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The yama allowed it
Ill prolly make a very short response to angelz later on the bits that matter. But imma feeling the side effects of mah jabs right now so, laters.
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Touhou - Infinite Speed issues
- Thread starter Saikou_The_Lewd_King
- Start date
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- Tags
- speed touhou project
Ill prolly make a very short response to angelz later on the bits that matter. But imma feeling the side effects of mah jabs right now so, laters.
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Except, Kutaka isn't the Shinigami. Not a character with the distance manipulation, so to say, and most importantly; she encounters with protagonists as they arrive to Higan, not on Sanzu River. Not to mention in PoFV profile of Komachi, it is stated that the river's depth and width changes depending on her mood, not Yama's, to be precise..:
And if Eiki could do what Komachi could with a single word or thought, why would she rely on a lazy ass Shinigami to ferry all the souls rather than allowing these souls to gradually come by? She was even annoyed by the fact that there were too many souls at bay in Sanzu River, again, due to Komachi being too lazy and working at her own accord, and again, according to PoFV profile of Komachi which quotes as such:
As well as PoFV's plot point being all about this, because Komachi is the only one that can manipulate distance at the moment as we know in Touhou Series, as the only known Shinigami that ferries the souls across within the series..:
Now, guessing exactly who was absent throughout the journey, is up to you. But as a hint, some characters, i.e Marisa, the least haxed one among the playable characters, explicitly stated this as well.
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Speedblitzer50
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Reading this, I disagree with the OP. It seems that on the wiki there is a personal hatred against Touhou infinite speed lol
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"The river is infinite by default unless proven otherwise"
"Oh no, proof. Um, actually it completely varies depending on the mood of komachi"
Dude. Youre completely contradicting yourself. If something as uncontrollable as mood can affect the rivers size then theres no reason to call it infinite by default.
Are we seriously just gonna act like eiki has no way of contacting her own employee to change the size of the river to allow someone through?
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Also why does opposition on this thread seem to act like the wiki hates infinite speed and make a big deal about it as if were nuking it entirely when were not? A lot of this just feels like stonewalling at this point.
Speedblitzer50
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I said that last part joking more than anything lol, but seriously sometimes it seems like this wiki hate this speed for so many times it has been discussed with the same arguments and infinite speed always comes out victorious lol
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Fair enough. Idk whats gone on the past few years so i cant say much on that front lol
MeWhenEasyModo
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I disagree with this, and the Sanzu River one especially. The nature of the river is very cut and dry and is even explained by Ran’s equation. Her math would literally be incorrect if it wasn’t infinite to any extent.
The idea that the protagonists were aided in the crossing in WBaWC is wrong. Kutaka cannot change the shape of the river and has never been stated to have the spacial manipulating abilities of the shinigami.
The fact of the matter is that the protagonists did not pay the ferrywoman, resulting in an infinitely large river.
Bear in mind this is just from memory so I might be forgetting things.
MeWhenEasyModo
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Well, that could have happened.
But we can’t say for sure. We could just as easily say that the river crossing was another part of Eiki’s trial.
Strictly sticking to statements, nothing mentions Eiki or Komachi interfering at all.
But we can’t say for sure. We could just as easily say that the river crossing was another part of Eiki’s trial.
Strictly sticking to statements, nothing mentions Eiki or Komachi interfering at all.
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"Mood" is literally taken into context that whether Komachi is willing to do her job or not, what the fork? She literally slacked even when Sanzu River's one side was overflowing with souls to the point of some of them not being able to leave Gensokyo at all.
Also, if Eiki could, then PoFV incident wouldn't. Hecking. Happen in the first place. So there's that, too.
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This is basically asking "if videogame characters fast, why I can still see their movements?"A friend of mine has a question for the Touhou people in the thread. He's reading the thread so he'll see the response y'all will give.
If in-game they move that fast, then the game would be unplayable given that the characters would be so fast that we wouldn't be able to control them properly. This would happen even if the characters are MFTL+.
Spinoirr
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In Universe they fallow a set of rules when battlingA friend of mine has a question for the Touhou people in the thread. He's reading the thread so he'll see the response y'all will give.
Probably also includes speed too
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I have seen the Touhou supporters in this site argue that the spell card rules don't apply to speed so they all fight at infinite speeds against each other regardless of power level differences, so the fairies are infinite speed and yari yara.
Speedblitzer50
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The rules are to make non-lethal battles and beautiful patterns
Nothing is ever said about hold back speed
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Speedblitzer50
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Maybe, but that's just a guess.
