Transduality Should be Nonduality

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that it is a useful term, as it explicitly includes that a characters transcends and is superior to duality, whereas nonduality has a lot of preexisting baggage that we would have to deal with, and I am not sure if it would end up meaning the same things that serve our purposes well here.

@DontTalkDT @Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7

What do you think about this?

 

[PrinceofPein]

This has been addressed by me before on other thread made just like this too.
I will look for it later and paste it here.

Transduality is just a battle boarding wording.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, I think that it is a useful term, as it explicitly includes that a characters transcends and is superior to duality, whereas nonduality has a lot of preexisting baggage that we would have to deal with, and I am not sure if it would end up meaning the same things that serve our purposes well here.

@DontTalkDT @Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7

What do you think about this?

Could you elaborate on what you mean by preexisting baggage? If there were issues with the former standards, then they can and should be ironed out here.

This has been addressed by me before on other thread made just like this too.
I will look for it later and paste it here.

Transduality is just a battle boarding wording.

Just so we're all on the same page, do you agree or disagree with the OP?

 

[Antvasima]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by preexisting baggage? If there were issues with the former standards, then they can and should be ironed out here.

I just meant that I don't know if we would have to greatly modify what we mean with the term transduality, which is relevant regarding what we use it for, in order to adapt to a more general usage of nonduality in spiritual or philosophical contexts.

I usually believe in "if it isn't broken and works fine, don't spend massive amounts of work trying to fix it".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I just meant that I don't know if we would have to greatly modify what we mean with the term transduality, which is relevant regarding what we use it for, in order to adapt to a more general usage of nonduality in spiritual or philosophical contexts.

I usually believe in "if it isn't broken and works fine, don't spend massive amounts of work trying to fix it".

The actual changes would be fairly small in practice; Every current user of the power keeps it, and we would have to do minimal editing of the page itself, as well as maybe create a redirect link for transduality. I disagree with the fact that it isn't broken, because none of the characters used as examples for transduality even qualify for the power under our current standards, which seems like a huge issue.

 

[Antvasima]

What kind of editing would we have to do regarding the power definitions more specifically?

I personally still like our abbreviation form of "transcendent beyond duality" much more than "not part of duality", as the former is more intuitively to the point for what was intended.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well I could not find the thread, so I will try and keep this short and see where it leads

I dislike the way we treat transduality now. Evidently, I'm not the only one, since nobody, not even the staff, seem to abide by the rules we have set in place for the power. This is because of the requirement that any prospective user should have "qualitative superiority" over the dualities they are unbound from, and merely being absent of duality doesn't qualify. This is ******* insane for several reasons, so here we go.

We Made Transduality Up

Look up the word 'transduality' and what will you find? Various VS debating pages and that's it. It is not a real term that exists, and the fact that only battleboarders know what the hell it means is a red flag. Of course, duality (and by extension, nonduality) is a very real thing that has been documented across history; Countless religions, most notably eastern religions such as Taoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism, make use of nondualism in their belief systems. The Yin-Yang, arguably the most important symbol related to duality, is in fact a representation of everything acting as a part of a nondual whole. The Taiji, which we currently use as the defining symbol on the transduality page, is a similar symbol, one representing the oneness before duality and giving birth to the Yin-Yang. The problem? Despite literal centuries of dualism being discussed in theology and philosophy, none of this shit comes even close to qualitative superiority. This means the real world basis for the power itself uses nonduality and not transduality, something that we even directly acknowledge on the page itself by choosing to use Taiji as the symbol.

Transduality is meant to be above a particular duality and Taiji is the most prominent example of duality in theory.
Also, Taiji is not based on non-duality but rather duality itself

Transduality Rejects the Most Archetypal Users of the Power

Imagine if someone changed the time stop qualifications so characters like Dio Brando would no longer qualify. That'd be absurd, right? Because Dio's time stop is, of course, a thing he is very well known for, to the point where he is THE character many people associate with stopping time. So why do we allow the same for transduality? We can look at every example given on the transduality page, and see just how silly this is. To be clear, I'm not denying or attempting to debunk any character on this list, merely showing how overly strict transduality's standards are.

People granting the ability to pages that do not qualify are not grounds that the ability is wrong.

