Touhou - Infinite Speed issues

[RethPo]

Touhou 17 plot is clearly absent of Komachi and Yama though, so assuming that the river's distance isn't, for living humans, infinite is actually a burden of proof should be on the side that should prove it's otherwise. (Again, Marisa pre-18th key is pretty much an ordinary human with magic lol)

The yama allowed it

Ill prolly make a very short response to angelz later on the bits that matter. But imma feeling the side effects of mah jabs right now so, laters.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

The yama allowed it

Ill prolly make a very short response to angelz later on the bits that matter. But imma feeling the side effects of mah jabs right now so, laters.

Except, Kutaka isn't the Shinigami. Not a character with the distance manipulation, so to say, and most importantly; she encounters with protagonists as they arrive to Higan, not on Sanzu River. Not to mention in PoFV profile of Komachi, it is stated that the river's depth and width changes depending on her mood, not Yama's, to be precise..:

When a person dies, their spirit will cross the river. Komachi lectures the dead on how to cross it. The width and depth of the river changes depending on her mood.

And if Eiki could do what Komachi could with a single word or thought, why would she rely on a lazy ass Shinigami to ferry all the souls rather than allowing these souls to gradually come by? She was even annoyed by the fact that there were too many souls at bay in Sanzu River, again, due to Komachi being too lazy and working at her own accord, and again, according to PoFV profile of Komachi which quotes as such:

The reason Gensokyo got buried under a sea of flowers this time was because her workload went way beyond what she could handle. There were so many dead spirits that some of them were not handled in time and were left in Gensokyo, and in this puzzled state these dead spirits possessed nearby flowers.

Komachi thought that it was just a temporary issue, and worked at her own pace without the slightest bit of worry. However, it soon caught the eye of her boss, Eiki, and she got a good scolding because of that.

As well as PoFV's plot point being all about this, because Komachi is the only one that can manipulate distance at the moment as we know in Touhou Series, as the only known Shinigami that ferries the souls across within the series..:

When the "flower incident" first occurred, she wasn't particularly bothered or worried about it. Instead, she simply carried on at her usual pace, occasionally even running away from work at times. Because of this, the huge quantity of spirits that arrived on the banks of the Sanzu River were not brought across the river to stand before the Yama. This in turn led to flowers of every season blooming as they became possessed by these unjudged souls.

Now, guessing exactly who was absent throughout the journey, is up to you. But as a hint, some characters, i.e Marisa, the least haxed one among the playable characters, explicitly stated this as well.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Reading this, I disagree with the OP. It seems that on the wiki there is a personal hatred against Touhou infinite speed lol

 

[RethPo]

Except, Kutaka isn't the Shinigami. Not a character with the distance manipulation, so to say, and most importantly; she encounters with protagonists as they arrive to Higan, not on Sanzu River. Not to mention in PoFV profile of Komachi, it is stated that the river's depth and width changes depending on her mood, not Yama's, to be precise..:

"The river is infinite by default unless proven otherwise"
"Oh no, proof. Um, actually it completely varies depending on the mood of komachi"

Dude. Youre completely contradicting yourself. If something as uncontrollable as mood can affect the rivers size then theres no reason to call it infinite by default.
Are we seriously just gonna act like eiki has no way of contacting her own employee to change the size of the river to allow someone through?

 

[RethPo]

Reading this, I disagree with the OP. It seems that on the wiki there is a personal hatred against Touhou infinite speed lol

Also why does opposition on this thread seem to act like the wiki hates infinite speed and make a big deal about it as if were nuking it entirely when were not? A lot of this just feels like stonewalling at this point.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Also why does opposition on this thread seem to act like the wiki hates infinite speed and make a big deal about it as if were nuking it entirely when were not? A lot of this just feels like stonewalling at this point.

