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True Godly Regenerationn
- Thread starter Sera_EX
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- immortality regeneration
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@Sera:
Unless you define a logical system of multi-valued logic (the existence of which I wanted to note on the transduality page as you remind me), in which you can work with more truth states than true or false, such definitions as "something that is neither" just doesn't lead anywhere.
How would you, for example, know that the state you define is actually one in which the character can not fight any more? After all that isn't explicit part of the definition of the state and neither can you reason it, because the state isn't part of the logical system you work in.
Similarly you can not actually show that the "absolute zero" state you want to put the character into has any property that is different from normal non-existence.
Hence you also couldn't conclude that a character with High-Godly regen wouldn't regenerate when put into the state.
Even if you put every property the state should have in the definition, due to the lack of applicability of the logical system to the state it isn't given that in this state the opposite, both or non aren't true either.
Essentially once you define something as "beyond logic" any further information about it is irrelevant, because beyond logic means the meaning of any other description of the state in any scenario is uncertain.
You can not reason what happens when something beyond reason is involved.
As such how impressive it is to regenerate from being put into a state beyond logic is also not something that can be known. For all we know it might be the easiest thing in the world.
Unless you define a logical system of multi-valued logic (the existence of which I wanted to note on the transduality page as you remind me), in which you can work with more truth states than true or false, such definitions as "something that is neither" just doesn't lead anywhere.
How would you, for example, know that the state you define is actually one in which the character can not fight any more? After all that isn't explicit part of the definition of the state and neither can you reason it, because the state isn't part of the logical system you work in.
Similarly you can not actually show that the "absolute zero" state you want to put the character into has any property that is different from normal non-existence.
Hence you also couldn't conclude that a character with High-Godly regen wouldn't regenerate when put into the state.
Even if you put every property the state should have in the definition, due to the lack of applicability of the logical system to the state it isn't given that in this state the opposite, both or non aren't true either.
Essentially once you define something as "beyond logic" any further information about it is irrelevant, because beyond logic means the meaning of any other description of the state in any scenario is uncertain.
You can not reason what happens when something beyond reason is involved.
As such how impressive it is to regenerate from being put into a state beyond logic is also not something that can be known. For all we know it might be the easiest thing in the world.
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- #83
It is noted on the Transduality page that no human definition can truly express it and that any attemps to do so is just an artisitic vision or human representation.
High godly regen is being erased from 1 and regenerating. The size of the setting does not matter. Reality is a binary logical code.
High godly regen is being erased from 1 and regenerating. The size of the setting does not matter. Reality is a binary logical code.
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I have performed the required edits:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Regenerationn&diff=1001117&oldid=894530
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Regenerationn&diff=1001117&oldid=894530
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Transduality can be expressed by humans. That is a fact. You underestimate human capabilities.Sera Loveheart said:
As such it is also not certain that reality is a binary code, that is just the way we humans usually prefer to understand it, since it is easy and gives the best results as far as we can tell.
And if it is beyond human definition and understanding, what do we do with this ability then? After all we can not predict the consequence it has in a battle either if we can not understand it at all (and if we take it strictly neither can we explain the requirement to get it, since that would require a level of understanding)
Also being "outside" of a binary setting, by having a non-binary state, is far away from necessarily being superior or unaffected by the setting.
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So should I change "To qualify for True Godly Regenerationn, a character must be able to regenerate from being erased from the duality of both binary existence and nonexistence, whereas it is only necessary to be able to recover from the former in order to warrant a High-Godly rating" into "To qualify for True Godly Regenerationn, a character must be able to regenerate from being erased from both existence and nonexistence, whereas it is only necessary to be able to recover from the former in order to warrant a High-Godly rating", without the "duality" part?
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- #88
That is not true transduality. I am sorry. And why say I underestimate the capabilities of humans? I never said or implied that or at least I didn't mean to. Human expression cannot express true transdualism, something that is, in fact, strictly a theological concept applied in the field of metaphysics. "True", "False", and "Unknown" go outside of binary? No they do not. "True", "False", "Unknown" (one part of the binary) and "Not True", "Not False", "Not Unknown" (another part of the binary), and what about something more?
Infinite values? Without ifninite values. So no infinity doesn't count. Everything is either one or the other.
Something either exists or does not exist. So what do you call something that is both? Or lacks both? You cannot express them because our logic is binary (on a higher level).
