True Reset Downgrade and Basic Reset Upgrade

[Adem_Warlock69]

So right now the True Reset is treated as if it erases the entire Undertale Multiverse which is plain wrong.

Flowey clearly states that it will only effect the True pacifist Timeline

"If you so choose…
Everyone will be ripped from this timeline…
…and sent back before all of this ever happened.
Nobody will remember anything."

and when he said "One being with the power to erase EVERYTHING…" the Everything was just talking about the Timeline

"One being with the power to erase EVERYTHING…
Everything everyone's worked so hard for."

"YOU still have the power to reset everything.
Toriel, Sans, Asgore, Alphys, Papyrus, Undyne…
If you so choose…
Everyone will be ripped from this timeline…"

and Asriel states he would only reset the Timeline with his True Reset

• After I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... I just want to reset everything. (Before Chaos Saber)
• All your progress... Everyone's memories. I'll bring them all back to zero! (Before Shocker Breaker)

And we know he was talking about the True Reset and Not the Basic Reset

"That power.
I know that power.
That's the power you were fighting to stop, wasn't it?
The power that I wanted to use."

"Still you're hanging on...? That's fine. In a few moments, you'll forget everything, too. That attitude will serve you well in your next life!"

So Yeah...The True Reset is just a reset that just has better Memory Erasure

But The Basic Reset is indeed Low 2-C

We Know Frisk somehow destroyed multiple Timelines before fighting Sans

• you'll keep consuming timelines over and over, until... well. hey. take it from me, kid. someday... you gotta learn when to QUIT. [Attack #18]

and Sans does know about Resets (But he doesn't Remember them)

• knowing that one day, without any warning... it's all going to be reset. [Attack #6]

there's also this

• our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... [Attack #2]

and we know the Timeline destroyer can't be Save Files, because Omega Flowey can return to a save file that was replaced by multiple other save files, so Yeah, it's the reset

and The Reset is a Low 2-C attack as we Know there are differant Sans-es from every Run

• woah, you look REALLY pissed off... heheheh... did i getcha? well, if you came back anyway... i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh? heh. don't tell that to the other sans-es, ok? [Attack #14 if the protagonist previously tried sparing Sans]

the characters that get effected by this are Frisk,Flowey and Anomaly

Flowey also had the True Reset before Frisk came around

"That power.
I know that power."

and It's impossible for him to know it from Asriel as Frisk had more determination,like when Omega Flowey had more determination, Asriel wouldn't have the True Reset button but a Restart button, and Flowey must have had it to know all this information about it.

so...

Flowey would have "9-A, Low 2-C with Reset and True Reset"

Frisk would have "9-A, Low 2-C with Reset"

and Anomaly would be downgraded to 'Unknown, Low 2-C with True Reset"

 

[AstroGhost]

I agree with it. It adds more potential in its "bases", and clarifies things better.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

So does this mean Asriel Dreemurr also gets downgraded to Low 2-C?

 

[AstroGhost]

I don't see why. Asriel is still drastically superior to Photoshop Flowey. And it was going to destroy the "World" just for existing (well, World was referred to several as the Undertale Multiverse [so much so that Chara and OF modified the game claiming to be destroying that world / creating a new one])

It's basically a change in the effect of Reset / True Reset, which they thought was worth the whole game

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Okay. I guess Asriel can stay at 2-B then.


I'm neutral regarding this, however I'm not sure which other staff members, besides Azzy are truly knowledgeable on Undertale.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

So does this mean Asriel Dreemurr also gets downgraded to Low 2-C?

Well the only reason why he's 2-B is because he scales infinitely above Photoshop Flowey, and Flowey is above Chara, so no

he only wanted to True Reset to keep himself and Frisk in an endless cycle so Frisk never leaves the Underground

 

[Starter_Pack]

This...really does make sense. I'll accept this.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Makes sense, i agree.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Wait, since when did we ever scale Chara to Flowey? Nothing supports that. I'm fine with the gowngrade, but the scalling is wrong.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Wait, since when did we ever scale Chara to Flowey? Nothing supports that. I'm fine with the gowngrade, but the scalling is wrong.

I'm pretty sure it was because of stats, I think undyne the undying is scaled to chara as well.

