Touhou's UES + More Hax

[Malomtek]

This is an argument on the basis of "it doesn't seem like characters should have these abilities, therefore they don't". You want people to take your arguments seriously? Start using some actual god damn evidence. We're reaching ******* Youtube comments levels of shitty debating now.

I seriously think you need to calm down. I don't really care if you personally "take me seriously" or not, especially since I know you don't, but I just want to note how you continually misrepresent what I actually said and build strawmen of my positions. In that instance, I wasn't arguing which and whatever powers youkais should or shouldn't have by default, I was commenting on the inherent absurdity of youkai supposedly being more intrinsically "haxed" than literal deities despite all evidence and portrayals to the contrary.

Imagine not even reading your own ******* posts.

I don't really consider any of what you just bolded to be "regular interactions with the world."

And imagine not even reading staff member posts.

That doesn't contradict anything I've actually said.

Remind me again why I should take you seriously?

Again, I don't care if you "take me seriously" or not, especially since we both know you don't take me seriously regardless.

Also, if control of these layers can be done via physical attacks or magic alone, then why did the scan only mention youkai, when these supposed parameters would apply to the entire verse? If an ability is as universal as you claim it to be, then where is the evidence? Don't answer that, I already know it doesn't ******* exist, and even if it did, you wouldn't provide it.

And now you're misrepresenting everything I said, and even the text itself. I never said that they control "these layers" in themselves, I said that they control aspects of the physical and mental layers of the world. Aspects, as in, parts, portions. Youkai don't "control the world" by manipulating the physical and mental layers directly, as units, youkai "control the world" by manipulating parts of the physical and mental layers at any given time.

And the scan only mentioned youkai because presumably youkai were more relevant to the context of the topic being discussed in that scan. It's not that difficult to decipher.

I never said that "control of the world through physical and mental layers" is some "universal" thing, as far as you're interpreting it. I only ever assumed that magicians, youkai, hermits, and deities (of all varieties, including celestials and buddhas) can manipulate aspects of the physical or mental layers of reality at any given time. Whatever those aspects may be might never be precisely the same between any two users of these planes of existence.

Oh good, you mean like controlling the world through the laws of gravity and physics? You know, things that have been explicitly stated to be a part of the physical layer? Which is one of the layers youkai are explicitly stated to control the world through? So by your own logic, this statement is fine to use, so thanks!

Stop misrepresenting my statements like this. It just makes you look disingenuous and honestly quite desperate.

The laws of physics and gravity are only examples of what are part of the physical layer, and neither of which are anything that youkai manipulate by default by "controlling the world through the physical and mental layers". There is no reason to assume that any given youkai can manipulate either without direct confirmation that said given, individual youkai can.

Like I said before, we cannot definitively determine the full extent of what things every layer encompasses, nor can we determine to what degree youkai have these abilities, which abilities should be excluded, which youkai should get what, etc. Hence why I suggested a 'possibly' rating for these abilities. If you are unable to shift your argument to adjust to new proposals and continue to insist on getting your downgrades at any cost, then please kindly shut up and go bother another verse.

Wow.

We've been here before. Everyone can do things that operate on these layers; these are the laws of reality itself we're talking about here, after all. But only youkai have a statement implying that their degree of control of these layers is beyond everyone else's.

Nothing about that statement implies that a youkai's degree of control over either the physical or mental layers of reality is intrinsically greater than that of a human magician's, let alone any other type of being in Touhou. And you're seemingly conflating special abilities performed through the physical and mental layers (which I already gave examples for) with things such as walking and thinking, which I'd say is rather irrational and baseless.

Nowhere did Rinnosuke say that humans, gods, hermits, or whoever else can control the world through these layers. Only youkai. If we use your interpretation, it would be in direct conflict with the information in the text, none of which backs up what you're saying. If there is proof, show me. If not, shut up.

Didn't we just go through entire threads talking about hermits absorbing "infinite" spacetimes and creating "infinitely expanding" worlds and a moon princess creating an "infinite" corridor and a divine spirit creating magic balls that turn collective belief into reality? How is any of that not just as much "world-controlling" as anything any youkai has ever done?

The part I bolded is just....

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I will get to this tomorrow. I have a life outside of this, you know.

As far as I can tell from your arguments though, you have no idea what you're talking about. As usual.

