Tower of God has a speed problem (+Crown Game Calculations)

[ElajRuengies]

@Enryu_The_Red_Tower
(This is my first time posting this kind of thing so someone tell me if I'm doing anything wrong)

Okay so, before I get to the part of the title that is in parenthesis, let me get this issue out of the way.
The calculations that establishes the Relativistic Speed for Tower of God isn't completely solid, and the results of this are weird and have been contradicted by the story.

Basically, the mid to high tier Speed "Floor" and the Speed "Ceiling" are way too close together. The fastest speed for the Verse is Urek's attack speed, as he is able to fire shinsoo at Lightspeed. Meanwhile, Data Urek can apparently move at a little over 1/3 SoL, putting him at Relativistic.

Now, this means that the speed of every single person between the level of Data Urek and actual Urek's shinsoo, AKA most Rankers, fits into a high over low-end ratio of less than 3.
In other words, 100% Urek's shinsoo is apparently less than three times faster than Lero Ro, despite the fact that Casual Urek's shinsoo blitzes two Rankers during Ch. 33, at the end of the Zigena Flower arc.

Ignoring the outside ramifications though, the Mirror Calculation still isn't solid. This isn't because of any math error though, it's because it assumes that the reflection from the Mirror travels at Lightspeed, despite being in a Data World. As stated at the beginning of S2 Ch. 272;

Bam: Were we really inside that thing?! Seeing it from the outside, it looks way smaller than I thought!?

Hansung: The space inside there was probably compressed. You can't trust the space-time in this place. Everything can be adjusted with data. Because this is a 'Virtual Floor.'

As such, it can't be assumed that the reflection was travelling at Lightspeed. (Especially when it causes weird fridge logic for the rest of the speed scaling in the Verse.) What we should do about Ranker's speeds in the meanwhile, I'm not sure.

I've also got a case for how Anaak dodging Ran's lightning shouldn't be Massively Hypersonic but Hypersonic (Mach 7.6 specifically) using the high-end speed of electricity through air, but I need to do other things. (I wasn't typing this in order; I started with the Crown Game Room calc, then typed the speed problem exhibit A, and then this)

And now for the Crown Room feats.

Now, height/size scaling in Tower of God is generally pretty wack, but the good news is that the 3D modelled objects are always the same size relative to itself, which in this case applies to the entire Crown Game Room, including the Throne/Chair, and also the Crown. This is incredibly useful, as many things happen in the Crown Game Room, which can be done math too!
(Here are the reference images I used; and this is the pixel measurer I used.)

SIZE OF THE CROWN ROOM:
Scan 1: Size of the Crown's diameter relative to Anaak

• Anaak Height (154cm): 285 pixels
• Diameter of Crown: 51 pixels

154/285 * 51 = 27.55789474 cm
- Diameter of Crown: 27.6 cm (27.55789.... cm)

Scan 2: Size of the Crown relative to the Chair
-Diameter of Crown (27.5579 cm): 19 pixels
-Width of Chair: 310 pixels

27.55789474/19 * 310 = 449.6288089 cm
-Width of Chair: 449.6288... cm or 4.5 meters

Scan 3: Chair and Room

• Width of Chair: (4.5m) 14 pixels
• Radius of Room: ~400 pixels

4.5/14 * 400 = 128.5714286
- Radius of Room: 128.57 meters

Scan 4: Chair and Room 2: Electric Boogaloo (Because Scan 3 was pretty zoomed in so double checking time)

• Width of Chair: (4.5m) 16 pixels
• Radius of Room: ~450 pixels

4.5/16 * 450 = 126.5625
- Radius of Room: 126.6 meters

Scan 5: Chair and Room 3: Tokyo Drift (Because those last two scans were weirdly close)
- Width of Chair: (4.5m) 11 pixels
-Radius of Room: (Following the path the bottom of the Green April took) ~320 pixels

4.5/11 * 320 = 130.909090...
- Radius of Room: 130.9 meters

Conclusion: So this solidifies that the Crown Game room is around 128.7 meters in radius. (128.6810065 meters, averaging the 3 scans)

Feat 1: At the start of Chapter 21, Khun clears the entire radius of the Crown Room.

Oh boy, the best part about comic calcs: finding timeframes!
Now, in the anime, Khun took around 5 seconds, but the entire design of the Crown Room is different (namely it's smaller), and is anime non canon anyway, so I'm going to ignore it.

Assuming everyone started at the same time, Khun's step was achieved in the time it took for Lozeal/Rozeal (Wand Girl) to raise her whole arm. According to this, it ranges from 250 to over 500 milliseconds (0.25 - 0.5+ seconds) for a healthy adult to move their arms up in front of their face (while bracing for impact). Given that Rozeal is carrying an item, I'll use the high end estimate of 500 milliseconds.
This was closest thing I could find for "Time to raise arm in front of head" outside of me grabbing a stick and a stopwatch, and given that Rozeal isn't from a Great Family, can't use shinsu (otherwise why would she be using a wand?), and this is just the 2nd Floor, it should be usable. Please notify me if not.

