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Transformers General Discussion

I feel like we need to revise the scaling from the prime characters. As soundwave being superior to Optimus and megs comes from the novels. And we know in the cartoon that soundwave is weaker than both
 
I was planning a downgrade (as in scaling-wise) for Soundwave previously in one of the General Discussions. I'll try to dig it up, but I think you archived it.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
As soundwave being superior to Optimus and megs comes from the novels. And we know in the cartoon that soundwave is weaker than both
Click to expand...
Um, no, him being superior isn’t from the novels. He straight-up lost to Megatron in their battle in the novels (although Megs did state it was to first injury, so that doesn’t really mean much). It’s from Laserbeak being able to harm Upgraded Prime iirc.
 
LordTracer said:
Um, no, him being superior isn’t from the novels. He straight-up lost to Megatron in their battle in the novels (although Megs did state it was to first injury, so that doesn’t really mean much). It’s from Laserbeak being able to harm Upgraded Prime iirc.
Click to expand...
I think it's more or less laser beak being better at air combat than prime? Because wheeljack could contend with soundwave

Megatron > ultra Magnus > shockwave > wheeljack = soundwave
 
I was just saying it's overstated. Anyway, here's my previous arguments.

"Him defeating upgraded Optimus is also overstated.

Here's what I think his AP should be

Attack Potency: Large Building level (Depicted as being one of the strongest of the main Decepticon forces on Earth, surpassed only by Megatron himself. Has grossly outclassed the likes of Wheeljack and Airachnid. It is heavily implied that Starscream fears Soundwave, most notably in Masters and Students)

The part about being "superior to Skyquake and Dreadwing by a considerable margin" is something I heavily disagree with. Skyquake was portrayed as superior to Optimus Prime, with Prime and Bumblebee resorting to trickery. Dreadwing was also outright equal to Optimus."
 
But didn’t Dreadwing get one-shot by Megs? I mean, it was from behind, but still.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
It's only detected because the ship itself is gigantic
Click to expand...
When it hit the moon, one of the NASA scientists said "impact detected, we have impact confirmed".



It seems like the impact itself was detected. If Ark itself was big enough to be detected tho, shouldn't the impact be powerful anyway?

If we go by the novel, the impact is definitely massive, but the novels can condradict the movies.

ByAsura said:
The feat is a little too vague given we don't know the exact ship or weapon (even playing it in slow-motion, you never see the projectile, just the explosion) that struck the Ark. Plus, Optimus was only on the fringes of the blast, and the ship itself appears to be completely undamaged by this first hit in later shots.
Click to expand...
The Ark was being chased only by Decepticon Assault Carriers in that scene tho, nothing else.

Optimus actually was hit in the back by a missile (it's hard to tell but one of the ships in the back shoots a missile that lands in Optimus's back), and also bullets (those are hard to tell too, but the bullets hit his back a few seconds before the missile thing).

The reason I think that the Ark was damaged is because of the fact that the flames seem to linger on the area that the missile hit and don't dissipate. Seems to suggest that the flames are coming from Ark, I think.
 
Again, we don't know the durability of the ark and it still broke nonetheless.

In fact, there's to believe that the durability of the ark could be lower than Low 7-C as Optimus could tank the attacks from the jets while the ark could not
 
@Primestar Some of which look nothing like the ones later in DoTM. Notably, one is pentagonal while another has 2 wings.

Edit: Actually, I think they're reconfigurable, so maybe that's why. But you'd still have to prove it's the same weapon.

No, one hit the car, one hit the ground next to the car, which was even further than Optimus. The explosion got him in the back.

The fact that there's no damage after seems to suggest it's some sort of incendiary weapon, or the damage was minor enough that it couldn't be seen.
 
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Emirp sumitpo said:
Again, we don't know the durability of the ark and it still broke nonetheless.

In fact, there's to believe that the durability of the ark could be lower than Low 7-C as Optimus could tank the attacks from the jets while the ark could not
Click to expand...
Yeah, but my point is it survived largely intact, not that it no sold the impact. If the impact was very strong and if the ship was fragile, it should have been in little pieces, not mostly one large piece.

There's no proof that any of the Protoforms get damaged by reentry tho. If anything, it's the opposite. So, it wouldn't be an anti-feat for Ark.

ByAsura said:
@Primestar Some of which look nothing like the ones later in DoTM. Notably, one is pentagonal while another has 2 wings.

No, one hit the car, one hit the ground next to the car. The explosion got him in the back.

