Touhou's UES + More Hax

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think interaction is significantly different from control though. The first could mean anything; everyone technically 'interacts' with these layers and the things they embody. However, control implies some degree of manipulation over those things. I interact with the laws of physics every day, but I would never go so far as to say I can control them.

I'm also not sure about the idea that they do so through differing ways, since Rinnosuke's statement doesn't seem to imply as such.

Also, if the mental layer doesn't really grant control of the mind, that'd need to be applied to the primordial gods as well. As I said before, the list of hax tied to each layer was decided on in a different CRT, and if we're making any significant changes to that list then I would at least like input from the OP of that CRT (@Hecatia_Gaming). I personally think the mental layer embodying magic, the soul, mind, and emotions is fine, but I'm open to discussion about this.

And no, I've never DMed Promestein. I generally do not DM people unless they DM me first.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Wait, Fujiwara has been contacting you in DMs?

I don't think anything I've said was a "potshot" or particularly "passive-aggressive", as I have consistently restricted my remarks and statements to YesMokou's arguments and YesMokou's arguments alone. I never made particularly personal attack like YesMokou has.

Spoiler: Hmm.

That might also be directed to you, though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Just realized something.

Prom said to stop taking shots at each other, including in her DMs, which implies one of us was DMing her to do just that.

...Except I've never DMed Promestein, and don't DM people unless I have their explicit permission to do so.

So were you DMing Prom just to talk shit about me?

I'm used to people talking shit about me behind my back but jesus christ this is pathetic.

 

[Shmooply]

Let's reserve the DMs stuff for the rule violations thread or the HR staff, don't want this to go off-topic like another Touhou CRT.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fair enough. Though I'd at least like confirmation from Prom that Malomtek is shittalking me in DMs before I actually make a report.

 

[Malomtek]

Just realized something.

Prom said to stop taking shots at each other, including in her DMs, which implies one of us was DMing her to do just that.

...Except I've never DMed Promestein, and don't DM people unless I have their explicit permission to do so.

So were you DMing Prom just to talk shit about me?

I'm used to people talking shit about me behind my back but jesus christ this is pathetic.

Fair enough. Though I'd at least like confirmation from Prom that Malomtek is shittalking me in DMs before I actually make a report.

Jesus Christ indeed...

I never said anything to Prom about you in particular or personally. And even if I did talk to her in PMs about you, it doesn't matter, because we keep Discord convos and forum convos separate here.

This attempt to get me punished essentially for having private convos (but not Prom, somehow, despite her presumably participating in them too) is far more pathetic than any "shit-talking" I could have made against you in them. And to be blunt here, you seriously need to grow up

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I really don't care that much.

And no, I'm not particularly happy about the idea that Promestein is engaging in this, but she has not shown any open disdain for me like you have so I can't necessarily accuse her of anything.

Let's just ******* move on.

 

[Promestein]

I haven't done anything besides talk here.

 

[Malomtek]

I really don't care that much.

Then why were you mulling over wanting to report me for it?

And no, I'm not particularly happy about the idea that Promestein is engaging in this, but she has not shown any open disdain for me like you have so I can't necessarily accuse her of anything.

You have shown far more "open disdain" against me in this forum than I ever have against you. Or is calling me a "whiny bitch" somehow not "open disdain"?

Let's just ******* move on.

Considering that you were willing to report me because you thought I badmouthed you in some Discord DMs, there will be no "moving on" from me until the issue is fully resolved in the RVR thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright then.

I think interaction is significantly different from control though. The first could mean anything; everyone technically 'interacts' with these layers and the things they embody. However, control implies some degree of manipulation over those things. I interact with the laws of physics every day, but I would never go so far as to say I can control them.

I'm also not sure about the idea that they do so through differing ways, since Rinnosuke's statement doesn't seem to imply as such.

Also, if the mental layer doesn't really grant control of the mind, that'd need to be applied to the primordial gods as well. As I said before, the list of hax tied to each layer was decided on in a different CRT, and if we're making any significant changes to that list then I would at least like input from the OP of that CRT (@Hecatia_Gaming). I personally think the mental layer embodying magic, the soul, mind, and emotions is fine, but I'm open to discussion about this.

Anyways, I would really appreciate it if we got back on topic.

My points from last night still stand.

 

[Promestein]

My thought is that a lot of shit falls under the laws of physics and interacting with and controlling things through the physical layer does not specifically mean you are controlling physics so much as things that fall under physics - things that thus fall under the purview of the physical law. Same with the mental layer and its respective territory.

 

[Malomtek]

Alright then.

Anyways, I would really appreciate it if we got back on topic.

My points from last night still stand.

It is said that youkais control the world through the physical and mental layers, not controlling either layer in and of themselves.

In fact, it's why we should remove all listings of physics manipulation and gravity manipulation from the profiles of youkai who have literally never displayed either in canon, such as Hong Meiling.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's not really a fair comparison when control implies, well, control and not just interacting with the world on a basic level. Again, my analogy still stands: I can interact with the world through the laws of physics, but I would not say I can control the world through them.

