It should be fine with this one since it's hax related. The wiki is a lot stricter with physical stats hax is usually more straightforward. Plus the issue was that the mods aren't too knowledgeable on the verse so they were a bit weary iirc.
We can only hope.
Sorry if you put this at the thread during the beginning (I haven't slept for about 3 days) but there are two statements of sakuya possessing magical energy and she's able to harm spiritual things like phantoms so that's also add more credence to the idea.
The point is that these aren't specific to each character. Byakuren can use magic to amp her statistics, yes, but so can other characters. I think it's worth noting that the abilities listed in a character's ability section doesn't have to be unique to them; Marisa's specialty is lasers, but basically everyone in the series makes use of lasers. Mokou's specialty is fire manipulation and immortality, but multiple other characters use fire based attacks and are immortal. Yukari's specialty is conceptual manipulation, but every god in the series can do the same. Characters don't have a monopoly on the ability they're listed as having.
Yeah, but we're not gonna give every character Fire Manipulation and Immortality because more than one of them can. I wasn't talking about Temperament shit either. We can't use characters who specifically have mind manipulation as one of their signature abilities to prove that everyone can actually manipulate minds because they all happen to use magic, that's not how anything works. And that's not to say that they can't **** with the mental layer, just use like, proper reasoning.
Then you're quite literally just stonewalling.
"Giving names and meanings to a duel" and "the meaning itself becomes the attack's power" is vague as hell, and could potentially mean anything.
I already covered all that with "even if we see a magic user in 2hu hurt a spirit or soul or disembodied consciousness or abstract entity, then that's little more than non-physical interaction, and not some specialized "nonphysical attack" of any sort, unless we have verifiable proof that the magic user in question has a specific ability that allows them to manipulate spirits/souls/minds/abstractions."
Something being created from collective belief doesn't at all necessitate that it has an abstract existence.
No it doesn't. Using "spiritual power" or a power with an "inner" spiritual component to do things is what every other shonen has, and we're not giving any of them soul manipulation just because of that.
Controlling your own inner spirit to do magic tricks or quasi-magical energy blasts is something that practically every shonen does, and it doesn't, in any way, count as "soul manipulation". This is functionally and fundamentally identical to arguing that Ichigo can manipulate souls simply because he can control reiatsu, Naruto can control spiritual essences simply because he can control chakra, or that Son Goku can rip out someone's soul from their body simply because he can manipulate ki.
Why do you agree? The "temperament" argument frankly isn't based on anything cogent, for reasons I've already explained above.
Sounds arbitrary and ridiculous. A "were"-youkai is still a youkai.
Oh yeah I forgot about that. My bad. My underlying point still stands that mind manipulation is treated as a special ability and not a general power inherent to those who use magic in 2hu.
If so, then I don't really see a problem with that right now.
That just means that emotions and "temperaments" are something that Tenshi Hinanawi can convert into spiritual energy, which is something treated as an ability unique to Tenshi. It doesn't mean that emotion manipulation is something you inherently have just from using the "mental layer" to do things.
Even if they were "actively controlling their own temperament", it wouldn't mean anything. "Self-soul/self-spirit manipulation" is...what even is that? Does that even amount to anything other than maybe soul manipulation resistance? And if "controlling their own temperament" just comes down to controlling their own emotions, then that's nothing particularly different from what a regular human being can do.
| 妖怪退治では、肉体にダメージを与える武器ではなく、何か『謂われ』のある武器が望ましい。 | In extermination, one does not use weapons that cause physical damage. Weapons with an "origin" are more preferable. | |
| 妖怪は、名前や言い伝え等、精神的な攻撃に弱い。 | Youkai are weak to spiritual attacks such as names or traditions. |
Yes, and a werewolf is still a wolf, but only on the full moon. It's human the other 29 days out of the month.
...You're the one who made the claim that youkai can't be non-physical or made of spirit because people can physically interact with them. Don't backtrack now.
Why exactly are we assuming Tenshi's ability to control temperament is unique when we know that every single person who can use magic also uses temperament? Also, never is it shown or stated that this is unique to Tenshi. You would need evidence of that, and we all know that's never happening.
Resistance to soul and empathic manipulation at the very least. Not that that's relevant, since Tenshi demonstrates that temperament manipulation is far from limited to just oneself. It can easily affect other people as well.
It's still a monster at it's core, is what I'm getting at. And we still have the human merchants of the Road of Liminality physically interacting with youkai, so there's that.
I thought you meant that nearly everyone "combat relevant" in the verse already has non-physical interaction, which I was willing to accept. If you just meant everyone in general, including the humans of the Human Village and the Road of Liminality, then that's just nonsense....You're the one who made the claim that youkai can't be non-physical or made of spirit because people can physically interact with them. Don't backtrack now.