I said that last part joking more than anything lol, but seriously sometimes it seems like this wiki hate this speed for so many times it has been discussed with the same arguments and infinite speed always comes out victorious lol

 

[RethPo]

I said that last part joking more than anything lol, but seriously sometimes it seems like this wiki hate this speed for so many times it has been discussed with the same arguments and infinite speed always comes out victorious lol

Fair enough. Idk whats gone on the past few years so i cant say much on that front lol

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

can’t believe I missed touhou infinite speed 2: electric boogaloo

I disagree with this, and the Sanzu River one especially. The nature of the river is very cut and dry and is even explained by Ran’s equation. Her math would literally be incorrect if it wasn’t infinite to any extent.

The idea that the protagonists were aided in the crossing in WBaWC is wrong. Kutaka cannot change the shape of the river and has never been stated to have the spacial manipulating abilities of the shinigami.

The fact of the matter is that the protagonists did not pay the ferrywoman, resulting in an infinitely large river.

Bear in mind this is just from memory so I might be forgetting things.

 

[RethPo]

Like i said though, eiki approved it so why wouldnt she just contact komachi to make the river more passable? Thats like a manager of a building approving for someone to enter a room and not asking security to lend them the keys

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Well, that could have happened.

But we can’t say for sure. We could just as easily say that the river crossing was another part of Eiki’s trial.

Strictly sticking to statements, nothing mentions Eiki or Komachi interfering at all.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

"The river is infinite by default unless proven otherwise"
"Oh no, proof. Um, actually it completely varies depending on the mood of komachi"

Dude. Youre completely contradicting yourself. If something as uncontrollable as mood can affect the rivers size then theres no reason to call it infinite by default.
Are we seriously just gonna act like eiki has no way of contacting her own employee to change the size of the river to allow someone through?

"Mood" is literally taken into context that whether Komachi is willing to do her job or not, what the fork? She literally slacked even when Sanzu River's one side was overflowing with souls to the point of some of them not being able to leave Gensokyo at all.

Also, if Eiki could, then PoFV incident wouldn't. Hecking. Happen in the first place. So there's that, too.

 

[Deidalius]

A friend of mine has a question for the Touhou people in the thread. He's reading the thread so he'll see the response y'all will give.

 

[StrymULTRA]

A friend of mine has a question for the Touhou people in the thread. He's reading the thread so he'll see the response y'all will give.

This is basically asking "if videogame characters fast, why I can still see their movements?"

If in-game they move that fast, then the game would be unplayable given that the characters would be so fast that we wouldn't be able to control them properly. This would happen even if the characters are MFTL+.

 

[Spinoirr]

A friend of mine has a question for the Touhou people in the thread. He's reading the thread so he'll see the response y'all will give.

In Universe they fallow a set of rules when battling

Probably also includes speed too

 

[Deidalius]

In Universe they fallow a set of rules when battling

Probably also includes speed too

I have seen the Touhou supporters in this site argue that the spell card rules don't apply to speed so they all fight at infinite speeds against each other regardless of power level differences, so the fairies are infinite speed and yari yara.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

In Universe they fallow a set of rules when battling

Probably also includes speed too

The rules are to make non-lethal battles and beautiful patterns

Nothing is ever said about hold back speed

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nothing is ever said about hold back speed

I mean, they would if the opponent is too slow

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I mean, they would if the opponent is too slow

Maybe, but that's just a guess.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Maybe, but that's just a guess.

I mean, if the entire basis of them not scaling in AP is "well they hold back to avoid insta-killing them", then why isn't speed treated with the same regard?

 

[Quibster]

A friend of mine has a question for the Touhou people in the thread. He's reading the thread so he'll see the response y'all will give.

Is your friend on the wiki?

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I mean, if the entire basis of them not scaling in AP is "well they hold back to avoid insta-killing them", then why isn't speed treated with the same regard?

Because it has never been stated in the verse that they also hold back their speed, and to assume that they do too is to assume too much.

 

[Deidalius]

Is your friend on the wiki?

I don't think he is, he might be struggling to make an account or maybe he hasn't. I should probably help him or something.

Whoops, it seems I'll be acting as the messenger of an oomfie that can't talk in the wiki.

This is basically asking "if videogame characters fast, why I can still see their movements?"

If in-game they move that fast, then the game would be unplayable given that the characters would be so fast that we wouldn't be able to control them properly. This would happen even if the characters are MFTL+.