I've already made nearly half the posts in this thread, I have real life things to attend to, I really don't feel like dealing with another pointless wall of text again, and there are other Touhou supporters who are just as, if not more, knowledgeable than I am. If any of them wish to debate on my behalf, please do so, because I cannot keep this up indefinitely.

I will again ask for @Hecatia_Gaming and @OnsokunoSonic's opinions, since this is a topic they have both covered in the past and likely know more about it than I do. I don't expect them to be nearly as willing to engage every single argument you put forth however, so don't expect your stonewalling to be quite as effective.

Good night.

 

[Promestein]

If youkai are manipulating some but not all of the fundamental aspects of these layers, how exactly do we pick which abilities to include and exclude? How do we determine which youkai gets what? How do we decide which youkai get these abilities anyways, since the statement says most youkai and not all? There's no way to pick and choose what to leave out that wouldn't be entirely based in speculation. We can't just shrug this off as a non-ability either, but I've yet to see any alternate proposals. Perhaps a likely or possibly rating for these abilities? I'm open to alternate suggestions here, but I would at least need to see those suggestions first.

We give them what they show. Their powers fall under one or both layers, depending on the ability; Suika's certainly allows her to interact with both to some degree.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's... not how physiology works. If a species is stated or implied to have an ability, then they should be given that ability. I don't recall every single demon in DMC showing immersion, shapeshifting, or soul manipulation, but we know it's a species-specific trait, so they all have those abilities.

Youkai are implied to have these abilities; the issue here is that it's a majority of youkai, not all of them, and we can't effectively determine who's being exlcuded, as well as not knowing to which extent each youkai has these abilities.

And the idea that all of their powers fall under layer manipulation is just blatantly wrong. It would imply that all magical or physical abilities are due to controlling the world through the layers of reality, which contradicts the specificity of Rinnosuke's statement, which only mentions youkai. If 'controlling the world through the physical and mental layers' is really just a fancy way of saying 'can use magic', then where is that stated or implied in the text?

If we went with your interpretation, virtually no youkai would have these abilities... which directly contradicts the text, which says most youkai.

We have to acknowledge that these abilities exist on a large scale to some extent, otherwise it kinda defeats the of being a power indexing wiki.

I will maintain that the most reasonable option for these abilities is a 'possibly' rating, unless a character shows a specific ability on their own terms, in which case they should just have the ability + whatever justification exists for it (like Suika's mind/soul manip).

Also upon further thought, I'm probably gonna avoid responding to Mal's post for the sake of my own sanity.

 

[Promestein]

See, that's the issue. Where does it make it unambiguously clear that physics manipulation is a universal ability for youkai? They're talking about the mechanics of the setting, they're not gonna just say "they can use magic" - they're going in depth here. What I read is that they're able to enact their powers through the manipulation of the physical and mental layers, not that every single youkai manipulates physics and/or gravity specifically to do so.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I disagree with the equating of magical powers to control through these layers. All youkai have magical energy connected to their life force; this is a universal trait that every youkai has. But Rinnosuke's statement only mentions most youkai. So there is a clear disconnect between magic and control of the world through these layers, because one is universal, and the other is not. If only most youkai can enact their abilities via these layers, then that would imply that many of them have no magical abilities at all, which is just plain wrong since they are magical by their very nature (and it's not like we've ever seen a youkai without supernatural abilities anyways).

I agree with you that layer control is not a universal ability for youkai; it only applies to a majority. We have no means of determining who it doesn't apply to, though. I'm fine with removing the explicitness of the justification currently on youkai profiles, we just need an alternative that mentions the existence of these abilities and the vagueness of it.

 

[Malomtek]

I disagree with the equating of magical powers to control through these layers. All youkai have magical energy connected to their life force; this is a universal trait that every youkai has.

But can they all use that magical energy "properly", as in a fight? That's the rub here. After all, your own scans say that magic and sorcery is a part of the "mental layer", so it would be reasonable to assume that it's this "magical youkai life-force energy" that they use as a source of "spiritual power" for "controlling the world through both the physical and mental layers". Those that aren't able to "control the world through both the physical and mental layers" simply aren't able to use their innate magical life-force energy "properly".

It's like the difference between a "peak human" fighter, and anyone relatively skilled in the usage of ki in Dragon Ball.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

ahem

Last time I'll say it. Don't expect further interaction after this.