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I mean, if the entire basis of them not scaling in AP is "well they hold back to avoid insta-killing them", then why isn't speed treated with the same regard?
Quibster
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Is your friend on the wiki?A friend of mine has a question for the Touhou people in the thread. He's reading the thread so he'll see the response y'all will give.
Speedblitzer50
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Because it has never been stated in the verse that they also hold back their speed, and to assume that they do too is to assume too much.
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I don't think he is, he might be struggling to make an account or maybe he hasn't. I should probably help him or something.
Whoops, it seems I'll be acting as the messenger of an oomfie that can't talk in the wiki.
"> This is basically asking "if videogame characters fast, why I can still see their movements?"
>> If in-game they move that fast, then the game would be unplayable given that the characters would be so fast that we wouldn't be able to control them properly. This would happen even if the characters are MFTL+.
I know, one can assume that the characters perceive speed in a different way, but I think this excuse applies mostly to fighting, and I don't think Spell Cards have too much influence on this... I mean, if all of them have infinite speed, how is one faster than the other?
In Touhou, the characters are traveling from one point to another, so their infinite speed should allow them to do so instantly. In addition, some characters want to resolve incidents as fast as possible.
Perhaps I should have added that the same thing happens in manga."
This is what that same friend said ^
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Pretty sure that Touhou has some Dragon Ball-like UES thing where speed and strenght increase alongside each other. Might need confirmation on that though.
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It's because Infinite speed, for the characters, ain't an easy feat to achieve. In example of Touhou 19.5, a character whom needs to pass through the route of Sanzu River > Higan > Hell; complains about the sheer length of the journey she needs to take. It's more like an upper cap of what they can do rather than being their base.
As for the incident resolving thing, you see, there needs to be some clue collection (and plot, duh) needed to progress through the stages and let the game have its playability remain intact.
Speedblitzer50
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Just because all characters have infinite speed does not mean that there cannot be some faster than others. FOR EXAMPLE FROM ANOTHER VERSE, Sonic and Tails have infinite speed but obviously Sonic is faster, and in Touhou the same thing happens, Aya is faster than Reimu for example
And with the second, again the fact that in the gameplay it is not seen that they travel from one place to another instantly does not mean that it is not like that. And the times that there has been several travel time in Touhou are simply game mechanics/outliers, like in Touhou 8 that took hours between each stage (If they were even FTL it would have been a few minutes or even seconds and since the verse has been shown to be AT LEAST FTL several times, this is simply
game mechanics/outlier)
If someone wanted to debunk the speed of the characters based on travel time outliers (For example, characters who have demonstrated about 10 times that they have FTL/infinite speed, taking 2 hours to travel a few kilometers) they would have to debunk 80% of the fiction
MeWhenEasyModo
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This is kind of off topic but it’s interesting so I’ll add my two cents.
No, I don’t think Touhou characters are fighting at infinite speed all the time. This would make something like Marisa’s Master Spark pretty redundant since it only travels at the speed of light. And, as Speedblitzer mentioned, there are canon travel times (ex: Imperishable Night) that are quite lengthy.
I wouldn’t say this is a valid debunk, but more so showing how they don’t always move or fight at their top speed. After all, that being the case would contradict the meaning of Spellcard battles (no meaning in speedblitzing someone into oblivion) and directly oppose canon travel times.
No, I don’t think Touhou characters are fighting at infinite speed all the time. This would make something like Marisa’s Master Spark pretty redundant since it only travels at the speed of light. And, as Speedblitzer mentioned, there are canon travel times (ex: Imperishable Night) that are quite lengthy.
I wouldn’t say this is a valid debunk, but more so showing how they don’t always move or fight at their top speed. After all, that being the case would contradict the meaning of Spellcard battles (no meaning in speedblitzing someone into oblivion) and directly oppose canon travel times.
Arkenis
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Don't know much about Touhou but from what I read this all seems good.
If this is true then maybe a varies or an at most rating could be applied for infinite speed characters?
MeWhenEasyModo
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Depends on the requirements for such a rating.
I don’t see why you’d put anything other than just Infinite speed given the feats. But I may be misunderstanding.
Speedblitzer50
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They are in a hurry during incidents, they would want to travel and fight as fast as possible, so if they would be using their infinite speed (And the travel time would be game mechanics/outliers)
And it's pretty bruh to assume that the
master spark only moves at the speed of light, if Marisa has infinite speed then her danmaku and master spark too or else the opponents will dodge it, it is like saying that Goku is MFTL+ but his Kamehameha is hypersonic (Not to mention that Marisa can use master spark while flying through Kaguya's infinite corridor)
And on the last thing, there are fast characters who DO speedblitz the others during spell card battles,
like Youmu on this occasion who moves so fast that she looks Yuyuko completely freeze
MeWhenEasyModo
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That’s not speedblitzing I don’t think. She’s moving much faster but they’re still given the opportunity to win (and Reimu does).
