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Truth FMA Downgrade

The Prince of Counters said:
He'd need another key for The Eye beyond the Gate tho, since that's heavily implied to be Truth's real form.
Click to expand...
But how would you tier that key? How would you separate the keys?
 
Both are the same entity so they'd both be low 2-C. Truth being the Metaphysical Reflection of who's inside the Gate's Realm, with Truth being what's actually inside the Gate. Think of it as the type of relationship between a gate and a gatekeeper.


So he'd have a Metaphysical Reflection key and a True form key.
 
Did some cleaning up and these are the abilities he should gain.

Mind Manipulation ( can inject one's memory without a massive amount of information all at once. )


Information Manipulation and Information Analysis ( can forcibly show others a massive amount of information in a short span of time by pulling them through the Gate )


BFR ( Can pull people into the Gate of Truth , or send them to a hell-like dimension )

Abstract Existence ( Type:1 Is the universe itself and one with everything, such as The Law of Equivalent Exchange. )

Law Manipulation ( created the Laws of Equivalent Exchange and enforces it.)


Non-Corporeal ( Truth's true body exists beyond the Gate, with his Avatar being Metaphysical.)


Immortality type: 9 ( Truths true self exists beyond the Gate of Truth. )


So it seems Conceptual manipulation comes from the fact that The Law of Equivalent Exchange is composed of two concepts.
 
My thoughts on everything that happened here:

>I'm also fine if Conceptual Manipulation is simply Law Manipulation since he's the one who created the laws of equivalent exchange. Speaking of which, that also implies he created all energy in the Universe, so that seems easily Universal.

I actually agree Law Manipulation sounds more appropriate given Truths role. However, no to the latter and for a few reasons.

First of which, the Law of Equivalent exchange is not some universal force or anything like that where the power of the Universe originates from it. At the absolute best, I recall it was stated that planets themselves have their own Gates of Truth, which would imply the power of planets falls under Equivalent Exchange, but nothing ever says the Universe itself falls under this.

Second, "all energy in the universe" is not Low 2-C. Not necessarily anyway. So this would still leave the possibility of it being 3-A on the table.

>And as for Omnipresence. I know someone brought up Arceus, but I recall there are examples of him being not Omniscient. Like he didn't know Marcus was the one who plotted his downfall instead of Damos. And he did get surprised attacked.

Arceus was incomplete at those times since he lost facets of his power via Jewel of Life. Even so, this is obvious PIS since Uxie, the literal concept of Knowledge in the multiverse incarnate, is only a part of Arceus and would heavily contradict this. Not once was he or Uxie ever granted Omniscience despite clearly being all the knowledge Pokemon has to offer. So either Truth's omniscience is being too easily handed to him, others need upgrades, or our standards for Omniscience in general are the issue.

>Mind you Kama from Fate was orginally upgraded to low 2-C for the same reason. She's stated multiple times to be the universe itself, which apparently is a low 2-C feat.

I can't really comment much on here since I dont know the Fate series or its context whatsoever. But from what her profile says, the universe is apparently "her own body and flesh", making her a sentient and walking space-time continuum. While I ca understand the principle behind the rating, I still honestly dont think this by itself should be flat out Low 2-C. Being the universe is one thing, but if you are only one with the universe in a "state of being" kind of sense rather than the universe relying on your existence to not be destroed, there isn't anything implying actual power comes from that.

If im outvoted here, sure no prob. Im just expressing my doubts.

>I hope people aren't trying to use this as a legitimate anti-feat for Truth.

I dont know who you're referring to here, but im just gonna say im not apart of that. My issue with his Omniscience stems from the standards of Omniscience as a whole and the FMA cosmology, not what others call an anti-feat. So as far as im concerned, im not using this.

>Also the Truth needs a few abilities

I agree with some of these abilities, except the following:

-No to Mind Manipulation. Truth's specifically injecting memories. Seems much more like Memory Manipulation (which id be fine with).

-BFR; I agree with the hax itself, but it has a caveat. And that its useless against anyone who doesnt have Alchemy (or something similar by our standards) since Truth doesn't have dominion over anything that's unrelated to Alchemy.

-Abstract Existence. Would a law be considered a concept? Genunine question because this is something i've never discussed before and it'd be good to know for future reference.
 
His Abstract Existence would be coming from him being one with the Laws of Equivalent Exchange, and the universe itself.


The Truth directly states he's one with the universe, space and everything. This is a clear cut reasoning for low 2-C, and no, stars, celestial bodies and galaxies all have their own Gate of Truth, with trurth also directly stating he is all, it's no different from Kama.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
His Abstract Existence would be coming from him being one with the Laws of Equivalent Exchange, and the universe itself.
Click to expand...
Im asking if Laws can be considered the same as concepts here.