True transduality cannot be expressed because it is paradoxical, just like everyone's favorite word.
Infinite values? Without ifninite values. So no infinity doesn't count. Everything is either one or the other.
Something either exists or does not exist. So what do you call something that is both? Or lacks both? You cannot express them because our logic is binary (on a higher level).
True transduality cannot be expressed because it is paradoxical, just like everyone's favorite word.
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I would like to point out that it is very likely that this will give NLF characters more NLF fuel (ex: 682)
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@Sera: You say it's not true transduality, but you don't give any reason for that.
You just say that it isn't.
Transduality is defined as working on more than the binary oppositions, which is exactly what multi-valued logic does.
Instead of true (1) and false (0), it for example has all numbers between 0 and 1 as truth values.
So it is very specifically working on a basis that is beyond duality.
For example a statement like "x is in M" would in multi-valued logic not necessarily by true or false. It could instead be 0.65 as truth value. Hence "there exists a x that is in M" could also have such a truth value.
Finding a logic in which a statement is both true and false is even easier. Take Naive set theory. Russels antinomy shows a statement, in which an element is and isn't part of a set at once.
The reason I say you underestimate human capabilities is that you say humans can only think in binary logic, while in truth we can think in logic of however many truth values we would like to have and in which statements can take any amount of truth values we want them to have.
To create such a logic one just has to create a formal system that transforms defined values accordingly.
You can have transduality that is beyond logic, yes, but you can have also have transduality that isn't.
And Omnipotence is paradoxical and hence no character actually has it, but just questionable omnipotence. Because paradoxical things are unprovable.
And if you consider that an omnipotent, by definition, is able to loose to a normal human against its will (else it would be unable to do something) you also see that you can't really predict the outcome of a fight with an omnipotent.
The reason we treat omnipotent the way we do is only, because we also throw the concept of the highest tier into it aka because we all secretly think of them as the characters that would always win in a battle (which is in so far justified as omnipotence always are portrayed superior to all others in all fictions for which we take omnipotence seriously).
Otherwise, due to the fact that we can not understand such beings, we couldn't debate what would happen if they are involved either.
@Antvasima: Well, my opinion on the subject matter is that having an ability for something specific beyond logic (other than just the ability to be beyond logic generally) is useless, as it lies in the nature of such things that discussing what it does in a battle or in general what it means for a character to have it can not reach any proper result.
That is just my opinion though.
@cal: What do you mean? 682 died from drunk driving ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I mean if it is from a place where time, space and states of matter operate very differently than they do normally, then it is possible that it doesn't die from absolutely anything else, but drunk driving does the trick, right?
You just say that it isn't.
Transduality is defined as working on more than the binary oppositions, which is exactly what multi-valued logic does.
Instead of true (1) and false (0), it for example has all numbers between 0 and 1 as truth values.
So it is very specifically working on a basis that is beyond duality.
For example a statement like "x is in M" would in multi-valued logic not necessarily by true or false. It could instead be 0.65 as truth value. Hence "there exists a x that is in M" could also have such a truth value.
Finding a logic in which a statement is both true and false is even easier. Take Naive set theory. Russels antinomy shows a statement, in which an element is and isn't part of a set at once.
The reason I say you underestimate human capabilities is that you say humans can only think in binary logic, while in truth we can think in logic of however many truth values we would like to have and in which statements can take any amount of truth values we want them to have.
To create such a logic one just has to create a formal system that transforms defined values accordingly.
You can have transduality that is beyond logic, yes, but you can have also have transduality that isn't.
And Omnipotence is paradoxical and hence no character actually has it, but just questionable omnipotence. Because paradoxical things are unprovable.
And if you consider that an omnipotent, by definition, is able to loose to a normal human against its will (else it would be unable to do something) you also see that you can't really predict the outcome of a fight with an omnipotent.
The reason we treat omnipotent the way we do is only, because we also throw the concept of the highest tier into it aka because we all secretly think of them as the characters that would always win in a battle (which is in so far justified as omnipotence always are portrayed superior to all others in all fictions for which we take omnipotence seriously).
Otherwise, due to the fact that we can not understand such beings, we couldn't debate what would happen if they are involved either.
@Antvasima: Well, my opinion on the subject matter is that having an ability for something specific beyond logic (other than just the ability to be beyond logic generally) is useless, as it lies in the nature of such things that discussing what it does in a battle or in general what it means for a character to have it can not reach any proper result.