-Kamen Rider Gaim: Said to have 'transcended' life and death, which contextually refers to escaping the cycle of life/death or destruction/creation. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

This is immo type 5 only and not TD, and should never have been TD to begin with since it spoke nothing on the nature of how it transcended it

-Rimuru Tempest: Said to have become a 'transcendent god' over Veldanava, who is a being predating the duality of light and darkness, or yin and yang. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

it does qualify for qualitative superiority

-Lucifer Morningstar: Exists outside of God's plans, which include the duality of life and death. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

it does qualify with more contexts, since he transcends this God's plan

-Sun Wukong via Buddhism Physiology: Transcendent Monks are free from attachment to all universes, containing countless phenomena governed by the yin and yang. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

I do not know th context to this, so I will leave it

-Dragon Talisman characters: Exists outside the Empyrean Dao, which created duality, and therefore exist outside duality itself. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

Yes it does not qualify

-Khorne: The Aethyric Void is a place where all concepts, normally separate in higher realms, break down and combine into a single, universal abstract. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

Does not qualify for TD itself

-Oblivion: Unbound by the laws of everything that is and isn't, and is stated to be similar to the taoist concept of wuji. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

he does qualify though

-Swirl of the Root: Exists beyond and encompasses all duality, including the taiji, a nondual state of oneness. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

it qualifies for qualitative superiority

From this, we can see that every single character listed on the transduality page - characters who are supposed to have the most clear cut, well known, and well explained examples of transduality on the wiki - does not even qualify for transduality. Now, some of these characters are said to 'transcend' duality, but we explicitly do not allow qualitative superiority to be given on the basis of transcendence without context, so not even that qualifies. Some of you may recall the changes made to type 5 acausality, where the standards became so overly strict that no character on the wiki qualified. What we see now is the exact same, and just like type 5 acausality, it's a sign that something needs to change.

I can see a lot of incredulity in this posts, you do not know about these characters and claim they do not possess Qualitative superiority over the reality the duality exists in, they do case in point, at least the ones I know of and mentioned above

Requiring Qualitative Superiority Makes No Sense

Qualitative superiority is, as we consider it, a state wherein everything beneath you is seen as uncountably infinitely small. This can be achieved merely through infinite differences in spatial dimensions, or by seeing lower planes as something akin to fiction. As of now, we also consider qualitative superiority over duality as a requirement for transduality, disallowing the mere absence of duality, a standard which, as shown above, is ridiculous. However, there are two other reasons why qualitative superiority should not be the benchmark for nonduality.

You forgot the important one, the major one for TD which is 'Ontological' difference, a state where those dualities are unreal to you or non-existent or you cannot even distinguished between them and thinks they are the same/unreal, that is the most important Qualitative difference when it comes to TD

Logically, non-duality can and should do everything that transduality does. If someone transcends life and death, they'd of course be in a state of deathless immortality, neither alive nor dead, and therefore immune to the manipulation of life and death. But the exact same goes for non-duality. If you exist absent of life and death, then you'd still have deathless immortality, you'd still be neither alive nor dead, and you'd still be immune to life or death manipulation. The same goes for any other duality there is, so why do we insist on requiring transcendence?

I think you made a big mistake in your life and death classification there. If you neither alive or dead, you are an undead and do not qualify for Immortality type 5, Transcending it though, like I explained above that is TD and also Immortality type 5
There is a difference between not alive and not dead, and transcending it altogether.

Also TD is for people who are immune to the said dualities, with non-duality, there is no shared powers between the users, you will have to explain what each powers do specifically since been non-dual to things for different verse grants different applications which is not the case with TD. and let me use a statement from DT

Nonduality just means that you are in a state neither A or not A. So, say you are nondual regarding the distinction of "getting hit" and "not getting hit". What would then happen if someone throws a stone at you? The answer is, that what would happen is impossible to predict just from the given information. It can't be that you get hit or that you not get hit, but the action can still have some consequence in the altered system of logic you obey. You could, for instance, go from your current nondual state into another nondual state, which is different in nature. It could for instance be a nondual state that is in practice similar to being dead. That's not a result that is logically excluded.

In fact, it could also simply be "get a wound". You get neither hit nor not hit, but the wound still appears in the logic system in question. There is no logical reason why that can't be the response of just any nondual logic system.

A nondual logic system adds more possibilities as for what could happen, but it doesn't really add any restrictions as for what can't happen.

So no, a nondual character actually has no resistance to dual systems per default, because in the nondual system they are in dual actions can still have consequences.

