Transformers General Discussion

[Primestar3]

Fair point, but still, the fact that starscream was inside the ship meaning he was somewhat protected even if the ship torn apart.

In that same comic, starscream and other characters like him could be harmed by weapons far weaker than 7-B, and it's likely the explosion is much larger than 7-B as Cybertronian cities dwarves human ones.

Also, the fact, shockwave, who is much stronger than starscream, was in stasis after crashing in his spaceship. Mean it's likely starscream does not scale to 7-B

As I said, S7 was likely using sabot rounds. This was established in the first movie. The heat weakness thing is a little condradictory though, since TFs can survive reentry, and AFAIK, Maverick missiles which Scorponok tanked burns hotter. But the idea with the sabot rounds in the first movie was to give an excuse to have USA be able to combat Decepticons. So, there is context to it.

In Reign of Starscream, Starscream's stray missiles (randomly spamming in all directions, so likely doesn't hit the same area twice) had the missiles crack the middle of Hoover Dam. Even carbot sized Autobots like Cliffjumper survived those same missiles, that alone should be above things like human RPGs and machine guns.

It is true Shockwave was knocked out, however, he was still completely in one piece after the impact, while Optimus himself can punch through SW in DOTM. So, characters would still scale to that.

@Drite77
SS was relatively pretty close to the center, so I'm guessing it would still be impressive considering the sheer size of the explosion, the fireball of which engulfed a Cybertronian city? IDK.

 

[Drite77]

I mean,like I saod, not even 2 meters and the durability was really downgraded

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I mean,like I saod, not even 2 meters and the durability was really downgraded

I mean, fiction tends to ignore laws like this, iirc

His ship was the one who took most of the damage, as evident of it getting destroyed to the point nothing is left of it. Shockwave was still knocked out by it, and he still had protection from the impact.

Still, if they could be hurt by sabot rounds, then they should absolutely not survive something that is on par with a nuke.

Starscream destroying parts of the Hoover dam looks to be only 9-A in itself, it's nowhere near 7-B unless he destroys the entire wall himself

 

[Drite77]

Fiction ignores, but the wiki doesn't

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Ah, so the policies about that aren't the same such as area of effect?

 

[Drite77]

It applies, it was more about the fact that if Scream is not literally at the center, the results would be mich lower if he did tanked the explosion

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Starscream was inside the ship.

I'm not sure if that's the same as the toraxxis thing where the explosion was right in their faces.

 

[Primestar3]

I mean, fiction tends to ignore laws like this, iirc

His ship was the one who took most of the damage, as evident of it getting destroyed to the point nothing is left of it. Shockwave was still knocked out by it, and he still had protection from the impact.

Still, if they could be hurt by sabot rounds, then they should absolutely not survive something that is on par with a nuke.

Starscream destroying parts of the Hoover dam looks to be only 9-A in itself, it's nowhere near 7-B unless he destroys the entire wall himself

Or Shockwave himself impacted. There's no debris of the ship anywhere. Did Tunguska literally vaporize a giant metal ship? IDK if it has the power to do that. Not to mention Shockwave was literally at the epicenter of the crater.

In theory, if they can be hurt by sabot rounds, they should die to reentry, and presumably maverick missiles (if that really burns hotter than sabots). As I said, sabots are kind of an excuse in the movie, the explanation is condradictory, but humans harming TFs still has context to it is my point. They tried to explain it.

Not saying that Hoover Dam is city level or anything, I'm just saying that's above stuff like RPGs and machine guns. The middle of Hoover Dam is thicker than 45 feet (the top of the dam itself is 45 feet thick), and the water was spilling, so clearly it was cracked all the aay through. Not sure how good it is, but pretty sure it's more impressive than an RPGs and machine guns at least.

 

[Primestar3]

Starscream was inside the ship.

I'm not sure if that's the same as the toraxxis thing where the explosion was right in their faces.

In the next issue of Toraxxis, Why does a random Decepticon mook say the ones who survived only survived due to luck after Scorponok says those who died in the explosion are weak? Does the mook mean the rest of the mooks besides high tiers? Nothing of sorts is specified tho.

 

[Primestar3]

It applies, it was more about the fact that if Scream is not literally at the center, the results would be mich lower if he did tanked the explosion

How good is cracking more than 45 feet thick reinforced concrete?

Also, what would be the formula for that?

 

[Drite77]

Starscream was inside the ship.

I'm not sure if that's the same as the toraxxis thing where the explosion was right in their faces.