The fact that there's no damage after seems to suggest it's some sort of incendiary weapon.
Click to expand...
In 4:28 of the video where Optimus gets shot (Sentinel VS Optimus video), you can see the furthest ship in the back launch a missile that leaves a cloud trail. The missile hits Optimus's back (that's where the explosion on his back comes from). The other ships also launch two other missiles. There are three in total.

I wouldn't bank on there being no damage present in subsequent shots as proof that the Ark took no damage. I mean in ROTF, Bumblebee magically regenerated his lost pieces by Ravage in this very same scene:



He loses one of his backlights in his back. Literally in the next shot, it is back in its place. Animators don't seem to always bother with small details.

In the larger shots in the Cybertron scene, we can see the ships firing missiles and bullets, nothing else. Incendiary is unlikely as there is no evindence of such a weapon in the movie, and I doubt the filmmakers would use a weapon that would only be used once in the beggining and never be used it again.

It's safe to say the Ark was damaged by either a missile or a bullet since that is clearly what the ships are firing in that scene, that is also what they use in the final battle too.

One other weapon the ships use is the blue blasts they fire to vaporize humans. Those are blue blasta while Optimus was hit by orange blasts and misilles. In the Cybertron scene, the blue blasts were not used.

 
Emirp sumitpo said:
I never said that. If they did get damaged, then they wouldn't have their current rating. There's still no way to calc the ark's impact.
Click to expand...
That is why I'm wondering if the fact that NASA detected Ark mean anything.



Ark was initially picked up by the Very Large Array.

However, NASA detects and confirms the impact. The dialogue seems to suggest that they actually detected the impact itself.

I am not sure exactly how NASA detect things like meteor impacts, that is why I am asking.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Doesn't mean anything
Click to expand...
You could be right, as I said IDK the exact methods they use. Though I've looked it up and it seems that they detect it from the flashes the impacts make that are visible from space, though it didn't look like Ark had a big flash in the movie.
 
In 4:28 of the video where Optimus gets shot (Sentinel VS Optimus video), you can see the furthest ship in the back launch a missile that leaves a cloud trail. The missile hits Optimus's back (that's where the explosion on his back comes from). The other ships also launch two other missiles. There are three in total.

Playing it frame-by-frame in the highest quality, there's only two and the other smoke trail is something else. Optimus is only caught in the blast, and never directly hit by missiles.

I wouldn't bank on there being no damage present in subsequent shots as proof that the Ark took no damage. I mean in ROTF, Bumblebee magically regenerated his lost pieces by Ravage in this very same scene: He loses one of his backlights in his back. Literally in the next shot, it is back in its place. Animators don't seem to always bother with small details.

I suppose that's true, but we can verify that he was damaged. The same can't be said for the Ark.

In the larger shots in the Cybertron scene, we can see the ships firing missiles and bullets, nothing else. Incendiary is unlikely as there is no evindence of such a weapon in the movie, and I doubt the filmmakers would use a weapon that would only be used once in the beggining and never be used it again. It's safe to say the Ark was damaged by either a missile or a bullet since that is clearly what the ships are firing in that scene, that is also what they use in the final battle too. One other weapon the ships use is the blue blasts they fire to vaporize humans. Those are blue blasta while Optimus was hit by orange blasts and misilles. In the Cybertron scene, the blue blasts were not used.

We specifically see them firing some sort of orange projectiles that have a flash to them (and that Optimus wasn't ever hit by IIRC), like a Phalanx round. We see this kind of weapon again on Earth, so it's likely they weren't the same as the missiles and blue blasts, and have different effects.
 
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Random question, but if you guys were to write the next Transformers series and had complete creative control, how would that series go?

What would the story be, what characters would you give the spotlight, how would you scale the Cybertronians, would you go with evergreen designs or assorted ones, etc.
 
I'd give Punch/Counterpunch the fame he deserves, I'm surprised not even IDW has used him.

Also I have really old notebook full of terrible Transformers ideas...
 
Also did you know simon furman turned god into energon enema in earth wars?

Such brilliance, I'm telling you
 
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@ByAsura
It's not that smoke trail. In your photos, Optimus is already hit in the back. One or two seconds before that, a missile is clearly fired from the ship in the far back (farthest ship).

It's somewhat visible in your first picture but it is starting to dissipate there. The smoke trail in the second picture is different.

I think that the fact that Ark is caught in fire probably means that it is damaged. There is no evidence of incendiary weapons anywhere in the movie. The mini ship weapons seen are missiles, blue pulse weapons and the rounds (orange things fired). Those missiles didn't seem to be incendiary in the Optimus scene.