Edit: scratch that the scaling with undyne seems to have been revised sense I last looked at the page

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Wait, since when did we ever scale Chara to Flowey? Nothing supports that. I'm fine with the gowngrade, but the scalling is wrong.

It's being discussed in Saikou's thread, Flowey scaled because of the statement that He had a plan to become stronger than Chara and his/her stolen Soul, but this was likely talking about Genocide Frisk, and also LV 9999, but that also scales to Genocide Frisk and not Chara

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Chara has no stats as far as I'm aware. So in that case, Asriel shouldn't be scaled above Chara because we can't scale these characters since they've never fought nor does Chara have stats to be based off of.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Reset means reset. Resetting a multiverse of that size is 2-B. So I disagree.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with this as well.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Reset means reset. Resetting a multiverse of that size is 2-B. So I disagree.

Resets seems to stop the timeline the're used in, and the True Reset doesn't effect a multiverse, flowey states it will only effect the pacifist timeline

 

[Eficiente]

Actually, I'm a bit confused as to why any of this is Low 2-C if it just turns back time, which is hax. Things like "Everyone will be ripped from this timeline" and "gain control over the timeline" is just poetic in relation to that, or maybe I'm missing something? Other thing I wanted to disagree with since a while is the Memory Erase (and resistance to it), it's not that power at all, it's just the type 1 Acausality not working.

To clarify my other comment was as in this being more close to Low 2-C than to 2-B.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Because when Genocide Frisk used it, it stopped a timeline which would be Low 2-C,I think..., Sans doesn't explain it well

I guess True Reset gets Acausality négation or something like that?

 

[Eficiente]

You mean based on Sans talking about timelines "stopping and starting"? If so then he means something much simpler than that.

I would love to say that their Acausality is pretty bad and that it stops working on its own, but yes type 1 Acausality negation is quite possible, it being done little by little via LOADing over and over again, and making a True Reset.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

That and Frisk consuming timelines.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, it's poetic, it could be said that Marty McFly and Doc Brown were doing the same through their movies. Any change to a timeline (say, LOADing) makes it another timeline, thus all the timelines that aren't used anymore can be said to be ending and be consumed by Frisk. That's not wrong.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

But he got the stopping and starting from the reports that warned him about Chara destroying all the Timelines, I don't think those reports were being poetic.

and if Frisk consuming timelines was just him/her not using them anymore, It doesn't seem like something Sans would tell Frisk to Quit and be treated as a threat to the Undertale Timelines

 

[Eficiente]

There are quite the headcanons there, which is why it looks so different than what was really said. Given how I just pointed out something to be interpreted in another simpler way showing the quotes you are referring to would make this easier.

There is no proof of the reports warning him about Chara destroying all the timelines (and by that I meant it didn't happen because of it), what Sans says fits with what LOADing does. I never said that the reports themselves were poetic, some of the things Sans says are (it's not like we do make timelines jump left and right anyway).

"Not using them [the timelines] anymore" is quite generous, everyone isn't literally ripped from the timeline into another and the prior timeline is left there doing nothing. You change timeline A, it warps into timeline B, no more timeline A, it's gone, it wasn't destroyed via AP, other events just happened in it and it turned into other timeline. Hence the "timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting" (the jumping is just kinda there).

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Sorry, but can you please explain the reports not warning him about Chara destroying everything? I didn't understand it...

Wouldn't that make a Low 2-C chain reaction? Something like What Enrico has?Because there's a different sans for every Run?

• woah, you look REALLY pissed off... heheheh... did i getcha? well, if you came back anyway... i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh? heh. don't tell that to the other sans-es, ok? [Attack #14 if the protagonist previously tried sparing Sans]

Also doesn't that contradict the existence of multiple timelines? If Saving,Loading and Reseting only changes the same timeline, wouldn't that make it so there exits only one timeline, not multiple and definitely not enough for a 2-B rating?

 

[Eficiente]

The context of what he says before and after that makes it more likely for him to be talking about everyone getting resetted, and that being tragic.

Undertale doesn't fully explain some things but that surprisingly still makes perfect sense.