 

[Malomtek]

ahem

Last time I'll say it. Don't expect further interaction after this.

Great.

Anyway, concession accepted.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

"Heck, you can probably even just ignore arguments entirely until they're backed up with scans. It's that simple."

Following the advice given to us by a thread moderator isn't a concession, Mal.

Now, please stop giving off the impression that you're passive aggressively baiting people. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, because I'm hoping that you're not trying to poke a sleeping lion, just so that you can cry that you've been bitten later.

We all must try to be better.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thank you.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

However, his point seems reasonable, as an outsider that doesn't know a thing about this verse. Are they all shown or implied to possess those abilities? Seems like a simple question to answer if it's legit.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They are implied, yes. My point is that because it's impossible to determine which youkai can control the world through the physical and mental layers and which can't, we should leave such abilities as 'possibly' ratings.

Manipulating these layers cannot logically just be achieved by magic use, since we don't have statements suggesting non-youkai magic users control these layers. Additionally, all youkai should reasonably be capable of using magic, while controlling the world through the layers of reality is only attributed to most, not all.

Magic =/= layer control.

 

[Malomtek]

See, that's the issue. Where does it make it unambiguously clear that physics manipulation is a universal ability for youkai? They're talking about the mechanics of the setting, they're not gonna just say "they can use magic" - they're going in depth here. What I read is that they're able to enact their powers through the manipulation of the physical and mental layers, not that every single youkai manipulates physics and/or gravity specifically to do so.

@Promestein I believe that you can go ahead and reject this hax proposal, and it's clear that even the previously approved "default haxes" (gravity and physics manipulation) need to be removed. The other side has not shown a near-complete inability to debate civilly, without recourse to rude comments, which is also indicative of the quality of their main argument: an extreme and wildly unsupported interpretation of a single scan.

"Heck, you can probably even just ignore arguments entirely until they're backed up with scans. It's that simple."

Following the advice given to us by a thread moderator isn't a concession, Mal.

Now, please stop giving off the impression that you're passive aggressively baiting people. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, because I'm hoping that you're not trying to poke a sleeping lion, just so that you can cry that you've been bitten later.

We all must try to be better.

So what scans do I need to show that prove the negation of the assertion that (for example) Hong Meiling has gravity, physics, mind, and soul manipulation by default? Do I just need to show a scan of Hong Meiling not doing any of that?

It's not "passive aggressively baiting" when the other side has basically shown nothing but hostility towards simple questioning.

 

[Malomtek]

They are implied, yes. My point is that because it's impossible to determine which youkai can control the world through the physical and mental layers and which can't, we should leave such abilities as 'possibly' ratings.

Manipulating these layers cannot logically just be achieved by magic use, since we don't have statements suggesting non-youkai magic users control these layers. Additionally, all youkai should reasonably be capable of using magic, while controlling the world through the layers of reality is only attributed to most, not all.

Magic =/= layer control.

And it's literally irrelevant what specific methods they use to do this "physical/mental layer world-control". If they have not shown gravity, physics, mind, or soul manipulation through magic, qi, innate ability, or literally any other mechanism, they shouldn't just be granted those powers just because. I'm sure @LephyrTheRevanchist can understand this perfectly.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And it's literally irrelevant what specific methods they use to do this "physical/mental layer world-control". If they have not shown gravity, physics, mind, or soul manipulation through magic, qi, innate ability, or literally any other mechanism, they shouldn't just be granted those powers just because. I'm sure @LephyrTheRevanchist can understand this perfectly.

Well, if these abilities are inherent to the UES they employ (and having read the evidence provided, it seems like it?), then I would agree that they should have it. Quite literally because they are aspects of said layer, if I'm not mistaken.

It's even stated that they outright control the physical and mental and go on to explain what these things entail, so to me it seems the abilities should be applied.

Then again, I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so I don't know what it's used to contest it. But at the very least, given my lsck of knowledge on the verse, if those statements are literal... Yeah, these abilities are inherent to controlling the physical and mental layers and anyone that shows the ability to do it (which btw, I assume that what they mean with "most youkai" is all of the ones that can use magic/spirit) should be given them.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Again, a possibly due to their physiology still seems reasonable, since a character who's whole life centers somewhat around dealing with yokai stated that they can affect the layers that encompass said aspects. From an indexing perspective, it seems reasonable

I will again restate that these abilities being non-combat applicable is fine by me. I don't want them to have strong hax, I just want profile accuracy.

