• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Transduality Should be Nonduality

Status
Not open for further replies.
Neither qualitative supriority and any other words.

The word being real or not is not even a problem as long as you defined the word which in matter of fact, this word is defined that simply being non-dual is not enough without showing some supriority.
The point is that Nonduality is a more accurate term, more widely used, and more accessible than Transduality. And that the standards need to be changed regardless because being without duality and being "above" it have the same consequence.
 
Neither qualitative supriority and any other words.

The word being real or not is not even a problem as long as you defined the word which in matter of fact, this word is defined that simply being non-dual is not enough without showing some supriority.

Also, the OP did not even suggest any alternative? I don't see any sandbox or any "alternative solution" except as always calling it nonsensical.
My alternative is literally the title of the thread, Dread. But in case you missed it, we should get rid of QS as a requirement and rename the power to Nonduality.
 
Existence also involves a state of non-existence, "if you exist, you have no complete non-exist" or "if there is total light in a reality, there is no darkness", but these are also dualities of "existence- nonexistence" and "light-darkness" and are also these dualities have a "non-duality" relationship within themselves.
No? I really don't understand what you are attempting to say.

"Nonduality" is to be non distinct, and without dualistic qualities. Duality describes the existence of Dualistic Qualities. Your statement contradicts itself.
 
My alternative is literally the title of the thread, Dread. But in case you missed it, we should get rid of QS as a requirement and rename the power to Nonduality.
I am aware of it and the next? You are purposing a huge update, don't you think you need an a concept blog or something? Because changing the name is not the issue here.
 
The point is that Nonduality is a more accurate term, more widely used, and more accessible than Transduality. And that the standards need to be changed regardless because being without duality and being "above" it have the same consequence.
Which is my point, where is her "alternative" standards?
 
I am aware of it and the next? You are purposing a huge update, don't you think you need an a concept blog or something? Because changing the name is not the issue here.
Removing the "Qualitive superiority" requirements and renaming the power aren't massive updates. This isn't a complete overhaul of the page, it's just modifying the names and description requirements.
 
I disagree, a person needs to show immunity or uneffectness to said non-dual, you guys are not really helping the case. If he ain't showing any supriority, what is the point of nondual in matches? To give an extra assumption that he is being uneffected?

Removing the transcendence and simply give it to the characters some ability that we don't even know how they function in matches is not alternative solution
 
Most of the profiles presented in the OP do not have "transcendence". The request here is obviously to remove this "transcendence" nonsense as you put it.
No one is stating that everyone who had the power originally by "transcending dualities" is going to lose it with the alteration.
 
No? I really don't understand what you are attempting to say.

"Nonduality" is to be non distinct, and without dualistic qualities. Duality describes the existence of Dualistic Qualities. Your statement contradicts itself.
So you're not the type to understand that. If you don't understand despite giving so many examples and explaining it all the time, that's your problem.
 
Most of the profiles presented in the OP do not have "transcendence". The request here is obviously to remove this "transcendence" nonsense as you put it.
Name one character on the wiki who actually has qualitative superiority over duality. Because right now, it seems like the standards make it so no character will qualify.
 
I disagree, a person needs to show immunity or uneffectness to said non-dual, you guys are not really helping the case. If he ain't showing any supriority, what is the point of nondual in matches? To give an extra assumption that he is being uneffected?

Removing the transcendence and simply give it to the characters some ability that we don't even know how they function in matches is not alternative solution
Being removed from the dichotomy of life and death has the same effect as transcending life and death. These aforementioned things don't effect you.
 
Being removed from the dichotomy of life and death has the same effect as transcending life and death. These aforementioned things don't effect you.
This is really bad example, because this is simply immortality type 5 and it heavily depends on the context.
 
I'm not even reading the rest of your reply because this is just straight up lying lol
I didn't say that for Transduality LOL. This indicates that you did not read or did not understand what you read. Unfortunately, you can't even understand that. If only you could lift your head and take a look at my other posts, then you would understand.
 
I don't understand why do you want to remove any requirements for getting nondual... except being called nondual? And what is the next?

You need some benefits for being nondual and you need to show those said benefits, and they already clarified in the page - the supriority/trancendence over nondual which is what we call or created the term "transduality".

Also lame, you are moving it to staff discussion once an opposation came. (really pain stuff)
 
Which is my point, where is her "alternative" standards?