Btw, could you link me the "galaxies have their own gates of truth" bit? Not that I dont believe you, but id like to see this for myself.
 
Kama's low 2-C was because, on top of being the universe itself, she had all of the energy of the universe, and could burn the entire infinite universe to nothing

Just a small correction
 
Paul Frank said:
Kama's low 2-C was because, on top of being the universe itself, she had all of the energy of the universe, and could burn the entire infinite universe to nothing
Just a small correction
Click to expand...
So her being the whole universe wasn't the direct reasoning but just supporting evidence?
 
Father while absorbing just the Gate of Truth of the Earth had control over all known matter in the universe, even Father thinks the amount of enegry he could make with only tiny portion of the Truth's power, with Sun and Earth's gate. Which is what Father does by absorbing the Gates, he gains their energy. But he's incorrect in one regard, The Truth is one with The Universe, not just the world. I.E, he has the energy of the universe due to being one with the universe, similarly how Father gains the earth's and sun's energy by absorbing it's Gate.


So there's two pieces right thers that's the same as Kama.
 
@Kukui

Here is her old AP justification

"At least High Universe level, likely Universe level+ (Stated to be the universe itself and has power of it. Her flames can burn the entire universe and her Noble Phantasm is able to do it as well. Her universe is stated to be infinite in size. Comparable to Kiara Sessyoi and thus is above the likes of BB)"

BB had a High 3-A possibly low 2-C feat as well iirc, and Kama on top of this, was burned with flames said to be able to burn away the entire universe, and due to being burned by those became the universe and connected to the concept of it, gaining those same flames and also being able to burn the universe away


Although this is probably the last I'll say on this cause I don't wanna derail an FMA thread with Fate ovo
 
Paul Frank said:
"At least High Universe level, likely Universe level+ (Stated to be the universe itself and has power of it. Her flames can burn the entire universe and her Noble Phantasm is able to do it as well. Her universe is stated to be infinite in size. Comparable to Kiara Sessyoi and thus is above the likes of BB)"

BB had a High 3-A possibly low 2-C feat as well iirc, and Kama on top of this, was burned with flames said to be able to burn away the entire universe, and due to being burned by those became the universe and connected to the concept of it, gaining those same flames and also being able to burn the universe away
Click to expand...
As I suspected. Once again, this is very different than just "being the universe". Kama's actually provided evidence of actually having it's power, and a plethora of scaling to the tier.
 
I kinda see how being called the universe could only refer to his omnipresence since he has no evidence supporting his Low 2-C AP.
 
Gates produce a certain amount of energy, we see this with Father absorbing the energy of the Earth's and Sun's Portal of Truth gaining the energy from them both. Truth states that he isn't only the sun and earth, but the universe itself. Furthermore Father states the Earth and Sun have their own consciousness.


I've provided scans and arguments for this above, not sure why people are skimming over it.
 
If we aren't scaling people to low 2C anymore cause they are the universe itself then we have a lot of profiles to revise
 
Not that im glossing over your explanation Prince, but I don't fully see how absorbing energy from the earth and sun's gate of truth leads to having the energy of the universe, let alone Low 2-C.
 
Because Father orginally thought that's what Truth encompassed, Truth later corrects it by stating that he's one with the Universe. Not to mention The False Portal is endless in size, something based off of The Gate of Truth.
 
Okay, but like I said, how does that lead to having universal energy? We just went over why encompassing the universe doesn't automatically mean you have universal AP.
 
.... you obviously aren't aware of the points of the Gates or the point of Fathet absorbing them. He attempted to absorb God into him, by absorbing the Enegry of the Sun and Earth through their Gates of Truth, thus absorbing God. Thus gaining the energy as stated multiple times. And Father could barely handle that, once he's taken away Truth states that he's not only one with The Earth and Stars, but the universe itself. I.E, he has the energy of the universe, similarly to how Father had the energy of the Sun and Earth. This concept is stated multiple times by Father and literally the point of his plan.
 
>.... you obviously aren't aware of the points of the Gates or the point of Fathet absorbing them. He attempted to absorb God into him, by absorbing the Enegry of the Sun and Earth through their Gates of Truth, thus absorbing God. Thus gaining the energy as stated multiple times

But the issue is, this isn't a universe level feat.

>And Father could barely handle that, once he's taken away Truth states that he's not only one with The Earth and Stars, but the universe itself. I.E, he has the energy of the universe, similarly to how Father had the energy of the Sun and Earth.

See above. We just went over how encompassing the universe alone doesn't necessarily mean you have the power of the universe at your disposal. In addition, your making a confusing connection here. Father was gaining the energy of the Earth and Sun because he was absorbing them through their Gates of Truth. Truth being the universe doesn't mean there's a Gate of Truth that possesses the energy of the universe like there's one for the Earth and Sun.
 