That is just my opinion though.
@cal: What do you mean? 682 died from drunk driving ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I mean if it is from a place where time, space and states of matter operate very differently than they do normally, then it is possible that it doesn't die from absolutely anything else, but drunk driving does the trick, right?
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- #93
I said at a higher level. Everything either is or isn't. Everything has an opposite. Even "this does not have an opposite" has an opposite. Even transduality has an opposite and this binary is broken down into endless values. True transduality cannot be expressed. My proof of this is not scientific, so forgive me if that's what you're looking for.
Nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second". Binary code is just an example, true transduality has always been explained by any school of thought to be "unexplainable". It lies "beyond the truth of thr universe".
This is just fiction. We can take statements that the Outer Gods are completely unaffected by change literally due to the tier they are part of. 1-As are supposed to be beyond logic and we accept them, sp why not transduality? From a theological point of view, from a metaphysical point of view, it is an abstract and unknowable concept. Hadou and Gudou Gods are beyond duality and thus the source of everything in the universe. They are specifically beyond any dualities because taikyoku is the oneness before duality.
Saying that Transduality is beyond logic is why we can't use it, then 1-A and most certainly Tier 0, should not exist.
Nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second". Binary code is just an example, true transduality has always been explained by any school of thought to be "unexplainable". It lies "beyond the truth of thr universe".
This is just fiction. We can take statements that the Outer Gods are completely unaffected by change literally due to the tier they are part of. 1-As are supposed to be beyond logic and we accept them, sp why not transduality? From a theological point of view, from a metaphysical point of view, it is an abstract and unknowable concept. Hadou and Gudou Gods are beyond duality and thus the source of everything in the universe. They are specifically beyond any dualities because taikyoku is the oneness before duality.
Saying that Transduality is beyond logic is why we can't use it, then 1-A and most certainly Tier 0, should not exist.
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@ant: Well, the problem with "To qualify for True Godly Regenerationn, a character must be able to regenerate from being erased from both existence and nonexistence" would be the question which state they have afterwards, given that "erased" in this case should probably imply that they don't have one of the two. (so after being erased that way they are neither existent or non-existent)
Given that one would again end up with something that that is either beyond logic or needs multi-valued logic to work.
So IMO both versions share the same problem.
Given that one would again end up with something that that is either beyond logic or needs multi-valued logic to work.
So IMO both versions share the same problem.
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I'm guessing we've already established that this is exclusive for 1-As, correct? If that's the case, let's say that I have a character who does the things qualified for this, like getting himself wiped in every sense of the word, and still comes back, and this guy tops out at 3-A?
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- #99
Transduality, like 1-A, is beyond scientific definition (the realm of metaphysics).
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I kinda agree with the ones who find this addition redundant. For most of the beings that this would apply, they already have this by default simply by being that high in the tiering system.
It's quite literally one of the requirements to be 1-A and similar tiers.To be beyond these things and have similar powers to these ones and that only someone on the same level of existence might have a chance at beating/doing something to them.
It's quite literally one of the requirements to be 1-A and similar tiers.To be beyond these things and have similar powers to these ones and that only someone on the same level of existence might have a chance at beating/doing something to them.
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In fact, this is the exact reason why the ability Omnilock was removed from this wiki: It would apply only to 1-As and above like 90% of the time and it would be redundant to have it/list it because they already have said power by default.
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@Sera: You know every school of thought that ever existed? Because you just claimed that and I seriously doubt it. (Neither am I usually one to be impressed by appeal to authority, when it comes to philosphical issues)
"Everything either is or isn't. Everything has an opposite." In binary logic? yes. In logic in general? The former no. (see multi-valued logic, again) The latter? Probably also no, though I don't know an example spontanously.
Differentiate between what is true in standard systems (binary logic) and in every general system (in every general system you will hardly find anything that is generally the case).
That you differentiate between "true transduality" and just "transduality" is strange.
If you define "true transduality" as something that can not be expressed and hence as something different from just transduality, then it can not be expressed. That is tautological, though.
In other words if you just say that everything that doesn't have the properties you want is something different, of course whatever you define will only have the properties you want.
1-A's are in general also not beyond logic. 1-A's are only superior to dimensional space, which is far away from anything beyond logic.