Neat, how far away was he from the explosion?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Or Shockwave himself impacted. There's no debris of the ship anywhere. Did Tunguska literally vaporize a giant metal ship? IDK if it has the power to do that. Not to mention Shockwave was literally at the epicenter of the crater.

Shockwave was travelling at an incredible speed. The speed likely tore his ship apart and him crashing just destroyed what was left. His crashing ship caused Tunguska.

They're in a proto form state when travelling. That state is made for re-entry, it's not the same if you're made for interstellar stuff

 

[Drite77]

How good is cracking more than 45 feet thick reinforced concrete?

Also, what would be the formula for that?

I am on mobile so can't say

For ISL I remmebr vaguely, it has its own page on the wiki

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

In the next issue of Toraxxis, Why does a random Decepticon mook say the ones who survived only survived due to luck after Scorponok says those who died in the explosion are weak? Does the mook mean the rest of the mooks besides high tiers? Nothing of sorts is specified tho.

The luck would only apply to low tiers. Characters like scorponok and optimus are heavyweight point one percenters. Meaning they're a lot stronger than the average, there are guides to support this.

Also many regular civilians were killed by explosion while the high tiers tanked it with no issue, and they have many other feats to prove they're high 6-A.

Scorponok even says the strong survive, and it likely mean in the literal sense

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Protect low 7-C Bayformers at all cost.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Low 7-C is likely gonna get the F soon *Sobs

 

[Drite77]

Say hello to tiwr 9 bayformers uwu

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Tier 4 bayverse because optimus destroyed the star harvester

 

[Drite77]

Tier 2 bayformwrs cause they are superior to their creators

 

[LordTracer]

Tier 1 Bayverse because Optimus killed the Fallen, who scales to the Thirteen

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Tier 0 Unicron because lovecraft is canon to transformers, Unicron ate everything, therefore Unicron > yog sothoth and azathoth uwu

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Jokes aside tho. I'd say a "Possibly 7-B" could work for these 2 feats, but it's hard to say they're solidly at 7-B due to the scenes being pretty vague and several things contradicting 7-B but not really, and I still feel really iffy on this. It'd be better if you could find more feats on that level to back up 7-B

 

[ByAsura]

In the next issue of Toraxxis, Why does a random Decepticon mook say the ones who survived only survived due to luck after Scorponok says those who died in the explosion are weak? Does the mook mean the rest of the mooks besides high tiers? Nothing of sorts is specified tho.

He doesn't imply that Scorponok specifically survived by chance, just that it's up to chance who lived and died from the explosion. Notice the guy saying this is missing an arm from the explosion, and thousands were stated to have died in the surrounding area.

Scorponok himself was holding the core when it detonated and came out unharmed, so there's literally no way it could be luck. He's a point-one percenter—purportedly surpassing even Shockwave in terms of firepower—and far stronger than a basic NAIL.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So 8-A Bayverse again? I guess I can work with that. Gonna be weird after arguing for Low 7-C Create-A-Bot though.

 

[Primestar3]

Jokes aside tho. I'd say a "Possibly 7-B" could work for these 2 feats, but it's hard to say they're solidly at 7-B due to the scenes being pretty vague and several things contradicting 7-B but not really, and I still feel really iffy on this. It'd be better if you could find more feats on that level to back up 7-B

Well, SS feat isn't vague at all.

With the Shockwave, the impliction is that he was at the epicenter.

In regards to condradictory anti-feats, IMO, not much condradiction to these at all, even in the movies besides sabot rounds harming TFs (which was a plot excuse for USA anyway).

I mean, for example, look at the BB movie, where characters get heavily damaged by falling off cliffs, military jeeps ramming into them, or harpoons. Even Shatter died to a boat ramming into her.

In contrast, in the Bay films, the only time I can recall a TF getting damaged or killed by such things is when Hatchet died in a car crash, but even then, he was thrown by Mirage, so could be argued that it's a feat for Mirage. The comics themselves don't have many anti-feats either. The only time they appear fragile is when hit by human weapons, which has context as I said.

In regards to other feats on this level,

Maybe the moon impact, but I'm not sure how impressive that is.

The novel Veiled Threat appears to be canon to IDW. In that, it was said that if all of Ironhide's weapons in Diego Garcia went off, the island and probably most of India would be destroyed. Now, this would be a collective feat, but I'm guessing a singular one would be pretty powerful on its own based on this. Their weapons are synthetic enegon based, and it is said that normal Energon is much more unstable and dangerous. Not sure if this means that normal energon would make a bigger boom. I haven't finished any of the novels tho, so there might be more.