"> This is basically asking "if videogame characters fast, why I can still see their movements?"
>> If in-game they move that fast, then the game would be unplayable given that the characters would be so fast that we wouldn't be able to control them properly. This would happen even if the characters are MFTL+.

I know, one can assume that the characters perceive speed in a different way, but I think this excuse applies mostly to fighting, and I don't think Spell Cards have too much influence on this... I mean, if all of them have infinite speed, how is one faster than the other?

In Touhou, the characters are traveling from one point to another, so their infinite speed should allow them to do so instantly. In addition, some characters want to resolve incidents as fast as possible.

Perhaps I should have added that the same thing happens in manga."

This is what that same friend said ^

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because it has never been stated in the verse that they also hold back their speed, and to assume that they do too is to assume too much.

Pretty sure that Touhou has some Dragon Ball-like UES thing where speed and strenght increase alongside each other. Might need confirmation on that though.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

I don't think he is, he might be struggling to make an account or maybe he hasn't. I should probably help him or something.

Whoops, it seems I'll be acting as the messenger of an oomfie that can't talk in the wiki.

"> This is basically asking "if videogame characters fast, why I can still see their movements?"
>> If in-game they move that fast, then the game would be unplayable given that the characters would be so fast that we wouldn't be able to control them properly. This would happen even if the characters are MFTL+.

I know, one can assume that the characters perceive speed in a different way, but I think this excuse applies mostly to fighting, and I don't think Spell Cards have too much influence on this... I mean, if all of them have infinite speed, how is one faster than the other?

In Touhou, the characters are traveling from one point to another, so their infinite speed should allow them to do so instantly. In addition, some characters want to resolve incidents as fast as possible.

Perhaps I should have added that the same thing happens in manga."

This is what that same friend said ^

It's because Infinite speed, for the characters, ain't an easy feat to achieve. In example of Touhou 19.5, a character whom needs to pass through the route of Sanzu River > Higan > Hell; complains about the sheer length of the journey she needs to take. It's more like an upper cap of what they can do rather than being their base.

As for the incident resolving thing, you see, there needs to be some clue collection (and plot, duh) needed to progress through the stages and let the game have its playability remain intact.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I know, one can assume that the characters perceive speed in a different way, but I think this excuse applies mostly to fighting, and I don't think Spell Cards have too much influence on this... I mean, if all of them have infinite speed, how is one faster than the other?

In Touhou, the characters are traveling from one point to another, so their infinite speed should allow them to do so instantly. In addition, some characters want to resolve incidents as fast as possible.

Perhaps I should have added that the same thing happens in manga."

This is what that same friend said ^

Just because all characters have infinite speed does not mean that there cannot be some faster than others. FOR EXAMPLE FROM ANOTHER VERSE, Sonic and Tails have infinite speed but obviously Sonic is faster, and in Touhou the same thing happens, Aya is faster than Reimu for example


And with the second, again the fact that in the gameplay it is not seen that they travel from one place to another instantly does not mean that it is not like that. And the times that there has been several travel time in Touhou are simply game mechanics/outliers, like in Touhou 8 that took hours between each stage (If they were even FTL it would have been a few minutes or even seconds and since the verse has been shown to be AT LEAST FTL several times, this is simply
game mechanics/outlier)

If someone wanted to debunk the speed of the characters based on travel time outliers (For example, characters who have demonstrated about 10 times that they have FTL/infinite speed, taking 2 hours to travel a few kilometers) they would have to debunk 80% of the fiction

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

This is kind of off topic but it’s interesting so I’ll add my two cents.

No, I don’t think Touhou characters are fighting at infinite speed all the time. This would make something like Marisa’s Master Spark pretty redundant since it only travels at the speed of light. And, as Speedblitzer mentioned, there are canon travel times (ex: Imperishable Night) that are quite lengthy.

I wouldn’t say this is a valid debunk, but more so showing how they don’t always move or fight at their top speed. After all, that being the case would contradict the meaning of Spellcard battles (no meaning in speedblitzing someone into oblivion) and directly oppose canon travel times.

 

[Arkenis]

Don't know much about Touhou but from what I read this all seems good.