And I really don't want us to have to make a physiology page for Touhou yokai either tbh

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And I really don't want us to have to make a physiology page for Touhou yokai either tbh

The worst part? That would honestly be the best, lol.

Or at least make a blog that compiles all evidence to link as an explanation in profiles.

 

[Shmooply]

Count me in for a possibly rating as well.

 

[Shmooply]

Or at least make a blog that compiles all evidence to link as an explanation in profiles.

Already did.
why yes i dont edit my messages how can you tell

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Already did.
why yes i dont edit my messages how can you tell

Excellent then.

For now, I agree with the proposals, ngl. Seems straightforward.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, a possibly rating seems best. Bit iffy on the non-combat applicable part however. Also should clarify that the statements on layers and youkai are technically from Reimu, Rinnosuke is just recalling what she told him. Sorry if that wasn't evident before.

also YOU'LL GET YOUR YOUKAI PHYSIOLOGY PAGE AND LIKE IT GOD DAMN IT >:V

 

[Malomtek]

Well, if these abilities are inherent to the UES they employ (and having read the evidence provided, it seems like it?), then I would agree that they should have it. Quite literally because they are aspects of said layer, if I'm not mistaken.

It's even stated that they outright control the physical and mental and go on to explain what these things entail, so to me it seems the abilities should be applied.

Then again, I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so I don't know what it's used to contest it. But at the very least, given my lsck of knowledge on the verse, if those statements are literal... Yeah, these abilities are inherent to controlling the physical and mental layers and anyone that shows the ability to do it (which btw, I assume that what they mean with "most youkai" is all of the ones that can use magic/spirit) should be given them.

But not all youkai have actually visibly displayed or been clearly stated to have control over those specific aspects of the physical and mental layers. Again, Hong Meiling has never shown any ability to control gravity, physics, mind, or souls in particular through any mechanism, despite her (presumably) using the same physical/mental layer stuff as most other youkai, particularly (as one can reasonably assume) concerning her qi manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Just as a general response and not directed at Malomtek:

Characters don't need to actively show abilities or use them so long as we know that said abilities are inherent to the species. We have physiology pages for this exact reason.

No youkai has ever shown a regeneration feat, yet we still give them regeneration because it's a general ability the species as a whole has.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

But not all youkai have actually visibly displayed or been clearly stated to have control over those specific aspects of the physical and mental layers. Again, Hong Meiling has never shown any ability to control gravity, physics, mind, or souls in particular through any mechanism, despite her (presumably) using the same physical/mental layer stuff as most other youkai, particularly (as one can reasonably assume) concerning her qi manipulation.

They don't have to. At least, not in the specific way you are asking for. Because all of these abilities are the properties of the layers themselves, not the youkai. The youkai are only capable of manipulating the layer in its entirety (or that's what I understood).

All that's needed is for an individual youkai to display the ability to manipulate the layer and they would have the abilities regardless.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, and that's why we're going with the possibly rating. It's not a universally shared trait, just a very common one. Since we don't have a way to weed out the youkai this wouldn't apply to, a possibly rating is the best we can do.

 

[Shmooply]

Not to mention, if we used the whole "but if they don't display or have been clearly stated to do that!!" thing, then that would affect, you guessed it- EVERY physiology page on the wiki.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Not to mention, if we used the whole "but if they don't display or have been clearly stated to do that!!" thing, then that would effect, you guessed it- EVERY physiology page on the wiki.

in some cases I agree with this, btw

But yeah, it is unneeded in this particular case because of what the statements say.

 

[Malomtek]

They don't have to. At least, not in the specific way you are asking for. Because all of these abilities are the properties of the layers themselves, not the youkai. The youkai are only capable of manipulating the layer in its entirety (or that's what I understood).

All that's needed is for an individual youkai to display the ability to manipulate the layer and they would have the abilities regardless.

Well then we have to get into the central crux of this argument then, the statement that "most youkai control the world through the physical and mental layers".

I want you to note that the quote says "through" and not "using" or anything of the sort. As in, the physical and mental layers are merely mediums through which youkai use their magic/qi/innate powers/whatever, mediums that they tap into. The youkai aren't manipulating the physical and mental layers in themselves, even on a localized scale. It's why you still see mind manipulation being considered a specialized thing in Touhou, despite most youkai supposedly already being capable of such. That's why I don't support even a "possibly" rating for giving them gravity, physics, mind, and soul manipulation by default.

