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Top 5 Strongest Characters for Every Tier Part 12

Unironically, GAIA vs Caine is a more fair match because Caine doesn't have Type 5, he can just affect it.
 
I still don't know why Caine is above Vivec in Low 2-C when there wasn't even a conclusive match between them...

Well, there was one but Udl was fighting a losing battle and it got toxic pretty quickly.

Can people not feud in this site so we can get stuff done, please.
 
It's a weird one because transformations that take you from one key to another aren't allowed unless specified (Chim)

Also I actually somewhat agree with Tactical because the main argument was Vivec getting passivley erased into incap but he has noselled erasure from the The Amaranth so I don't see him getting erased in the first place.
 
also gonna need a match for the 3-C 6-C and 6-B stuff
 
>I still don't know why Caine is above Vivec in Low 2-C when there wasn't even a conclusive match between them...

Well, there was one but Udl was fighting a losing battle and it got toxic pretty quickly.


I wasn't fighting a losing battle, it was deemed a stomp for Caine, because Caine passives erasured Vivec's Narrative, and Power nulled all his abilities so he couldn't do anything but sit in a cycle of going to Regen but automatically being erased.

And Vivec wasn't able to go into CHIM because Caine doesn't have Zero summing and CHIM is another key and you're not allowed to introduce other keys unless specified.
 
That wasn't why he wasn't allowed to go Chim. You don't have to be zero-summed to activate Chim. Also Vivec resists EE from The Amaranth. Power Null is the only argument that is Valid.
 
Yes he can for sure but apparently transformations to other keys aren't allowed in the rules. I think for the purposes of this thread it should be okay though. Passive 11-D powernull (Whatever that even means) is going to be a problem for Vivec though.
 
I'm iffy on accessing other tiers. Higher tier abilities in one key is one thing, outright becoming 1-A to be the strongest Low 2-C is another.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
That wasn't why he wasn't allowed to go Chim. You don't have to be zero-summed to activate Chim. Also Vivec resists EE from The Amaranth. Power Null is the only argument that is Valid.
Click to expand...
Vivec has never resisted having his Narrative erased, so it doesn't matter if he's resisted EE from Amaranth, and I feel you're taking that out of context as well, because if I remember correctly, that comes after he becomes the mother of creation.

And yes, Zero-Summing is required for CHIM, someone went into great Detail about how it takes such to activate CHIM.

And yes, it was why he wasn't able to go into CHIM, he cannot go into another key except without a special clause:

We use SSJ Goku, we can't say "Well Goku stomps because Goku can go Super Saiyan Blue and one shot." You can do that because we're using SSJ Goku not Blue Goku, same goes Here, we're using Weakened Vivec, not CHIM Vivec.
 
S'pose I'll wait and see the opinion on allowing outright higher tier transformations being allowed for these fights before making a ruling, see if anyone has some insight on the subject.
 
'And yes, Zero-Summing is required for CHIM, someone went into great Detail about how it takes such to activate CHIM.'

That literally never happened. You just said it did in the thread. Go back and read it. Also it just straight up isn't true if you knew how Chim worked. I miss-spoke you are always zero-summed upon activating chim but zero-summing doesn't happen before you achieve it. Achieving Chim and realising you are the dream of an uncarring God and that nothing is real all happens at the same time. It doesn't even matter cause Vivec resists Cains erasure unless he has better erasure then The Amaranth which is NLF as ****.

I don't see how you could erase Vivec's narative without erasing The Amaranth which is also something you didn't explain in the thread.

Passive power-null is the only valid argument.
 
Like I said, I'm waiting to see what happens and what people think more than anything. If people think transformations into outright higher tiers are okay and provide reasoning I can agree to that, I personally just think that's a little bit weird, having a 1-A be the strongest Low 2-C or apparently 4-A.
 
It's still a 1-A transformation. Personally I think for this list it should be fine. It's sort of like saying you can't use statistics amp that takes you to another key. Like Ikki Kurogane for example.
 
