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Truth FMA Downgrade

The interpretation of merely abstract omnipresence is wrong. He's physically the universe.

"I don't even recall the scope of the verse ever going beyond the sun / our solar system"

This is meaningless. Why should we assume a "universe" isn't the conventional definition of universe? There's no evidence for or against their verse being a solar system and nothing more so we go by the conventional definition.
 
"Ling states that there's endless Darkness"

Ling and Ed aren't a least bit knowledgeable and are limited by their human comprehension. There is no way they travelled such a distance to reach that conclusion, and given their lack of knowledge, their word can't be taken literally.

"further supported by Envy's statement, it's a Realm that exists between Truth and Reality."

That doesn't suggest infinite or endless.

"By The Gate of Truth being something universal in nature, which would require the energy of the universe to maintain."

Citation needed.

"This is shown with Father only absorbing a small portion of The Truth, and took the energy from them, containing all of it."

I don't understand how Father gaining a small portion of truth prove anything regarding Truth having universal AP?

"Truth is also The Universe, which Father wasn't aware of, so Truth would still contain said universe's energy."

Truth being the universe, or the world, or god could just mean he is present everywhere in existence and is the highest form of being. Doesn't really give any idea about his AP.


I didn't say the universe in FMA is limited to the solar system. I meant the scope of the verse power-wise never goes beyond that.
 
Oh right. Sorry for misunderstanding. Either way I still think Truth is physically the universe, it calls himself it and space itself. If being the construct is accepted as that tier then it's fine.
 
Ling and Ed aren't a least bit knowledgeable and are limited by their human comprehension. There is no way they travelled such a distance to reach that conclusion, and given their lack of knowledge, their word can't be taken literally.


An asinine claim to make, Edward and Ling are indeed very knowledgeable, Edward is a genius Alchemist and has information directly from The Gate of Truth. At best you'd be able to claim Ling isn't knowledgable and considering how smart Ling is in his own right, and the fact that he has The Dragon's Pulse makes this point moot.


That doesn't suggest infinite or endless.


Is stated to be a void of endless Darkness, is stated to have no end or an exit. This seems pretty cut-clear to me.


Citation needed.


Read the previous scans, the enegry of the Gate's require the same amount of energy to maintain it. As seen with Father absorbing the energy of the Sun and Earth via The Gates.


I don't understand how Father gaining a small portion of truth prove anything regarding Truth having universal AP?


Because The Truth is The Gate, Father orginally thought by absorbing just the Sun and Earth he could absorb God, which God later corrects by stating he's the World, Everything, The Universe and it's space.


Truth being the universe, or the world, or god could just mean he is present everywhere in existence and is the highest form of being. Doesn't really give any idea about his AP.


The Truth is the Universe itself and needs a certain amount of energy to sustain it, I've explained this multiple times. The Truth's existence is similar to that of Akasha's from The Nasuverse, although he should get his profile deelted for being a dimension / universe / force rather than an actual person.
 
Yeah I'll come back to this later.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Truth should be Low 2-C. It obviously encompasses space and time.
Click to expand...
Which is being disputed as not being sufficient enough for Low 2-C. But since AKM said he'll get back to this with rebuttals, im gonna wait and see what he says again.
 
There are plenty of synonyms of Space-Time, but those examples should be posted yes.
 
Does a character's encompasses of all space and time indicate that he is the past, future, and present of the entire universe or is he just the only single point of spacetime? (also bump)
 
I have no horse in this race whatsoever so I don't really care about this but if AKM and Kukui are right then that could be 3-A justification, I've dealt with characters who were 3-A with more loose reasoning before (before you ask Draedon's statement on the matter is what makes Yharim and pretty much every other top-tier in Calamity Low 2-C(basically implying that universe=timeline, before they were all 3-A with a possibly Low 2-C until further notice), I won't say god-tier because Xeroc is pretty featless and is planned for Calamity, this is derailing though)

I agree with nigh-omniscience for Truth, but the actual Omniscience page would have to have its picture changed because Truth's grey, blank face is plastered all over it lol

I do think that Truth has Law Manipulation based off of that, but Law Manipulation is something I haven't dealt with before so yeah, I also agree with Kukui on the ability additions.
 
Bernkastelll said:
if you are a thing, you aren't the tier of the thing? he is a univere itself
Click to expand...
I don't think so. I mean, you are all of yourself, yet you actually don't have sufficient attack power to blow yourself up.
You can't even control everything about yourself. Why would Truth have more control over, say, Mars than you have over your own kidney?

And a universe as body is even less suited for this than a human, since a universe doesn't have muscles or any similar construct with the purpose of manipulating itself.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I don't think so. I mean, you are all of yourself, yet you actually don't have sufficient attack power to blow yourself up.
Click to expand...
I still have my own AP and Dura (10-C)
DontTalkDT said:
And a universe as body is even less suited for this than a human, since a universe doesn't have muscles or any similar construct with the purpose of manipulating itself.
Click to expand...
Abstract Beings and incorporeal beings have AP, that isnt a problem
 
Bernkastelll said:
I still have my own AP and Dura (10-C)
Click to expand...
Yes, but that is unrelated of your body and its size. Your stats are less than the AP needed to destroy your own body in a single blow and, in fact, unrelated. Take a giant tree for a better example. Big body that would take lots of AP to destroy in one shot, but virtually 0 AP. The bugs and other animals living in the tree have more AP than the tree itself.

