Tourney match 5 Diend vs Ashen one.

[IxaSaga2]

What stopping Diend from summoning riders that can fly and attack him there? Diend can also summon Agito or Hibiki to make himself be able cling onto them and fly up.

 

[BERRIES555]

Diend's Dimension Blast is able to one shot people who he struggles to even damage. That being said, officially, Diend's stronger than Tsukasa, who fought Exceeded Gills. Gills scales to Shining Agito who killed to El of Water, who created a 10 GigaTon storm. AP's close but Diend probably takes it when we include the Dimension Blast.

How far are they from each other? Diend usually lets his summons fight up close but always keeps a distance from himself and his opponent and only really stepping in when he has an opening.

And are we allowed to go off profile? Kamen Rider Specs came out like, a week ago and some new information just came out. Kamen Rider Kiva's Dogga Form has sight based petrification with the Dogga Hammer and his Darkness Moonbreak has EE.

 

[SamanPatou]

First, does Diend's summoning ability have a limit? Like a set number of cards or it can go on forever summoning other Riders, regardless of how many times they get defeated?
Currently Ashen upscales a bit from 25 gigatons, so it should be 2.5-3X, if we take in account game mechanics, otherwise it should be even higher, like even 5X, since he is on the verge of low 6-B or more. Seeing your scaling chain though, and excluding game mechanics and not being aware of how much the difference is between these Kamen Riders, the difference might be lower, like 2 o 1.5X maybe.
Is there a way to determine the durability of the characters killled by the dimension blast? You think that it is enough to fill the gap?
And how in character hs for the summoned Kamens to use their powers? Magi in a previous message said that they act differently from the real counterparts. Petrification isn't a problem, Ashen resists it, but EE might be.
Fighting close up isn't a wise decision, since Ashen is more skilled, very used to fight groups of enemies, better equipped, superior in durability and AP (even though the gap can be closer) and every Kamen killed would always turn into souls that it absorbs to fuel its projectiles and possibly restore its health or become its ally, depending on what it decides to use.
Taking in account everything that I said in the previous messages, I'm still leaning towards Ashen, but it might change depending on the future arguments.

 

[Phoenks]

Ashen FRA

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Shouldn't Ashen due to versality and AP advantage?.

 

[BERRIES555]

Diend can summon as much riders as he wants, but in character, he uses 2-4 riders at a time.

Dimension Blast can one shot people who either scales to Diend or people he has a hard time damaging. Considering how they're ap and durability are close, Dimension Blast would either cause a ton of damage or kill him.

Diend doesn't just summon other riders, he also uses their Final Form Ride. FFR allows Diend to use the riders he summons to use as weapons. A rider that we would use against Ashen would likely be Faiz. It's stated though Rider Specs, the Faiz Edge, Shot and Pointer is capable of deconstruction and turn things to ashes. Final Form Faiz, which is essentially a giant gun, is able to turn three Orphanochs into ashes. Does Ashen resist deconstruction?

But yeah, Ashen would be more skilled and couldn't easily beat riders like Knight and Ixa but that just gives Diend more of a reason to keep away. If Ashen tries to turn Diend's summons against him, Diend could change them to their FFR and use them as weapons.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, I wouldn't say that a difference of 2.5X and possibly more is exactly close, especially if Ashen can power up its stats and reduce the damage received (and it's a pretty common thing to do before or at the start of a battle in DS). But I take note that the dimension blast would deal massive or at least good damage, in case it hits Ashen directly. How many times the dimension blast can be fired? Turning the Riders into weapons though would leave Diend open, but the deconstruction beams are surely a threat. These beams are stated to have decontructive properties or they just turn enemies into ashes due to heat or the power of the blast? And are they homing like his normal weapon?
Fighting Ashen one on one isn't a wise decision, but since Diend is invisible, Ashen would raise his guard and rely on homing and AoE attacks and/or turn invisible and silent
On a situation like that, where both are invisible and with homing attacks, the victory on the long run would go to Ashen due to his better ability to prolong the battle with better stats, or to Diend if those weapons have decontructive and homing properties.
I think that we can drop the argument on the summoned Riders, since we established that they would just die easily after short time and become food or allies of Ashen, forcing Diend to switch tactic, right?