You can see here that Optimus survive rounds from the small ships:


They directly hit his armor (pay attention to his back). They make the same sounds as the ones used in the Cybertron scene. As I said, the Cybertron scene had missiles (that left smoke trail) and rounds/bullets.

However, I'm not sure how impressive Ark impact is after reading this:

science.nasa.gov

Bright Explosion on the Moon - NASA Science

May 17, 2013: For the past 8 years, NASA astronomers have been monitoring the Moon for signs of explosions caused by meteoroids hitting the lunar surface. “Lunar meteor showers” have turned out to be more common than anyone expected, with hundreds of detectable impacts occurring every year...
science.nasa.gov science.nasa.gov

This article says that a meteor impact visible from space is only 5 tons of tnt.

So, even if NASA detected it, it may not be that impressive.
 
Ok, you mean that one, I got confused because they don't appear to be very powerful. For one, they're way smaller than any of the other projectiles, probably the Cybertronian equivalent of machine gun bullets. Second, the damage and explosion they deal is nowhere near what the larger shells that hit the Ark and those missiles could do.
 
As for how I’d make a TF series (which I’m actually trying to write up), I’d start it before the Great War. The intial spotlight would be on the young Megatron, Elita-One and Orion Pax, and their early adventures, culminating in Elita becoming the warden of Carcer Prison and Orion joining Megatron’s political crusade against the High Council and their caste system (basically like TF Exodus). The ultimate antagonist would be Sixshot, a corrupt cop that Elita takes down before becoming warden.

Timeskip ten years, the spotlight changes to Barricade, Bumblebee and Arcee. Cade and Bee’s goals are to become Elite Guard members (Cade in the police corps, Bee as one of the high council guards), meanwhile Arcee is a petty thief that Cade runs into every now and then. The ultimate antagonist of this arc would be Death’s Head (yes, really), who Bee and Cade have to defeat. This arc would also introduce the Seekers (Starscream, Skywarp, Thundercracker and Slipstream).

The next arc would be the moments leading up to the war. Like in Exodus, Orion and Megatron would make a case to the High Council, Orion becomes Optimus Prime and has a falling out with Megatron because of it. Megatron would then lose a battle in the gladiator pits for the first time, which causes him to have a mental break. So he kills the high council, causes a prison break at Carcer and gathers the Ascenticon terrorist group to become the Decepticons, and that would be the end of the first volume (and I have five volumes planned lol).

As for scaling, I would have it progress similar to a shonen. With each arc, the scale would up a bit. In the first volume, it’d be about Tier 6 - Tier 5, with the second and third volumes going up to Tier 4. The later volumes would go even higher (cough Tier 2), but that would be like endgame.

And as for designs, I would use various ones. A lot of Decepticons (Brawl, Blackout, Bonecrusher and Frenzy notably) would use Bayformers designs because of my nostalgia for those movies, but I’d also include designs from Prime (Arcee, Bumblebee, Soundwave) and G1/IDW (Optimus, Elita, Megatron, Starscream, Shockwave).

So yeah, that’s my Transformers lol.
 
ByAsura said:
Ok, you mean that one, I got confused because they don't appear to be very powerful. For one, they're way smaller than any of the other projectiles, probably the Cybertronian equivalent of machine gun bullets. Second, the damage and explosion they deal is nowhere near what the larger shells that hit the Ark and those missiles could do.
Click to expand...
I imagine the Cybertron ones are supposed to be the same thing as they do have the same exact sound effect as the ones from the Optimus scene and the size thing is inconsistency (perhaps to make the shells look clearer in the Cybertron scene or something), though you could be right and the Cybertron ones might be bigger.

Regarding Optimus, he was hit by a missile as well as the bullets (hit by a missile right after he was hit by bullets).

But regardless, would you say that comic version of Bayverse Starscream scales to Ark?

Starscream damages Ark

Ark impact was visible from space:
Image 1 (Panel 4)
Image 2 (Panel 4). NASA took a picture of it. I'm not sure how impresaive blasts cisible from space on the Moon though.