But worse than all that, we don't even consider what it actually means to be qualitatively superior in this context. It's fairly easy to apply QS to a physical structure like a universe, but concepts are a different ball game entirely; Can you really be 'infinitely larger than' life and death? What does it mean to be uncountably infinitely greater than existence and non-existence? Or, to give a more specific example, does it make any sense at all for a character to transcend the duality of reality and fiction by viewing it as fiction? As a consequence of this QS requirement, anybody with low 1-C tiering or 5D HDE would just, have transduality by default because they are technically transcending the dualities present in lower dimensions. Zero thought was put into how and why 'qualitative superiority' would even work in this context; Ostensibly, it was only added in order to make transduality harder to get and therefore more "special", or the inclusion of QS could ironically make transduality something that every tier 1 character gets.

This is an argument that is wrong, Simply transcending a world does not grant TD, read the page, dualities are not things like water and fire, and physical things, they are abstract and logical things "A duality refers to a logical duality for the purpose of this ability."
That is to say "alive" and "not alive", "water" and "not water" e.t.c. Logical dualities do not just present themselves unless it has been established in a verse to be so. So transcending a universe does not mean you transcend all logical dualities in a universe.

Also stop your whole uncountable infinite larger than life and death, addressed what transcendence in this sense means up above

TL;DR: Transduality's standards are nonsensical, overly strict, and quite literally everybody on this site ignores them anyways. Transduality should be changed to non-duality.

An ability that is applied wrongly to some page is not a reason to change the ability, simply create a thread and fix those pages. In fact most of those examples should be revised, it is not usually logical dualities

Also, if what you are asking is to add an extra type to the TD page so we can add people who are just non-dual and not TD, then that I can agree to and see some harm but nothing we cannot handle, but changing the whole thing is something I disagree with as TD has more application in Battle boarding than Non-duality.

My main support goes behind deleting the page, I have never seen TD used as an argument in vs battles, so it is not really a relevant page.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not want us to delete the page. It is a valid philosophical and spiritual concept.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What kind of editing would we have to do regarding the power definitions more specifically?

I personally still like our abbreviation form of "transcendent beyond duality" much more than "not part of duality", as the former is more intuitively to the point for what was intended.

-Rename the power to nonduality (this is preferred, in order to stick to the real world basis of the ability, but not a hard requirement).
-Change "Transduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, AND qualitatively beyond, various dual systems" to "Transduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, OR qualitatively beyond, various dual systems".
-Remove "Transduality is not simply nonduality, but additionally requires something like qualitative superiority or immunity to attacks bound to the duality in question." from the page entirely.

That is it. Nothing else about the page would qualify. I also disagree about whether or not the name is intuitive, as nonduality is a real concept that is quite widespread IRL, while transduality isn't. If you brought up nonduality in a conversation with non-VS people, some would understand what you're talking about, while transduality is almost exclusively used in VS contexts.

I will respond to Pein's comment in a moment.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I would prefer to keep the option of transcending duality as a section of the page at the very least.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is immo type 5 only and not TD, and should never have been TD to begin with since it spoke nothing on the nature of how it transcended it

And yet the nature of his TD functions identically to if he did transcend those cycles; There is 0 difference in how the power functions, so why would the power not be appropriate here?

it does qualify for qualitative superiority

As I mentioned prior, mentions of "transcending" something do not count as qualitative superiority. We state this quite clearly in the tiering FAQ:

Spoiler

A: "Transcendence" is a vague term which can be used in several contexts, many of which do not at all align with how it is normally used in our forums, as it simply means "to go beyond the ordinary", first and foremost. For example, statements of "transcending space and time" can refer to things like time travel, dimensional travel, or even agelessness in some cases. Hence, it is very preferable to ascertain the meaning of statements involving this term from background context (If there is any), being especially careful around flowery language or purple prose.

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.

I will not bother responding to every individual example, since the same logic applies. "Transcendence" is not, in fact, qualitative superiority. I dislike that standard, but that's the way it is, so nobody on that list actually "transcends" shit because they are not shown as having an infinite size difference or R > F gap over duality (which is, of course, quite absurd in concept anyways).

I think you made a big mistake in your life and death classification there. If you neither alive or dead, you are an undead and do not qualify for Immortality type 5, Transcending it though, like I explained above that is TD and also Immortality type 5
There is a difference between not alive and not dead, and transcending it altogether.

I could explain how completely ridiculous this claim is, but I'll let the immortality page do it for me.

