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I thought it was Amitabha is fine as is but scaling needs to go or be replaced with a simple far higher (which make sense as they are likely far higher, just not exactly on Amitabha's tier) or at least that's what I'm siding with.
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Touhou: Amitabha controversy
- Thread starter Schnee_One
- Start date
- Status
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@TheJ-ManRequiem
I can concede Tsukuyomi no longer scaling to Amitabha, since not only will it lead to other scaling problems (like why is Eirin, the co-founder of the Lunar Capital, and Amaterasu, his sister, and whom is also above him in Japanese Mythology, not receiving 3-A scaling, and Yorihime, who can summon Lunarian Gods of all sorts of kinds, being 3-A).
I'd have to write a wall of text to try and justify Amitabha being a Lunarian God, so its best if we pull Occams Razor for now and assume Amitabha is a god that lives by itself.
However, Hecatia I don't really see not scaling to Amitabha; she and other hell gods of her calibre are considered -the- god tier in Touhou, and it'd be rather weird to see a random Buddhist god > her (Considering a popular Buddhist god, Bishamonten, is earth-bound afterall).
At the least I'm only accepting "likely far higher" or even making it stay at "possibly 3-A".
I can concede Tsukuyomi no longer scaling to Amitabha, since not only will it lead to other scaling problems (like why is Eirin, the co-founder of the Lunar Capital, and Amaterasu, his sister, and whom is also above him in Japanese Mythology, not receiving 3-A scaling, and Yorihime, who can summon Lunarian Gods of all sorts of kinds, being 3-A).
I'd have to write a wall of text to try and justify Amitabha being a Lunarian God, so its best if we pull Occams Razor for now and assume Amitabha is a god that lives by itself.
However, Hecatia I don't really see not scaling to Amitabha; she and other hell gods of her calibre are considered -the- god tier in Touhou, and it'd be rather weird to see a random Buddhist god > her (Considering a popular Buddhist god, Bishamonten, is earth-bound afterall).
At the least I'm only accepting "likely far higher" or even making it stay at "possibly 3-A".
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That's good, we see eye to eye on the lunar scaling.
Hecatia I'm still not sure on,I don't think making 3-A as an assumption is good.
Likely far higher im perfectly fine with and think it should be there, considering she is far above all of Gensokyo.
Hecatia I'm still not sure on,I don't think making 3-A as an assumption is good.
Likely far higher im perfectly fine with and think it should be there, considering she is far above all of Gensokyo.
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@J-Man
Let me repeat myself. She is hyped up to be the top dog of Touhou. So if we are to go with "likely far higher", include the reasoning of: (Implied/Hyped up to be the most powerful character in the setting, which would put her above Amitabha). However, I'm still for her being possibly 3-A instead, just adjust the reasoning.
It is -very strange- to see a mere Buddhist god above a goddess of Hell (Bishamonten, an arguably more prominent god, is on Earth), and Amitabha lives in Paradise, and nothing is explained beyond that. Hecatia on the other hand rules over the Hells of Earth, Moon, and the Otherworlds.
There's nothing IIRC that's anti-featish/outlier-y, considering her status of being above everyone else in Touhou, including the beings of Hell like the Kishin and Eiki Shiki, and the Lunar Capital.
Let me repeat myself. She is hyped up to be the top dog of Touhou. So if we are to go with "likely far higher", include the reasoning of: (Implied/Hyped up to be the most powerful character in the setting, which would put her above Amitabha). However, I'm still for her being possibly 3-A instead, just adjust the reasoning.
It is -very strange- to see a mere Buddhist god above a goddess of Hell (Bishamonten, an arguably more prominent god, is on Earth), and Amitabha lives in Paradise, and nothing is explained beyond that. Hecatia on the other hand rules over the Hells of Earth, Moon, and the Otherworlds.
There's nothing IIRC that's anti-featish/outlier-y, considering her status of being above everyone else in Touhou, including the beings of Hell like the Kishin and Eiki Shiki, and the Lunar Capital.
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If ya can provide a statement on her being above (or st keast the top) the entire verse ill concede (opposed to just Gensokyo) as her being above Gensokyo and the lunar cspital is obvious but Amitabha isnt exactly apart of that.