It's a very specifically worded statement, and if we use your interpretation, then Rinnosuke would be saying that... youkai interact with the world normally? That... doesn't make sense and seems wildly out of place. Why are we assuming that control means anything but control (ie; manipulation)?

If there's a translation error at play here, I'd like to see it, otherwise what we've been given is enough to assume some degree of manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Google translate tells me that the full statement (大抵の妖怪はこの物理の層と心理の層だけで世界を捉えているから、歴史が繰り返したり、未来が予定されているといった戯 (ざ) れ言 (ごと) を言うのだという) could also be saying 'capture', which does not imply any sort of ordinary day-to-day interaction with the world and more specifically is referring to some degree of control over the world's laws.

So no, they're not just "interacting with" the laws of reality; they're actively ******* with them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In fact, it's why we should remove all listings of physics manipulation and gravity manipulation from the profiles of youkai who have literally never displayed either in canon, such as Hong Meiling.

So you're saying we should get rid of all physiology pages, correct? Because by your logic they would all be listing abilities that characters haven't shown in canon and are therefore invalid.

 

[Pixy]

Google translate tells me that the full statement (大抵の妖怪はこの物理の層と心理の層だけで世界を捉えているから、歴史が繰り返したり、未来が予定されているといった戯 (ざ) れ言 (ごと) を言うのだという) could also be saying 'capture', which does not imply any sort of ordinary day-to-day interaction with the world and more specifically is referring to some degree of control over the world's laws.

So no, they're not just "interacting with" the laws of reality; they're actively ******* with them.

I got it No worry it from Curiosities of Lotus Asia/Chapter 27 here

 

[Malomtek]

That's not really a fair comparison when control implies, well, control and not just interacting with the world on a basic level. Again, my analogy still stands: I can interact with the world through the laws of physics, but I would not say I can control the world through them.

It's a very specifically worded statement, and if we use your interpretation, then Rinnosuke would be saying that... youkai interact with the world normally? That... doesn't make sense and seems wildly out of place. Why are we assuming that control means anything but control (ie; manipulation)?

If there's a translation error at play here, I'd like to see it, otherwise what we've been given is enough to assume some degree of manipulation.

We can interpret that statement as youkai controlling some aspects of the physical and mental layers at the same time. For example, a youkai could use powerful magic (mental layer) to create a powerful jet of flame (physical layer). Or using telekinesis (mental layer) to lift a mountain (physical layer).

So you're saying we should get rid of all physiology pages, correct? Because by your logic they would all be listing abilities that characters haven't shown in canon and are therefore invalid.

What "physiology" pages? If a character is stated or shown to have such and such physiology or such-and-such existential state, then of course they should be listed as possessing a certain "physiology". I don't see how this is particularly relevant to Touhou, however, since none of the youkais we have profiles for are giving any sort of special "physiology"

 

[Shmooply]

We didn't make a physiology page for youkai because physiology pages are the most repugnant and vile thing this wiki has ever invented, but plenty of the powers listed on their profiles comes from being... well, y'know, youkai.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Sorry to keep harping on this but let's look at the individual definitions of control, because only one of them really applies here.

to direct the behavior of (a person or animal) : to cause (a person or animal) to do what you want
Nope. Nothing about people or animals there.

to have power over (something)
Youkai having power or authority over the world seems like a direct contradiction with the existence of the spell card rules, which were invented partially to prevent that exact thing from happening.

Which leaves us with...

to direct the actions or function of (something) : to cause (something) to act or function in a certain way
There we go. Causing the world to function a certain way through the laws of reality. Seems like a pretty clear case for manipulation of those laws, no?

"To direct the actions of" also sounds a hell of a lot more like manipulation than just regular old interaction to me.

We can interpret that statement as youkai controlling some aspects of the physical and mental layers at the same time. For example, a youkai could use powerful magic (mental layer) to create a powerful jet of flame (physical layer). Or using telekinesis (mental layer) to lift a mountain (physical layer).

...No we can't. We can't just assume that a statement about control through the fundamental aspects of reality means anything but controlling those aspects until proven otherwise. We could stonewall any possible ability upgrade by suggesting alternatives that are theoretically possible but not outright stated, but we shouldn't because that'd be ******* stupid.

What "physiology" pages? If a character is stated or shown to have such and such physiology or such-and-such existential state, then of course they should be listed as possessing a certain "physiology". I don't see how this is particularly relevant to Touhou, however, since none of the youkais we have profiles for are giving any sort of special "physiology"

You evidently had an issue with the fact that no youkai had shown physics or gravity manipulation in canon, despite a statement saying they could do so. I thought the same would extend to similar situations as well. The fact that it doesn't seems like a pretty clear example of bias, though.

And yes, youkai do have a certain physiology, we have a whole page on it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We didn't make a physiology page for youkai because physiology pages are the most repugnant and vile thing this wiki has ever invented, but plenty of the powers listed on their profiles comes from being... well, y'know, youkai.

We technically do, it's just that the physiology is on the Touhou explanation page, along with all the other relevant physiologies in the verse as well.