Merely being "unbound from" life and death - which naturally includes the lack of such states - is enough for type 5.

You forgot the important one, the major one for TD which is 'Ontological' difference, a state where those dualities are unreal to you or non-existent or you cannot even distinguished between them and thinks they are the same/unreal, that is the most important Qualitative difference when it comes to TD

If you lack something, it is by definition non-existent to you. A character who lacks a soul considers their soul non-existent, because it doesn't exist.

Also TD is for people who are immune to the said dualities, with non-duality, there is no shared powers between the users, you will have to explain what each powers do specifically since been non-dual to things for different verse grants different applications which is not the case with TD. and let me use a statement from DT

Argue for yourself and not from DT's old comments, thank you very much. That said, if you lack something, you are immune to it, so the lack of duality is by extension the immunity to anything bound to those dualities. As for what the applications are for each case of TD, the fact that they'd be variable under nonduality shouldn't work as a point against it, as HDE, acausality, and other "state of being" powers can work radically different depending on the verse. We don't reject any of those powers, so why should we reject nonduality?

This is an argument that is wrong, Simply transcending a world does not grant TD, read the page, dualities are not things like water and fire, and physical things, they are abstract and logical things "A duality refers to a logical duality for the purpose of this ability."
That is to say "alive" and "not alive", "water" and "not water" e.t.c. Logical dualities do not just present themselves unless it has been established in a verse to be so. So transcending a universe does not mean you transcend all logical dualities in a universe.

We do not assume all concepts to be beyond dimensionality; The concepts of life and death can exist within a 4th dimensional scale, so to transcend everything that exists on that scale would by extension transcend those concepts. This is, of course, excluding verses where time and space or the duality between physical worlds are things that exist. In those cases, any example of HDE would also grant transduality.

Also stop your whole uncountable infinite larger than life and death, addressed what transcendence in this sense means up above

An ability that is applied wrongly to some page is not a reason to change the ability, simply create a thread and fix those pages. In fact most of those examples should be revised, it is not usually logical dualities

Also, if what you are asking is to add an extra type to the TD page so we can add people who are just non-dual and not TD, then that I can agree to and see some harm but nothing we cannot handle, but changing the whole thing is something I disagree with as TD has more application in Battle boarding than Non-duality.

My main support goes behind deleting the page, I have never seen TD used as an argument in vs battles, so it is not really a relevant page.

Pein I'm gonna be honest, nothing in your post even addressed why Nonduality doesn't work. It just defended transduality, which is fine, but there's no reason why we can't allow nonduality to exist alongside it, just as we do for BDE types. To lack something is to be immune to the manipulation of it; Unless you can prove that duality is magically exempt from this rule, there is nothing to discuss here.

"Qualifying for Immunity is difficult, as no simple show of resistance is enough, and statements could easily be hyperbole or only apply in-verse. Immunity should only be given when the user in question entirely lacks what would normally be affected. An inorganic being, for example, has no biological components to manipulate, and an entity without a soul won't be harmed by Soul Manipulation."

Hmm. I would prefer to keep the option of transcending duality as a section of the page at the very least.

Yes, I'm fine with that as well. My main goal is to expand the qualifications for transduality, as only allowing qualitative superiority seems far too restrictive.

 

[Deagonx]

Are you ******* kidding me right now

Please refrain from stuff like this. I know you feel strongly about it, but this doesn't help either side.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Apologies. I've edited the post accordingly.

 

[PrinceofPein]

And yet the nature of his TD functions identically to if he did transcend those cycles; There is 0 difference in how the power functions, so why would the power not be appropriate here?

Not bound by life and death was the meaning in Karmen Rider, which is different from Transcending it altogether

As I mentioned prior, mentions of "transcending" something do not count as qualitative superiority. We state this quite clearly in the tiering FAQ:

Spoiler

A: "Transcendence" is a vague term which can be used in several contexts, many of which do not at all align with how it is normally used in our forums, as it simply means "to go beyond the ordinary", first and foremost. For example, statements of "transcending space and time" can refer to things like time travel, dimensional travel, or even agelessness in some cases. Hence, it is very preferable to ascertain the meaning of statements involving this term from background context (If there is any), being especially careful around flowery language or purple prose.

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.

I will not bother responding to every individual example, since the same logic applies. "Transcendence" is not, in fact, qualitative superiority. I dislike that standard, but that's the way it is, so nobody on that list actually "transcends" shit because they are not shown as having an infinite size difference or R > F gap over duality (which is, of course, quite absurd in concept anyways).