This blast is apparently 5 tons of TNT (though the Adk explosiona looks kinda bigger):

science.nasa.gov

Bright Explosion on the Moon - NASA Science

May 17, 2013: For the past 8 years, NASA astronomers have been monitoring the Moon for signs of explosions caused by meteoroids hitting the lunar surface. “Lunar meteor showers” have turned out to be more common than anyone expected, with hundreds of detectable impacts occurring every year...
science.nasa.gov science.nasa.gov
 
I had this AU where the war never happens and Optimus and Megatron are leaders of a golden new age for Cybertron. They have this Vegeta and Goku sort of rivalry. The true antagonist who's behind everything is Universe Ramjet, who seeks to destroy the Universe he's stuck in and break the shroud to release his master. It feels very IDW esque in story telling and design

AP-wise, regulars are at 6-A while High tiers are at 5-A. The mid tiers the become 4-A to 3-C and eventually Low 2-C to Low 1-C.

Speaking of Ramjet, I made a sandbox profile for him. I've been meaning to add him for a while, but his entire rating relies solely on being likely stronger than Megatronus, who's sandbox profile is still a work in progress.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
I had this AU where the war never happens and Optimus and Megatron are leaders of a golden new age for Cybertron. They have this Vegeta and Goku sort of rivalry.
Click to expand...
One of the sequel series I had planned (yes, I’ve planned sequels because I want this to cover almost every part of the TF Mythos lol) has an arc where the Autobots, after (temporarily) defeating the Decepticons, travel through the multiverse. And one of the universes they go to is a universe where Megatron is given the Matrix and becomes Galvatron Prime, so the war never happens and Cybertron is completely peaceful until Unicron’s heralds show up. Although Unicron isn’t actually namedropped and the group is just called the Heralds of the Chaos-Bringer.
 
I imagine the Cybertron ones are supposed to be the same thing as they do have the same exact sound effect as the ones from the Optimus scene and the size thing is inconsistency (perhaps to make the shells look clearer in the Cybertron scene or something), though you could be right and the Cybertron ones might be bigger.

They're not clearer, just way bigger and fire individually. These are faster, more powerful and larger.

Regarding Optimus, he was hit by a missile as well as the bullets (hit by a missile right after he was hit by bullets).

Which didn't hit him at point-blank range.

But regardless, would you say that comic version of Bayverse Starscream scales to Ark?

Starscream damages Ark

Sure.
 
We still don't exactly have the Ark's dura tho? Anyway, I'm planning to give extra keys to the bayverse characters instead of new profiles. The IDW bayverse characters have some pretty solid At most 7-B feats
 
Although when the Autobots and Decepticons first land on Earth during the original series, they’d be drastically nerfed from the Tier 5/4 levels they were at in the previous arcs. This is because they wouldn’t be used to Earth technology, so their bodies would need to adapt to return to full strength. So they’d be more like Tier 8 - Tier 7 initially, ultimately getting up to Tier 6 before adapting to their original strengths.

The power scale of the sequels would be way higher, with basically everyone being Low 2-C due to the final arc of the original series, and ultimately reaching 2-A once Regenesis Shockwave becomes a thing. They’d reach Tier 1 way later, with the Thirteen, Unicron and Primus being 1-A.
 
ByAsura said:
I imagine the Cybertron ones are supposed to be the same thing as they do have the same exact sound effect as the ones from the Optimus scene and the size thing is inconsistency (perhaps to make the shells look clearer in the Cybertron scene or something), though you could be right and the Cybertron ones might be bigger.

They're not clearer, just way bigger and fire individually. These are faster, more powerful and larger.

Regarding Optimus, he was hit by a missile as well as the bullets (hit by a missile right after he was hit by bullets).

Which didn't hit him at point-blank range.

But regardless, would you say that comic version of Bayverse Starscream scales to Ark?

Starscream damages Ark

Sure.
Click to expand...
Sure, could be a different round.

The missile hit his back. In fact I've just noticed two missiles hit Optimus's back. This picture is right before something (the missiles) explodes on his back. They are hard to make out, but if you watch the scene in motion, you'l notice they are missiles, and they hit Optimus directly.

7681793-screenshot_20201124-051617.jpg

There are two cloud trails connected to the position of the ship in the far back. Those are the missiles I am talking about.
 
Those two missiles don't even go near him. They veer away off screen in the opposite direction and only two explosions are shown, both of which are from the same area as the other missiles. Did you see it in the frame-by-frame link I sent?
 
ByAsura said:
Those two missiles don't even go near him. They veer away off screen in the opposite direction and only two explosions are shown, both of which are from the same area as the other missiles. Did you see it in the frame-by-frame link I sent?
Click to expand...
They don't. The missile path directly leads to Optimus' back and then there is an explosion in his back that causes some some pieces of him to fly off. The missiles don't fly off-screen.

I am not talking about the two other missiles that hits the cars and explode in front of Optimus, if there os a confusion.
 
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