Not to mention, if we used the whole "but if they don't display or have been clearly stated to do that!!" thing, then that would affect, you guessed it- EVERY physiology page on the wiki.

I don't know how that would be the case, because any fictional depiction of a "special" physiology is going to have generally very clearly described/defined properties anyway.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Hey, @LephyrTheRevanchist would it be alright to add you under those that agree with the proposals given what you've said?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That reminds me, I should readjust the proposals again.

-Give every youkai 'possibly' soul, mind, gravity, physics, and empathic manipulation
-Give all spell card users magic
-Give all magic users extrasensory perception
-Give the ULiL cast statistics amp

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hey, @LephyrTheRevanchist would it be alright to add you under those that agree with the proposals given what you've said?

Yes.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well then we have to get into the central crux of this argument then, the statement that "most youkai control the world through the physical and mental layers".

I want you to note that the quote says "through" and not "using" or anything of the sort. As in, the physical and mental layers are merely mediums through which youkai use their magic/qi/innate powers/whatever, mediums that they tap into. The youkai aren't manipulating the physical and mental layers in themselves, even on a localized scale. It's why you still see mind manipulation being considered a specialized thing in Touhou, despite most youkai supposedly already being capable of such. That's why I don't support even a "possibly" rating for giving them gravity, physics, mind, and soul manipulation by default.

You're ignoring context. The youkai are stated to be made from the things that the layer embodies (I don't think that's the correct word here, but meh). That means their whole being is one tied to the layers.

Their essence is one with the mental/spiritual/magical, they can access and control the layer because of this (as I understood it). So they would still be able to do these things.

 

[Malomtek]

You're ignoring context. The youkai are stated to be made from the things that the layer embodies (I don't think that's the correct word here, but meh). That means their whole being is one tied to the layers.

Their essence is one with the mental/spiritual/magical, they can access and control the layer because of this (as I understood it). So they would still be able to do these things.

Being made from a nonphysical essence doesn't mean you're somehow automatically able to access and control anything "special" in particular. It's like saying we need to give Casper the Friendly Ghost soul manipulation because he's made out of spirit stuff and comes from the spirit dimension. It's not "ignoring context" to say this, because the alternative is just not how anything works here.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Being made from a nonphysical essence doesn't mean you're somehow automatically able to access and control anything "special" in particular. It's like saying we need to give Casper the Friendly Ghost soul manipulation because he's made out of spirit stuff and comes from the spirit dimension. It's not "ignoring context" to say this, because the alternative is just not how anything works here.

As in, they access the layer because they are a part of it.

If Casper showed the ability to shape spirit "matter", he would indeed receive all abilities tied to it.

 

[Malomtek]

As in, they access the layer because they are a part of it.

And humans are a "part of" the physical layer, with full "access" to it, does that mean that normal humans get gravity and physics manipulation by default in Touhou?

If Casper showed the ability to shape spirit "matter", he would indeed receive all abilities tied to it.

Problem is that there's no singular and universal "spirit matter" in Touhou that most youkai manipulate, so this analogy doesn't work.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And humans are a "part of" the physical layer, with full "access" to it, does that mean that normal humans get gravity and physics manipulation by default in Touhou?

And they also don't have a statement that talks of them manipulating the world. The youkai does. And they also tell us how they do it. Through the mental layer that governs the magical and metaphysical, with them being entities made from these metaphysical components.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

There is no statement that humans can control the physical layer despite being part of it.

However yokai have the statement of controlling layers. There is a clear difference.

Also ninja'd.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Problem is that there's no singular and universal "spirit matter" in Touhou that most youkai manipulate, so this analogy doesn't work.

That's what the mental layer itself is, tho? Everything tied to magic, spirit, mental, etc goes directly through this "place", and they access and manipulate the world through the contents within. By knowing that they are made of spirit, which is equatable to magic, which comes from this thing, is it really unreasonable to suggest that they access the same stuff to do what they do?

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

This also ties in with what we said from the start. Since it stated that "most" Yokai can do this and not all yokai, a "possible" listed before these abilities seems fair. Again, if we have no explicit showings, we can deem them non-combat applicable if need be.