And like I said, you know nothing about this characters and all of them that I said qualifies actually qualifies, and please the statement no one holds infinite size difference over logical statements is a vapid one, what is the size of logical dualities, if you will please establish that. There are lots of ways to have Qualitative difference like I explain pertaining to TD is usually Ontology, so I will not go over it again. You want to default the Higher D immunity to lower D powers is flawed as TD requires that even within the same level of reality, you still transcend and are unaffected by it

I could explain how completely ridiculous this claim is, but I'll let the immortality page do it for me.

Merely being "unbound from" life and death - which naturally includes the lack of such states - is enough for type 5.

No no no, again with immo type 5, you can still be killed with EE, with TD, it will not even happen to begin with, since again death does not apply to you in any sense of the reality you Transcend the duality.
And an undead is neither alive nor dead and is also unbound by both states so again same thing here

If you lack something, it is by definition non-existent to you. A character who lacks a soul considers their soul non-existent, because it doesn't exist.

Lacking something and non-existent to you is a different thing, I lack a billion dollars, that does not mean a billion dollars does not exist or will not affect me when it is applied to me actively.
So I hope I cleared this up again

Argue for yourself and not from DT's old comments, thank you very much.

I do not care if it explains my argument, I will send it here, so here again is an explanation for your misunderstandings
Nonduality just means that you are in a state neither A or not A. So, say you are nondual regarding the distinction of "getting hit" and "not getting hit". What would then happen if someone throws a stone at you? The answer is, that what would happen is impossible to predict just from the given information. It can't be that you get hit or that you not get hit, but the action can still have some consequence in the altered system of logic you obey. You could, for instance, go from your current nondual state into another nondual state, which is different in nature. It could for instance be a nondual state that is in practice similar to being dead. That's not a result that is logically excluded.

In fact, it could also simply be "get a wound". You get neither hit nor not hit, but the wound still appears in the logic system in question. There is no logical reason why that can't be the response of just any nondual logic system.

A nondual logic system adds more possibilities as for what could happen, but it doesn't really add any restrictions as for what can't happen.

So no, a nondual character actually has no resistance to dual systems per default, because in the nondual system they are in dual actions can still have consequences.

That said, if you lack something, you are immune to it, so the lack of duality is by extension the immunity to anything bound to those dualities.

addressed it above

As for what the applications are for each case of TD, the fact that they'd be variable under nonduality shouldn't work as a point against it, as HDE, acausality, and other "state of being" powers can work radically different depending on the verse. We don't reject any of those powers, so why should we reject nonduality?

Again being non-dual does not mean you will not be affected if those things are applied to you, and we are speaking in terms of logical dualities and not just any duality

We do not assume all concepts to be beyond dimensionality; The concepts of life and death can exist within a 4th dimensional scale, so to transcend everything that exists on that scale would by extension transcend those concepts. This is, of course, excluding verses where time and space or the duality between physical worlds are things that exist. In those cases, any example of HDE would also grant transduality.

We accepts concepts to be within the confines of the work, that aside concepts are dimensionless to begin with.
In fact point out a verse that has different concepts of life and death for higher dimensions, I will wait.

Pein I'm gonna be honest, nothing in your post even addressed why Nonduality doesn't work. It just defended transduality, which is fine, but there's no reason why we can't allow nonduality to exist alongside it, just as we do for BDE types. To lack something is to be immune to the manipulation of it; Unless you can prove that duality is magically exempt from this rule, there is nothing to discuss here.

I addressed why Non-duality does not work, it has no application.

immunity stuffs

Again lacking something does not mean it will not affect you when it is applied to you actively,
as Agna said, yes I am using his statement since I agree with them

A nondual statement does not have to be "unable to be interfered with by something that effects true statements". At least, not any more than a true statement is "unable to be interfered with by something that effects false statements".

Or like, if something's power was to set the truth value of statements to "false" despite the logic within them, that would be able to work on a statement that is paradoxical; despite its nondual nature, it is not immune to abilities that function on dualities.

Or in yet other words, you'd obviously agree that a being's "death value" being set to "false" (i.e. meaning that they're alive) doesn't make them immune to that "death value" being set to true, so why would a being whose "death value" is a gap or a glut also be immune to that?