 

[Malomtek]

We didn't make a physiology page for youkai because physiology pages are the most repugnant and vile thing this wiki has ever invented, but plenty of the powers listed on their profiles comes from being... well, y'know, youkai.

The low-godly regen and resistances, I don't really care for, but the physics and gravity manipulation is just bunk.

...No we can't. We can't just assume that a statement about control through the fundamental aspects of reality means anything but controlling those aspects until proven otherwise. We could stonewall any possible ability upgrade by suggesting alternatives that are theoretically possible but not outright stated, but we shouldn't because that'd be ******* stupid.

That sounds like an extreme assumption that would require far more decisive evidence than just "the physical and mental layers are fundamental aspects of reality". Again, no statement says that youkais control the entire physical and mental layers of reality in themselves, or as units. How would that even be possible for two opposing beings to force their will on entire layers of reality on an equal level without something ripping apart?

You evidently had an issue with the fact that no youkai had shown physics or gravity manipulation in canon, despite a statement saying they could do so. I thought the same would extend to similar situations as well.

What statement? Do you mean the "control the world through physical and mental layers" statement? Because then you would just be using circular logic, in which the reasoning basically amounts to "youkais can control physics, gravity, minds, and souls because of this statement that says youkai 'control the world through both the physical and mental layers', which I interpret to mean that youkais can control physics, gravity, minds, and souls".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, let's adjust the statement to "youkai can control the world through physics, gravity, minds, and souls", which is more in line with Rinnosuke's statement. That slightly revised statement still paints a clear picture of manipulating those things.

That sounds like an extreme assumption that would require far more decisive evidence than just "the physical and mental layers are the fundamental aspects of reality". Again, no statement says that youkais control the entire physical and mental layers of reality in themselves, or as units. How would that even be possible for two opposing beings to force their will on entire layers of reality on an equal level without something ripping apart?

I never said that. Having physics or gravity manipulation by no means grants you the ability to control those things on a universal scale. A youkai's range with these abilities could be a few feet, a few miles, or even variable dependent on the youkai's level of power. We have no way to say for certain, but they obviously aren't controlling the entire layer all at once.

Once again you completely misrepresent my arguments to make me look bad.

 

[Malomtek]

Okay, let's adjust the statement to "youkai can control the world through physics, gravity, minds, and souls", which is more in line with Rinnosuke's statement. That slightly revised statement still paints a clear picture of manipulating those things.

And that statement would still be wrong, because it doesn't apply to all youkai, and not all youkai have displayed all or even any of these particular abilities. When has Hong Meiling ever actually display any particular control over gravity? When has Nitori Kawashiro ever displayed any particular control over the minds and souls of others? It goes back to what I said before, that you can't just give someone all the potential applications of a UES simply on the fact that they use it too, especially if those potential applications were never actually displayed by the character in question.

I never said that. Having physics or gravity manipulation by no means grants you the ability to control those things on a universal scale. A youkai's range with these abilities could be a few feet, a few miles, or even variable dependent on the youkai's level of power. We have no way to say for certain, but they obviously aren't controlling the entire layer all at once.

Once again you completely misrepresent my arguments to make me look bad.

You were arguing that the youkais were manipulating the "fundamental aspects of reality" in and of themselves, and not simply aspects of the physical and mental layers at any given time? How could that statement be interpreted as anything other than an argument that youkais control the physical and mental layers as wholes?

If a youkai's range with these "reality-layer" abilities could be variable based on said youkai's level of power, then that only adds to my point that they aren't controlling the "fundamental aspects of reality" in and of themselves. You can't really have "variable" ranges of control over "fundamental aspects of reality" if you're controlling them as units.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And that statement would still be wrong, because it doesn't apply to all youkai, and not all youkai have displayed all or even any of these particular abilities. When has Hong Meiling ever actually display any particular control over gravity? When has Nitori Kawashiro ever displayed any particular control over the minds and souls of others? It goes back to what I said before, that you can't just give someone all the potential applications of a UES simply on the fact that they use it too, especially if those potential applications never actually displayed by the character in question.

They haven't. This is just an inherent part of youkai physiology. Neither do we see youkai resisting biological manipulation, or regenerating from being cut into pieces, or shrugging off the effects of the true moon, we just know that these are universally shared traits across youkai. Same applies to the physical/mental layer stuff.

Go to any physiology page real quick and tell me how many abilities and resistances are actually shown in universe for all relevant characters. I'm positive you won't find any, because that's the nature of physiology as a whole. At this point, what you're suggesting would lead to serious downgrades for a number of verses. Go on, tell a DMC supporter that demon physiology is bunk because almost none of them have directly showcased those abilities. I'm sure they'll take that real well.

It's not even a UES, we're not on that topic anymore. Try to keep up. Your arguments here are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how this wiki treats both physiology and universal energy systems.

You were arguing that the youkais were manipulating the "fundamental aspects of reality" in and of themselves, and not simply aspects of the physical and mental layers at any given time? How could that statement be interpreted as anything other than an argument that youkais control the physical and mental layers as wholes?

If a youkai's range with these "reality-layer" abilities could be variable based on said youkai's level of power, then that only adds to my point that they aren't controlling the "fundamental aspects of reality" in and of themselves. You can't really have "variable" ranges of control over "fundamental aspects of reality" if you're controlling them as units.