No, I don’t think Touhou characters are fighting at infinite speed all the time. This would make something like Marisa’s Master Spark pretty redundant since it only travels at the speed of light. And, as Speedblitzer mentioned, there are canon travel times (ex: Imperishable Night) that are quite lengthy.

If this is true then maybe a varies or an at most rating could be applied for infinite speed characters?

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Don't know much about Touhou but from what I read this all seems good.


If this is true then maybe a varies or an at most rating could be applied for infinite speed characters?

Depends on the requirements for such a rating.

I don’t see why you’d put anything other than just Infinite speed given the feats. But I may be misunderstanding.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

This is kind of off topic but it’s interesting so I’ll add my two cents.

No, I don’t think Touhou characters are fighting at infinite speed all the time. This would make something like Marisa’s Master Spark pretty redundant since it only travels at the speed of light. And, as Speedblitzer mentioned, there are canon travel times (ex: Imperishable Night) that are quite lengthy.

I wouldn’t say this is a valid debunk, but more so showing how they don’t always move or fight at their top speed. After all, that being the case would contradict the meaning of Spellcard battles (no meaning in speedblitzing someone into oblivion) and directly oppose canon travel times.

They are in a hurry during incidents, they would want to travel and fight as fast as possible, so if they would be using their infinite speed (And the travel time would be game mechanics/outliers)

And it's pretty bruh to assume that the
master spark only moves at the speed of light, if Marisa has infinite speed then her danmaku and master spark too or else the opponents will dodge it, it is like saying that Goku is MFTL+ but his Kamehameha is hypersonic (Not to mention that Marisa can use master spark while flying through Kaguya's infinite corridor)

And on the last thing, there are fast characters who DO speedblitz the others during spell card battles,
like Youmu on this occasion who moves so fast that she looks Yuyuko completely freeze

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

They are in a hurry during incidents, they would want to travel and fight as fast as possible, so if they would be using their infinite speed (And the travel time would be game mechanics/outliers)

And it's pretty bruh to assume that the
master spark only moves at the speed of light, if Marisa has infinite speed then her danmaku and master spark too or else the opponents will dodge it, it is like saying that Goku is MFTL+ but his Kamehameha is hypersonic (Not to mention that Marisa can use master spark while flying through Kaguya's infinite corridor)

And on the last thing, there are fast characters who DO speedblitz the others during spell card battles,
like Youmu on this occasion who moves so fast that she looks Yuyuko completely freeze

That’s not speedblitzing I don’t think. She’s moving much faster but they’re still given the opportunity to win (and Reimu does).

About the Marisa thing, Marisa describes it as light and her dodging it seems to be commonly accepted as an FTL feat. Don’t feel very strongly about it either way.

 

[Deidalius]

Don't know much about Touhou but from what I read this all seems good.


If this is true then maybe a varies or an at most rating could be applied for infinite speed characters?

I'm pretty certain the varies rating only applies for characters that have a canonical reason to why their speed varies so much, not just because of inconsistencies

Like, Hulk is an example of the varies rating, his strength canonically fluctuates a lot and varies a lot so he goes from like, planet level to beyond multiversal and shit

 

[Quibster]

Don't know much about Touhou but from what I read this all seems good.

If this is true then maybe a varies or an at most rating could be applied for infinite speed characters?

I don't think it's necessary. By this logic; it can be applied to DBH and other verses with infinite or higher speeds. The standards for infinite speed also cover this anyways;

Last section under "On Infinite Speed, Immeasurable Speed and How They Compare"

When it comes to scaling such speed to other attacks or characters a high amount of scrutiny is necessary. Often these speeds don't scale to any regular attack or other characters. Fictions tend to prove this fact by the attacks and/or movement of characters not starting and finishing simultanously, even if the characters are moving a finite distance, despite the fact that this should be the case for infinitely fast characters.

Edit: wrong section and didnt link by mistake

 

[StrymULTRA]

I still have the concern of everyone being literally scaled to infinite speed.

2-C ones are ok, sure? But lower ones? That does sound sus.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

That’s not speedblitzing I don’t think. She’s moving much faster but they’re still given the opportunity to win (and Reimu does).