About the Marisa thing, Marisa describes it as light and her dodging it seems to be commonly accepted as an FTL feat. Don’t feel very strongly about it either way.
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I'm pretty certain the varies rating only applies for characters that have a canonical reason to why their speed varies so much, not just because of inconsistencies
Like, Hulk is an example of the varies rating, his strength canonically fluctuates a lot and varies a lot so he goes from like, planet level to beyond multiversal and shit
Quibster
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I don't think it's necessary. By this logic; it can be applied to DBH and other verses with infinite or higher speeds. The standards for infinite speed also cover this anyways;
Last section under "On Infinite Speed, Immeasurable Speed and How They Compare"
| When it comes to scaling such speed to other attacks or characters a high amount of scrutiny is necessary. Often these speeds don't scale to any regular attack or other characters. Fictions tend to prove this fact by the attacks and/or movement of characters not starting and finishing simultanously, even if the characters are moving a finite distance, despite the fact that this should be the case for infinitely fast characters. |
Edit: wrong section and didnt link by mistake
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I still have the concern of everyone being literally scaled to infinite speed.
2-C ones are ok, sure? But lower ones? That does sound sus.
2-C ones are ok, sure? But lower ones? That does sound sus.
Speedblitzer50
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Just because it is a light attack does not mean that it is only speed of light, there are many other characters in fiction with infinite speeds who use light attacks and it would be ridiculous to think that those attacks only move at the speed of light. The most logical thing is to think that they move at infinite speed or else it would bring many outliers and problems
Please don't think that the main attack of an infinite speed character is only SOL because it is made of light
please lol
(Damn the message is bugged)
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Why would eiki put them through trials when shes already approved for them to go through? This is seeming pretty headcannon and assumption based.
She literally contacted komachi calling her a slacker after her fight with the protagonists. She obviously contacted her when it was already too late. Also its normally the ferrying that she slacks off on. Its really not hard for her to just change the river on a whim.
Again, the only reason the touhou 9 feat is useable is the fact that they werent trying to let them pass. The touhou 17 feat has nothing at all to support it being infinite at the time and doesnt make sense for it to be. Are you seriously expecting her to just say "by the way i got komachi to make the river finite for you" out of the blue?
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Also for the speed thing. Spellcard fights need to have their attacks dodgeable as part of the rules so yes, characters can and would hold back their speed in non serious fights.
To make this thread easier, would it be better for me to make an quick and easy to understand summary for the staff whove agreed on mftl possibly infinite speed and see what their takes are? With both sides obviously.
To make this thread easier, would it be better for me to make an quick and easy to understand summary for the staff whove agreed on mftl possibly infinite speed and see what their takes are? With both sides obviously.
Quibster
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Most characters below 2-C have FTL+ ratings (scaling off of the fact that they scale higher most of the time) with a "possibly" rating for Infinite speed, typically due to their encounters with high-tiers like Reimu and Marisa, or through scaling with mid-tier characters who are repeatedly presented as credible threats to the protagonists.
Relax, this isn’t headcanon. Kutaka literally states that she was instructed by the Yama (Eiki) to test the protagonists before they enter Hell. At this point, the protagonists had already crossed the Sanzu River and are in Higan, preparing to enter Hell. However they are stopped by Kutaka;
Edit: We also know that it's Eiki, because she is shown and given dialogue in one of Youmu's endings. The Kanji in the illustration by ZUN translates to; Yama in Charge of Gensokyo, Eiki Shiki: Yamaxanadu
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Speedblitzer50
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Dodgeable attacks refer to creating dodgeable patterns, not slowing them down.
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If those are actual threats even outside the spell card rules, then alr ig.
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Okay so she was putting them through a trial. But this wasnt related to the river and it sounds like she wanted them to actually meet with kutaka instead of making the river almost inaccessible soooo...
Throws a danmaku pattern infinitely faster than what you can react to at you. Very dogeable
The only instance of a "lower tier" scaling in speed to high tiers is moon rabbits who are possibly high 6-A so people like fairies dont have much reason to scale.
Especially when this makes everybody and their mother in the entire series infinite speed including fairies and humans which is just a fat outlier.