But the issue is this isn't a universal feat.


According to you, according to several users including an admin agree it's indeed a universal feat.


See above. We just went over how encompassing the universe alone doesn't necessarily mean you have the power of the universe at your disposal. In addition, your making a confusing connection here. Father was gaining the energy of the Earth and Sun because he was absorbing them through their Gates of Truth. Truth being the universe doesn't mean there's a Gate of Truth that possesses the energy of the universe like there's one for the Earth and Sun.


No, you read above, the majority of users here agree with it being a clear cut universal feat. The Gate of the Truth is literally apart of the Truth, his true form lies within the Gate. If Truth is the Universe then the Universe has it's own Gate of Truth. Your leaving out context here, and ignoring how the verse is literally set up. So you'll either have to accept it as is, or make a thread in general about universal feats like these.
 
>No, you read above, the majority of users here agree with it being a clear cut universal feat.

If the Universe has it's own gate of truth, then you should have just led with that earlier.

However, Low 2-C is still being assumed instead of it being just 3-A. I can accept having "energy of the universe" via the gate, but depending on interpretation and context, Low 2-C can still be wrong. So if we take this interpretation, and treat it as having the energy of the universe, you would still need to prove this is the power of an entire space-time continuum and not just the 3-A energy of the physical universe.
 
I do agree with Truth being the Sun and the Earth and the Universe. I also remember/agree Gluttony's false gate was described to be endless.
 
ElixirBlue said:
I also remember/agree Gluttony's false gate was described to be endless.
Click to expand...
It was stated, but its not exactly much of a feat when the false gate's dimension is pretty much just some kind of void rather than a whole universe.
 
I'm pretty sure containing the enegry of the entire universe is bare minimum High 3-A. And no, Gluttony's False Gate is a realm in between Truth and Reality, and Truth still has access to it as seem with Edward still being able to use alchemy while inside and summoning the Gate.
 
A realm yeah but not an actual universe.

And nah, having the energy of the whole universe is just 3-A. High 3-A is this:

"Characters who demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D area or an infinite number of finite or infinite universes when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time, or more generally any area of comparable size. Large numbers of infinite universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being "infinitely" stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier."
 
Key word: Based off.

Gluttony's realm is supposed to be a failed experiment of Truth's gate, so I don't think it should be assumed to be an actual universe, but just a realm thats filled with mostly nothing but darkness.
 
Mostly nothing but dark is selling it short, it's an endless realm with endless darkness as stated mutiple times. The only difference between it and the Gate of Truth is that The False Gate doesn't have nearly the same amount of energy as the Gate of Truth and instead of pure whiteness it's pure darkness.
 
It being endless doesn't matter, because what exactly would be inside it? Nothing but darkness.

This is akin to the whole World of Void having "infinite nothingness" inside of it.
 
A river of blood that's enough to flood the flooring, all the destruction over the course of hundreds of years, the fact that when Ed and Ling walked for hours they felt as if the Realm had no edge, which Envy later confirms several times. And the fact that The Truth's Realm is directly tied to him, which is big enough to fit endless pure white.


And that argument doesn't work, Word of Void isn't stated to be infinite.
 
Your escalating the scope of the feat now. Again, I don't deny its endless, im saying it just doesn't matter. Having an endless realm with very little matter inside of it while most of it is occupied by practically nothing isn't much of a feat.

I used World of Void as an argument because prior to the translations debunking it, this was exactly the same case. A void being infinite, but filled with nothing but nothingness, shouldnt be a feat because there's nothing there to effect.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
A river of blood that's enough to flood the flooring, all the destruction over the course of hundreds of years, the fact that when Ed and Ling walked for hours they felt as if the Realm had no edge, which Envy later confirms several times. And the fact that The Truth's Realm is directly tied to him, which is big enough to fit endless pure white.
Click to expand...
None of that is enough to prove it's infinite in size. Two humans walking for hours don't cover much of a distance. AFAIK Envy never used the word "infinite" or "endless", he just said there is no exit and no way to get out.

I don't recall Truth's realm being endless either. Plus, someone getting universal AP by saying that he is the universe in a vague manner that can be interpreted as being omnipresent, without any solid evidence is questionable at the very least.

I don't even recall the scope of the verse ever going beyond the sun / our solar system.
 
Ling states that there's endless Darkness, and it's heavily implied that the realm is bottomless as well, further supported by Envy's statement, it's a Realm that exists between Truth and Reality. It's a false Gate without all the energy the True Gate possesses, and instead of pure whiteness it's Darkness.


By The Gate of Truth being something universal in nature, which would require the energy of the universe to maintain. This is shown with Father only absorbing a small portion of The Truth, and took the energy from them, containing all of it. Truth is also The Universe, which Father wasn't aware of, so Truth would still contain said universe's energy.
 
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