...Again, not every physics or gravity manipulation user has universal range. Nor does every soul user, or mind user, or reality warping user, etc etc. You can control these things on a small, localized scale you know. In fact, that's by far the most common demonstration of these abilities. Go through the list of physics/gravity users and tell me how many have universal range with those abilities compared to how many have smaller ranges. Go on, I'll wait.

And the variable thing was me just throwing out random bullshit because, as I said, we have no way to determine the range of these abilities. If we were to give them a range, it would be more logical to use the standard danmaku range of 36 meters (even if I think that number is a bit of a lowball). None of my suggestions were meant to be concrete examples of youkai range, and I wish you wouldn't misrepresent it as such.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

One extra thing I wanna point out is that a lot of the arguments you're making here would need to be applied on a wiki-wide scale, not just exclusive to Touhou. If you have an issue with physiology pages, or how physics/gravity manipulation range is treated, or how we treat abilities that are only stated and never shown, then make a CRT to change those standards. But going around picking on individual verses isn't the way to go about it.

You have my full support in making a staff discussion thread about these topics even if I disagree with you. If you have such a big problem with the wiki standards, either put in the work to change them, or find another wiki.

 

[Malomtek]

They haven't. This is just an inherent part of youkai physiology. Neither do we see youkai resisting biological manipulation, or regenerating from being cut into pieces, or shrugging off the effects of the true moon, we just know that these are universally shared traits across youkai. Same applies to the physical/mental layer stuff.

We have been (for the most part) explicitly told that youkais can resist biological manipulation, regenerate from being cut to pieces, or shrug off true moon madness. This cannot be compared to just assuming that youkais can do this and that because they do things involving the physical/mental layers.

Go to any physiology page real quick and tell me how many abilities and resistances are actually shown in universe for all relevant characters. I'm positive you won't find any, because that's the nature of physiology as a whole. At this point, what you're suggesting would lead to serious downgrades for a number of verses. Go on, tell a DMC supporter that demon physiology is bunk because almost none of them have directly showcased those abilities. I'm sure they'll take that real well.

Different verses can have different interpretations/conceptions of different physiologies, and that's not even relevant here regardless.

It's not even a UES, we're not on that topic anymore. Try to keep up. Your arguments here are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how this wiki treats both physiology and universal energy systems.

Please tone down the disrespect and condescension, especially now.

...Again, not every physics or gravity manipulation user has universal range. Nor does every soul user, or mind user, or reality warping user, etc etc. You can control these things on a small, localized scale you know. In fact, that's by far the most common demonstration of these abilities. Go through the list of physics/gravity users and tell me how many have universal range with those abilities compared to how many have smaller ranges. Go on, I'll wait.

And the variable thing was me just throwing out random bullshit because, as I said, we have no way to determine the range of these abilities. If we were to give them a range, it would be more logical to use the standard danmaku range of 36 meters (even if I think that number is a bit of a lowball). None of my suggestions were meant to be concrete examples of youkai range, and I wish you wouldn't misrepresent it as such.

We haven't even established that youkais in general are able to manipulation physics, gravity, minds, and souls to begin with, beyond your interpretation of an otherwise vague "control the world through physical and mental layers" quote, so there's no point in quibbling about range. But we're getting sidetracked here. There's no reason to assume that any given youkai can necessarily control all aspects of the physical and mental realms, even on a localized scale.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, just as we've been explicitly told youkai control the world through physics, gravity, minds, and souls. Quit trying to act like the statement is super vague or whatever when it really isn't, and this is something that was pretty much universally agreed on over a month ago.

You're gonna have to elaborate on that. You can't just say "oh DMC demon physiology works completely differently from youkai physiology so I'm not gonna be as harsh on it" without at least some explanation. At this point it seems like you're ignoring the fact that you have an obvious bias against Touhou.

So what's the correct interpretation? Becasue I've already established that youkai just "interacting" with the world is completely wrong based on the numerous definitions of what control is, through an alternative translation, and the context of the statement itself. I've provided evidence for my points; you should do the same.

You're insistent that your interpretation alone is correct regardless of the evidence that suggests otherwise; go and find some goddamn evidence for once. Because I don't wanna waste my time actually finding said evidence only for you to stonewall and go "nope, its wank and flowery language and you're wrong".

 

[Malomtek]

Yes, just as we've been explicitly told youkai control the world through physics, gravity, minds, and souls. Quit trying to act like the statement is super vague or whatever when it really isn't, and this is something that was pretty much universally agreed on over a month ago.

But if the ability of youkais to control physics, gravity, minds, and souls was such an omnipresent reality, it would be acknowledged in-verse.

And 'controlling the world through the physical and mental layers' is rather vague. We're obviously not assuming most youkais are affecting the entire planet/universe/multiverse at once with their powers, and we know that each youkai has just slightly different powers from the rest, so clearly the applications of this physical/mental layer "world control" are not general to all youkai.

