Touhou's UES + More Hax

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thank you both for your help here.

Also sorry about kinda accidentally forcing Lephyr into this but their help is appreciated, and it seems like most participants here agree with the current proposals.

I wish I could help out a bit more but, well, I made a promise to myself. Also I'm working on another CRT because my work is never done

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Thank you both for your help here.

Also sorry about kinda accidentally forcing Lephyr into this but their help is appreciated, and it seems like most participants here agree with the current proposals.

I wish I could help out a bit more but, well, I made a promise to myself. Also I'm working on another CRT because my work is never done

Not really forced. Got curious to know what the fuss was all about and was also talking with Malomtek beforehand.

 

[Malomtek]

And they also don't have a statement that talks of them manipulating the world. The youkai does. And they also tell us how they do it. Through the mental layer that governs the magical and metaphysical, with them being entities made from these metaphysical components.

And the youkai use the mental layer as a medium for their magical and metaphysical stuff, a medium that they tap into. They don't control the mental layer in itself, especially if we're assuming that youkais are ultimately spirits that "truly" live in the mental world. Are the youkais manipulating their own existences, which would be a necessary component of the mental plane? Somehow, I doubt it.

That's what the mental layer itself is, tho? Everything tied to magic, spirit, mental, etc goes directly through this "place", and they access and manipulate the world through the contents within. By knowing that they are made of spirit, which is equatable to magic, which comes from this thing, is it really unreasonable to suggest that they access the same stuff to do what they do?

It would be rather unlikely that youkais couldn't access any portion or aspect of the mental world (otherwise none of their special abilities would even work), but it is also rather unlikely to say that most youkai can automatically control all aspects of the mental world at once, simply by being "made of spirit" or whatnot. It's not like the "astral forms" of youkai are moving through the mental planes and "physically" touching "spirit stuff".

 

[Promestein]

You're misunderstanding me, I don't see generic manipulation of the physical layer to be either physics manipulation or gravity manipulation, it's simply a potential channel for whatever specific abilities the youkai in question has. Same with the mental layer.

 

[Malomtek]

Also I'm working on another CRT because my work is never done

Can you lay off this wave of Touhou CRTs for a while? It's starting to look like spam at this point.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And the youkai use the mental layer as a medium for their magical and metaphysical stuff, a medium that they tap into. They don't control the mental layer in itself, especially if we're assuming that youkais are ultimately spirits that "truly" live in the mental world. Are the youkais manipulating their own existences, which would be a necessary component of the mental plane? Somehow, I doubt it.


It would be rather unlikely that youkais couldn't access any portion or aspect of the mental world (otherwise none of their special abilities would even work), but it is also rather unlikely to say that most youkai can automatically control all aspects of the mental world at once, simply by being "made of spirit" or whatnot. It's not like the "astral forms" of youkai are moving through the mental planes and "physically" touching "spirit stuff".

First part can't really answer, since idk enough about the verse.

However, the second part: It is all tied to the same realm, of which they have some power over through their manipulation of it's contents. To me, that's enough.

 

[Promestein]

However, the second part: It is all tied to the same realm, of which they have some power over through their manipulation of it's contents. To me, that's enough.

I don't think it should be enough. Doing x through y doesn't mean you can do everything possible through y.

 

[Malomtek]

However, the second part: It is all tied to the same realm, of which they have some power over through their manipulation of it's contents. To me, that's enough.

Just because "it's all tied to the same realm" doesn't mean they have automatic control over all its aspects.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't think it should be enough. Doing x through y doesn't mean you can do everything possible through y.

That's a fair stance as well. But like others said, how can we know which ones pertaining to what individual?

But like I said, if there's more context I'm ignoring, then on that I can't really talk about.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Just because "it's all tied to the same realm" doesn't mean they have automatically control over all its aspects.

Naturally, that's why they are arguing for a possibly. And those that show the abilities to, should be given it.

That's what I'm in agreement with.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In regards to the point about Touhou CRT spam, this verse desperately needs revisions on all levels. For you to try and shut down an entire verse just because you don't like how many CRTs there have been is pathetic.

And I've already given everything I can on why a possibly rating works best; I don't have anything else to add. Others are more than welcome to keep debating, but I'm a little checked out of this thread by this point. Take care y'all and thanks to everyone who helped out here.

 

[Shmooply]

honestly i do agree with mal that we should slow down with the threads at least a little bit

 

[Promestein]

That's a fair stance as well. But like others said, how can we know which ones pertaining to what individual?

We see who shows them.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, from my part, I've also given my piece. Unless there's more context I'm ignoring, I agree with the possibility.