128.6810065/0.5 = 257.362013

Crown Game Khun is travelling at 257.362 m/s; Subsonic+

Feat 2: At the start of Chapter 15, Anaak casually throws/hits Kon, Shopin, and then Kancho across the Game room.

This one's pretty simple; given that they are thrown a distance comparable/almost of the same as the radius of the Crown Game Room, and using the Thrown-A-Distance table, this is a Wall level feat.

(Additionally, given that 1. She should be faster than Khun, and 2. She makes it to the Chair in one jump although granted she was already halfway there, Crown Game Anaak is likely Subsonic+ to Transonic)

 

[ElajRuengies]

Bump

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Honestly, I agree and it makes sense that the Relativistic speed for anyone who scales to it currently is removed, it is very likely that the Top Tiers (Zahard, 10 Family Heads, Arlen, V and Urek) and God Tiers (Enryu and Floor Guardians) are the only ones that potentially could be the characters with a Relativistic feat or above in the future, making Data Urek's feat look like an outlier. But I also don't know what speed the Rankers (and people at this level, such as Data Zahard) and the High Rankers should have now, we need a good speed feat and calculate.

About the MHS and MHS+, I think we need more people to discuss this.

I think this should be enough to scale the speed of Season 1 characters and featless Regulars from the E-Rank and D-Rank

 

[Ped2018]

I don't agree with your assumption that the top tiers are Lightspeed or something like that, i'm gonna comment on this later

 

[ElajRuengies]

Honestly, I agree and it makes sense that the Relativistic speed for anyone who scales to it currently is removed, it is very likely that the Top Tiers (Zahard, 10 Family Heads, Arlen, V and Urek) and God Tiers (Enryu and Floor Guardians) are the only ones that potentially could be the characters with a Relativistic feat or above in the future, making Data Urek's feat look like an outlier. But I also don't know what speed the Rankers (and people at this level, such as Data Zahard) and the High Rankers should have now, we need a good speed feat and calculate.

About the MHS and MHS+, I think we need more people to discuss this.

I think this should be enough to scale the speed of Season 1 characters and featless Regulars from the E-Rank and D-Rank

On that last point I disagree a bit, as the base stats of a member of the Ten Great Families/A Jahad Princess (even if it's just half blood) upon entering the Tower still seems to be better than the majority E-Rank regulars. (Although considering how even the average folk of Team Sweet n' Sour performed in Revolution Road, I could see the argument being made for average D-Rank Regulars being comparable to 2nd Floor 10GF members.)

Granted, I'm saying this while we only have two explicitly stated "average for a 10 Great Family Member" folk, them being Khun and Yura (Specifically she's below par for a woman of the Ha Family, but that still meets the bar for a 10GFM on average), but considering that Yura displays quite similar feats--

Strength: Khun carried three people in a bag one-handedly, while Yura carries Rachel, Hoaqin, and Traveller in her suitcase in early FoD.

Speed: (Given that regulars can commonly use shinsoo boosts at D-Rank, Yura obviously should be faster than Crown Game Khun, albeit still on a similar level)
(Reference Images here) During Revolution Road (S2 CH136), Hwaryun (who is the same speed as Yura) crosses a distance of roughly 8 meters from her starting position in the time it takes Daniel's eyes to briefly flick to the side and back. This is called a saccade, and they last for 20 - 40 milliseconds; I'll use 20 milliseconds because Daniel's a quick boy.
~8 meters / 0.02 seconds = ~400 m/s; Supersonic
(Given that during the Crown Game, Hwaryun was on equal footing with Endorsi, who should be faster than Anaak, who should be faster than Khun, this checks out)

-- I think a that there's a solid outline for what base Ten Great Family Member builds are. (Namely, being able to easily carry the weight of several people, and being capable of moving a couple hundred meters per second)

Anyway, as for the first two points; I know of two moments that could be used for getting High Ranker speeds (spoiler: It involves Urek), although nothing for someone who's Quant Level. I know there's that shot at the end of Team A's Hide and Seek test, but I'm not sure what to do with it.

And again, this is my first time posting something like this, so if I'm getting something wrong, someone please let me know.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@ElajRuengies

Looking at your argument, I now think that only the Top 10 E-Rank Regulars, Top 3 D-Rank Regulars and characters comparable or superior to them should scale to this speed

 

[ElajRuengies]

@Enryu_The_Red_Tower

Looking at your argument, I now think that only the Top 10 E-Rank Regulars, Top 3 D-Rank Regulars and characters comparable or superior to them should scale to this speed

Well, I wouldn't say that either, since there are E-Rank people who specialize in speed that are faster than this. Edin Dan is faster than Ran (his combat speed isn't, but his travel speed is), and Vespa, the giant bee-moth, frequently boasted that she/he's was the fastest Regular, and while that was totally a bluff, they were able to keep pace with Utoh who was actually Hwaryun. And then Beta showed that he was way faster than Vespa in S2 CH89, where he cleared the entire distance between them in the time it took Vespa to travel some distance I can't tell due to the way it was framed. (Maybe one body length? No idea tbh.) Viole was then shown to be superior to a coughing-up-blood Beta. (Who said that even if he was at his best, Viole w/ 1st Thorn Ignition would still be beyond his ability to handle.)