A single statement is all i need.
A single statement is all i need.
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These changes are fairly valid.
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Do you expect a random person in an interview to say that 'Hey ZUN is Amitabha stronger than Hecatia or nah?' Not only will he likely give a troll answer or laugh it off, Amitabha is one of the most obscure characters in this verse. Virtually no fan that manages to interview ZUN will ask -that-.
I'm going to have to repeat myself again, don't I? It's rather weird to see a Buddhist god (Amitabha), with a notable Buddhist god (Bishamonten) only being earth-bound, as being leagues above Hecatia, who rules over -countless- hells. It takes more assumption to say that Amitabha is above Hecatia.
Finally, a direct statement isn't really needed, when we have many other pages that are rated from implications. I can list several right now if you want. Not only that, but possibly 3-A is also a lot more clearer than "likely far higher", giving a clear indication of just how higher she might be, while still being in the safe territory, as it merely is just 'possibly'."
I'm going to have to repeat myself again, don't I? It's rather weird to see a Buddhist god (Amitabha), with a notable Buddhist god (Bishamonten) only being earth-bound, as being leagues above Hecatia, who rules over -countless- hells. It takes more assumption to say that Amitabha is above Hecatia.
Finally, a direct statement isn't really needed, when we have many other pages that are rated from implications. I can list several right now if you want. Not only that, but possibly 3-A is also a lot more clearer than "likely far higher", giving a clear indication of just how higher she might be, while still being in the safe territory, as it merely is just 'possibly'."
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Bump
So how many agree?
So how many agree?
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Well I propose these changes:
Tsukuyomi is bumped down to High 4-C without the possibly 3-A.
Hecatia and Amitabha remain where they are.
Tsukuyomi is bumped down to High 4-C without the possibly 3-A.
Hecatia and Amitabha remain where they are.
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I agree on the former but the latter Im still hesitant on scaling Hecatia to him (He should stay the same though).
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- slap*
Here is a profile that's an example of a proper usage of likely far higher. He's "possibly far higher" because he has a higher, yet uncertain feat.
But here, Hecatia is High 4-C or 3-A. No in-between.
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That's where you and me disagree, likely far higher is something i want on her profile because she's hilariously above all of gensokyo and the lunar capital not because she maybe scales to Amitahbha which i currently disagree with so the 3-A part of it is something I disagree with.
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Amitabha should stay as he is, everyone agrees upon that from what I see.
Most of the scaling should be thrown out, that has been agreed upon.
The only problem remains is if Hecatia should scale to Amitabha, personally i don't think so as there's next to no evidence suggesting that's the case, Amitabha likely isn't apart of the Lunar Patheon so she doesn't scale off him through that, he's not on earth so she doesn't scale off him through that.
All we know is he exists in Paradise, which is neither earth nor the capital and his mere existence is above any feat or other statement in the entire canon by a dozen zeros, maybe even more, i honestly forget the exact number but it'd take like a minute to write out and there's not a whole lot that would imply scaling either.
Most of the scaling should be thrown out, that has been agreed upon.
The only problem remains is if Hecatia should scale to Amitabha, personally i don't think so as there's next to no evidence suggesting that's the case, Amitabha likely isn't apart of the Lunar Patheon so she doesn't scale off him through that, he's not on earth so she doesn't scale off him through that.
All we know is he exists in Paradise, which is neither earth nor the capital and his mere existence is above any feat or other statement in the entire canon by a dozen zeros, maybe even more, i honestly forget the exact number but it'd take like a minute to write out and there's not a whole lot that would imply scaling either.
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@J-Man
The only problem remains is if Hecatia should scale to Amitabha, personally i don't think so as there's next to no evidence suggesting that's the case, Amitabha likely isn't apart of the Lunar Patheon so she doesn't scale off him through that, he's not on earth so she doesn't scale off him through that. All we know is he exists in Paradise, which is neither earth nor the capital and his mere existence is above any feat or other statement in the entire canon by a dozen zeros, maybe even more...
