Touhou: Amitabha controversy

[Hazerddex]

im kind of lost on who are we agurming about hecitia being tier 3 or mentioned in foot note Amitabha, or Lord Tsukuyomi whos not actucally appeared

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Hecatia being 3-A doesn't contradict her feats. Because she has none, and is way higher than all the 4-C feats. Hell, everyone who WOULD scale to Amitabha are far above the 4-C feats. It doesn't matter at all if "no one has been hinted to X". It doesn't at all. Otherwise, any series scaled from a single feat wouldn't be at that level.

The opposite, assuming that Amitabha is for some reasons part of his own group of people far above the entire verse for no reasons doesn't fly. Something you don't seem to have assimilated yet.

 

[Fllflourine]

>An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power.

Hecatia is featless and her only appearance she was literally playing around.

Do not accuse me of downplaying, I love this franchise and I'd rather actual evidence and proof for massive tier jumps or at least something better than assumptions.

Even -devout- fans can downplay.

The rest of my argument? See Saikou.

im kind of lost on who are we agurming about hecitia being tier 3 or mentioned in foot note Amitabha, or Lord Tsukuyomi whos not actucally appeared

We're removing the 3-A scaling for Tsukuyomi. Personally, I'm going for Hecatia keeping her's.

 

[Promestein]

While I don't care about this specific issue, I have to agree with Saikou here in that this isn't really an outlier, given how strong the scaled characters are. It's only rated as possibly, anyways.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

She hasn't even been implied to hold that much power being hilariously above Tier 4-C is not even remotely comparable to being quadrillions of times above universal,

I'm fine with scaling things to a singke feat, if the characters in question obviousky scale, here they don't obviously scale, in fact there's next to nothing going for it.

I'm assuming he's seperate because he's stated to exist in Paradise, which isn't Heaven, Earth, the capital or hell and saying its any of them is just an assumption, couple that with being hilariously above anything else via feats or statements, yes I'm gonna disagree with scaling.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Do not accuse me of downplaying, I love this franchise and I'd rather actual evidence and proof for massive tier jumps or at least something better than mere assumptions."

You're giving me reeeeeeeeeeal bad memories with that statement, bub.

 

[Fllflourine]

I'm fine with scaling things to a singke feat, if the characters in question obviousky scale, here they don't obviously scale, in fact there's next to nothing going for it.

Except for everything me and Saikou have said.

I'm assuming he's seperate because he's stated to exist in Paradise, which isn't Heaven, Earth, the capital or hell and saying its any of them is just an assumption, couple that with being hilariously above anything else via feats or statements

Again, nothing contradicts Hecatia scaling, not only is she featless, but in her appearance in LoLK, she was literally playing around.

yes I'm gonna disagree with scaling.

Is this for the 8th time?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

And why's that?

I just want something a bit more solid than an undefinite guess.

Hell if tomorrow a statement came out saying all Buddhist gods are below the capital or something id agree to putting them at a solid tier 3-A no less.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Simply being above to the point of the lower feats being unable to hurt her is enough to make the 3-A feat not an outlier. Why can't you understand this?

This would be inconsistent if Hecatia was legit hurt by someone with a 4-C feat, or if she had put effort into a lower feat. Neither of those happened and likely won't happen.

At best "Paradise" is another world for an already existing structure within the Touhou verse honestly (Which I'd wager could be the Lunar Capital but eh). Also stop saying "but it's ridiculously above". It doesn't matter. Hecatia is above everyone anyway.

 

[Fllflourine]

I just want something a bit more solid than an undefinite guess.

Hecatia being completely inferior to Amitabha to where she doesn't scale is also an undefinite guess...

Hell if tomorrow a statement came out saying all Buddhist gods are below the capital or something id agree to putting them at a solid tier 3-A no less.