What this specifically does to scaling in terms of exact numbers I don't know since I don't feel like doing any more math today (I typed this part last, everything after was typed before), so I might try to do math to it later along with the Quant bridge blitz and Edin Dan clearing the range of a large cannon calc. (Assuming comparing Beta to Vespa isn't calc-stacking, which I think it might be in highsight)

Honestly, I agree and it makes sense that the Relativistic speed for anyone who scales to it currently is removed, it is very likely that the Top Tiers (Zahard, 10 Family Heads, Arlen, V and Urek) and God Tiers (Enryu and Floor Guardians) are the only ones that potentially could be the characters with a Relativistic feat or above in the future, making Data Urek's feat look like an outlier. But I also don't know what speed the Rankers (and people at this level, such as Data Zahard) and the High Rankers should have now, we need a good speed feat and calculate.

On the last part; (and just the last part; I'll let @Ped2018 respond to the first part before I say anything) I think I have something.

Okay so, there are two calculations I know of that can help gauge the speed of a High Ranker, but they're both rather fuzzy in terms of time scale.

Luckily, the basis of the distance is more solid! And that basis is the depth of Administrator's corpse. During Urek's Moses Punch, the shock from the explosion actually breaks through to above the corpse, as Yuje (who was in the air above the corpse) can see the effects; reference here- meaning that the Corpse has to be around the same depth as the radius of the largest blast. The calculation for the Moses Punch (here) uses the Southern Alp's 500 kilometers as a reference, so I will too. Measuring the radius of the biggest blast bubble by drawing a perpendicular line relative to the curve of the hemisphere across two points; pics (here), the radius is 660 pixels long. (The resolution of the screenshot I used put the length of the mountains at 712 pixels long, which is slightly less pixels than the calc had on account of my resolution being worse)

Depth of Corpse:
Length of Mountain Group (500km): 712 pixels
Radius of Big Bubble: 660 pixels

500 / 712 = 0.702247191
0.702247191 *660 = 463.4831461

The Admin Corpse, from the skin to the sea/lake level, is about 463.5 kilometers deep.

(This size is also supported by the smallest blood-hole shown being the one Ai [the other Red Witch besides Hwaryun] was introduced in, which looked to be just able to fit her entire wingspan. A capillary is 5-10 micro-meters in diameter, one's wingspan is around the same as their height, and Ai is slightly taller than Hwaryun, so ~(1.75/0.000005 - 1.7/0.00001) equals a scaling factor of ~(350,000 - 175,000). Alternatively; the Red Witch Hideout is Gallstone Village which- assuming it is both a Gallstone and the size of a Village, would make it around a kilometer across. The average gallstone is 5-10 mm across, making a scaling factor of (1000/0.005 - 1000/0.01) or (200,000 - 100,000). Applying these scaling factors to a 2 meter tall human body gets a min to max length of ~(200 km - 700) km. Now while applying human anatomy to an Admin is a reach, the 43F Admin does take the shape of a human at some point during the fight with Enryu, along with several other equally large forms all attached together. So it's not completely unreasonable to think that the Floor of Death Corpse-Blob is several hundred kilometers across at least in one direction.)

SPEED CALC ONE:
At the start of S2 CH246/End of S2 CH245, Urek makes a big arrival by crashing into where Karaka is, because he's destined to be every girl's hero. (Let's ignore that Urek can apparently smell a whiff of perfume that's inside a corpse from nearly 500 kilometers away, because that's honestly terrifying) Given how Karaka and Hoaqin didn't feel much power coming off from Urek when he entered, but they did when he used 5%, the calc will assume that Urek was using only 1% of his power.

Now then, this is where timeframes get fuzzy, and the calc gets either super lowballed, or extremely wanky.

A cut to 30 minutes ago shows Urek being given the bracelet in order to hide his power level, but we don't actually see Urek start to move. As such, the maximum and minimum timeframes for this feat are;

• Urek took the entire 30 minutes to get where Karaka is. (1800 seconds)
• Urek arrived in the timeframe of him telling off Karaka for hitting a girl and actually arriving. (1 second)

The only reason I'm even considering the minimum timeframe and not disregarding it as complete wank is because it's equivalent to Urek taking the entire 30 minutes, but the path he took was 1800 times longer than a straight shot, which- given that the human circulatory system is over 100,000 kilometers long all added together, taking an uber long path isn't impossible considering the size of the Admin. Though it's still very wanky in my opinion. Again, applying human anatomy logic is a bit iffy, but we do see a lot of red and purple tubes in the cross-section cuts.) (Keep in mind that this is Urek with shinsoo, as Hell Joe had not used his hax yet)

