalballrun]

I still believe Treyni should be At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level for severing Laplace's arm in her first key.

She could be At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level with Spirit Fusion/Sylphide. That's how she harmed Laplace and most likely Charybdis as well. I think Gamer mentioned how her spirit fusion also boosted her near Charys's level in future volumes which is consistent with how much it powers her up. I don't have access to the MTLs at the moment though.

It's also worth noting that Laplace's durability can get really vague, and he has been described to be unkillable multiple times with the weird abilities he has.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Yeah, the Kijin group and Treyni would still be Large Mountain level as a safe tier (or perhaps add an "At least"). We can include "Became stronger after training with Milim Nava" to indicate that they increased their strength post Orc Lord.
I think training with Milim in context would really result to increased strength. I remember in the Empire Arc where Milim was willing to give special training to Karion and Frey to turn them into Awakened Demon Lords, so that is something.
That's fair, but with that I think Option B would be the best option since it makes stuff more consistent regarding Karion, so several Post Harvest Festival characters would be bumped to Island level as well, mostly those that I mentioned earlier. However, there would be changes based on this scaling.


Yeah it's kinda confusing, especially since the Ranks could be more of a blanket term that spans different tiers. I'm also convinced that even the weakest of Rank A, A-minus, could destroy small towns, but that's for a later discussion.
The Tempest resident with the closest EP to Clayman is Adalman, almost a hundred thousand higher though. I mostly forgot if Adalman had feats as an awakened demon lord however.
Yeah for now we can settle with that, I think it's logical for Clayman to have at least surpassed Footman and Teare based on his statements before pseudo-awakening.


So Clayman woul be: Island level (comparable to, but weaker than Base Karion. At full power, was able to somewhat competently fight against Shion, albeit was ultimately outclassed) | Island level (should be far stronger than before, his EP doubled with his pseudo-awakening)

And the rest are gonna be either Large Mountain level or At least Large Mountain level for those who have gotten significantly strong (like the Kijin group via Milim training). With some exceptions.

Carillon: Island level (Rimuru described him to be stronger than Treyni. Defeated all three of Dagruel's sons who individually possessed magicule to rival that of un-awakened Clayman, likely while restrained) | Island level (his magicule expands threefold in this form. Was able to numb Milim Nava's arm)
Charys: Island level (as a Flame Lord and named by Veldora, has surpassed Karion and Frey. Without being named, he was already comparable to Souei and Geld)
Diablo: Large Mountain level+ (Effortlessly defeated Razen, who is superior to Hakuro. Likely superior to the Kijin group) [Gruecith (the Beastman in love with Mjurran) has described Diablo's presence to be comparable or even greater than the Beastkeeters and Benimaru]
Footman: Island level (superior to Geld. Was able to fight against Gunther, who is comparable to Roy Valentine.)
Geld (2nd key): Island level (without using his Skills, was able to exchange blows from a restrained Karion for several minutes. A serious blow from Karion didn't bring him down, albeit he was defeated by it)
Laplace: Island level (Superior to Treyni, could easily defeat Roy Valentine when serious)
Ranga (2nd key): Island level (According to Rimuru, Ranga is superior to Geld and can possibly defeat a restrained Karion)
Roy Valentine: Island level (Comparable to Karion)
Souei (2nd key): Island level (Easily defeated Glenda Adley, who can fight evenly with one of his clones)
Treyni: At least Large Mountain level (superior to the Kijin group. Could have taken care of Orc Disaster Geld. Was able to harm Laplace and Charybdis) | Island level (her magicule count doubled, should be superior to Souei and Geld but below Karion) [In the original option B, her AP would be 4.2 Gigatons with a 2x increase so it's not that strange to bump her to this level]

EDIT: Also, the Ten Great Saints would be bumped to Island level as well, no? Since they're comparable to Clayman via Hinata's statements. They obviously didn't stand a chance against Shion (Reynald Jesta IIRC) and Souei (Glenda Adley) though so they just downscale. Sare being only second to Hinata IIRC scales.
Charybdis's Durability would also stay at Island level probably.

Again, thanks for the help.

I agree with everything except Sare doesn't really scale to Hinata. He literally doesn't challenge her because he knows he'd get bodied. Besides being said to be the strongest of the Martial Sages he said to be only second to Hinata. Although he did fight Diablo briefly...and got destroyed but still.

 

[Community_Gamer]

She could be At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level with Spirit Fusion/Sylphide. That's how she harmed Laplace and most likely Charybdis as well. I think Gamer mentioned how her spirit fusion also boosted her near Charys's level in future volumes which is consistent with how much it powers her up. I don't have access to the MTLs at the moment though.

It's also worth noting that Laplace's durability can get really vague, and he has been described to be unkillable multiple times with the weird abilities he has.

No, she was using fusion then. She likely did that against Charybdis (although I am pretty sure she just used Sylphide's Aerial Wind attack). She doesn't use fusion until later during the war against the empire when she fights the angels. She may have also used it the second time she fought Laplace in V14 as well. His unkillablity is due to some regen and possibly immortality.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

She could be At least Large Mountain level, likely Island level with Spirit Fusion/Sylphide. That's how she harmed Laplace and most likely Charybdis as well. I think Gamer mentioned how her spirit fusion also boosted her near Charys's level in future volumes which is consistent with how much it powers her up. I don't have access to the MTLs at the moment though.