That's true, Amitabha lives in "paradise", but there's not much factions besides the Earth, and the Moon, and considering Buddhist gods are still bound to earth...
Sure, Amitabha does live in Paradise, but either it is Heaven (earth-bound, since IIRC Reisen said something about Heaven still being on the ground while she was on the Moon) or, it's the Lunar Capital (Moon-bound, Iku, who is a merely a messenger of the Dragon Palace is in Heaven)
I'm going to have to repeat myself again:
Here is a profile that's an example of a proper usage of likely far higher. He's "possibly far higher" because he has a higher, yet uncertain feat.
But here, Hecatia is High 4-C or 3-A. No in-between. That's why possibly 3-A is a preferable option to likely far higher.
The only problem remains is if Hecatia should scale to Amitabha, personally i don't think so as there's next to no evidence suggesting that's the case, Amitabha likely isn't apart of the Lunar Patheon so she doesn't scale off him through that, he's not on earth so she doesn't scale off him through that. All we know is he exists in Paradise, which is neither earth nor the capital and his mere existence is above any feat or other statement in the entire canon by a dozen zeros, maybe even more...
That's true, Amitabha lives in "paradise", but there's not much factions besides the Earth, and the Moon, and considering Buddhist gods are still bound to earth...
Sure, Amitabha does live in Paradise, but either it is Heaven (earth-bound, since IIRC Reisen said something about Heaven still being on the ground while she was on the Moon) or, it's the Lunar Capital (Moon-bound, Iku, who is a merely a messenger of the Dragon Palace is in Heaven)
I'm going to have to repeat myself again:
Here is a profile that's an example of a proper usage of likely far higher. He's "possibly far higher" because he has a higher, yet uncertain feat.
But here, Hecatia is High 4-C or 3-A. No in-between. That's why possibly 3-A is a preferable option to likely far higher.
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Or paradise could be something completely different, we dont know, and I mean considering his size? It sure as hell ain't heaven.
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How they appear in the world =/= how they actually are. For example, Hell is underground, yet it is much larger than Jupiter.TheJ-ManRequiem said:
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Yes but do we not have an actual rough size for heaven?
Pretty sure we have an estimation and it most definitely isn't a noctillion or so times bigger than the universe.
Pretty sure we have an estimation and it most definitely isn't a noctillion or so times bigger than the universe.
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We do, and Hell is much larger than Earth, yet it is underground.TheJ-ManRequiem said:
Amitabha compared to Heaven / Lunar Capital is a similar logic, and I highly doubt that Paradise is something separate from Heaven / Lunar Capital, given that there's three usual pantheons Gods go into: Earth (where Buddhist gods like Bishamonten are), Moon, and Hell(s).
Tho in all seriousness. I think this argument is going around in circles.
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And yet he's in neither the lunar capital, heaven or hell, he's in a place called paradise that has no stated or implied connection to any of them.
Itd be different if there was, id be all for it if it was the case.
Itd be different if there was, id be all for it if it was the case.
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The arguments I have are:TheJ-ManRequiem said:
- -other buddhists gods are earth-bound
- -there is no higher factions than the Moon (barring Hell)
- -Lunar Capital is paradise-like, so is Heaven.
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Other Buddhist gods are, doesn't mean the literal highest tier character introduced so far is, especially when it's said he's in paradise.
You're right there is no higher faction and did we not agree he's not apart of It already?
Them being paradise like isn't an argument, they could of easily said he was in heaven or the capital, they didnt, and Paradise in this context seems to be referring to a specific place not a state.
In fact Gensokyo is constantly referred to as a paradise, an instance off the top of my head is Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (where Gensokyo is called a paradise several times), we're not gonna say Amitahbha is hanging around in Gensokyo because it's Paradise-like, rather Paradise is far likely a seperate location than all 4 possible locations.
You're right there is no higher faction and did we not agree he's not apart of It already?
Them being paradise like isn't an argument, they could of easily said he was in heaven or the capital, they didnt, and Paradise in this context seems to be referring to a specific place not a state.
In fact Gensokyo is constantly referred to as a paradise, an instance off the top of my head is Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (where Gensokyo is called a paradise several times), we're not gonna say Amitahbha is hanging around in Gensokyo because it's Paradise-like, rather Paradise is far likely a seperate location than all 4 possible locations.