I'm assuming that speed is equalized

 

[BERRIES555]

Diend would usually line up his opponents with his summons for a clear shot with the Dimension Blast. Turning his summons into weapons won't leave him open. He actually shoots his summons to turn then into weapons, they'll soon just move to where Diend is.



(Go to 3:21)

These videos show that Faiz's attacks can turn people to ashes. The second video actually skips the scene where the gun shoots out a cone to told the enemies in place and then firing the laser. And no, these attacks don't home in on the target but is Ashen get's hit by the cone, he'll get hit by the laser. It's also worth to mention that the other Faiz riders, Kaixa and Delta also have deconstruction but unlike Faiz, they use ranged weapons. And Kaixa can even momentarily paralyze people to either go with deconstruction or Dimension Blast.

And here's the translation from the Rider Spec
Crimson Cross: The metal fibers of Solfoam turn red due to the photon blood that runs around the whole body. Since the suit itself has energy comparable to that of Faiz Edge's medium mode, it is possible to incinerate a normal Orphnoch just by touching it. The inside of the suit is coated with a cooling fiber substance and coolant substance to protect the wearer. (全身を駆け巡るフォトンブラッドにより、ソルフォームの金属繊維が赤に変色。スーツ自体がファイズエッジのミディアムモードに匹敵するエネルギーを帯びているため、並のオルフェノクであれば、触れただけで灰化させることが可能。スーツ内部には冷却繊維物質、クーラントサブスタンスがコーティングされており、装着者を保護している。)
Translation's iffy

Diend's invisibility effects his summons as well, not just him.

For the most part, yes. Summons that go up close will do more harm than good. But Diend's ranged summons would be useful, especially if all of them are invisible.

 

[SamanPatou]

I didn't know that all the summons are invisible, that changes the situation a bit.
If the translation is correct, the enemy is turned to ash due to the heat of the weapon and the great energy, so it isn't deconstruction. Ashen's durability, boosts and resistance to fire should help him taking the hit
With left open I mean that he would have be alone fighting Ashen, which would focus only on him.
Ashen too has ranged weapons and some summons, and for how much useful those weapons are, I don't see them as a guaranteed hit, since they're not homing, Ashen is good at avoiding hits etc...
At this point, I don't really know who would win, son I'll wait for inputs from other users

 

[BERRIES555]

Don't think it's fire manipulation. The translation's iffy and whenever an Orphnoch dies, blue flames will appear. apper.

 

[SamanPatou]

It may be not fire manipulation, but it seems a heat based energy attack. It also have cooling materials to protect the user.
Anyway, I'll still wait for other people to express further arguments

 

[MagiSinbad]

Let... not uses the Kamen Rider contents that is outside of their profile. While i do admit they are all outdated because of the CRT lockdown, using them here is kinda unfair for other contestants in this tour

First, does Diend's summoning ability have a limit? Like a set number of cards or it can go on forever summoning other Riders, regardless of how many times they get defeated?

Diend can resummon them whenever he like no matter how many time they are defeated. If what you means is how many riders he can summon at a time, it's 4.

is there a way to determine the durability of the characters killled by the dimension blast? You think that it is enough to fill the gap?

All Kamen Riders finishers (which is basically Kamen Riders focusing their power for a single attack) like Diend's Dimension Blast is able to one-shot the opponent comparable to them (Like the finishers in Kamen Rider W for example). While we dont know how powerful it is compare to the riders normal AP, but in versus thread, the wiki has a policy about One-Shot is that the attack need to be 7.5 times stronger than the opponent's defense to be able to one-shot them. So yeah, we default assume the Kamen Riders finishers are 7.5 time stronger their normal AP unless there is some other source stated otherwise

And how in character hs for the summoned Kamens to use their powers? Magi in a previous message said that they act differently from the real counterparts. Petrification isn't a problem, Ashen resists it, but EE might be.