Max Time: 463.4831461/1800 = 0.2574906367 km/s = 257.4906367 m/s = ~Mach 0.75 = 1% Urek is Subsonic+; 100% Urek is ~Mach 75 or High Hypersonic+

Max- Min Geometric Average = sqrt(257.4906367 * 463,483.1461) = 10,924.40252 m/s = ~Mach 31.85 = 1% Urek is High Hypersonic; 100% Urek is ~Mach 3184.957 or Massively Hypersonic+

Min Time: 463.4831461/1 = 463.4831461 km/s = 463,483.1461 m/s = ~Mach 1351.26 = 1% Urek is Massively Hypersonic+; 100% Urek is ~Mach 135,126.28, or ~15.3375% Speed of Light, or Relativistic.

The second calc revolves around this;

In S2 CH159, The cast manages to get to the Warp Gate to the 37th Floor because Khun managed to pull an Uno Reverse Card against Jinsung on what ship they were taking to go through the Warp Gate, resulting in Jinsung getting separated from the ship as it travels through the gate/door. Khun also says this:

Even if he's a High-Ranker, he won't be able to catch a floating ship on warp.

This is then immediately countered the next scene by someone telling Jinsung that he totally could, and Jinsung confirming this by saying that while that's true, the the Admin would get mad at him if he did. (While Warp seems to be Teleporting, what's said about Jinsung implies that it can be outsped, so the calc treats warp like a speed)

But since it involves two estimates on the height of a Floor to get the distance warped, and given how it estimates the height based on the depth of the Admin's Corpse, I want to wait and see if someone points out if I did something wrong here, before doing more math. (Also, the height of a Floor is kind of a big-ish deal from what I remember)

On your second point-

About the MHS and MHS+, I think we need more people to discuss this.

I agree, although I'm not sure how to get more people. (Side note: Jeez this was a really long message)

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Yes, I know that there are other characters of E-Rank that are faster than the Top 10 E-Rank Regulars despise of them not being between them, I just didn't want to quote them as it would practically make my message unnecessarily big . And I think that using Baam as an example is not good, since he practically outclass the most notable Regulars of the E and D ranking during that time.

I think this is fine, but I remember that on this site we only scale the percentages of power, I don't remember any case about using percentage in speed, but you should ask an expert if percentages can be accepted in speed.

Honestly, I think this is the phrase: "Even if he's a High-Ranker, he won't be able to catch a floating ship on warp.", It should only refer to the High Rankers bellow the Top 300, and the latters are portrayed as being at a completely different level from anyone outside of the Top 300 or simply underestimating Jinsung for not having seen what he is capable of.

The most I can offer you help with is that you ask people who participated in my ToG CRT to participate in this CRT again

 

[ElajRuengies]

Yes, I know that there are other characters of E-Rank that are faster than the Top 10 E-Rank Regulars despise of them not being between them, I just didn't want to quote them as it would practically make my message unnecessarily big . And I think that using Baam as an example is not good, since he practically outclass the most notable Regulars of the E and D ranking during that time.

Ah, that makes sense. And I agree with what you said about not scaling other regulars to Bam; him being compared to Beta was just for getting a grasp of Workshop Pre-Ignition Bam's speed.

I think this is fine, but I remember that on this site we only scale the percentages of power, I don't remember any case about using percentage in speed, but you should ask an expert if percentages can be accepted in speed.

Wait really? Huh. I saw that Workshop Ran w/ Redan was put as twice as fast as Base Workshop Ran (MHS+ to MHS), and the Redan was a 2x Multiplier, so I guess I assumed that the same logic applied to Urek's percentages. Although that's fair; I'll try to look around when I can.

Honestly, I think this is the phrase: "Even if he's a High-Ranker, he won't be able to catch a floating ship on warp.", It should only refer to the High Rankers bellow the Top 300, and the latters are portrayed as being at a completely different level from anyone outside of the Top 300 or simply underestimating Jinsung for not having seen what he is capable of.

Oh definitely; I see that as most High Rankers being slower than a ship on warp, but it being put as a minimum threshold for people on Jinsung's level.

The most I can offer you help with is that you ask people who participated in my ToG CRT to participate in this CRT again

I'll get to doing that a bit later; my last message took up nearly half the scrolling space of this thread as well as my entire school day to write, which was not my greatest time investment. Today's Friday though, so I'll likely try over the weekend. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to help out with bringing more attention to this thread.

@Blackcurrant91 @Elizhaa @Nico-v11 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Zencha9 @The_Foolish_Omniscient_Guy @MiguelABarrios

What do you think about this?

 

[Gabriel_00]

What about Yuri's rose shower? It covered an enormous distance in a very short amount of time.

And i don't think relativistic regulars are all that inconsistent, ever since the mirror feat we never saw anyone get speed blitzed(and Baam fought multiple rankers ever since then). It is inconsistent if you consider the tier of the characters and their speed as being related, but the story itself isn't. But i'm fine with whatever is decided.