 

[Urshani]

this is almost as lively as a db crt, i agree with mokou

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

We see who shows them.

I see.

So it's not a general thing, only specific individuals? Since the quote doesn't specify and speaks pretty generally.

 

[Malomtek]

That's a fair stance as well. But like others said, how can we know which ones pertaining to what individual?

But like I said, if there's more context I'm ignoring, then on that I can't really talk about.

By going by which specific powers and abilities any given individual youkai has been shown or stated to have.

Naturally, that's why they are arguing for a possibly. And those that show the abilities to, should be given it.

That's what I'm in agreement with.

Well, if all we have to go on for even a "possibly" is a vague sense of generic and undifferentiated "physical/mental layer manipulation", then I don't think we should grant even that.

In regards to the point about Touhou CRT spam, this verse desperately needs revisions on all levels. For you to try and shut down an entire verse just because you don't like how many CRTs there have been is pathetic.

Who are you responding to?

Are you responding to...me?

Either way, I'm not trying to "shut down" anything, I genuinely believe the machine-gun fire of Touhou CRTs that have been coming lately is just annoying and starting to clog up the CRT board.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I see.

So it's not a general thing, only specific individuals? Since the quote doesn't specify and speaks pretty generally.

"Since most youkai can control the world through both the physical and mental layers,"

That's the portion of the quote in question. We have seen some characters that definitely prove they have control over some of those aspects, but not all.

Since we know that other yokai may have similar powers, but don't know for sure which ones, this is exactly a situation where possibly should be used for other yokai.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, if all we have to go on for even a "possibly" is a vague sense of generic and undifferentiated "physical/mental layer manipulation", then I don't think we should grant even that.

I personally think otherwise. But only in regards to the general nature of the statement about youkais. If it's only a thing that applies to specific individuals, then I wouldn't agree. But that's not what the quote says, that's why I ask for elaboration on that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"Since most youkai can control the world through both the physical and mental layers,"

That's the portion of the quote in question. We have seen some characters that definitely prove they have control over some of those aspects, but not all.

Since we know that other yokai may have similar powers, but don't know for sure which ones, this is exactly a situation where possibly should be used for other yokai.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. That's why I agree with you.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Who are you responding to?

Are you responding to...me?

This is clearly a passive aggressive, inflammatory statement.

Drop. It.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This is clearly a passive aggressive, inflammatory statement.

Drop. It.

To be fair, Fujiwara also responded in a kind of confrontational manner. Both should stop that.

 

[Malomtek]

"Since most youkai can control the world through both the physical and mental layers,"

That's the portion of the quote in question. We have seen some characters that definitely prove they have control over some of those aspects, but not all.

Since we know that other yokai may have similar powers, but don't know for sure which ones, this is exactly a situation where possibly should be used for other yokai.

Other youkai may indeed have similar powers, but we'll never know what they are, or if they even have them in the first place, unless they are shown or stated to have those particular powers.

That's why I can't even support a "possible" rating. We can't base entire powersets off of vague possibilities in the (almost literal) ether.

I personally think otherwise. But only in regards to the general nature of the statement about youkais. If it's only a thing that applies to specific individuals, then I wouldn't agree. But that's not what the quote says, that's why I ask for elaboration on that.

The "elaboration" is what Prom and I already said, that the physical and mental layers of reality are used as conduits or mediums through which youkais use their special powers. Therefore, if an individual youkai shows X ability or set of abilities through the physical and mental layers, that doesn't mean they somehow "possibly" have all potential applications of control over all potential aspects of either the physical or mental layer.

To do otherwise is basically to scale entire powersets based solely on the supposed existence of a UES, and that's just not how things work.

This is clearly a passive aggressive, inflammatory statement.

Drop. It.

I don't think a light joke is "passive aggression" or even that "inflammatory", but I'll otherwise drop this. I also agree with what @LephyrTheRevanchist said on the matter.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, at this point, it seems everything has been laid out then. I still agree with a possibly, though I can see why Prom doesn't.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Shmooply]

bump?

 

[Shmooply]

Touhou 21: Blue Conundrum of Bumping

 

[Promestein]

I personally don't see any reason to have it listed as a possibly. Gravity and physics are things that happen on the physical layer. Youkai can manipulate things through and on physical layer. This does not mean they manipulate gravity and physics, it just means they manipulate different things that fall under the purview of physics - that is, literally everything that happens in reality. Any youkai with any sort of physical power (eg. Suika's ability to disperse things physically) happens on the physical layer through the manipulation of some constituent - that does not mean that they are manipulating physics and gravity, just that they are manipulating something else that is also on the physical layer. In whatever case, that something else is that character's different characteristic ability.