And we can deal with beings beyond logic, by taking the properties and effects we can logically understand and work with those, ignoring the non-logical parts.
That is how every debate about High 1-A beings or other beings that violate logic can work. If we wouldn't restrict us to that we couldn't talk about them.
So saying transduality (in the description you want) is beyond logic and hence we can not use it to reason isn't inconsistent with the tiering system at all. All tiers work out fine by just ignoring the parts that can not be understood and reason based on what you know. (not that we say this parts don't exist, we just don't argue anything based on this parts)
"We can take statements that the Outer Gods are completely unaffected by change literally due to the tier they are part of."
We can actually only take them literally due to the fact that it is uncontradicted and up to the level it was shown. Being 1-A doesn't mean that the NLF doesn't exist anymore.
Metaphysics, as part of philosophy, can be debated to be science, if done by certain methods and usually isn't beyond logic.
"Everything either is or isn't. Everything has an opposite." In binary logic? yes. In logic in general? The former no. (see multi-valued logic, again) The latter? Probably also no, though I don't know an example spontanously.
Differentiate between what is true in standard systems (binary logic) and in every general system (in every general system you will hardly find anything that is generally the case).
That you differentiate between "true transduality" and just "transduality" is strange.
If you define "true transduality" as something that can not be expressed and hence as something different from just transduality, then it can not be expressed. That is tautological, though.
In other words if you just say that everything that doesn't have the properties you want is something different, of course whatever you define will only have the properties you want.
1-A's are in general also not beyond logic. 1-A's are only superior to dimensional space, which is far away from anything beyond logic.
And we can deal with beings beyond logic, by taking the properties and effects we can logically understand and work with those, ignoring the non-logical parts.
That is how every debate about High 1-A beings or other beings that violate logic can work. If we wouldn't restrict us to that we couldn't talk about them.
So saying transduality (in the description you want) is beyond logic and hence we can not use it to reason isn't inconsistent with the tiering system at all. All tiers work out fine by just ignoring the parts that can not be understood and reason based on what you know. (not that we say this parts don't exist, we just don't argue anything based on this parts)
"We can take statements that the Outer Gods are completely unaffected by change literally due to the tier they are part of."
We can actually only take them literally due to the fact that it is uncontradicted and up to the level it was shown. Being 1-A doesn't mean that the NLF doesn't exist anymore.
Metaphysics, as part of philosophy, can be debated to be science, if done by certain methods and usually isn't beyond logic.
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The thing is, Type 9 Immortality is basically High-Level type 8 explained differently. Reliant on something else - in this case, their true selves or concepts for a conceptual being, for example - in order to be immortal. It's the same concept of power, but just written in a different way.Antvasima said:
Type 10 Immortality is usually just the same as being beyond such things like, as I said, 1-As are by default. Since that information is already on the tiering system and understood as part of the 1-A package, I don't see the need to list it again. It's the same deal people had with Omnilock and the reason why its page was deleted.
True Godly regen sounds somewhat like Flowery language. Technically speaking if a character was truly reduced to Non-Existence, they wouldn't exist in any state to begin with. Regenerating from existence and non-existence would just mean you were regenerating from a state of not existing at all in any manner. It's being reduced to nothing - no aspect of said existence remains. If someone actually "exists" in non-existence, then I don't see that as said being truly erased/reduced to nothing. To a degree, it's much like regenerating from another plane of existence, which even Low-Godly already encompasses.
Mid-Godly and High-Godly would already be regenerating from utter and complete erasure, no trace of the being left in any sort of manner but they come back anyways.
And if we think about the 1-As that might have something that defies logic like "True Godly", it's back to square one: They simply have it for being that high already. Hence, sounds all unnecessary to me. But just leaving my opinion, I'll go along with whatever you decide.
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@A6colute ...No. Where did you get that from?
You do realize type 9 is basically the exact same thing as type 8, right? Like, seriously. 1 >> You don't die because you're ageless/have longevity. 2. You don't die because you withstand attacks that should normally kill. 3. You don't die because you regen, etc...
8. You don't die because thanks to some concept, person or object that is NOT necessarily a part of your actual being doing the fighting brings you back or prevents you from dying.
Look at the descriptions from type 8 and 9.
8: Reliant Immortality: The power to be immortal so long as a certain object, person, concept etc. exists.