These are the changes which would be undertaken
Transduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, and qualitatively beyond, various dual system's
"And qualitatively beyond" would be removed

Transduality is not simply nonduality, but additionally requires something like qualitative superiority
This part would also be removed

Any other part which implies that the character should be qualitatively superior to the duality they lack would also be changed

And the term "transduality" would be changed to "non-duality"

All the arguments regarding these are already discussed above so, kindly, don't make this thread repetitive and just wait for staffs to give their stance on this.
 
I don't understand why do you want to remove any requirements for getting nondual... except being called nondual? And what is the next?

You need some benefits for being nondual and you need to show those said benefits, and they already clarified in the page - the supriority/trancendence over nondual which is what we call or created the term "transduality".

Also lame, you are moving it to staff discussion once an opposation came. (really pain stuff)
Firstly don't go around accusing members of being "corrupt" or "fearing opposition" simply because they requested that it become a staff thread. Don't derail.

Secondly, being without duality or unbound by it can itself be described as a form of "superiority".

And stop using the page's standards an argument. This thread is to change the standards.
 
I don't understand why do you want to remove any requirements for getting nondual... except being called nondual? And what is the next?

You need some benefits for being nondual and you need to show those said benefits, and they already clarified in the page - the supriority/trancendence over nondual which is what we call or created the term "transduality".

Also lame, you are moving it to staff discussion once an opposation came. (really pain stuff)
No, I'm moving it to staff discussion because you keep derailing with shit like this, which is completely misrepresenting my argument.
 
It never implied or "requested" to be qualtiative suprior, you can see "something like qualitative supriority" giving other option for getting the ability.
 
I don't understand why do you want to remove any requirements for getting nondual... except being called nondual? And what is the next?

You need some benefits for being nondual and you need to show those said benefits, and they already clarified in the page - the supriority/trancendence over nondual which is what we call or created the term "transduality".

Also lame, you are moving it to staff discussion once an opposation came. (really pain stuff)
What benefits are there for transduality?
Whatever it is, it would apply to non duality as well
 
It never implied or "requested" to be qualtiative suprior, you can see "something like qualitative supriority" giving other option for getting the ability.
Yet it’s almost always a standard that you need to be qualitatively above dualities to get the tier. That’s wrong. Hence the CRT
 
Firstly don't go around accusing members of being "corrupt" or "fearing opposition" simply because they requested that it become a staff thread. Don't derail.
There is no accusations, because the act simply means "I am moving it, so I can shut up the members who are opposing", otherwise the request would never be found if people were agreeing instead.
Secondly, being without duality or unbound by it can itself be described as a form of "superiority".
Which goes to second option that page gave: "being uneffected by its effects". Qualitative supriority is simply an other option.
Yet it’s almost always a standard that you need to be qualitatively above dualities to get the tier. That’s wrong. Hence the CRT
Is being "almost" does not refute the fact it is not a single option.
 
I've moved this to staff discussion upon request from Fujiwara. This makes sense as this concerns a site wide revision.

I ask that all non staff who were previously discussing the topic to now allow staff to get involved and give their assessments. So Dread, Tarang, Shiva, etc. You've said your respective pieces and may be able to say more later, but it's best that the thread isn't overrun with arguing before any more staff can actually read or discuss it.

That's all. Thank you.
 
I deeply apologize for my previous lack of courtesy in assuming that the OP intended to move the thread to a staff discussion with the intention of silencing opposition.

Furthermore, I want to clarify that in my previous message, I did not imply or state that you are corrupt. I was merely expressing my perception that there may be a tolerated systemic abuse, based on my own perspective. I did not intend to make any direct accusations (in matter of fact, I strikethrough the message imply for sarcasm which most of people here do), as I understand that truth and correctness can vary depending on someone's viewpoints.

Once again, I apologize for any misunderstanding caused by my previous message.
 
I dislike the way we treat transduality now. Evidently, I'm not the only one, since nobody, not even the staff, seem to abide by the rules we have set in place for the power. This is because of the requirement that any prospective user should have "qualitative superiority" over the dualities they are unbound from, and merely being absent of duality doesn't qualify. This is ******* insane for several reasons, so here we go.