Shockwave was travelling at an incredible speed. The speed likely tore his ship apart and him crashing just destroyed what was left. His crashing ship caused Tunguska.

They're in a proto form state when travelling. That state is made for re-entry, it's not the same if you're made for interstellar stuff

Something like that about te ship breaking by speed was never said tho. Protoforms come to the Earth by re-entry tho. Considering that there is no debris, and that SW is in the middle of the impact, I think it was likely SW crashing.

But if he did crash with the ship, and if the ship was vaporized or destroyed to the point there's nothing left of it, I don't think one can say the ship did a good job of absorbing the impact.

Also, that impossible speed was likely relativistic to FTL. In Defiance, it is said that Cybertron is light years away. Shockwave set out and arrived on Earth from Cybertron between 1902 to 1908 (the journey was in-between these years, it didn't start earlier). IDK if that means anything.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Again, what prevents starscream from being to fully city level is the fact that shockwave was knocked out by an explosion that was 7-B, and had protection against it. Other characters in the comics could be hurt by regular weapons that aren't stated to be sabot rounds.

The BBB characters are baseline 8-C and are much inferior to the bay characters, so they can't really be used as an example.

The moon impact scales to no one.

That is a straight up outlier. The gap between island level and city level is huge. Starscream and shockwave are really only around or above baseline. Starscream could even harm and tank hits from Ironhide in transformers foundation.

Shockwave looked exactly the same he did before and after he got to earth, so there's no way he went there on his own and especially the page even says he boards a ship. It's like scaling a driver to his car in a car crash even tho his car got destroyed.

Like I said earlier, I am willing to let the shockwave thing slide as we did allow a similar thing with BBB movie, only difference is that shockwave got knocked out and the BBB characters were fine.

I'm between either At most 7-B or Possibly 7-B.

 

[Primestar3]

Doesn't matter if it isn't stated to be sabot rounds, that was an entire plot point in the first movie. Even what appeared to be grenades
in the first movie were stated to be sabot rounds. So, not regular weapons unless stated otherwise.

It makes no sense if there is an entire plot revolving around that, yet they are using normal RPGs in the comics (remember that the movie is canon to comics).

Furthermore, in the Veiled Threat which the writer John Barber appears to count as IDW canon, it was also stated that the soldiers were only using sabot rounds, and that they even developed a new form of sabot round with the help of Ironhide after the first movie.

The moon impact somewhat scales to Starscream, who damaged Ark which survived the impact more or less intact. But IDK how strong that impact is. Nobody calced it yet.

Well, in regards to ROS, it IS a Cybertronian city, so could be bigger than a normal city. So, that in an of itself doesn't condradict the island/continent statement. Also, that was all his weapons going off, but based on that, a singular one would presumably be pretty powerful.

I agree Shockwave getting knocked out is condradictory.

 

[Primestar3]

Also, the reason I mentioned BB movie was to show that anti-feats like that don't exist in the Bayverse, besides by human weapons (which is likely a sabot round or something similiar based on the first movie).

 

[Primestar3]

Not saying Shockwave went there on his own, he boarded a ship. I'm only saying that he was the only thing in the ground zero.

Also, what do you mean Shockwave looked the exact same? If you mean he wasn't in his Protoform form, the later issues show Shockwave can still re-enter Earth's atmosphere in his normal form.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Well, in regards to ROS, it IS a Cybertronian city, so could be bigger than a normal city. So, that in an of itself doesn't condradict the island/continent statement.

We don't know how big the city is still. Even if we assume the the explosion was around city level +, the gap between baseline island level and city level+ is still big.

What is shockwave getting knocked out contradictory to?

The ship does look pretty shredded in the dotm comic adaptation.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Not saying Shockwave went there on his own, he boarded a ship. I'm only saying that he was the only thing in the ground zero.

Also, what do you mean Shockwave looked the exact same? If you mean he wasn't in his Protoform form, the later issues show Shockwave can still re-enter Earth's atmosphere in his normal form.

It's likely shockwave traveling at "incredible speeds" Was what cause him to get knocked out.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
Not saying to assume how big a city is, just that it wouldn't condradict the island/continent statement on its own. However, I said before that those were all of Ironhide weapons in Diego Garcia going off, not just one (also, it is likely closer to small continent level). I posted that to say that if all his weapons in the Diego Garcia base going off at the same time can do that, I'm guessing that a single one would be pretty powerful too.