Let me break it down for you, non-duality is not so much immunity but a gap, what if that gap is filled, can you still say they are immune? No

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, apologies if this derails, but I'd like it if we could stop the talk of axing the power altogether. The claim that TD plays no role in VS debates is hilariously wrong, as I have argued on behalf of multiple characters who have stomped or stalemated other characters specifically because of their transduality.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The claim that TD plays no role in VS debates is hilariously wrong

I have never seen TD used as an argument in vs battles

I myself meaning based on my experience, I do not mean it does not happen, but it is uncommon in vs battles

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not bound by life and death was the meaning in Karmen Rider, which is different from Transcending it altogether

And how does that function differently? In both cases, Gaim cannot die, cannot be affected by life or death hax, and exists outside of the cycle of life and death. If we were to place Gaim in a VS match, would transcendence vs absence actually play a role in deciding how his powers work, or would it just be semantics?

No no no, again with immo type 5, you can still be killed with EE, with TD, it will not even happen to begin with, since again death does not apply to you in any sense of the reality you Transcend the duality.
And an undead is neither alive nor dead and is also unbound by both states so again same thing here

This disproves literally nothing I said. EE isn't "death" in the conventional sense, it is just... ceasing to be, completely and utterly. There is a reason why EE and death manip are different powers. Also, undead characters are uh, typically considered dead. Whether or not they are neither alive nor dead is up to the verse, but most verses just consider them dead beings who can still act like living ones.

Lacking something and non-existent to you is a different thing, I lack a billion dollars, that does not mean a billion dollars does not exist or will not affect me when it is applied to me actively.
So I hope I cleared this up again

Does not exist for you, personally. That is how all immunities work, they are defined by what the target lacks, not whether or not that component exists elsewhere in reality.

I do not care if it explains my argument, I will send it here, so here again is an explanation for your misunderstandings
Nonduality just means that you are in a state neither A or not A. So, say you are nondual regarding the distinction of "getting hit" and "not getting hit". What would then happen if someone throws a stone at you? The answer is, that what would happen is impossible to predict just from the given information. It can't be that you get hit or that you not get hit, but the action can still have some consequence in the altered system of logic you obey. You could, for instance, go from your current nondual state into another nondual state, which is different in nature. It could for instance be a nondual state that is in practice similar to being dead. That's not a result that is logically excluded.

And how does any of this information change if we use transcendence? If you "transcend" getting hit and not getting hit, there would still be extant states that could occur, including the ones you listed. So this is an inherent flaw of any interpretation of the power, not just nonduality.

That aside, that doesn't even change what I'm saying, since immunity to what is embodied by A and B still applies. A character who lacks the duality of life and death cannot be affected by those things, even though there might be tertiary states related to the two that could still apply.

In fact, it could also simply be "get a wound". You get neither hit nor not hit, but the wound still appears in the logic system in question. There is no logical reason why that can't be the response of just any nondual logic system.

A nondual logic system adds more possibilities as for what could happen, but it doesn't really add any restrictions as for what can't happen.

So no, a nondual character actually has no resistance to dual systems per default, because in the nondual system they are in dual actions can still have consequences.

As I said above, you have given no reason for why this would not apply to transduality as well.

Also, it seems like you need to use a highly specific example of the power in order to prove your point. Would the same logic hold true with common dualities like life and death or existence and nonexistence? I doubt it, personally.

I addressed why Non-duality does not work, it has no application.

Again lacking something does not mean it will not affect you when it is applied to you actively,
as Agna said, yes I am using his statement since I agree with them

Let me break it down for you, non-duality is not so much immunity but a gap, what if that gap is filled, can you still say they are immune? No

So if you lack the duality of life and death, you'd be still affected by life and death hax because... why, exactly? In Agnaa's response, he claims that a nondual being could have their death state set to true or false despite being a "gap"; The issue is, nonduality is defined as the absence of two opposed states, so there wouldn't be a death state to set as true or false to begin with. You just couldn't do anything to it, because it isn't even a thing that exists.

Also, all immunities are a gap. A character without a soul can still be given a soul; Does that mean they do not have immunity to soul manipulation? No, of course not, so why should we treat nonduality differently?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So what effect does non-duality have that is shared between all users of the power?
If the answer is none, then why would we have it as one power, instead of having it as a mechanism to separate powers?

Edit: And I definitely agree that nonduality does not imply immunity to anything on its own. That's a proposal that has been rejected several times before. What nonduality does when you attack the character depends entirely on the extended system of logic that is used and depending on which inference rules you put in that system any possible outcome is imaginable.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Does not exist for you, personally. That is how all immunities work, they are defined by what the target lacks, not whether or not that component exists elsewhere in reality.