9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed. For example, a conceptual being doesn't die even if its body, soul, etc will be erased from existence.
...Hence, they are immortal because they are reliant on their true selves or in the case of a conceptual being, reliant on their concepts to survive. It's as obvious as it gets. They even use similar reasoning.
You do realize type 9 is basically the exact same thing as type 8, right? Like, seriously. 1 >> You don't die because you're ageless/have longevity. 2. You don't die because you withstand attacks that should normally kill. 3. You don't die because you regen, etc...
8. You don't die because thanks to some concept, person or object that is NOT necessarily a part of your actual being doing the fighting brings you back or prevents you from dying.
Look at the descriptions from type 8 and 9.
8: Reliant Immortality: The power to be immortal so long as a certain object, person, concept etc. exists.
9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed. For example, a conceptual being doesn't die even if its body, soul, etc will be erased from existence.
...Hence, they are immortal because they are reliant on their true selves or in the case of a conceptual being, reliant on their concepts to survive. It's as obvious as it gets. They even use similar reasoning.
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To give an example, Chara who is a Conceptual Being and reliant on the concept he/she embodies, is listed as one of the examples in type 8 Immortality already.
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All schools of thought? I think I will have to disagree with DT's logic as simply put. Logic come from reasoning and we humans still have limited capabilities of understanding as our brain can not handle too much info. To have infinite knowledge and infinite logic for a mortal being is impossible and contradictions is always in logic. You make it sound that logic is supreme over everything else in that kind of thinking.
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I see. I can understand this one if you think it's reasonable/better to make that separation.Antvasima said:
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I'm sorry but can everyone please stop overthinking this? This is based off Demonbane, the Madadaverse, I/O, Umineko, and other series with composite hierarchies. The debate has gotten to a point where I am getting annoyed because I know what I've read in these novels, which unfortunately are works that most of you have not read yourselves. Lambda was strictly stated to be nondual, Hadou/Gudou Gods are are the source of duality. I/O informational beings are the source of all concepts including duality so they must exist beyond it and thus have a corrosponding Regenerationn. Can we at least agree with this? It's quite simple.
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It would simply reinforce the same thing that it's just like type 8. Unless you guys want to make that just to make that separation because you think it's better that way, it's fundamentally the same thing.Sera Loveheart said:
And let me just make this clear: I'm not questioning any of these powers existing so you don't need to bring the "they exist in famous works/high level character/powerful verses/I read this, you didn't" card. I'm not saying they don't exist. Nobody needs to read tons of visual novels to actually understand how this stuff works. Just some attention to the matter at hand and reasonable thinking.
What I'm saying is that they do sound redundant with some of the things we already have listed both in tier and in said pages.
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Though I already agreed with Antvasima above that for type 9, if you think it's better to separate it, sure thing. Go ahead.
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I didn't bring that in for any reason other than explaining it okay? I just said that I know what I've read and how this applies. I worked very hard on summarizing Type 9 immortality and True Godly Regenerationn but if it's such a big deal then we don't have include it. That's perfectly fine with me.
I am tired and need to go to work soon, I thought this was over and done with but apparently people still wanna argue. I do not have the time at the moment. DontTalk's reasoning is fine with me, we don't have to include true godly regen or type 9.
Perhaps you should ask DarkLK? He could straighten this out.
I am tired and need to go to work soon, I thought this was over and done with but apparently people still wanna argue. I do not have the time at the moment. DontTalk's reasoning is fine with me, we don't have to include true godly regen or type 9.
Perhaps you should ask DarkLK? He could straighten this out.
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I'll simply do what I said I'd do from the beginning and go with what the majority decides in regards to this. Was just giving my own personal view on the matter at hand but I'll naturally understand those who think different.
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I'm sorry Fate. I've just been debating and arguing for both of these all day and it's tiring me. Again I need to go to work, so I hope this can be resolved either before or when I return.
I apologize for getting upset.
I apologize for getting upset.
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There's no need to apologize (I'm well aware that it can be taxing to debate in a lot of things after a while, so I'm the one who wants to apologize in case I was the one who upset you in some manner. Not my intention. ^_^)
Other than that, I think both sides sound reasonable enough in their own way, that's why I'll be ok with whatever gets decided. That's all from me here.
Other than that, I think both sides sound reasonable enough in their own way, that's why I'll be ok with whatever gets decided. That's all from me here.
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