• See, you LOAD, you are in timeline B, let's say timeline A still exists; is there another you in timeline A? No, hence the Acausality & other context to point out the same. Are all the characters in timeline A still there living their lifes without you? Also no.
  • Therefore, what Sans said can be taken as in, you LOADing to presently tell that to another Sans, and repeating the process to tell that to other Sans in other timelines, and so on. This would oppose interpretations like "other Frisks in other existing timelines telling that to other Sans-es" or even "travelling to other existing timelines to tell that to other Sans-es". Because there may not be other timelines, only one that is changed into another over and over.

2-B comes via someone being stronger than other character (which is another matter and may be changed in the future), thing is 2-B doesn't come from the size of the multiverse.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Well there are some problems with that like if LOADing and Resetting only went back in time, Asriel wouldn't have been able to use the True Reset, cause he already destroyed the Timeline the're in.

And the "Suddenly Everything ends" is likely talking about Chara as he says after seeing what you're going to do, he can't efford to not care anymore, so it's something above the Reset, and he later says "Don't say I didn't warn you" a.k.a he already told you what it is he's trying stop,.

 

[Eficiente]

Well there are some problems with that like if LOADing and Resetting only went back in time, Asriel wouldn't have been able to use the True Reset, as he already destroyed the Timeline the're in, the True Resetting wouldn't work, so the only way for him to get it back is if he makes a New one with his True Reset.

The response to this is exactly what you may think it is. Also what again is the other take on this? It's something that would make sense to work without a timeline?

The "Don't say I didn't warn you" was indeed Sans having some knowledge that something bad was going to happen to Frisk, that much is true. He knew about the destruction of the timeline? Nothing says that, he knew destruction of the timelines? That just comes out of nowhere. Look at the context of the "Suddenly everything ends";

• Before it we have "Timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting. . .", stopping can be that everything ends.
• After it we have; "You can't understand how this feels. Knowing that one day, without any warning. . . It's all going to be reset." Odd to ignore the supposed destruction he supposedly knew, he just keeps talking about the stopping/reset. Maybe the last thing he said was on it too? Hmm?
• "Cause even if we do. . . We'll just end up right back here, without any memory of it, right?" He keeps talking about the reset.
• "It makes it kind of hard to give it my all. . . . Or is that just a poor excuse for being lazy. . . ? Hell if i know. All i know is. . . Seeing what comes next. . . I can't afford not to care anymore." Sad and all but you would think that he would talk about the destruction he supposedly knew, yes?

Anyway, those quotes weren't even necessary, your evidence of Sans knowing that wasn't correct and proving that he didn't know something is not a thing.

 

[Elizhaa]

I will say I am neutral on the OP because I am missing some knowledge on the verse. I think it would be a good idea to get Saikou's inputs since he is familiar with the verse

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Somebody should ask Saikou and the other staff members listed in the Undertale verse page to comment here.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Going back in time wouldn't work in a destroyed timeline, so LOADing wouldn't work, but the True Reset could, and would have brought everything back to zero, which would only make sense if it was going to make a new one.

That makes sense, so the Suddenly everything ends is the Reset, would that mean it destroyed the Timeline?

 

[Eficiente]

It's pretty good time manip, really.

Destroy as in Low 2-C AP, no, otherwise yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Somebody should ask Saikou and the other staff members listed in the Undertale verse page to comment here.

Has anybody done this yet?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Yes. Somebody should ask Saikou and the other staff members listed in the Undertale verse page to comment here.

Has anybody done this tet?

Should I do it again?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

It's pretty good time manip, really.
Destroy as in Low 2-C AP, no, otherwise yes.

Well, It wouldn't really make sense

Well he treated the "Suddenly everything ends" as something above the "Stopping and Starting"

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, feel free to politely remind them. You can tell them that I would appreciate their help.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, It wouldn't really make sense

Well he treated the "Suddenly everything ends" as something above the "Stopping and Starting"

So what? They don't need to think that far into the implications of what they do, may I remind you that the lost souls were able to move ad talk without a timeline?

Headcanon.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Wasn't the Lost Souls part an outliar?

Not really,

• our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... [Attack #2]
• until suddenly, everything ends. [Attack #3]

That's like saying "Timelines are stopping and starting, until suddenly, Timelines Stopped"

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

either way, The Anomaly is getting Downgraded

 

[Eficiente]

This should be done

• Everyone with "Minor resistance to Memory Erasure" should have that removed.
• Reset and True Reset are just time manip.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do the rest of you think?