 

[ElajRuengies]

What about Yuri's rose shower? It covered an enormous distance in a very short amount of time.

The calc for Yuri's Rose Shower gives it a timeframe of 15 seconds, and a speed of 1,969.3 m/s, or Mach 5.74, or Hypersonic. But that's attack speed, and I'm talking about Travel/Combat speed.

And i don't think relativistic regulars are all that inconsistent, ever since the mirror feat we never saw anyone get speed blitzed(and Baam fought multiple rankers ever since then). It is inconsistent if you consider the tier of the characters and their speed as being related, but the story itself isn't. But i'm fine with whatever is decided.

I don't think it's inconsistent because I think Tier and Speed should be related, I think it's inconsistent because Urek is shown to be much, much faster than the Rankers he fights at the end of the Zigena Arc which- under the current calc and scaling that Ranker's are Relativistic (at least 1/3 SoL), would not make sense.

If characters that can level a country are only shown to be a bit faster than character that can level a mountain, then there wouldn't be a problem. But this isn't supported by the story.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Also, vast speed differences between Ranker-level folk have been shown since Data Urek's Mirror Feat; namely in S3 CH61, where Evankhell just barely manages to get out of the way of Lefav's bullet in the time it takes Lefav's bullet to go from a twinkle in the distance to right past her.

According to current speed scaling, Evankhell must be travelling at a minimum of just over 1/3 SoL, meaning that Lefav's bullet is going FTL, meaning Lefav's gun can apparently attack faster better than Urek can.

There's also Chang getting casually off'd by Grande in S3 CH16, which hits him before he reacts, but this example isn't dealing with the Relativistic Problem, but just proof that there's still vast speed differences between Rankers and strong Regulars.

Anyways, I got a calc for the speed of standard Rankers (not High Rankers) based on this scene in S1 CH41 where, Quant blitzes Anaak; clearing the entire distance from the exit to her before she can even react (Notice how her facial expression stays the same). This is despite how, according to Khun in S2 CH 76, Anaak has "monstrous instinct". (This is also what helped me put a number for the timeframe). Reference images for all this are here.

First, the distance from Quant at the exit to Anaak; (pixel measurement images here and here)
We can get the distance by Angsizing using the exit-door as a reference which gets the distance from the exit-door to the Viewpoint. Then the distance from Anaak to the Viewpoint can be Angsized using Anaak as a reference. And that distance can be subtracted from the distance of Quant to the Viewpoint, to get the distance from Quant to Anaak.

Now in order to get the height of the exit-door, it can be scaled to Quant's whole silhouette. Quant+hair is a full head shorter than Lero Ro who is 2m tall, and adults are eight heads tall, so:
* 2 - (2/8) = 1.75m
Quant himself is much shorter, but it's his outline height I want, not his head height.
Now pixel measuring the silhouette to the door;

• Quant+Hair Silhouette Height (1.75m): 50 pixels
• Door Height: 307 pixels
• Door Height: 175/50 * 307 = 10.745

The door is 10.745 meters tall.

Now Angsizing using the height of the panel with the door-

• Door Height (10.745m): 15 pixels
• Panel Height: 617 pixels
• Distance: 10.745 * (617/(15 * 2 * tan(70/2)) = 315.6047618

The distance to the Exit from the Viewpoint is 315.6047618 meters

Now, Anaak is Naruto-Running at roughly a 45 degree angle, meaning her actual vertical height is gonna be times sin(45degrees), or divided by sqrt(2).

• 1.54m / sqrt(2) = 1.088944443 meters
• Anaak Vertical (1.088944443m): 43 pixels
• Panel Height: Still 617 pixels
• Distance: 1.088944443 * (617/(43 * 2 * tan(70/2)) = 11.1574681

The distance to Anaak from the Viewpoint is 11.1574681 meters

Subtracting to get the distance from the exit to Anaak: 315.6047618 - 11.1574681 = 304.4472937 meters.

Now with the distance, all we need is the timeframe! In the anime, it took Quant about 1.5 seconds to get from the door to Anaak, but again, the Anime is non-canon. I'll use five different times for the low to high ends, them being the average reaction time to visual stimuli (~250 milliseconds), the high-ball reaction time for touch (100 milliseconds), the times it takes visual stimuli to travel to the brain (40-20 milliseconds), and the escape reflex of a cockroach (~11 milliseconds).