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@J-man
Gensokyo is not literally paradise. Heaven and the Lunar Capital however, are.
Other Buddhist gods are, doesn't mean the literal highest tier character introduced so far is, especially when it's said he's in paradise.
>literal highest tier character introduced so far
This has absolutely no meaning when we are talking in-universe classification.
You're right there is no higher faction and did we not agree he's not apart of It already?
Implying that "Paradise" is higher than literally everything else in the verse we know of already doesn't work.
Them being paradise like isn't an argument, they could of easily said he was in heaven or the capital, they didnt, and Paradise in this context seems to be referring to a specific place not a state.
"They" refers to Maribel and Renko, who don't have the true names of those places and thus they use paradise instead. Again, Touhou relishes in using unreliable narrators.
Gensokyo is not literally paradise. Heaven and the Lunar Capital however, are.
Other Buddhist gods are, doesn't mean the literal highest tier character introduced so far is, especially when it's said he's in paradise.
>literal highest tier character introduced so far
This has absolutely no meaning when we are talking in-universe classification.
You're right there is no higher faction and did we not agree he's not apart of It already?
Implying that "Paradise" is higher than literally everything else in the verse we know of already doesn't work.
Them being paradise like isn't an argument, they could of easily said he was in heaven or the capital, they didnt, and Paradise in this context seems to be referring to a specific place not a state.
"They" refers to Maribel and Renko, who don't have the true names of those places and thus they use paradise instead. Again, Touhou relishes in using unreliable narrators.
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You say that but Gensokyo is referred to as a paradise more so than anything else in the entire history of the franchise, yeah Heaven and The Capital are more of a paradise in a literal sense but being paradise-like isn't exactly the strongest argument.
You miss my point, just because one God is doesn't mean another is, they already taken instances and changed mythological statuses and stories, so Amitabha being in the same category as Shou isn't exactly rich in evidence.
Implying Paradise is higher does work when it's directly connected to a character who's quite literally, infinitely above everything else shown thus far. I'd rather assume it is higher when it's connected to a being who is so far above everything else thus far.
I'm aware who said it.
Look, there's far too little evidence to support the scaling and for what there is is almost entirely assumptions at that.
Id rather claim outlier then conceede scaling to such a magnitude above what theyd otherwise be especially when the scaling is just based on guesswork, if there was more going for it id be fine but there isnt and i dont wanna give a rating on mere what if's.
You miss my point, just because one God is doesn't mean another is, they already taken instances and changed mythological statuses and stories, so Amitabha being in the same category as Shou isn't exactly rich in evidence.
Implying Paradise is higher does work when it's directly connected to a character who's quite literally, infinitely above everything else shown thus far. I'd rather assume it is higher when it's connected to a being who is so far above everything else thus far.
I'm aware who said it.
Look, there's far too little evidence to support the scaling and for what there is is almost entirely assumptions at that.
Id rather claim outlier then conceede scaling to such a magnitude above what theyd otherwise be especially when the scaling is just based on guesswork, if there was more going for it id be fine but there isnt and i dont wanna give a rating on mere what if's.
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You say that but Gensokyo is referred to as a paradise more so than anything else in the entire history of the franchise, yeah Heaven and The Capital are more of a paradise in a literal sense but being paradise-like isn't exactly the strongest argument.
Gensokyo is where nearly anything Touhou takes place. Of course it will be referred to as paradise more than anything else.
You miss my point, just because one God is doesn't mean another is, they already taken instances and changed mythological statuses and stories, so Amitabha being in the same category as Shou isn't exactly rich in evidence.
>Rich in evidence
I mean, except the fact that nearly ALL the Shinto gods all lives in the same place and are more or less equal to each-others.
Implying Paradise is higher does work when it's directly connected to a character who's quite literally, infinitely above everything else shown thus far. I'd rather assume it is higher when it's connected to a being who is so far above everything else thus far.
Except he is only "higher" via feats. He has no inherent reasons to be so much higher than Hecatia.