You're gonna have to elaborate on that. You can't just say "oh DMC demon physiology works completely differently from youkai physiology so I'm not gonna be as harsh on it" without at least some explanation. At this point it seems like you're ignoring the fact that you have an obvious bias against Touhou.

I said what I said. Different verses have different ideas about how different specific "physiologies" work, and we should analyze each verse's rendition of a "physiology" on a case-by-case basis. Any "biases" I might have for or against Touhou as a whole are irrelevant here.

So what's the correct interpretation? Becasue I've already established that youkai just "interacting" with the world is completely wrong based on the numerous definitions of what control is, through an alternative translation, and the context of the statement itself. I've provided evidence for my points; you should do the same.

The most likely/most accurate interpretation is pretty much what I have said before: we can interpret that statement as youkai controlling some aspects of the physical and mental layers at the same time, or aspects of the physical or mental worlds individually. For example, a youkai could use powerful magic (mental layer) to create a powerful jet of flame (physical layer). A different youkai could use telekinesis (mental layer) to lift a mountain (physical layer). Another youkai could use a magic sword (physical + mental layer) to absorb "temperaments" (mental layer) and use them to control the weather (physical layer).

Still another youkai could just mindfuck someone (mental layer). And yet still another youkai could use qi (physical + mental layer) to do energy blasts (physical layer) or to manipulate the earth (physical layer), or cause a tsunami (physical layer). Or just punch an island in half with sheer brute force (purely physical layer).

In short, we should assume that youkais are capable of manipulating only the specific aspects of the physical or mental worlds they've been shown or explicitly stated to have some control over, nothing more, nothing less.

You're insistent that your interpretation alone is correct regardless of the evidence that suggests otherwise; go and find some goddamn evidence for once. Because I don't wanna waste my time actually finding said evidence only for you to stonewall and go "nope, its wank and flowery language and you're wrong".

You haven't brought up anything particularly special, and I don't understand how I need anything more than what has already been presented and what is known in the Touhou setting. You're essentially asking me to prove a negative when you haven't even decisively proved a positive, beyond insisting on your own interpretations regardless of any alternative explanations that might be around.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But if the ability of youkais to control physics, gravity, minds, and souls was such an omnipresent reality, it would be acknowledged in-verse.

And 'controlling the world through the physical and mental layers' is rather vague. We're obviously not assuming most youkais are affecting the entire planet/universe/multiverse at once with their powers, and we know that each youkai has just slightly different powers from the rest, so clearly the applications of this physical/mental layer "world control" are not general to all youkai.

Except it ******* is acknowledged in-universe, by Rinnosuke, in the scan that brought up the topic of these hax in the first place. And a species having abilities unique to them doesn't mean that those abilities must always be brought up in discussion about them. For example, just take a look at literally every other bit of youkai physiology. They're brought up once, maybe twice if we're really ******* lucky, and that has no impact on the validity of these statements.

I never said youkai have anything resembling cosmic ranges with their abilities, so stop bringing up the topic when it has 0 relevance to the discussion at hand. Also, youkai having different powers from the rest doesn't help your argument. Control of the world through the layers of reality just happens to be a common thread they all share; by no means is this related to their individual abilities like darkness manipulation, water manipulation, boundary manipulation, etc.

I said what I said. Different verses have different ideas about how different specific "physiologies" work, and we should analyze each verse's rendition of a "physiology" on a case-by-case basis. Any "biases" I might have for or against Touhou as a whole are irrelevant here.

Bias is absolutely a factor here, as it is in all debates.

I'm not gonna stick on this point because you made an incoherent statement and then refused to elaborate, so I'm under no obligation to respond until you can actually make sense for once.

The most likely/most accurate interpretation is pretty much what I have said before: we can interpret that statement as youkai controlling some aspects of the physical and mental layers at the same time, or aspects of the physical or mental worlds individually. For example, a youkai could use powerful magic (mental layer) to create a powerful jet of flame (physical layer). A different youkai could use telekinesis (mental layer) to lift a mountain (physical layer). Another youkai could use a magic sword (physical + mental layer) to absorb "temperaments" (mental layer) and use them to control the weather (physical layer).

Still another youkai could just mindfuck someone (mental layer). And yet still another youkai could use qi (physical + mental layer) to do energy blasts (physical layer) or to manipulate the earth (physical layer), or cause a tsunami (physical layer). Or just punch an island in half with sheer brute force (purely physical layer).

In short, we should assume that youkais are capable of manipulating only the specific aspects of the physical or mental worlds they've been shown or explicitly stated to have some control over, nothing more, nothing less.

You really don't ******* get this, do you? You bring it up in every god damn debate and it never works. Just because we do not visually see a character use an ability, that does not mean they do not have that ability.

The 'controlling the world through the physical/mental layer' thing is a trait unique to youkai based on the description given; Rinnosuke does not say anything about any species beyond youkai. So if we use your interpretation that control of these layers can just be attributed to physical or magical attacks/techniques, then logically everyone in the verse would be described as 'controlling the world through the physical/mental layer', since they can also physically attack people or use magic. Except that's directly contradicted by the text.

Control of the world through these layers is a unique trait of youkai, and until you provide hard evidence that suggests otherwise, your point is in direct conflict with the text given, and should be discarded.