I actually did a quiet a bit of research about this after you mention it. It turn out that they are still retain their old personality and fighting styles even thought the summons are just copy of the original riders. The clear evidence is when Diend summon Den-O, he show the full personality of the original Den-O.
And...Petrification and EE are off-profiles...

Fighting close up isn't a wise decision, since Ashen is more skilled, very used to fight groups of enemies, better equipped, superior in durability and AP (even though the gap can be closer) and every Kamen killed would always turn into souls that it absorbs to fuel its projectiles and possibly restore its health or become its ally, depending on what it decides to use.

I'm not sure if Ashen One can absorb their souls... The DienDriver (Diend's gun) compoment specs making clear that the summoned riders are 2 dimensional energies given form in 3-D body.

• Neo Dimension Barrel (ネオディメンションバレル Neo Dimenshon Bareru) - The main body. A built in secret stone, Trickster (トリックスター Torikkusutā), is responsible for powering the Neo Diendriver and materializing Diend's suit. A machine within converts the two-dimensional energies sealed within a Rider Card into three-dimensional physical entities (such as armor and weapons).

Which would give the riders summoned by Diend type 2 inorganic physiology for being made up masses of 2-D energy.

Diend's invisibility effects his summons as well, not just him.

Wait, what ? I have never seen Diend's invisibility is used upon his summons. When did he do that ?

Would like to reply more, but it's "time out" on my side

 

[BERRIES555]

(Go to 1:00)

This is Diend using Invisible and his summons disappearing immediately after. in 2:30, when Geiz beats the summon of Birth and Accel, they dissapear differently than they do when Diend uses invisible.

 

[SamanPatou]

So, according only to what's written in the profile, we have to exclude Faiz and the cannon thing, petrifiying and existence erasure.
And the summoned Kamen doesn't have souls, and I'm not even sure if they have a "life force" to absorb, since they are made of energy.
We have to determine if they can turn invisible or not, even if it isn't listed on the profile

 

[BERRIES555]

Well, the Faiz Cannon can still be used, it's just that we won't be including any potential deconstruction since it's off profile. Same with Kiva's petrification and EE.
Personally, I'd say that Diend can turn his summons invisible since they disappear differently to when they are defeated. I'll have to ask the other KR supporters when I have time.

 

[Randomlamdom]

All Kamen Riders finishers (which is basically Kamen Riders focusing their power for a single attack) like Diend's Dimension Blast is able to one-shot the opponent comparable to them (Like the finishers in Kamen Rider W for example). While we dont know how powerful it is compare to the riders normal AP, but in versus thread, the wiki has a policy about One-Shot is that the attack need to be 7.5 times stronger than the opponent's defense to be able to one-shot them. So yeah, we default assume the Kamen Riders finishers are 7.5 time stronger their normal AP unless there is some other source stated otherwise

Also going by that same page: "This gap is strictly for versus debating purposes, and will not apply when attempting to derive the attack potency of a character based on a feat of one-shotting another character in his or her verse."
So it'd just be unquantifiably stronger i'm pretty sure

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Pretty much.

 

[BERRIES555]

Well, even then, the Dimension Blast would do a lot of damage to Ashen considering how their AP and durability's closer now. Ashen wouldn't be able to absorb Diend's summons anymore since they're 2D energy given a 3D form. If Ashen tries to attack Diend directly, he could use Invisible or Illusion, or maybe even both if he sees Ashen as such a big threat. Invisible would allow not only Diend, but also his summons to disappear and Illusion lets Diend to create 5 clones.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Also going by that same page: "This gap is strictly for versus debating purposes, and will not apply when attempting to derive the attack potency of a character based on a feat of one-shotting another character in his or her verse."
So it'd just be unquantifiably stronger i'm pretty sure

Sorry for the late reply
Well yes. That's why we strictly to uses it only in VS threads, not a way to upgrade the characters in CRTs. Because if the said finishers somehow got deflected back to the Kamen Riders (in versus threads) , they will be the ones who get one-shotted.