I am not immune to the application of it to me though, that is the point of my whole posts.

And how does any of this information change if we use transcendence? If you "transcend" getting hit and not getting hit, there would still be extant states that could occur, including the ones you listed. So this is an inherent flaw of any interpretation of the power, not just nonduality.

if you transcend it, within that scope of reality the chances of it happening is zero

That aside, that doesn't even change what I'm saying, since immunity to what is embodied by A and B still applies. A character who lacks the duality of life and death cannot be affected by those things, even though there might be tertiary states related to the two that could still apply.

I already disproved this and explained why it is not so

As I said above, you have given no reason for why this would not apply to transduality as well.

It will not that is why it is called transcendence.

Also, it seems like you need to use a highly specific example of the power in order to prove your point. Would the same logic hold true with common dualities like life and death or existence and nonexistence? I doubt it, personally.

I have one which I am most familiar with but her page is not ready, the name is Mithra, let me send a very perfect scan for it

Black and White, Blue and Red, Light and Darkness, Obverse and Reverse. Every single conceiveable, Dualistic, conflicting, rivalring phenomena, concepts, that exist within this world, all without exception existed here. Flowing, in continous change, a Great Mandala in the shape of a designed pattern, changing in a kaleidoscope like form while continuing to revolve. Infinite colours overflowed, and nevertheless, there was not a single independent thing here. They all have an enemy (furigana: couple), that always certain, under the auspices of the absolute Law. Quite like a microcosm of their universe. An embodiment of the world of Dualism, woven in textile of trascendent scope.

will you say any of the things she views as mandala will affect her within the scope of this reality?
Now can you say the same for a character that is just non-dual?

So if you lack the duality of life and death, you'd be still affected by life and death hax because... why, exactly? In Agnaa's response, he claims that a nondual being could have their death state set to true or false despite being a "gap"; The issue is, nonduality is defined as the absence of two opposed states, so there wouldn't be a death state to set as true or false to begin with. You just couldn't do anything to it, because it isn't even a thing that exists.

Non-duality is a state where both life and death is set to false, what is your argument that they will not be affected if either state is actively applied which is what is meant by the state set to true.
Let me use a clearer example non-existence is set to false, if I use EE, does that mean he resist it since that sets the value to true?

Also, all immunities are a gap. A character without a soul can still be given a soul; Does that mean they do not have immunity to soul manipulation? No, of course not, so why should we treat nonduality differently?

They are not immune to the soul itself, which is what you are claiming here, this is a different analogy. The correct one is:
A character has no soul, are they immune to the granting of soul to them by an external entity? which will be No in this case

Honestly I do not want to drag this on, so I will post one more giant post after this and be done.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So what effect does non-duality have that is shared between all users of the power?
If the answer is none, then why would we have it as one power, instead of having it as a mechanism to separate powers?

For type 1, it would depend on the duality itself. For life and death, a nondual character would effectively have type 5 immortality and the appropriate immunity to life and death hax. For existence and nonexistence, a character would effectively have type 2 NEP (in line with how type 2 NEP can occasionally grant low level transduality by itself). But just from those 2 examples, it's easy to see how the core mechanic of nonduality would remain consistent despite slight differences between verses.

For types 2 and 3, it'd be immunity to any effect falling under a true or false state (or for type 3, true and false or neither true nor false). Basically, take the logic applied to type 1 above, and extend it to everything treated as a duality in-verse.

Beyond that, though, what exactly makes transduality different? Because despite numerous disagreements, I've seen nobody explain how transduality would have shared effects, if nonduality supposedly doesn't. If what you describe is such an issue, then why have transduality in the first place? If it isn't an issue, then why reject nonduality?

Edit: And I definitely agree that nonduality does not imply immunity to anything on its own. That's a proposal that has been rejected several times before. What nonduality does when you attack the character depends entirely on the extended system of logic that is used and depending on which inference rules you put in that system any possible outcome is imaginable.

Let me ask you a rather simple question: If you were to use existence erasure on a being absent if the duality of existence and nonexistence, would they get erased? Logic would dictate that no, that possibility doesn't exist, but you seem to imply that saying they're immune to EE is fallacious just because "we don't know what would happen" (which is also true of transduality).