Why exactly are you assuming that Tenshi being able to control other people's "temperaments" scales to all magic users just because those magic users can control their own "temperaments"? Self-spirit control is not the same as soul/spirit/emotion manipulation.
And as far as we know, only Tenshi has shown the ability to control the temperaments of other people. We can't equalize powersets just because the people with those powersets use the same UES.
Meh, I'm fine with this.
This is an assumption and nothing portrayed or suggested so no.
You mean like directly manipulating one's own "spirit" or soul to perform magic?
We're not. We're equalizing the one part of the magic system that is a constant factor regardless of who uses magic, in the same sense that Ki users in Dragon Ball all logically have Ki manipulation. Magic requires the manipulation of temperament, therefore any magic users can manipulate the things it embodies (magic and emotions). That's no longer the debate here; it's a matter of if that manipulation is solely internal or if it is external as well.
That's... not how lycanthropy works. Also, we never see regular humans and youkai physically interact. There are more ways to interact than physical touching, you know. In fact, we're doing one of them right now.
It's not unique to Tenshi, is the thing. Bear with me here.
I was saying it in the sense that if you can control your own soul, you could reasonably fight back against, say, having your soul ripped out. Also, if they aren't controlling their own soul, but also not controlling other people's souls, then whose souls are they controlling? Because they have to be getting that temperament from somewhere.
We're not giving everyone every ability that magic is capable of. We're only granting them abilities related to the fundamental aspects that magic is inherently tied to: the mind and soul. You cannot perform magic without some degree of temperament manipulation, and temperament is the soul and mind (I've lost track of how many times I've repeated this point).
(updated)
I know this and that's the issue I have with it. They aren't manipulating those things directly, just the thing they make up. This is the equivalent of me giving every ghost in Danny Phantom Mind Manipulation because they manipulate ectoplasmic energy which directly contains their consciousness and is default apart of their ectoplasmic energy and required.
Magic simply has "temperament" as a component, nothing more. Using magic doesn't mean you can manipulate emotions or souls or "temperaments" by default. Your argument is akin to saying that Dragon Ball characters can manipulate life itself and control another person's strength and mental state by default, solely due to the fact that ki in Dragon Ball is a life-force that "embodies" vigor, courage, and right-mindedness.
You mean that all those youkai who have been said to eat humans in 2hu weren't physically interacting with them? The youkais that trade with regular human merchents in the Road of Liminality weren't physically interacting with them? The onis that used to constantly challenge humans weren't physically interacting with them?
And now you're just grasping at straws.It's not unique to Tenshi, is the thing. Bear with me here.
First things first, temperament is equivalent to spirit. We know this because Tenshi's spell cards equalize the two and use the same kanji interchangeably (気質).
Then we also have ki (気), the kanji for which is the same as spirit. So we can equalize ki to the other magic colloquialisms as well. So now the equalization chain is magic = sorcery = spells = spirit = temperament = ki, because ZUN has decided that nothing in my life should be easy. So now we need to prove that characters can manipulate/absorb (insert UES name here) that exists outside their own body.
A small bit of supporting evidence here (NOT the main argument, before you hyperfocus on this point) is that magic users are sensitive to changes in temperament. So they can obviously at least sense temperament outside their own bodies.
...Actually, I just realized this could qualify for extrasensory perception for everyone. Adding that to the list and moving on.
In SWR, one of Suika's spell cards explicitly manipulates ki veins, so that's manipulating outside instances of the UES.
We also have Takane from UM, who's ability is to manipulate the forest's ki. So she's evidently affecting temperament outside her own body as well.
Also, note that phantoms quite literally ARE temperament. This is important for a few reasons. First is that they passively exert their emotions (ie; temperament) onto anyone nearby; this further proves that temperament manipulation is not limited to one's internal reserves.
Secondly is that since phantoms are temperament, any manipulation of phantoms is manipulation of temperament by extension. We know that phantoms are the spirits of plants and animals, therefore any character with soul manipulation can reasonably be said to have control over phantoms, and by extension, temperament that exists outside their internal reserves (Reimu, Komachi, Kasen, Youmu, Yuyuko, so on and so forth).
So no, Tenshi manipulating temperament/spirit/magic/whatever the **** you wanna call it that exists outside her own body is by no means unique to her. At bare minimum it applies to phantoms, Suika, everyone who already has soul manipulation, and Takane, with no real reason to exclude everyone else. I'm sure there are other examples I missed, but it seems fairly consistent that characters can affect instances of the UES outside their own internal supply.
I probably missed a lot, and anyone else knowledgeable on this is free to help, but I'm gonna take a break after this. Too much ground to cover in too little time. I didn't even get to touch on the SWR weather fuckery.
"Temperament" is not identical to both spirit and emotions. Even the "temperaments" of the phantoms are treated as something that comes from them, and not identical to them. The way 2hu characters casually conflate "temperaments" and "phantoms" is nothing more than typical linguistic shorthand to speak of how they are associated, and it has only mild, surface level relations to how either temperaments or phantoms actually work.