• Standard Visual Stimuli Reaction: 304.4472937 / 0.25 = ~1,217.789 m/s = ~Mach 3.55 = Supersonic+
• Hot-Plate Touch Stimuli Reaction: 304.4472937 / 0.1 = ~3,044.4729 m/s = ~Mach 8.876 = Hypersonic
• Max Time for Brain Processing: 304.4472937 / 0.04 = ~7,611.182 m/s = ~Mach 22.19 = Hypersonic+
• Min Time for Brain Processing: 304.4472937 / 0.02 = ~15,222.365 m/s = ~Mach 44.38 = High Hypersonic
• Escape Reflex of a Cockroach: 304.4472937 / 0.011 = ~28,691 m/s = ~Mach 83.65 = High Hypersonic+

The speed of Quant w/o Shinsoo has a lowball of Supersonic+, and a highball of High Hypersonic+. Using shinsoo he should be much faster, and average Rankers in general should be at least the speed of Quant w/o Shinsoo.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@ElajRuengies

As far as I can remember there are remarkable feats of speed in the Train City Arc.

Also, as far as I know, in the fight between Maschenny and Jinsung, the latter used lightning, I don't remember very well, but at some point Jinsung may have reacted to or blitzed the lightning, maybe you can use that to calculate the Combat and Reaction speed via this to scale the High Tiers (High Rankers at the Top 300 maybe should scale this)

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise what needs to be decided here please?

 

[ElajRuengies]

@Enryu_The_Red_Tower
So I looked over it again because I thought something similar, but unfortunately Jinsung literally just tanks everything Maschenny throws at him. (I don't think he dodges once...)

@Antvasima
This is what I'm trying to propose here-
1. The Relativistic Feat isn't solid (for reasons above), and something else needs to be done to get the speed of average Rankers.
2. The MHS Feat isn't solid since it shouldn't be assumed that Ran's attacks actually travel at the speed of lightning (for reasons below), and it should be redone using the high end speed of electricity in air.

This is what I'm asking-
1. I found a new minimum for the height of a Floor- is it solid and what do I do with this information?
2. Can Urek's percentages be applied to speed?

The rest of the message stuff are speed calculations trying to cover for the calcs that were thrown out.

Anyway, here's my case for why Jeonsulsa/"Lightning User's" attacks should not be automatically rated at the speed of lightning;
Point 1- Semantics behind Eduan's title (Reference to the translation here)

Another of his sobriquet, Blue Advance, is from the property of the Shinsoo he controls. The Shinsoo he controls is very fast and has tremendous electrical power. There were a lot of opinions that his sobriquet should be the Electric Eel because of this property, but Koon Eduan directly showed refusal, threatening he would 'kill everyone who called him an eel'. In the end, his sobriquet became Marlin.

(Blue Advance means Blue Lightning Strike) What's interesting is that, given the way it's phrased, it sounds less like Eduan's shinsoo is lightning, and more like his shinsoo is like lightning. The speed of his shinsoo and power of his shinsoo are even stated as two separate descriptors. Given how Eduan's stated to be the strongest Jeonsulsa, this vague difference would also extend to Jeonsulsas in general. this Of course, this would be rather flimsy evidence if this was my only argument.

Point 2-
In the blogpost of S2 CH199, here,

To add to my last week’s exposition,
Maschenny-style electric spears can only be used by Maschenny’s children.
[TN: Khun Maschenny, the mother of both Ran and Maschenny Jahad]
There are spells that copy it similarly,
but unlike Ran’s, they don’t have the same effect like the Lightning Pill
Since they’re forcibly mimicked, they got a limit unlike that of Ran’s.
At first, I said all of the Khun family uses electric attacks,
but I decided to scrap it because our Khun (Khun Aguero Agnes) would be put in a strange situation.

Notice how they're called electric spears, and electric attacks. (Lightning Pill is the LINE Webtoon translation of Redan, which is why everyone here just says Redan) And while tons Ran's attack names do have the word lightning in them, keep in mind Ran can also use a move called "Sword of Light/Sword of Brilliant Light", so attack names should be taken with a grain of sand.

Point 3- Unnamed Khun Stopping the Hell Train
And finally there's this thing I found while bashing my head in last week trying to find the size of the Hell-Train, in S2 CH162, where the unnamed Khun (at an attitude of 15 km- roughly the altitude of the top of an Anvil-Cloud) does the most-lightning like attack shown. (I'm not saying that this is lightning either, but it is the most lightning-like feat shown- moving on)
At least Daniel should be much faster than Anaak given that Daniel was faster than Ran w/ Redan in S2 CH124, and according to the current scaling logic- Anaak can dodge lightning from only ~9 meters away; therefore surely Daniel should have no problem with lightning strikes that can be seen coming from several kilometers away... But he does have a problem- no one even attempts to dodge, and all anyone can do in the scene is duck and cover. This doesn't make sense going by the current MHS+ speed scaling, which means that either it's wrong and Ran's attack did not go at the speed of lightning, or it's right and the unnamed Khun's lightning attacks goes (15,000m/9m) over a thousand faster than lightning. Meaning that his lightning which goes faster than lightning, would also be going faster than light.

In conclusion, I don't think Ran's "lightning" attacks should be assumed to go at the speed of lightning, but rather the high-end speed of electricity in air, given how it's never solidly stated to be proper lightning, and the weird fridge logic it causes when it's actually going at lightning speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am not able to properly evaluate all of that, but as long as Enryu agrees, it is probably fine.