Let's see about that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why isn't Amaterasu 3-A when she's the Queen of the Gods and Tsukuyomi's sister?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We dropped Tsukuyomi being 3-A for now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still think Amaterasu should scale to Amitabha since she's supposed to be the highest Kami on the Shinto Pantheon.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

See, that's the thing, being above tier 4 characters doesnt make you 3-A, it just makes you far above them. Youre right, if she scaled to Amitabha she fighting them woukdbt null her 3-A status, the orobkem here is if she scales at all. With the evidence provided i dont think it's enough especially since it's not confirmed.

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, far above them could put them basically anywhere if there's a feat to support it. Like 3-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hecatia was literally invented to be the strongest character in Touhou. Like, there is 0 argument to be made. Her whole definition is that she's stronger than everyone in Gensokyo, the Moon and in the Underworld.

 

[Hazerddex]

Hecatia was literally invented to be the strongest character in Touhou. Like, there is 0 argument to be made. Her whole definition is that she's stronger than everyone in Gensokyo, the Moon and in the Underworld.

for now atlest ZUN does change his mind a lot

 

[Fllflourine]

for now atlest ZUN does change his mind a lot

Some things he sets in stone in Touhou.

 

[Hazerddex]

for now atlest ZUN does change his mind a lotSome things he sets in stone in Touhou.

im talking about "strongest" characters in touhou remember he said that the Hime sister were "too strong to be in the games," then says Hecatia is the strongest character but shes in the game.

and recently he said yukaris at full power would be too much to be a game.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Look, I disagree with the scaling.

Yes I'm aware she's stronger than all 3 of those places, I don't believe Amitabha is part of any of them.

If you wanna keep it that's fine, I'm not gonna fight it since yeah, it is technically possible I Just think the reasoning for scaling is faulty without much evidence at all, I'm just saying why I disagree with it, we can disagree but if it goes through I can live with it.

 

[Fllflourine]

@J-Man

Which is why it is only "possibly 3-A" and not a solid 3-A or likely 3-A.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Actually yeah, went over all the arguments and quotes and some side stuff, I'm fine with possibly but that's my limit.

 

[Fllflourine]

So, the final proposal?

-Remove "possibly 3-A" from Tsukuyomi

-Keep Hecatia and Amitabha where they are currently, but adjust the reasoning for Hecatia to:

• Attack Potency: Large Star level (Much more powerful than anything on the Moon or Gensokyo, which includes Lord Tsukuyomi and various other gods of the Moon. Rules over the Hells of Earth, the Moon and the Otherworlds, of which there is a countless amount. Each Hell is its own brane world. It is also implied that the people of hell can create up to an infinite amount of Otherworlds), possibly Universe level (As the implied strongest character of the series, she should not be below Amitabha)

-Probably change the "At least 4-C" rating on Amaterasu to outright High 4-C. She is the sister of Tsukuyomi afterall, and Japanese Mythology (although Touhou doesn't follow it to the T) has Amaterasu being much stronger than Tsukuyomi.

• Attack Potency: Large Star level (Should be at least comparable to her brother, Lord Tsukuyomi, who is the head of the Lunar Capital)

-As co-founder of the Lunar Capital, Eirin should not be below Tsukuyomi.

• Attack Potency: Large Star level (Stated that her power far eclipses Kaguya. As the co-founder of the Lunar Capital, should be comparable to Tsukuyomi.)

Anything else?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yes, although it's more of a question, where does Eirin fall into this?

 

[Hazerddex]

Yes, although it's more of a question, where does Eirin fall into this?

wait and see? touhou 15.5 is coming out soon which is supose to reveal the Strongest duo

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I meant in the line of scaling, she was one if the founders of the capital and was the sisters' mentor if I recall correctly.

 

[Hazerddex]

I meant in the line of scaling, she was one if the founders of the capital and was the sisters' mentor if I recall correctly.

really right now the touhou character pages are still kind of a mess with many of them are missing abilities(such as Cirno's Minus K)

Hata no Kokoro whos feats are taking down Reimu Bykaruen and Miko at the same time. is rather low on the tiers for this

not to mention with Reimu sporting a possibly 3-A

when shes clearly weaker then the likes of yukari and Okina


but thats for a diffrent CR i plan on working on at some point.