Bernkastelll said:
Abstract Beings and incorporeal beings have AP, that isnt a problem
Click to expand...
It's very much a problem if you have no other feats on such a scale. You can't just assume it's able to do something, just because it theoretically might be able to do so via magic it didn't demonstrate.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Yes, but that is unrelated of your body and its size. Your stats are less than the AP & Dura needed to destroy your own body and, in fact, unrelated. Take a giant tree for a better example. Big body that would take lots of AP to destroy in one shot, but virtually 0 AP. The bugs and other animals living in the tree have more AP than the tree itself.


It's very much a problem if you have no other feats on such a scale. You can't just assume it's able to do something, just because it theoretically might be able to do so via magic it didn't demonstrate.
Click to expand...
does it affect things like Dura after all? and Truth isnt like a tree, he can move and act as well
 
DaReaperMan said:
I do think that Truth has Law Manipulation based off of that, but Law Manipulation is something I haven't dealt with before so yeah, I also agree with Kukui on the ability additions.
Click to expand...
truth created the law of alchemy, it should be Law Manip, similar to God from bruce almigthy, that has law manip from creating the 10 commandments, or something similar
 
Reguarding Omniscient

How you can evalutate a omniscient entity to be susprised with a vague facial expression, Truth was just testing Ed, indeed Truth was discouraging him not to make him choose to lose alchemy, but Ed chose it anyway.

at least another proof for nigh omniscient
 
if you are omniscient then you know everything that there is to know in the verse, Truth was suprised by something, that alone should be enough to downgrade from omniscient to Nigh-Omniscient.
 
DaReaperMan said:
if you are omniscient then you know everything that there is to know in the verse, Truth was suprised by something, that alone should be enough to downgrade from omniscient to Nigh-Omniscient.
Click to expand...

What about Truth communicated to you that he was surprised? Also, forgot this too lol
 
DaReaperMan said:
if you are omniscient then you know everything that there is to know in the verse, Truth was suprised by something, that alone should be enough to downgrade from omniscient to Nigh-Omniscient.
Click to expand...
what is the scan that contradict the omniscient? can u show it, i dont remember it
 
DaReaperMan said:
I have no horse in this race whatsoever so I don't really care about this
Click to expand...
this kind of implies I don't care about Full Metal Alchemist, also hasn't it been pretty consistently stated as early as the fifth comment on this CRT that Truth was surprised that Ed chose the right answer and decided to trade Al for his own Door?
 
DaReaperMan said:
it been pretty consistently stated as early as the fifth comment on this CRT that Truth was surprised that Ed chose the right answer and decided to trade Al for his own Door?
Click to expand...

That individual was mistaken and 'consistently' would mean I didn't have an issue with that interpretation a year ago
 
Bernkastelll said:
does it affect things like Dura after all? and Truth isnt like a tree, he can move and act as well
Click to expand...
The truth can move and act using a small avatar. It hasn't demonstrated moving and acting using the entire universe as a body. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this debate.

Not sure what you mean with the dura part. The truth is technically quite durable due to sheer size.

Regarding the omniscience thing: Can someone remind me when the Truth was even stated to be omniscient?
 
well, I know about as much on Full Metal Alchemist as I do on Naruto, which is barely anything because what little I've seen hasn't interested me in the slightest, I'm mostly here because I want the most accurate statistics that we can get on the wiki, I'm a neutral party so yeh
 
deonment said:
due to him being everything in the verse it would be assumed that he would know everything
Click to expand...

That, and he is aware of the actions taken by Father and Edward Elric, with no explanations how he knows such things, other than "I am You".
 
@ElixirBlue
That's a statement of omnipresence. Omnipresence doesn't imply omniscience.
deonment said:
due to him being everything in the verse it would be assumed that he would know everything
Click to expand...
Not really. Omniscience also requires you to remember everything that ever happened, know everything that ever will happen (and could happen, but will not happen) and know information regarding things that have nothing to do with something that happens in the world. It for example also requires you to know all of mathematics, even the parts that are in no way related to anything that happens in reality and can't be deduced by any non-supernatural means.
Being everything makes you at most nigh-omniscient on grounds of vast cosmic awareness.
 
DontTalkDT said:
It for example also requires you to know all of mathematics, even the parts that are in no way related to anything that happens in reality and can't be deduced by any non-supernatural means.
Click to expand...

So, by Truth stating he is "the Truth", in a world of Alchemy, that characters in the verse seek the entity "Truth" for greater knowledge, that Truth knows because as he states he is "the Truth" of the verse, doesn't qualify?
 
in order to qualify for Omniscient you need to know everything that has happened, is happening, and might/will happen, Truth's issue is we can't prove the ladder
 
DaReaperMan said:
if you are omniscient then you know everything that there is to know in the verse, Truth was suprised by something, that alone should be enough to downgrade from omniscient to Nigh-Omniscient.
Click to expand...
man there is no statament, there is just truth having a """"""""""""""surprised"""""""" face, that's not enough for downgrade, among other it can just be a canon issue or plot issue (or whatever)

at least another if not more stataments are needed, he reapeted his omniscient 2 or more times
 
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