However, if you need new calculations to base the statistics on, you need to get them properly done, place them in a blog post, and ask to get it evaluated.

 

[ElajRuengies]

@Antvasima

So, something like this I assume? If so, where do I get it evaluated? (Side note- holy crud blogs take forever to make)

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is correct.

Also, I replied to your blog post.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Thanks Ant!

Until the arguments against the Relativistic and MHS feats are evaluated, that's kinda all I can do right now. Enryu has voiced his thoughts on at least one of them, but I need more opinions to continue forward.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. For the moment you need to ask for evaluations in our official requests thread that I linked to in your blog.

 

[ElajRuengies]

I did that

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@ElajRuengies

About the MHS, I will trust your judgment about speed and agree with you, but I will wait and see what others say

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Why do we even scale Data Urek speed to others?He never got tsgged by a single attack, and is confident of his spee.
Being stronger≠faster. Data Urek only said that he would lose in a battle Against data zahard. not that he was slower.

+ Data Urek and Urek in general, seems to be faster of anyone that have been shown. Even remarking that he was damn slow compared to real Urek, everything about Urek seems to be speed. His shinsu is SoL and all. He should be the only one to scale to his own speed, him and Current Urek+ (Adult Family head via Scaling to adult Urek)with a "Faster than his Data self"

Other than That, Rankers snd above should be High Hypersonic+ And seem pretty consistent too.

The speed of Quant w/o Shinsoo has a lowball of Supersonic+, and a highball of High Hypersonic+. Using shinsoo he should be much faster, and average Rankers in general should be at least the speed of Quant w/o Shinsoo.

Scaling from Highball Quant+Upscaling to Data Zahard Who is mach 40~ assuming my calc is right, ofc, i could be wrong.

• Min Time for Brain Processing: 304.4472937 / 0.02 = ~15,222.365 m/s = ~Mach 44.38 = High Hypersonic
• Escape Reflex of a Cockroach: 304.4472937 / 0.011 = ~28,691 m/s = ~Mach 83.65 = High Hypersonic+

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@MiguelABarrios

Okay, first what you're talking about is headcanon, Data Urek himself stated that he is unable to face Data Zahard, and if that was just about strength, then pretty much what Data Urek had to do was outsped Data Zahard and get what he wanted from the beginning, the mirror and then erase himself, but he never managed to achieve that goal, all because of the superiority of Data Zahard over Data Urek in all categories, including speed.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Why do we even scale Data Urek speed to others?He never got tsgged by a single attack, and is confident of his spee.
Being stronger≠faster. Data Urek only said that he would lose in a battle Against data zahard. not that he was slower.

+ Data Urek and Urek in general, seems to be faster of anyone that have been shown. Even remarking that he was damn slow compared to real Urek, everything about Urek seems to be speed. His shinsu is SoL and all. He should be the only one to scale to his own speed, him and Current Urek+ (Adult Family head via Scaling to adult Urek)with a "Faster than his Data self"

First- Technically speaking if your mass stays the same then being stronger does mean you're faster, since you can output a greater force to move your mass. It's just that this relationship can output wonky results that fiction almost never reflects because physics is weird, which is why VsBattleWiki doesn't accept kinetic energy being used for speed feats. However, my question about Current Urek's speed doesn't involve Kinetic Energy, it asks if Urek's percentage logic can be applied.

Second- Enryu already covered the as I was typing this comment, so nevermind.

Third- You say that it doesn't make sense to scale Data Urek to others except for Real Urek since Urek's all about speed (which itself is debatable), but also scale Real Urek to the Family Heads in the same sentence. Those two lines of logic are mutually exclusive, you can't have both.

Other than That, Rankers snd above should be High Hypersonic+ And seem pretty consistent too.

Scaling from Highball Quant+Upscaling to Data Zahard Who is mach 40~ assuming my calc is right, ofc, i could be wrong.

Agreed; ignoring Urek stuff, Ranker's being High Hypersonic+ makes sense. Quant crossing the bridge wasn't able to use shinsoo, and Data Urek zipping up the arena just came out of a fight with Bam (considering that both Bam and Data Zahard were knocked out at the end of their fight, it's likely that Data Zahard was similarly as tired as Bam was), so both of their true speeds should break into High Hypersonic+ territory.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@ElajRuengies

Regarding the speed percentages, I will give my veridict, this cannot be applied unless Urek himself specified that it was about speed percentages, as he says about percentages of strength in his encounters with Hell Joe and Karaka (10% and 1%), then, this cannot be used unfortunately

 

[ElajRuengies]

@ElajRuengies

Regarding the speed percentages, I will give my veridict, this cannot be applied unless Urek himself specified that it was about speed percentages, as he says about percentages of strength in his encounters with Hell Joe and Karaka (10% and 1%), then, this cannot be used unfortunately

Hm, I want to wait for more opinions, but I'll keep that in mind. Looks like I'll have to prepare to calculate the Ship On-Warp feat, although we'll be missing a speed feat for non-Top 300 High Rankers

 

[Antvasima]

So is there anything else that we can do here before the calculations blog has been evaluated?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I was summoned here, what is being asked of me?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. We need this evaluated:

Khun Clears the Crown Room Speed Calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ElajRuengies]

And also this one by @MiguelABarrios :

Data Zahard Speed

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ElajRuengies]

So is there anything else that we can do here before the calculations blog has been evaluated?