You haven't brought up anything particularly special, and I don't understand how I need anything more than what has already been presented and what is known in the Touhou setting. You're essentially asking me to prove a negative when you haven't even decisively proved a positive, beyond insisting on your own interpretations regardless of any alternative explanations that might be around.

That's a lot of words for "I haven't read your posts nor do I intend to".

 

[Promestein]

What's the Rinnosuke statement exactly?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Technically I'm not sure if this should be attributed to Rinnosuke or Reimu since Reimu is the one who's telling him about the existence of layers in the first place, but it shouldn't matter either way.

The point here is that if 'controlling the world through the physical/mental layers' is something that can be achieved just by physically interacting with the world and using magic, then why is it something attributed to youkai specifically?

 

[Malomtek]

Except it ******* is acknowledged in-universe, by Rinnosuke, in the scan that brought up the topic of these hax in the first place. And a species having abilities unique to them doesn't mean that those abilities must always be brought up in discussion about them. For example, just take a look at literally every other bit of youkai physiology. They're brought up once, maybe twice if we're really ******* lucky, and that has no impact on the validity of these statements.

I never said youkai have anything resembling cosmic ranges with their abilities, so stop bringing up the topic when it has 0 relevance to the discussion at hand. Also, youkai having different powers from the rest doesn't help your argument. Control of the world through the layers of reality just happens to be a common thread they all share; by no means is this related to their individual abilities like darkness manipulation, water manipulation, boundary manipulation, etc.

Rinnosuke said that "most youkai can control the world through both the physical and mental layers", and like you said, "control of the world" through these planes of existence has no bearing on their individual abilities, so we shouldn't give any ability to manipulate physics, gravity, minds, and souls to any youkai simply by default.

Bias is absolutely a factor here, as it is in all debates.

I'm not gonna stick on this point because you made an incoherent statement and then refused to elaborate, so I'm under no obligation to respond until you can actually make sense for once.

So should I say that your arguments mean less because of your obvious pro-Touhou bias? No, because it's not relevant to the actual discussion in itself.

Any given series can depict any given "special" physiology in just a slightly different manner than they are depicted in any other series, so we should analyze how any given verse treats a given "special" physiology on a case-by-case basis. This isn't "incoherent", in fact it's incredibly obvious.

You really don't ******* get this, do you? You bring it up in every god damn debate and it never works. Just because we do not visually see a character use an ability, that does not mean they do not have that ability.

I also allowed for characters to be granted abilities they've been clearly stated to have when I said:

"In short, we should assume that youkais are capable of manipulating only the specific aspects of the physical or mental worlds they've been shown or explicitly stated to have some control over, nothing more, nothing less."

I don't even know how you missed the bold parts.

The 'controlling the world through the physical/mental layer' thing is a trait unique to youkai based on the description given; Rinnosuke does not say anything about any species beyond youkai. So if we use your interpretation that control of these layers can just be attributed to physical or magical attacks/techniques, then logically everyone in the verse would be described as 'controlling the world through the physical/mental layer', since they can also physically attack people or use magic. Except that's directly contradicted by the text.

How is it contradicted by the text? Rinnosuke just said that "most youkai" can do this physical/mental "world control". He never said that only youkai can do this physical/mental "world control", that's just your assumption. Rinnosuke was just describing what youkai can generally do, not expounding on traits unique to youkai or something.

Control of the world through these layers is a unique trait of youkai, and until you provide hard evidence that suggests otherwise, your point is in direct conflict with the text given, and should be discarded.

Can't gods and human magicians also "control the world through the physical and mental layers", or are youkai somehow more potent than (among others) actual gods in this regard?

That's a lot of words for "I haven't read your posts nor do I intend to".

I have, and my point still stands.

 

[Promestein]

My point stands; they control the world through these layers, sure, but that doesn't mean they control everything that makes them what they are. Physics and gravity are part of the physical layer, sure, but that doesn't mean they're what every given youkai manipulates in the physical layer.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Rinnosuke said that "most youkai can control the world through both the physical and mental layers", and like you said, "control of the world" through these planes of existence has no bearing on their individual abilities, so we shouldn't give

Shouldn't give what? I meant it in the sense that while gravity, physics, soul, and mind manipulation are shared abilities between youkai, this does not mean we should equalize every other youkai ability unless otherwise stated. The layer stuff applies to all youkai, while things like Rumia's darkness manipulation stem from an entirely unconnected powerset and cannot be scaled to anyone else.

So should I say that your arguments mean less because of your obvious pro-Touhou bias? No, because it's not relevant to the actual discussion in itself.

Any given series can depict any given "special" physiology in just a slightly different manner than they are depicted in any other series, so we should analyze how any given verse treats a given "special" physiology on a case-by-case basis. This isn't "incoherent", in fact it's incredibly obvious.

My love for Touhou has no bearing on how I treat it in VS. I've been more than willing to throw out certain proposals because they were wrong and I didn't have enough evidence to back myself up. You're just throwing around baseless accusations now, and it's pathetic.