I meant that the Shockwave feat would conradict island/continent level statement.

I was thinking that some of the speed of the ship transferred to Shockwave after he ejected, though to be fair, not sure on this one.

Still, if SW was inside the ship, and that the ship was destroyed to the point that there was nothing left at all, I would guess the ship didn't do much in absorbing the impact, especially when Shockwave was at ground zero, it looked as if the explosion originated from him.

 

[Primestar3]

The ship still looks to be in one piece after the impact in the adaptatio, SS would somewhat scale.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

It's likely the impact just completely destroyed the ship. To sum up my point in layman's terms. Re entry would be like u walking to a place, in the case of shockwave, he took his car and rammed at the place he wanted to go to at full speed, just ended making a wreck, and the destruction destroyed his car.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Also could u find the scan for Ironhide weapons being able to destroy Diego Garcia. Destroying an island is nowhere near continent level, let alone country level. It's also a chain reaction, from the look of it, that Ironhide weaponry combined with the rest of the military's bases couls destroy the island, so that doesn't out Ironhide at island level. So no tier 6

There's still no confirmed size for trypticon.And looking at the comic, it doesn't seem to be that large. And shockwave being stronger than starscream contradicts the city explosion being stronger than Tunguska.

My suggestion would be "At most 7-B" or "Possibly 7-B as stated earlier. I'm leaning towards the former.

Also fyi the switching gears novel trilogy are part of idw apparently. I think I own the first book somewhere, I'll need to look for it.

I think I could give reverb a profile uwu

 

[Primestar3]

It's likely the impact just completely destroyed the ship. To sum up my point in layman's terms. Re entry would be like u walking to a place, in the case of shockwave, he took his car and rammed at the place he wanted to go to at full speed, just ended making a wreck, and the destruction destroyed his car.

The blast completely destroyed the ship tho, as well as the surrounding area. The damage to the area is how we know IRL that the impact was in the megatons range. As I said, SW was in the literal epicenter. My point is that the ship doesn't seem to do much in absorbing the impact if it's completely gone, if it was even there.

I've already said many times that it was all of Ironhide's weapons going off at once that would do that damage. Also, he says it would probably destroy India, so if not all of India, the implication is that a large portion of it would be destroyed (if it is nowhere near that, no point to the India statement). The reason I brought that up is for supplementary evidence that a singular weapon would presumably be pretty strong on its own based on that, not to say that Ironhide is continental.

Also, that statement is only regarding Ironhide's weapons, nothing to do with the human base.

Trypticon extends past the horizon in the background, and it is a metropol. So, I'm guessing it's pretty large.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Shockwave still got knocked by it, even if you put him at the center of it, that would only make him at most 7-B

Do you have the scan for that?

It still doesn't look that large, even when compared to something like mission city, iirc, is filmed mostly at San Francisco. It may just be the angle of it tho.

 

[Primestar3]

Shockwave still got knocked by it, even if you put him at the center of it, that would only make him at most 7-B

Do you have the scan for that?

It still doesn't look that large, even when compared to something like mission city, iirc, is filmed mostly at San Francisco. It may just be the angle of it tho.

I agree with Shockwave, didn't claim otherwise. Still, Optimus would scale to that, or above that. He is stronger than SW by feats, and can punch through him in DOTM movie, and two shotted him in the adaptation. In Foundation, SW couldn't speak properly after a single blast from Optimus, while Optimus shrugged off a blast from SW without much trouble in the adaptation. Not saying they are necessarily many tiers apart, but still.

Ok, I will.

Even NY doesn't look that big from an angle:

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Hm. Still the point stands, the size of trypticon is unknown. I would give it a at least 7-B rating, but because of shockwave, it's at most 7-B.

 

[Primestar3]

Hm. Still the point stands, the size of trypticon is unknown. I would give it a at least 7-B rating, but because of shockwave, it's at most 7-B.

One last thing is that there are apparently explosions on Cybertron visible from space in ROS:
Image
Image
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These are either pillars of light, some energy discharged from Cybertron or explosions.

This is how the artist in the same issue drew explosions:
Image

Both have a spikey look to them, so IDK, maybe they are explosions. Those that touch the ship seem to have a similiar shape fo the explosions on Cybertron (besides the ones exploding without touching the ship or anything else in space).

Another explosion ay the end of the same miniseries drawn by the same artist:
Image