Again, no not really, I want at least three OKs for the arguments against the Relativistic and MHS feats before I make the calc-blogs for Ranker and High Ranker speeds, and I have two-ish (Enryu, and Ant who's going with what Enryu says I think)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

 

[Ped2018]

Reading this i have to disagree on your point about Light Speed

1-The isn't Word of God, the whole profile was written from the Ranker Association POV, and they know NOTHING irregulars, they never even saw a irregular fighting, so this thing about Urek only attacking ata the speed of light it's not true at all

2-Even if this was a WOG statement (which is not), this was written about 10 years ago, SIU didn't knew the exact how strong or fast a character that was gonna appear much later in the history was

And that's it, i'm gonna read the others thing later to see if i agree with it

 

[ElajRuengies]

Reading this i have to disagree on your point about Light Speed

1-The isn't Word of God, the whole profile was written from the Ranker Association POV, and they know NOTHING irregulars, they never even saw a irregular fighting, so this thing about Urek only attacking ata the speed of light it's not true at all

2-Even if this was a WOG statement (which is not), this was written about 10 years ago, SIU didn't knew the exact how strong or fast a character that was gonna appear much later in the history was

And that's it, i'm gonna read the others thing later to see if i agree with it

While it's true that it's written from the Ranker Association's POV, as evidenced by how the profiles do not know why Enryu killed a Guardian, or anything about Phantaminum, it's wrong to say that they've never seen any irregulars fight, and the reason why is specifically because of Urek. While Phanta and Enryu are utter mysteries, Urek is straight up famous/infamous for his exploits while climbing the Tower, and he has been seen fighting by many accounts.

People who have seen Urek Mazino in combat have evaluated his combat style as 'Aggressive, ferocious and fast. But tremendously beautiful.'

He is also acquainted with another princess, Yuri, and it is because he was one of the person to plant 'Walhaiksong'. Yuri said this of him, "He's the best to fight together, but the worst to live with."

During his climb, Urek took Arie Hon's special test on the 100th Floor; he task was for Urek to endure his attacks for 10 minutes, but Urek fought evenly and passed Arie Hon's special test causing him to become the most famous Ranker in the Tower as a result.

Not to mention that one of his most memey incidents was when he broke into the Rankings Administration Office-

There was a time when Urek, who had a complaint about his rank being lower than Phantaminum's, broke into the Ranking Administration Office, captured Robert Aisand and threatened him to raise his rank. To Urek, who asked, "Have you ever seen me fight Phantaminum?" Aisand answered briefly and without hesitation "You will be the loser". Urek Mazino, shocked, could do nothing but go home bitterly. As a result of this incident, a number of jokes about Mazino emerged and nicknames like Urek Ma-Loser and Loser Mazino appeared. This climaxed into the production of comic strips featuring the incident which Baek Ryun said would "prove quite useful in the treatment of chronic depression". It appears that Urek has managed to get over this incident.

Out of every irregular out there, Urek Mazino is literally the last one you could say that the Rankings Office knows nothing about. Their knowledge of Urek is solid enough for the Lightspeed Attack Speed feat to be used.

As for that second point; this isn't something like the number of Princesses that come from one of the 10 Great Families, or Baylord Yama's original backstory; which are things that get altered due to changes and expansions in the story- this is a factoid related to half of a nickname. It's unlikely that it's be important enough to be retconned.

 

[Ped2018]

And this is enough for you to say that this is their limit?

 

[ElajRuengies]

And this is enough for you to say that this is their limit?

Who's limit? This is about Urek's attack speed.

Oh wait- (scrolling back up) are you talking about Enryu saying-

Honestly, I agree and it makes sense that the Relativistic speed for anyone who scales to it currently is removed. it is very likely that the Top Tiers (Zahard, 10 Family Heads, Arlen, V and Urek) and God Tiers (Enryu and Floor Guardians) are the only ones that potentially could be the characters with a Relativistic feat or above in the future, making Data Urek's feat look like an outlier.

-that?

Because if so then I don't really have any opinions on that.
I mean, it does sound like speculation, and if Urek's percentages don't apply to speed then there isn't anything backing it up either, but there's also nothing that counters it so... It's in the air for now.

 

[Ped2018]

Who's limit? This is about Urek's attack speed.

OH, i thought you were trying to say that Urek limit is speed of light, but i still don't agree changing the stats of various characters just from a statement about charcters that are not even trust-worthy