I also allowed for characters to be granted abilities they've been clearly stated to have when I said:

"In short, we should assume that youkais are capable of manipulating only the specific aspects of the physical or mental worlds they've been shown or explicitly stated to have some control over, nothing more, nothing less."

I don't even know how you missed the bold parts.

Yes, and youkai have been stated to be able to do these things. I don't know how you missed that.

How is it contradicted by the text? Rinnosuke just said that "most youkai" can do this physical/mental "world control". He never said that only youkai can do this physical/mental "world control", that's just your assumption. Rinnosuke was just describing what youkai can generally do, not expounding on traits unique to youkai or something.

Because if this is something that anyone can do just through plain interaction with the world, then why does Rinnosuke specifically single out youkai?

Can't gods and human magicians also "control the world through the physical and mental layers", or are youkai somehow more potent than (among others) actual gods in this regard?

No, they can't. Primordial gods can because they created these layers from scratch. Nobody else is manipulating these layers as far as I'm aware, nor did I ever say they were.

My point stands; they control the world through these layers, sure, but that doesn't mean they control everything that makes them what they are. Physics and gravity are part of the physical layer, sure, but that doesn't mean they're what every given youkai manipulates in the physical layer.

Then what are they controlling? I've established that they aren't just interacting with the world on a basic level, so they're evidently manipulating something. Also, these layers likely embody far more than what's stated; I'm only scaling this manipulation to what we know these layers embody. The physical layer is broad enough that total control over it could grant matter manipulation, life manipulation, and likely a few other things, but none of that is explicitly stated like physics and gravity. I'm only going with what's explicitly in the text.

If youkai are manipulating some but not all of the fundamental aspects of these layers, how exactly do we pick which abilities to include and exclude? How do we determine which youkai gets what? How do we decide which youkai get these abilities anyways, since the statement says most youkai and not all? There's no way to pick and choose what to leave out that wouldn't be entirely based in speculation. We can't just shrug this off as a non-ability either, but I've yet to see any alternate proposals. Perhaps a likely or possibly rating for these abilities? I'm open to alternate suggestions here, but I would at least need to see those suggestions first.

 

[Malomtek]

Shouldn't give what? I meant it in the sense that while gravity, physics, soul, and mind manipulation are shared abilities between youkai, this does not mean we should equalize every other youkai ability unless otherwise stated. The layer stuff applies to all youkai, while things like Rumia's darkness manipulation stem from an entirely unconnected powerset and cannot be scaled to anyone else.

I edited my post to finish that sentence, but it seems that you didn't see it. My point is that gravity, physics, soul, and mind manipulation are not shared abilities between youkai just because most of them use the physical and mental layers of reality.

My love for Touhou has no bearing on how I treat it in VS. I've been more than willing to throw out certain proposals because they were wrong and I didn't have enough evidence to back myself up. You're just throwing around baseless accusations now, and it's pathetic.

I'm not "throwing around" anything. I even said that your pro-Touhou bias has to relevance to the actual discussion in itself. It was literally the next sentence of the passage you quoted to respond to.

It's as if you're not even actually reading what I post, and instead giving complete misrepresentations on what you only partially skimmed.

Yes, and youkai have been stated to be able to do these things. I don't know how you missed that.

They've been stated to "control the world through the physical and mental layers", a vague quote that could mean anything and nothing by itself, but in context means that youkai can do things that operate on both the physical and mental-spiritual levels, like the kind of stuff I gave examples for.

It doesn't mean that all youkai have gravity, physics, soul, and mind manipulation by default.

Because if this is something that anyone can do just through plain interaction with the world, then why does Rinnosuke specifically single out youkai?

What even is this argument? I never said that "controlling the world through both the physical and mental layers" is something that anyone could do with just regular interactions with the world. I'm pretty sure Promestein never argued for such either.

Rinnosuke wasn't "singling out" youkai, he was just explaining a general trait that most youkai have.

No, they can't. Primordial gods can because they created these layers from scratch. Nobody else is manipulating these layers as far as I'm aware, nor did I ever say that.

Your argument is reaching heights of absurdity I've never even imagined.

How is it that youkai are somehow able to have gravity, physics, soul, and mind manipulation by default, but literal gods can't? It's ridiculous. It implies that youkai are intrinsically more "hax" than gods in the Touhou universe when they've otherwise literally never been portrayed as such.

Then what are they controlling?

Whatever aspects of the physical and psycho-spiritual worlds they been specifically shown or stated to control. Therefore. as an example, if a youkai has shown or been stated to have mind or gravity manipulation specifically, we give them mind or gravity manipulation. If a youkai hasn't shown or been stated to have mind or gravity manipulation specifically, we don't give them mind or gravity manipulation.

You're making all of this incredibly complicated when it's actually incredibly simple.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Your argument is reaching heights of absurdity I've never even imagined.

How is it that youkai are somehow able to have gravity, physics, soul, and mind manipulation by default, but literal gods can't? It's ridiculous.

This is an argument on the basis of "it doesn't seem like characters should have these abilities, therefore they don't". You want people to take your arguments seriously? Start using some actual god damn evidence. We're reaching ******* Youtube comments levels of shitty debating now.