I'm pretty sure it's the latter. "Temperament" in the context of magic casting seems to amount to little more than "inner mental-spiritual strength", and not something that has to "come from" anywhere else in particular.
Defuq? Look at his profile lol. And I'm not derailing, I'm taking example that's what.
...I don't know how to respond to that when I've given multiple examples of people manipulating temperament that exists outside their own reserves.
There are no direct feats that I can think of, but controlling temperament is a requirement in magic. Either we say they're using their internal reserves, or they're using some external reserves (ie; someone else's temperament). We have to pick a side here.
I'm not saying they can manipulate external temperament by default, which is why I provided all those examples of characters manipulating external temperament.
Oh my god imagine missing the point this ******* badly. A character's listed ability is not unique to them, period. Marisa's listed ability across the entire series is "using magic" for ****'s sake. In the same sense, Meiling's qi manipulation doesn't mean she's the only person in the series who can manipulate qi. Hell, Takane's mere existence shoud've made that obvious. And the "character hasn't visibly shown the ability to do (x) therefore they can't do it" argument is and always has been ******* stupid. I'm not gonna waste time debating it.
Yes, that was my entire ******* point. They're controlling the temperament that exists outside their own body to shape the environment to their will. Also, how the **** can you reasonably say that Suika's ki manipulation is unique to her and then immediately contradict yourself by bringing up someone who also manipulates ki?
No, that wasn't the ******* point, and I would appreciate it if you stopped misrepresenting my arguments. The point of that scan was to show that spirit and temperament use the same kanji, strengthening the connection between the two.
And your proof of this is...?
"And that's just how it is"? I hate to break it to you but you are not the sole determinant of Touhou canon. Either post scans that support your arguments, as I have, or stop wasting my ******* time. I do have a life, you know.
Dude oh my ******* god did you even read the scan where Komachi directly says they're the same thing? If you're going to refuse to even read my posts then why are you even here? Also nothing was ever said about having one emotion/temperament at a time, what the **** are you talking about?
...I never said 天気 had anything to do with temperament. You're just deliberately misrepresenting my arguments at this point. This is just kinda pathetic.
Controlling ki in Dragon Ball requires controlling "right-mindedness" to some extent. It doesn't mean that Dragon Ball characters have "limited mind manipulation", it just means that right-mindedness is a factor of the general "mental-spiritual strength" required to use ki blasts in Dragon Ball.
And my point was that qi (as such) was clearly differentiated from magic (as such) or "temperaments" (as such), therefore qi manipulation is not the same as magic or temperaments, qi manipulation (in any form) is clearly something relegated to a select few characters in 2hu, and we shouldn't assume any given "magician" in 2huland can control qi unless they display an ability explicitly stated to involve manipulating qi.
Because "qi" is not the same as "temperament" as such.
Any two Japanese words can share the same kanji, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have any particular connection or relation in meaning. Stop being disingenuous.
The more detailed description of the phantom/emotion/"temperament" relationship, in which emotions exude from phantoms, and phantoms are not simply being a specific emotion, and the common sense logic of the impossibility of the "spirit of a plant or animal" to embody just one emotion.
None of your scans "support" anything other than how much reaching you're capable of.
Komachi's statement I already addressed; it's no more than linguistic shorthand. And the direct 1:1 equation of "temperaments" with "phantoms" necessarily implies that phantoms embody only one specific "temperament"/emotion at any given time.
Wrong. Using spiritual strength as a component is a universal constant in magic. Characters who use magic don't need to "manipulate their own souls/minds", they just need to have high "temperament" ("mental-spiritual strength" in this context). Just because a character is cultivating ki in Dragon Ball, doesn't mean they're manipulating their own mind/spirit/soul or whatever.
You brought it up in the concept of connecting the general kanji "気" (ki) to the concept of "temperaments", spirits, and magic as a whole, even making sure to highlight the kanji "気" in "天気" (tenki), implying that "天気" has something to do with "temperaments". I'm not "misrepresenting" anything, you're just backpedaling because even you know how absurd that line of argument is.
I never said anything about equalizing powers across the board, I'm not sure where people keep getting that from. The only thing remotely close to that is scaling physical stats to magical stats, since it's been shown that using magic to enhance physical capabilities is fairly common, and just about anyone can do it.
Don't make me tap the sign.
Ah well. But idk, I don't think that making that scaling for the stats amp could be that logical.
Fair enough, but should be also remarked that their abilities are unique because they has a better or more direct usage of them. Yeah, Youmu can also manipulate space-time like Sakuya, but hers is not that "complex" or direct than Sakuya's one. Same goes with the other characters and such, well, except gods and Yukari, but that's because manipulating names is their real central ability.