>That literally never happened

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3230204#95

>It doesn't even matter cause Vivec resists Cains erasure unless he has better erasure then The Amaranth which is NLF as ****.

Okay, we've been over this many times in other threads, destruction on a 1-A Level but it only being physical destruction is not greater than say 4-D Conceptual erasure.

Now I do agree with you, resisting 1-A Conceptual erasure means anything below that 1-A Conceptual erasure doesn't work, but this is working in a higher level, so Narrative level, he doesn't resist that.

If this explains it, he has resistance to concept manip, but not Plot manip.

It's a non-sequitur to assume because he can resist concept manip he can resist Plot manip.

And the argument "All things are apart of Amaranth therefore to erase Vivec you must erase Amaranth" doesn't equate because the Narrative functions on a meta level, so you'd have to prove the Narrative specifically exists as apart of Amaranth. "All things" doesn't include meta objects
 
How would one consider characters like Pelinal then? In case of any vs threads using him, for instance, you can't restrict his madness, purely because that isn't in his control and he can randomly fall into as well as out of that state while in combat. That is why his madness is in the same key as he can neither consciously control or maintain it. I don't see why Vivec's key can't be changed to Low 2-C, 1-A with CHIM like the Numidium's profile. Its not a 1-A taking the low 2-C spot, its a low 2-C who can go 1-A that is.
 
'And the argument "All things are apart of Amaranth therefore to erase Vivec you must erase Amaranth" doesn't equate because the Narrative functions on a meta level, so you'd have to prove the Narrative specifically exists as apart of Amaranth. "All things" doesn't include meta objects'

Caine can erase naratives on a real world level now apparently. That's the only conclusion I can decipher from whatever this is trying to say.
 
@ Udl

Who even said that Vivec's destruction is only physical?

Also, CHIM users can use elements of the narrative as literal unresistable weapons like how Jubal decapitated the Numidium with an empty speech bubble (actually, its not just as simple as this, but someone more knowledgeable is better off explaining this. Something to do with refuting philosophy).

Also, I have severe doubts that narrative control over a multiple degrees of infinitely lower verse would effect the narrative of a verse with tier 1-A/0 cosmology, no matter how meta you get.
 
>Caine can erase naratives on a real world level now apparently. That's the only conclusion I can decipher from whatever this is trying to say.

Meta Level and reality fiction are different.

>Who even said that Vivec's destruction is only physical?

No one, not even myself.

>Also, CHIM users can use elements of the narrative as literal unresistable weapons like how Jubal decapitated the Numidium with an empty speech bubble (actually, its not just as simple as this, but someone more knowledgeable is better off explaining this. Something to do with refuting philosophy).

Thats text manip/Information manip, at least from what it sounds like your saying.

>Also, I have severe doubts that narrative control over a multiple degrees of infinitely lower verse would effect the narrative of a verse with tier 1-A/0 cosmology, no matter how meta you get.

You're misunderstanding, manipulation of the Narrative doesn't mean one has the manipulate every aspect of the verse, it just means that their narrative is erased, they're removed from even the plot.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Could ya'll just make a thread about this?
Click to expand...
This please. Discussion on specific matches can be had on their own threads if they're going to take up tens of posts.
 
Bobsican said:
Replace Dr. Strange with Archie Sonic for the 5th spot in 4-B
Click to expand...
See previous discussion. Strange is decidedly staying due to being able to duke it out with some of the higher tiers better than Sonic potentially could- essentially even if Sonic would win, Strange can combat higher. Same reason Reinhard still holds 5-B, man has 1-A potency so even if he would lose, he's still effectively "stronger".
 
>Who even said that Vivec's destruction is only physical?

No one, not even myself.

And who just said that "destruction on a 1-A Level but it only being physical destruction is not greater than say 4-D Conceptual erasure."
 
By that logic Bai is definitely up there in High 3-A. What with 1-A erasure that keeps erasing and weakening you eternally till you stay dead for good.
 
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