 

[Promestein]

Spell card rules are a bitch and make it impossible to scale things, as has been discussed a lot. Kokoro should probably be 5-A, though, but we don't have anything to support this.

Reimu isn't possibly 3-A, she's possibly 3-C, in PC-98, through scaling to a completely different continuity in which Okina and Yukari don't even exist.

 

[Hazerddex]

Spell card rules are a bitch and make it impossible to scale things, as has been discussed a lot. Kokoro should probably be 5-A, though, but we don't have anything to support this.
Reimu isn't possibly 3-A, she's possibly 3-C, in PC-98, through scaling to a completely different continuity in which Okina and Yukari don't even exist.

well spell card rules do state that a character can't have a spell card for a power they don't have and the no killing rule only really applies to humans. as demonstrated with reimu killing Mokou several times in that spell card battle acordding to mokou

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

• Gasp

Prom! Language!

 

[Promestein]

Yes, yes, pardon my french.

 

[Hazerddex]

*Gasp
Prom! Language!

???

 

[Fllflourine]

Yes, although it's more of a question, where does Eirin fall into this?

Perhaps she'll receive High 4-C scaling too, as the Co-Founder of the Lunar Capital afterall.

really right now the touhou character pages are still kind of a mess with many of them are missing abilities(such as Cirno's Minus K)

I'll take note of this for later.

Hata no Kokoro whos feats are taking down Reimu Bykaruen and Miko at the same time. is rather low on the tiers for this

Spellcard Rules, but 5-A does fit her. But as Prom said, there's no clear scaling to that aside from being the instigator of the HM incident (and even then she just used her hax, and it was an incident not as bad as say, PCB)

Although we're taking this a little off topic. Shouldn't we start implementing these changes to the god tiers?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

H-H... How inappropriate!

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so the conclusion is to let the statistics stay as they are then? If so, should there be some explanation footnotes included in the profile pages before we close this thread?

 

[Fllflourine]

Okay, so the conclusion is to let the statistics stay as they are then? If so, should there be some explanation footnotes included in the profile pages before we close this thread?

I'll repost what I said earlier.


-Remove "possibly 3-A" from Tsukuyomi

-Keep Hecatia and Amitabha where they are currently, but adjust the reasoning for Hecatia to:

Attack Potency: Large Star level (Much more powerful than anything on the Moon or Gensokyo, which includes Lord Tsukuyomi and various other gods of the Moon. Rules over the Hells of Earth, the Moon and the Otherworlds, of which there is a countless amount. Each Hell is its own brane world. It is also implied that the people of hell can create up to an infinite amount of Otherworlds), possibly Universe level (As the implied strongest character of the series, she should not be below Amitabha)


-Probably change the "At least 4-C" rating on Amaterasu to outright High 4-C. She is the sister of Tsukuyomi afterall, and Japanese Mythology (although Touhou doesn't follow it to the T) has Amaterasu being much stronger than Tsukuyomi.

Attack Potency: Large Star level (Should be at least comparable to her brother, Lord Tsukuyomi, who is the head of the Lunar Capital)


-As co-founder of the Lunar Capital, Eirin should not be below Tsukuyomi.

Attack Potency: Large Star level (Sealed all of Earth, preventing anyone from leaving it, created a fake moon, though it was implied to be an illusion, considered a threat by Yukari, and stated that her power far eclipses Kaguya. As the co-founder of the Lunar Capital, should be comparable to Tsukuyomi. It is hinted that she can use a Klein Bottle, which can contain infinite mass and is likely 4 dimensional)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do the rest of you think about these suggestions?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Seems fine.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well then. Let me deal with it then. So we can get over this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Alright. The deed is done. Anything else to add?