But that could be wrong. Tell me if this doesnt meet with Wiki's policy

 

[MagiSinbad]

Welp, even if Dimension Blast isnt enough to finish Ashen One. Diend can still goes with Cross-Attack where he summons 2 other Gun-user riders like Delta and Drake to perform the finishers along with him. Since the summons are all comparable to Diend, the damage of finisher will be tripled

EDIT : My mistake, only the 2 summons are performing the finishers, not Diend.

 

[SamanPatou]

Are we sure that the summons are invisible too? Or it is a speculation based on the fact that they disappeared differently in that video?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Are we sure that the summons are invisible too? Or it is a speculation based on the fact that they disappeared differently in that video?

It's his speculation from what I can tell.

 

[SamanPatou]

So, quick summary.
No petrification, EE, deconstruction, invisible summons
Kamens are made of 2-D energy, so no soul absorption
Ashen is at least 2.5X Diend in AP and Durability, likely higher because game shenanigans with the optional bosses
Cross Attack and Dimension Blast are 7.5X Diend's AP due to one-shot rules
Here I might be wrong, but the summons retain their original personality but prefer close combat instead of using their haxes like BFR, right?

Other question: If Diend turns the summoned Riders into weapons, can he summon even more Riders (exceding the limit of 4)? (However, this wouldn't change my final vote)

With that said, and please don't hate me, I still think that Ashen wins more times than not.
My point goes back to the start, where Ashen can easily deal with the summons due to his ability in combat, versatility, stats and experience with multiple enemies.
Stuff about stamina, multiple ways of healing, restore magic, becoming invisible, AoE, buffs, homing attacks, mind manip (if the brainwashed summons are turned into weapons and they can not be replaced by others in the meanwhile, it means that Ashen has less enemies to keep on with) are still valid
Dimensional Blast and other finishers are surely fearsome, but as the name says (and I think) they aren't the first things to go with, meaning that Diend and other Kamens would use them after some time. I see Ashen using his buffs in the meanwhile, since it's a very common thing, to expand his already present stats advantage, and he will not fool around waiting for more Riders to be summoned or attacks being prepared (I mean, summoning a Rider and preparing a finisher takes at least a minimum of time, it's not instant). Fighting invisible enemies and dodging powerful attacks are things that Ashen has already dealth with more than one time, and Diend will sure get tired faster than him. And if Ashen goes invisible and silent, Diend then has the same problem.

Overall, I still think that Ashen would win more times than not

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with SamanPatou. Ashen One FRA.

 

[00potato]

This is going well. I couldn’t add more matches because I was a bit busy, I will continue tonight.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Ashen One FRA

 

[BERRIES555]

You most likely not believe me when I say this, but Kamen Rider's actually use their Finishers very early on in the fight but he doesn't lead with Dimension Blast. He'd probably use his summons to line up the Dimension Blast to hit his targets. I'm pretty sure it takes like 2~ to fire but yeah, considering how Ashen's main thing is dodging, more time than not he'll just roll out.

If Diend has 4 summons on the field and turns one into a weapon, I don't think he can summon anymore since his hands are literally full. But that doesn't mean he can't summon anymore, it just that he'll be occupied with holding a bow or a giant cannon. But he has shown to be able to insert cards in the DienDriver even when holding the Faiz Blaster.

They do retain the same personality of the original rider. But if it's in character for a Rider to do a hax, I don't see why they wouldn't do it. Diend would most likely summon Ixa, Knight and Faiz but once he realizes that Ashen could pretty easily take these guys down, he'd go with more ranged Riders like Delta, Kuuga Pegasus Form, G3-X and G4. All of which fight at a range and Delta can even momentarily stop Ashen in place. Diend also can clone himself 5-6 times.

Is it okay if you show a video of Ashen fighting invisible enemies? I haven't play Dark Souls and just wonder what it would look like compared to Invisible. Since Diend fought Woz in his Kikai form and he wasn't able to detect Diend when he went invisible. And Woz had this:

• Indication Track Eye Kikai (インジケーショントラックアイ・キカイ Injikēshon Torakku Ai Kikai) - The visor which spells out 'Kikai'. It grants Woz a 270° viewing angle. Additionally, due to Kamen Rider Kikai's abilities, the Indication Track Eye Shinobi is made of a heavy toughness lens, securing visibility even in unfavorable conditions and environments. built-in siren and light system is added, and has a role of emitting warnings to surroundings with sound and light.