Look, there's far too little evidence to support the scaling and for what there is is almost entirely assumptions at that.
It takes more assumptions to assume that Hecatia cannot scale to Amitabha.
Id rather claim outlier then conceede scaling to such a magnitude above what theyd otherwise be especially when the scaling is just based on guesswork, if there was more going for it id be fine but there isnt and i dont wanna give a rating on mere what if's.
>Outlier on a bunch of god tiers.
Riiiiiiight.
And I'm not conceding just yet.
Gensokyo is where nearly anything Touhou takes place. Of course it will be referred to as paradise more than anything else.
You miss my point, just because one God is doesn't mean another is, they already taken instances and changed mythological statuses and stories, so Amitabha being in the same category as Shou isn't exactly rich in evidence.
>Rich in evidence
I mean, except the fact that nearly ALL the Shinto gods all lives in the same place and are more or less equal to each-others.
Implying Paradise is higher does work when it's directly connected to a character who's quite literally, infinitely above everything else shown thus far. I'd rather assume it is higher when it's connected to a being who is so far above everything else thus far.
Except he is only "higher" via feats. He has no inherent reasons to be so much higher than Hecatia.
Look, there's far too little evidence to support the scaling and for what there is is almost entirely assumptions at that.
It takes more assumptions to assume that Hecatia cannot scale to Amitabha.
Id rather claim outlier then conceede scaling to such a magnitude above what theyd otherwise be especially when the scaling is just based on guesswork, if there was more going for it id be fine but there isnt and i dont wanna give a rating on mere what if's.
>Outlier on a bunch of god tiers.
Riiiiiiight.
And I'm not conceding just yet.
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>Except he's only higher via feats.
Yes, exactly, his feats are so hilariously above anything else shown or even hinted at by a nigh infinite amount of times and for that alone is a reason to be infinitely above her especially when its not even confirmed he's apart of the things she scales off, hell it's not even implied.
Youre assuming he's apart of two things he's not confirmed let alone implied. Thats literally the only reason should could scake and its not even proven.
And yes an outlier, it's a single feat so far above anything even the other supposed god tiers have been shown or even hinted to be capable of doing and not just by a bit, quintillions of times so at that and when the only way they'd ever get the scaling is through something that has yet to be confirmed? They can still be god tiers and be below Amitabha but for a extremely high end 3-A rankimg off of unconfirmed guesswork? I disagree.
Yes, exactly, his feats are so hilariously above anything else shown or even hinted at by a nigh infinite amount of times and for that alone is a reason to be infinitely above her especially when its not even confirmed he's apart of the things she scales off, hell it's not even implied.
Youre assuming he's apart of two things he's not confirmed let alone implied. Thats literally the only reason should could scake and its not even proven.
And yes an outlier, it's a single feat so far above anything even the other supposed god tiers have been shown or even hinted to be capable of doing and not just by a bit, quintillions of times so at that and when the only way they'd ever get the scaling is through something that has yet to be confirmed? They can still be god tiers and be below Amitabha but for a extremely high end 3-A rankimg off of unconfirmed guesswork? I disagree.
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I'm sorry but I'm gonna comment on this thread JUST to point out how ******* ridiculous this feat being an "outlier" is.
From the beginning of this thread, you keep saying that Amitabha doesn't scale to anyone.
Yet when we bring up that the absolute god tier of the verse, way above any feats of the setting, could scale from this, you scream "Outlier!"?
Not only are the top tier of the moon laughably above the 4-C feat, but Hecatia herself is on a totally different league. You're arguing outlier for two characters that, as you spent your whole time debating, don't scale to anyone? Your make absolutely no sense, no offense. You just sound like you flip flop arguments for the sake of downplaying here.
From the beginning of this thread, you keep saying that Amitabha doesn't scale to anyone.
Yet when we bring up that the absolute god tier of the verse, way above any feats of the setting, could scale from this, you scream "Outlier!"?
Not only are the top tier of the moon laughably above the 4-C feat, but Hecatia herself is on a totally different league. You're arguing outlier for two characters that, as you spent your whole time debating, don't scale to anyone? Your make absolutely no sense, no offense. You just sound like you flip flop arguments for the sake of downplaying here.