I'd also like to know who exactly rejected this, since to my knowledge it was supported by Ultima and rejected by you and Agnaa (and 2-1 hardly seems fair for a site revision).

 

[Ovy7]

What do you think about this?

I'm sorry, but I don't really consider myself good at evaluating Powers and Abilities.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm sorry, but I don't really consider myself good at evaluating Powers and Abilities.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808

What do you think?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure but will wait for more input from higher up staff more familiar with the topic.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

@DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale

What do you think about this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808

What do you think?

In my view to cover stuff it would be better to have Transduality be split in two sections since we currently don't cover Nonduality anywhere.

The point of Transduality is that the person in question is Outside of and Utterly Beyond a binary system and that's fine, since contextually we're a nerd battle board site and we track those things.

The issue is that we don't have anything for just being outside a dual system, which would still be incredibly useful to note and in general Nonduality is a far more common historical and fictional concept as the OP states. We essentially have a type of Nonduality that very few fictional universes (or IRL religions) would ever have or cover and I agree that it can be a problem.

So in my view we should just do some revision. Make it something like:

• Nonduality Type X - Outside of either a singular Dual System, Every Dual System
• Transduality or some greater level of Nonduality - Outside of and Transcendent over the idea of Dual Systems

Or at least that's how I'd do it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In my view to cover stuff it would be better to have Transduality be split in two sections since we currently don't cover Nonduality anywhere.

The point of Transduality is that the person in question is Outside of and Utterly Beyond a binary system and that's fine, since contextually we're a nerd battle board site and we track those things.

The issue is that we don't have anything for just being outside a dual system, which would still be incredibly useful to note and in general Nonduality is a far more common historical and fictional concept as the OP states. We essentially have a type of Nonduality that very few fictional universes (or IRL religions) would ever have or cover and I agree that it can be a problem.

So in my view we should just do some revision. Make it something like:

• Nonduality Type X - Outside of either a singular Dual System, Every Dual System
• Transduality or some greater level of Nonduality - Outside of and Transcendent over the idea of Dual Systems

Or at least that's how I'd do it.

So it'd be a bit like beyond dimensional existence, then? I'm okay with that, but shouldn't transduality and nonduality both be given the same types?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So it'd be a bit like beyond dimensional existence, then?

More or less yeah

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Sorry for intruding but I'll just ask this very quick question and not post more. Would it just be ND 1 & 2 and TD 1 & 2 & 3? Or would TD 3 get it's own thing from what someone else suggested?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In my personal opinion, ND should still get type 3 since one of the most famous examples of it is wuji, which does not include any sort of transcendence.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sorry for intruding but I'll just ask this very quick question and not post more. Would it just be ND 1 & 2 and TD 1 & 2 & 3? Or would TD 3 get it's own thing from what someone else suggested?

My proposal would be like

• Outside of a specific system
• Outside of all systems
• Transcendent over a system
• Transcendent over all systems

 

[Firestorm808]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808

What do you think?

I'm fine with Non-Duality being a sub-category of the Ability.

In turn, we need to update our examples of each type.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm fine with Non-Duality being a sub-category of the Ability.

In turn, we need to update our examples of each type.

I think we're actually taking the reverse approach. Renaming it to nonduality and making transduality a subcategory.

I think that's sensible given that nonduality is the more accurate way of referring to it, and something being truly "transdual" is quite rare as the OP shows.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, non-duality should be the default since it's a lot more common. Unless there is a term that would encompass both nonduality AND transduality.

 

[Firestorm808]

I think we're actually taking the reverse approach. Renaming it to nonduality and making transduality a subcategory.

I think that's sensible given that nonduality is the more accurate way of referring to it, and something being truly "transdual" is quite rare as the OP shows.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think we're actually taking the reverse approach. Renaming it to nonduality and making transduality a subcategory.

Yeah. Transduality would be a greater form of Nonduality.

 

[Reiner04]

I have a question- what nonduality will provide? Resistance towards dualities? Like Existence Erasure (in case of duality being E and non E).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have a question- what nonduality will provide? Resistance towards dualities? Like Existence Erasure (in case of duality being E and non E).

Immunity towards duality, just as we treat the lack of a soul, or mind, or so on.

 

[ImmortalDread]

And what would be the difference to our current "transduality"?

 

[Reiner04]

And what would be the difference to our current "transduality"?

Transduality would be some sort of superiority over dualities (as well as independence) and non duality would be independence from dualities.