It's also worth noting that Laplace's durability can get really vague, and he has been described to be unkillable multiple times with the weird abilities he has.

I'd be fine with that.

 

[Metalballrun]

I agree with everything except Sare doesn't really scale to Hinata. He literally doesn't challenge her because he knows he'd get bodied. Besides being said to be the strongest of the Martial Sages he said to be only second to Hinata. Although he did fight Diablo briefly...and got destroyed but still.

I meant since Sare is only second to Hinata in the Ten Saint's pecking order, it would scale him to Glenda. Most of them would just downscale in some way because they either don't have much feats or can only briefly keep up and is ultimately overwhelmed and outclassed. And yeah obviously Diablo is tiers above Sare.
We also had that Grigori guy who at least was able to take some attacks from Ranga before being crushed (or munched lol).

No, she was using fusion then. She likely did that against Charybdis (although I am pretty sure she just used Sylphide's Aerial Wind attack). She doesn't use fusion until later during the war against the empire when she fights the angels. She may have also used it the second time she fought Laplace in V14 as well. His unkillablity is due to some regen and possibly immortality.

That's what I was saying. She was using Fusion against Laplace in Volume 2, and likely also used it against Charybdis. Hence the 6-C tier for her first key only applies for the fusion, Rimuru only judges her power without it anyways as far as I can tell.

Yeah. I haven't read much of the WN, but Laplace's WN profile has Immortality Type 1 and 2 (with his regen being low-godly). We haven't gotten any in-depth explanation to Laplace's ability (or if there were, I probably glossed over it due to the MTLs being unreadable at times), but he could potentially have the same ability, more or less (like Laplace and the Clowns could potentially have Immortality Type 7 since they're Undead Elves). We'll just see it sooner or later.

 

[Metalballrun]

Speed Downgrades

---

Now that I believe (hope not jinxing) we've cleared the AP for the demon lord breeds and sages for now. I think we'll discuss another potential inconsistencies (yeah) which is the speed downgrades. Especially since this is the part I paid attention the least in the CRT.

---

First of all, Combat Speed.
I think there's nothing wrong with Rimuru (2nd key) and those in these level being Relativistic+ combat speed (specifying combat speed as Rimuru explicitly can't outrun a Relativistic+ attack from a distance without people helping to unquantifiably decrease its speed). Mainly because most of them scale to one another, with the root characters being explicitly described to fight near the speed of light, and other characters perceiving and reacting to them. Rimuru calls the fight in Ruberios as a "light speed battle" even, implying that they are really, really close to light speed.

Characters that are Relativistic+ because of direct scaling via feats are: Rimuru, Hinata, Granbell, Ruminas, Diablo, Razul, Shion, Ranga.

Meanwhile, those who are only comparable (either above or below) to Hakurou (First Key) or Shizue Izawa would remain at Massively Hypersonic. This includes: The Kijin Group (except Shuna), the Beastkeeters (all keys), Ranga (1st key), Geld (First Key), Gabil (First Key), Treyni (1st Key), Adalman, Momiji, Ifrit, the dickheads from Farmus, Gazel, Diablo (first key), Charybdis, and most importantly, Rimuru Tempest (1st key) and Hinata Sakaguchi (1st key).

The questions would now be:

• Should we scale the other Fair Onis to Shion? This would exclude Shuna (apparently she should be slower than them according to the profiles before).
  • If yes, then this would also apply for Geld (comparable to Souei, fought Karion), Treyni (2nd key), Charys, Karion (fought a restrained Milim), Roy Valentine, Laplace, Footman, Clayman (who might actually downscale due to fighting Shion), and the Ten Great Saints, especially Glenda who scales to Souei (even managed to kill 3 of his clones). Gabil is excluded for not having much speed feats Post Harvest Festival.
  • If not, then what should be their speed?
  • If neither, then who should scale? Who shouldn't? And what should be their speed?

These would be the potential inconsistencies:

• Treyni (Massively Hypersonic) was able to tag Laplace (if he's Relativistic+).
• Hinata (first key, Massively Hypersonic) being slower than Glenda (if she's Relativistic+)
• This is more of a query from me. The gap between these two speed tiers is really massive. Did they really have that much increase in speed because of the Harvest Festival? Was Karion simply already too fast for Tempest back in Volume 1-5? Would Clayman (1st Key) actually blitz Rimuru (1st key)?

---

Lastly, Perception Speed.
Basically, what do we do with people who have 1 Million Times Mind Accelerate? I just left it at Massively FTL, but I feel like it's kinda wrong. It's original justification is Rimuru perceiving Melt Slash which was difficult to dodge (way back when Rimuru was still FTL), but Rimuru is downgraded to Relativistic+ now, and both Disintegration and Melt Slash has been described to move near light speed.
I remember being stated in some threads that this perception speed was calculated, but I can't find the calculation.
I believe we should downgrade this as well, but I'm not sure what it should be. Relativistic+? FTL?

Melt Slash being difficult to dodge also feels really like an inconsistency. Considering Hinata could intercept Granbell's Melt Strike which should be at the same speed as well.

---

Conclusion: While Fuse sucks at portraying AP feats, he sucks even harder with speed feats.