We Made Transduality Up

Look up the word 'transduality' and what will you find? Various VS debating pages and that's it. It is not a real term that exists, and the fact that only battleboarders know what the hell it means is a red flag. Of course, duality (and by extension, nonduality) is a very real thing that has been documented across history; Countless religions, most notably eastern religions such as Taoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism, make use of nondualism in their belief systems. The Yin-Yang, arguably the most important symbol related to duality, is in fact a representation of everything acting as a part of a nondual whole. The Taiji, which we currently use as the defining symbol on the transduality page, is a similar symbol, one representing the oneness before duality and giving birth to the Yin-Yang. The problem? Despite literal centuries of dualism being discussed in theology and philosophy, none of this shit comes even close to qualitative superiority. This means the real world basis for the power itself uses nonduality and not transduality, something that we even directly acknowledge on the page itself by choosing to use Taiji as the symbol.

Transduality Rejects the Most Archetypal Users of the Power

Imagine if someone changed the time stop qualifications so characters like Dio Brando would no longer qualify. That'd be absurd, right? Because Dio's time stop is, of course, a thing he is very well known for, to the point where he is THE character many people associate with stopping time. So why do we allow the same for transduality? We can look at every example given on the transduality page, and see just how silly this is. To be clear, I'm not denying or attempting to debunk any character on this list, merely showing how overly strict transduality's standards are.

-Kamen Rider Gaim: Said to have 'transcended' life and death, which contextually refers to escaping the cycle of life/death or destruction/creation. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Rimuru Tempest: Said to have become a 'transcendent god' over Veldanava, who is a being predating the duality of light and darkness, or yin and yang. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Lucifer Morningstar: Exists outside of God's plans, which include the duality of life and death. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Sun Wukong via Buddhism Physiology: Transcendent Monks are free from attachment to all universes, containing countless phenomena governed by the yin and yang. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Dragon Talisman characters: Exists outside the Empyrean Dao, which created duality, and therefore exist outside duality itself. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Khorne: The Aethyric Void is a place where all concepts, normally separate in higher realms, break down and combine into a single, universal abstract. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Oblivion: Unbound by the laws of everything that is and isn't, and is stated to be similar to the taoist concept of wuji. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Swirl of the Root: Exists beyond and encompasses all duality, including the taiji, a nondual state of oneness. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

From this, we can see that every single character listed on the transduality page - characters who are supposed to have the most clear cut, well known, and well explained examples of transduality on the wiki - does not even qualify for transduality. Now, some of these characters are said to 'transcend' duality, but we explicitly do not allow qualitative superiority to be given on the basis of transcendence without context, so not even that qualifies. Some of you may recall the changes made to type 5 acausality, where the standards became so overly strict that no character on the wiki qualified. What we see now is the exact same, and just like type 5 acausality, it's a sign that something needs to change.

Requiring Qualitative Superiority Makes No Sense

Qualitative superiority is, as we consider it, a state wherein everything beneath you is seen as uncountably infinitely small. This can be achieved merely through infinite differences in spatial dimensions, or by seeing lower planes as something akin to fiction. As of now, we also consider qualitative superiority over duality as a requirement for transduality, disallowing the mere absence of duality, a standard which, as shown above, is ridiculous. However, there are two other reasons why qualitative superiority should not be the benchmark for nonduality.

Logically, non-duality can and should do everything that transduality does. If someone transcends life and death, they'd of course be in a state of deathless immortality, neither alive nor dead, and therefore immune to the manipulation of life and death. But the exact same goes for non-duality. If you exist absent of life and death, then you'd still have deathless immortality, you'd still be neither alive nor dead, and you'd still be immune to life or death manipulation. The same goes for any other duality there is, so why do we insist on requiring transcendence?

But worse than all that, we don't even consider what it actually means to be qualitatively superior in this context. It's fairly easy to apply QS to a physical structure like a universe, but concepts are a different ball game entirely; Can you really be 'infinitely larger than' life and death? What does it mean to be uncountably infinitely greater than existence and non-existence? Or, to give a more specific example, does it make any sense at all for a character to transcend the duality of reality and fiction by viewing it as fiction? As a consequence of this QS requirement, anybody with low 1-C tiering or 5D HDE would just, have transduality by default because they are technically transcending the dualities present in lower dimensions. Zero thought was put into how and why 'qualitative superiority' would even work in this context; Ostensibly, it was only added in order to make transduality harder to get and therefore more "special", or the inclusion of QS could ironically make transduality something that every tier 1 character gets.

TL;DR: Transduality's standards are nonsensical, overly strict, and quite literally everybody on this site ignores them anyways. Transduality should be changed to non-duality.
transduality is a real word afaik
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top