 

[Malomtek]

I personally don't see any reason to have it listed as a possibly. Gravity and physics are things that happen on the physical layer. Youkai can manipulate things through and on physical layer. This does not mean they manipulate gravity and physics, it just means they manipulate different things that fall under the purview of physics - that is, literally everything that happens in reality. Any youkai with any sort of physical power (eg. Suika's ability to disperse things physically) happens on the physical layer through the manipulation of some constituent - that does not mean that they are manipulating physics and gravity, just that they are manipulating something else that is also on the physical layer. In whatever case, that something else is that character's different characteristic ability.

Are we within reason to consider this thread resolved? Everything appears to be laid out, and any further arguments would only go in circles.

 

[Promestein]

No.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Okay, well if gravity and physics are being rejected, then that leaves these proposals still open from what I'm aware of:

-Give every youkai 'possibly' soul, mind, gravity, physics, and empathic manipulation
-Give all spell card users magic
-Give all magic users extrasensory perception
-Give the ULiL cast statistics amp

How much of the stated above have you agreed with thus far, Prom?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ehhhh

I've made my counter arguments to the idea that "controlling the world through the physical layer" just means interacting with anything that falls under the laws of physics. If it was that broad, it wouldn't really make sense to say that only most youkai can do it. At that point we'd be assuming that a not insignificant portion of youkai are completely unbound by the laws of physics.

I really don't feel like running in circles in this CRT anymore. I feel like the remaining proposals have merit, and I've already said just about everything that can be said here.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I personally don't see any reason to have it listed as a possibly. Gravity and physics are things that happen on the physical layer. Youkai can manipulate things through and on physical layer. This does not mean they manipulate gravity and physics, it just means they manipulate different things that fall under the purview of physics - that is, literally everything that happens in reality. Any youkai with any sort of physical power (eg. Suika's ability to disperse things physically) happens on the physical layer through the manipulation of some constituent - that does not mean that they are manipulating physics and gravity, just that they are manipulating something else that is also on the physical layer. In whatever case, that something else is that character's different characteristic ability.

Then why does history repeats itself and why does the future is predetermined by Youkais?

 

[Promestein]

They say that history repeats itself and that the future is predetermined as a prank. That has nothing to do with physics anyways, so it doesn't mean anything in the context we were discussing anyways.

It also says that most can manipulate it through both. I'm fine with giving youkai some vague level of mind manip universally, but no physics or gravity shit, especially since gravity is just listed as an example of physics.

-Give all spell card users magic
-Give all magic users extrasensory perception
-Give the ULiL cast statistics amp

All this is fine.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So I guess we're trading physical layer hax for mental layer hax? Fine by me. Would this include soul manipulation as well, given that the mental layer is stated to move with the spirit?

Also I'm glad to finally have an evaluation on the smaller stuff, it's nothing major but it's good to have :v

 

[Promestein]

Kinda necessary given that Youkai are spiritual beings.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright then, it seems like we've come to an agreement.

I won't be able to work on edits for a bit so I can either do them later or someone else can take over for me, either way works :v

 

[Malomtek]

Kinda necessary given that Youkai are spiritual beings.

Wait, why are you giving youkai some vague level of spiritual manipulation by default just for being "spiritual beings"? Being a "spiritual being" has nothing inherently to do with the ability to manipulate souls, even on a limited level.

Are we giving all known youkai a "possibly (limited) mind and soul manipulation" by default here, to be precise?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Youkai being spiritual beings is a part of it, but you're missing the fact that the actual source of these hax is the 'controlling the world through the mental layer' statement. Nowhere did anybody claim that youkai get soul manipulation solely because they are made of spirit.

And nothing was ever said about it being a possibly rating, or limited in any capacity. You are intentionally misrepresenting the position of a staff member and I'm breaking my no response rule to tell you to cut it the **** out. I don't agree with Promestein 100% of the time either but I don't stoop this low over it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Youkai being spiritual beings is a part of it, but you're missing the fact that the actual source of these hax is the 'controlling the world through the mental layer' statement. Nowhere did anybody claim that youkai get soul manipulation solely because they are made of spirit.

And nothing was ever said about it being a possibly rating, or limited in any capacity. You are intentionally misrepresenting the position of a staff member and I'm breaking my no response rule to tell you to cut it the **** out. I don't agree with Promestein 100% of the time either but I don't stoop this low over it.

There's no need to get so aggressive. He simply was mistaken, most likely because of our conversation earlier about spiritual beings and their own nature. Simply clarify and GG.