What even is this argument? I never said that "controlling the world through both the physical and mental layers" is something that anyone could do with just regular interactions with the world. I'm pretty sure Promestein never argued for such either.

Rinnosuke wasn't "singling out" youkai, he was just explaining a general trait that most youkai have.

Imagine not even reading your own ******* posts.

The most likely/most accurate interpretation is pretty much what I have said before: we can interpret that statement as youkai controlling some aspects of the physical and mental layers at the same time, or aspects of the physical or mental worlds individually. For example, a youkai could use powerful magic (mental layer) to create a powerful jet of flame (physical layer). A different youkai could use telekinesis (mental layer) to lift a mountain (physical layer). Another youkai could use a magic sword (physical + mental layer) to absorb "temperaments" (mental layer) and use them to control the weather (physical layer).

Still another youkai could just mindfuck someone (mental layer). And yet still another youkai could use qi (physical + mental layer) to do energy blasts (physical layer) or to manipulate the earth (physical layer), or cause a tsunami (physical layer). Or just punch an island in half with sheer brute force (purely physical layer).

And imagine not even reading staff member posts.

My thought is that a lot of shit falls under the laws of physics and interacting with and controlling things through the physical layer does not specifically mean you are controlling physics so much as things that fall under physics - things that thus fall under the purview of the physical law. Same with the mental layer and its respective territory.

Remind me again why I should take you seriously?

Also, if control of these layers can be done via physical attacks or magic alone, then why did the scan only mention youkai, when these supposed parameters would apply to the entire verse? If an ability is as universal as you claim it to be, then where is the evidence? Don't answer that, I already know it doesn't ******* exist, and even if it did, you wouldn't provide it.

Whatever aspects of the physical and psycho-spiritual worlds they been specifically shown or stated to control. Therefore. as an example, if a youkai has shown or been stated to have mind or gravity manipulation specifically, we give them mind or gravity manipulation. If a youkai hasn't shown or been stated to have mind or gravity manipulation specifically, we don't give them mind or gravity manipulation.

You're making all of this incredibly complicated when it's actually incredibly simple.

Oh good, you mean like controlling the world through the laws of gravity and physics? You know, things that have been explicitly stated to be a part of the physical layer? Which is one of the layers youkai are explicitly stated to control the world through? So by your own logic, this statement is fine to use, so thanks!

Like I said before, we cannot definitively determine the full extent of what things every layer encompasses, nor can we determine to what degree youkai have these abilities, which abilities should be excluded, which youkai should get what, etc. Hence why I suggested a 'possibly' rating for these abilities. If you are unable to shift your argument to adjust to new proposals and continue to insist on getting your downgrades at any cost, then please kindly shut up and go bother another verse.

They've been stated to "control the world through the physical and mental layers", a vague quote that could mean anything and nothing by itself, but in context means that youkai can do things that operate on both the physical and mental-spiritual levels, like the kind of stuff I gave examples for.

It doesn't mean that all youkai have gravity, physics, soul, and mind manipulation by default.

We've been here before. Everyone can do things that operate on these layers; these are the laws of reality itself we're talking about here, after all. But only youkai have a statement implying that their degree of control of these layers is beyond everyone else's.

Nowhere did Rinnosuke say that humans, gods, hermits, or whoever else can control the world through these layers. Only youkai. If we use your interpretation, it would be in direct conflict with the information in the text, none of which backs up what you're saying. If there is proof, show me. If not, shut up.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways, as stated before, given that we have no metric available to determine youkai's layer control and what abilities that grants, as well as who gets them, my suggestion is that all youkai should receive a 'possibly' rating for these abilities.

Again, I'm open to differing suggestions. So long as those suggestions aren't "throw everything in the trash because it's wank and flowery language".

some input from other touhou supporters would nice too yknow, i cant handle all this shit by myself

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Maybe the justification could be something like Possibly Physics Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, and Empathic Manipulation (It's been stated that most youkai can control the world through the physical and mental layers; the physical layer determines the laws of physics and gravity, while the mental layer controls the soul and emotions. However, it should be noted that it is impossible to know exactly which youkai this applies to, as well as the extent to which they have these abilities)

A bit wordy but it needs to be thorough I think.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I personally wouldn't mind some of the abilities or manipulations being stated as only possibly, and maybe we leave them as non-combat applicable abilities since they're too vague for us to know exactly how they're used.

Also Fuji, you might want to take a step back for an hour or so. You're getting too heated, and aggression torwards the opposition won't help either side. I would hate to see you get reported or banned.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thank you.

I am still of the opinion that since this manipulation exists to some extent, we cannot throw it out entirely, but neither can we definitively say the extent to which it exists. So listing it as 'possibly', 'limited', or 'non-combat applicable' would all be valid changes. I personally lean towards a 'possibly' rating, as stated above.

I will be retiring for the night, so do not bother me about this further tonight.

And I still believe Hecatia_Gaming and Onsokuno_Sonic's opinions would be appreciated, as Hecatia is the one who brought the layer system up in the first place, and Onsokuno was the one who applied the system to youkai.