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Gensyko is basicly a schism.Fllflourine said:
Paradise = for youkai just a fyi.
also Heaven sure isn't paradise in touhou eather otherwise Tenshi would not be board to the point of cuasing super massive earthquakes that could kill thousands.
and the lunar captial is sure as hell not paradise since the people who live there think life is impure.
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I said it was fine to stay Saikou, read the rest of the thread before going off
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Outliers are for feats are inconsistent, not just "it's too high compared to the rest of the series, downgrade!!". There is no consistency to be had with featless characters who are above all other feats. Seriously drop this outlier argument.
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I did, did you read a quarter of the way down the thread
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Yes, exactly, his feats are so hilariously above anything else shown or even hinted at by a nigh infinite amount of times and for that alone is a reason to be infinitely above her especially when its not even confirmed he's apart of the things she scales off, hell it's not even implied.
Except for the arguments I stated.
Youre assuming he's apart of two things he's not confirmed let alone implied. Thats literally the only reason should could scake and its not even proven.
You're assuming Hecatia doesn't at least possibly scale to Amitabha.
And yes an outlier, it's a single feat so far above anything even the other supposed god tiers have been shown or even hinted to be capable of doing and not just by a bit, quintillions of times so at that and when the only way they'd ever get the scaling is through something that has yet to be confirmed? They can still be god tiers and be below Amitabha but for a extremely high end 3-A rankimg off of unconfirmed guesswork? I disagree.
>Outlier
>Hecatia
Hecatia is featless, and there's nothing contradicting her being able to scale to "possibly 3-A".
-Nothing.-
Except for the arguments I stated.
Youre assuming he's apart of two things he's not confirmed let alone implied. Thats literally the only reason should could scake and its not even proven.
You're assuming Hecatia doesn't at least possibly scale to Amitabha.
And yes an outlier, it's a single feat so far above anything even the other supposed god tiers have been shown or even hinted to be capable of doing and not just by a bit, quintillions of times so at that and when the only way they'd ever get the scaling is through something that has yet to be confirmed? They can still be god tiers and be below Amitabha but for a extremely high end 3-A rankimg off of unconfirmed guesswork? I disagree.
>Outlier
>Hecatia
Hecatia is featless, and there's nothing contradicting her being able to scale to "possibly 3-A".
-Nothing.-
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I was talking to J-man, Garg. I honestly didn't even notice you post.
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I don't think J man ever stated it was.Saikou The Lewd King said:
Sorry
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Outliers are not just "one feat higher than all the others", they need to actually contradict the character's showings.
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Being far higher then all the others does contradictThe Everlasting said:
Just an FYI, I don't consider it an outlier
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No it doesn't. It doesn't when the only characters scaled to it fodderize said "lower feats". Beerus doing a 3-A wasn't considered an outlier. Why? Because he freaking fodderize every 4-B people.
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>An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power.
Which it is. No one has shown that type of power, no one has been implied to be that amount of that power and no one has been hinted to be capable of destroying a trillion universes simply by moving, High Tier 4 and a few quadrillion times above universal is a tremoundous gap, and if we put Amitabha as part of the lunar capital than even Eirin would scale and then the people who scale to her would too.
And to top it off, it's not even confirmed, you want to upgrade characters trillions above their current tier without feats of their own and without definite proof and scaling that may not actually be true?
Do not accuse me of downplaying, I love this franchise and I'd rather actual evidence and proof for massive tier jumps or at least something better than mere assumptions.
Which it is. No one has shown that type of power, no one has been implied to be that amount of that power and no one has been hinted to be capable of destroying a trillion universes simply by moving, High Tier 4 and a few quadrillion times above universal is a tremoundous gap, and if we put Amitabha as part of the lunar capital than even Eirin would scale and then the people who scale to her would too.
And to top it off, it's not even confirmed, you want to upgrade characters trillions above their current tier without feats of their own and without definite proof and scaling that may not actually be true?
Do not accuse me of downplaying, I love this franchise and I'd rather actual evidence and proof for massive tier jumps or at least something better than mere assumptions.
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