Dunno if that changes anything, just wanted to point it out.

 

[SamanPatou]

Why wouldn't I believe you? You are the one who knows Kamen Rider here, not me.
Regarding the invisible enemies:

This boss (Sister Freide) can become invisible at times (examples at 2.16, 2.36, 3.04 and further, but it's the same) and you keep track of her by hearing her movements. Then there are the Irithyllian Slaves, which, in the assassin variation, can become partially our truly invisible to attack you, Unfortunately, I can't find a video of them. Finally, since invasions are canon, there's a very small chance that the Ashen has faced an enemy who employed invisibility, but that's just a support thing.
Overall none of them are comparable to what Diend does, but this is to confirm that Ashen isn't new to invisible foes.
The Indication Track Eye might just be fooled byt he fact that it can't see an invisible enemy, but I didn't understand if the syren warns you when something, like an object or a person, is near. That also should be covered in the profile, btw.

However, I've been thinking that, with the CRTs open and some abilities and informations missing from Diend's profile and some issue with Ashen's 6-C key, if would be better to pause (or cancel, if we want) this match. I'm saying that because it would be a shame declaring a winner due to things that aren't in the profiles but might be added/removed/revised in the "near future".

 

[Nicetoderp]

The match has gone on for too long in this tourney. There has been a massive KR Revision and rewords Riders old profiles for more details of their abilities.

For now though, Ashen One Fra

 

[00potato]

Ash 4-5
Diend 1-2?

 

[SamanPatou]

The fact that this has been long isn't necessarily bad, I had fun debating the match and exploring the possibilities

 

[00potato]

As long as that time is spent debating rather than just waiting for votes(Like certain other threads.), it is good. Wait since Niceto added Diend, and votes for Ash, Ash moves on by my rules. I guess he wins. No more waiting.

 

[BERRIES555]

@SamanPatou

Yeah, this was actually fun since Diend hasn't really be used at all. And Nice is right, KR's going in a massive revision which would give Dined a few more powers. I'll be voting for Ashen as well.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Ashen One FRA, anyway.

By the way, fandom_00potato you should remember to link tags to each characters and verse too.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Sorry for the late reply (again)
i'm totally cool with Ashen One win this. But i still want to answer some questions

Here I might be wrong, but the summons retain their original personality but prefer close combat instead of using their haxes like BFR, right?

Depend on which riders tbh, all of them are unique from each other. While some can fight CQC honorably as a fighter, other can be like this guy who just love to spam his magical circle.

Dimensional Blast and other finishers are surely fearsome, but as the name says (and I think) they aren't the first things to go with, meaning that Diend and other Kamens would use them after some time

Eh, actually, the Kamen Rider fanbase just call them finisher generally. Otherwise we dont know how to call the Hissatsugi (必殺技 : Techniches that definitely will kill). Even though the said finishers are the Kamen Rider trump cards, they can be used right at the start of the battle. Most occasionally is when they realize how stronger the opponents are compare to them. If you cant finish them with your finisher, then better uses it right away to reduce the opponent's defense and stamina to make opening for later attack

However, I've been thinking that, with the CRTs open and some abilities and informations missing from Diend's profile and some issue with Ashen's 6-C key, if would be better to pause (or cancel, if we want) this match. I'm saying that because it would be a shame declaring a winner due to things that aren't in the profiles but might be added/removed/revised in the "near future".

Eh...giving that Diend's fighting style is summoning the riders to do his works. A fully updated Diend would requires massive update for 74 Kamen Rider pages, not to mention most of his summons dont have profiles... So yeah, i argree that we can just conclude this match here rather than pause it for several months

 

[00potato]

Ash moves on since Nice votes for him.

 

[J.J._Chambers]

Ashen One FRA

 

[00potato]

Done for now.
You can check for yourself the line up. You can also see the yet to be done matches, remember to argue and vote for those.

 

[00potato]

Wait I meant to put that in the main thread, I was referring to the challonge