About the Marisa thing, Marisa describes it as light and her dodging it seems to be

Just because it is a light attack does not mean that it is only speed of light, there are many other characters in fiction with infinite speeds who use light attacks and it would be ridiculous to think that those attacks only move at the speed of light. The most logical thing is to think that they move at infinite speed or else it would bring many outliers and problems

Please don't think that the main attack of an infinite speed character is only SOL because it is made of light
please lol

(Damn the message is bugged)

 

[RethPo]

But we can’t say for sure. We could just as easily say that the river crossing was another part of Eiki’s trial.

Why would eiki put them through trials when shes already approved for them to go through? This is seeming pretty headcannon and assumption based.

"Mood" is literally taken into context that whether Komachi is willing to do her job or not, what the fork? She literally slacked even when Sanzu River's one side was overflowing with souls to the point of some of them not being able to leave Gensokyo at all.

Also, if Eiki could, then PoFV incident wouldn't. Hecking. Happen in the first place. So there's that, too.

She literally contacted komachi calling her a slacker after her fight with the protagonists. She obviously contacted her when it was already too late. Also its normally the ferrying that she slacks off on. Its really not hard for her to just change the river on a whim.
Again, the only reason the touhou 9 feat is useable is the fact that they werent trying to let them pass. The touhou 17 feat has nothing at all to support it being infinite at the time and doesnt make sense for it to be. Are you seriously expecting her to just say "by the way i got komachi to make the river finite for you" out of the blue?

 

[RethPo]

Also for the speed thing. Spellcard fights need to have their attacks dodgeable as part of the rules so yes, characters can and would hold back their speed in non serious fights.

To make this thread easier, would it be better for me to make an quick and easy to understand summary for the staff whove agreed on mftl possibly infinite speed and see what their takes are? With both sides obviously.

 

[Quibster]

2-C ones are ok, sure? But lower ones? That does sound sus.

Most characters below 2-C have FTL+ ratings (scaling off of the fact that they scale higher most of the time) with a "possibly" rating for Infinite speed, typically due to their encounters with high-tiers like Reimu and Marisa, or through scaling with mid-tier characters who are repeatedly presented as credible threats to the protagonists.

Why would eiki put them through trials when shes already approved for them to go through? This is seeming pretty headcannon and assumption based.

Relax, this isn’t headcanon. Kutaka literally states that she was instructed by the Yama (Eiki) to test the protagonists before they enter Hell. At this point, the protagonists had already crossed the Sanzu River and are in Higan, preparing to enter Hell. However they are stopped by Kutaka;

Edit: We also know that it's Eiki, because she is shown and given dialogue in one of Youmu's endings. The Kanji in the illustration by ZUN translates to; Yama in Charge of Gensokyo, Eiki Shiki: Yamaxanadu

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Also for the speed thing. Spellcard fights need to have their attacks dodgeable as part of the rules so yes, characters can and would hold back their speed in non serious fights.

Dodgeable attacks refer to creating dodgeable patterns, not slowing them down.

 

[StrymULTRA]

or through scaling with mid-tier characters who are repeatedly presented as credible threats to the protagonists.

If those are actual threats even outside the spell card rules, then alr ig.

 

[RethPo]

Relax, this isn't headcanon. Kutaka literally says that she was to test the protagonists before they enter Hell by the Yama (Eiki). At this time, the Protagonists had already crossed the Sanzu and are in Higan, crossing into Hell.

Posts like this makes me wish this forum had a better image posting ui
Okay so she was putting them through a trial. But this wasnt related to the river and it sounds like she wanted them to actually meet with kutaka instead of making the river almost inaccessible soooo...

Dodgeable attacks refer to creating dodgeable patterns, not slowing them down.

Throws a danmaku pattern infinitely faster than what you can react to at you. Very dogeable

The only instance of a "lower tier" scaling in speed to high tiers is moon rabbits who are possibly high 6-A so people like fairies dont have much reason to scale.
Especially when this makes everybody and their mother in the entire series infinite speed including fairies and humans which is just a fat outlier.