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Top 5 Strongest Characters for Every Tier 18

Oh the Gudou gods, yeah. I got confused for some reason because it looks like a Nasu dude of a similar name. Also, nah, that works a bit different. It's like, reality never recognizes that attacks land on her, it's like the rules are specifically for attacks not landing on her, where as the Gudou gods apply their law to themselves exclusively
 
I dont have an issue with Masada and Nasu sharing the spot since the only Masada 7-A that definitely can win is Keishirou due to ascension but either way it seems legit to put them together.

Also doing something to Keishirou even prior to him going full 1-A is hard cause of two reasons, one is he has Luck/Luck Steal that effects 1-As and two is that anything actually done to him will sinply be instantly overwritten due to his ascension since his very existence is being passively changed.

(After 3-A Rein and Merc Keishirou is probably the 3rd most busted although its a contest between him and Yakou)
 
I don't think that's any different. Law is law. Well just see the justification on Habaki Sakagami's reality warping. He basically ignore all law to a certain extent on 1A level. Not to mwntion his causality manip that works on Tenma.
 
Wait, Sauron is still in the High 3A spot? He's not even the strongest High 3A in his own verse, the Valar are rated higher than him.
 
PsychoWarper said:
Habaki is basically the king of Incon, he doesnt really win unless the other person can die from their own powers.
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Let's not forget that he can ignore dura and has soul manipulation that works on Tenma.
 
Eganergo said:
I don't think that's any different. Law is law.
Well just see the justification on Habaki Sakagami's reality warping. He basically ignore all law to a certain extent on 1A level. Not to mwntion his causality manip that works on Tenma.
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First off, Law in the context of Masadaverse and Law in the context of Fate are two very different things. Law in the Masadaverse context is like applying your world view to the world around you, or to yourself. Within the context of Fate, or more specifically the context of the moon cell, because I can think of a few people who have something similar to what masada would call a law, it's more like influencing what is supposed to be an unbiased mediator. It's not like Habiki is being restricted from anything, it's just that Kazuradrop, lacks a hitbox, to use gaming terms. It's like if you could swing a sword at a boss endlessly, no one is stopping you, but the mediator just never recognizes any of your strikes as landing
 
So what? It is categorized as law manipulation no? If it is then habaki resist, if it is not then Habaki doesn't resist (depend on what power). That is why we have verse equalization. As simple as that. If we are going NLF i can wank either of them if I want to.
 
My point is that I don't think Masadaverse law manip would necessarily equalize, at least not for all the Laws out there. Also, no, it is not that black and white. Just because you resist one kind specific case of an ability does not mean you would resist all kind of that ability if they diverge significantly enough
 
The eastern espedition group could hit temnas, who are litterally living laws, so Kazumadrop's invunerability is ineffective
 
You completely missed my point. What the Masadaverse calls a law is more akin to reality overwrite, so I'm not sure it would equalize to the game rules of the moon cell, which work very differently.
 
Then i can say the same to Habaki or any other verse out there and say their law manip is superior. What next? Kazura can negate Hajun metsujin messo? Hm?
 
What the genuine **** are you talking about? We are talking about resisting law manip, and I'm saying that the law manip he resists/reflects does not equalize to the law manip Kazuradrop has. Hajun's attacks work on a scale above what the moon cell does, so of course it would work, but his attacks are 1-A in nature. Just cuz something has a 1-A effect does not make the attack itself 1-A, which is what makes most of the expedition members different. If Habiki's attacks themselves were 1-A, then of course they would work, but y'all have yet to prove that, and just being able to resist a law manip that borderline isn't law manip doesn't mean it can equalize to let him resist very different kinds of laws
 
My point is what makes you think Kazura's law manip is superior to any other law manip out there?

Borderline isn't law manip? What?

In Masadaverse their law come from their deepest craving. Those shit like time stop, hajun metsujin messo, etc are just the mean to realize their law. The law for the world or themself.

The way i see it Masadaverse has the superior law manip if we're talking about mechanic.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
What the genuine **** are you talking about? We are talking about resisting law manip, and I'm saying that the law manip he resists/reflects does not equalize to the law manip Kazuradrop has. Hajun's attacks work on a scale above what the moon cell does, so of course it would work, but his attacks are 1-A in nature. Just cuz something has a 1-A effect does not make the attack itself 1-A, which is what makes most of the expedition members different. If Habiki's attacks themselves were 1-A, then of course they would work, but y'all have yet to prove that, and just being able to resist a law manip that borderline isn't law manip doesn't mean it can equalize to let him resist very different kinds of laws
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I left a message on your wall
 
It works on a decently above baseline 2-A scale, but my main point here is that it is not superior to the law manip of the Masadaverse, just that it is so different that they do not equalize.

What do I mean by that? Well let's go down the line:

  • Morei: the law of I burn everything around me
  • Sukuna: not even sure what law he is manifesting, just power null
  • Akuro: the law of I poison everything around me
  • Numahime: the law of I take people to my Castle and torture them
  • Ootake: the law of I am a void and erase people
  • Yato: Time Stop. This one is probably the closest, since you could argue he is imposing a rule of negating change, but it's still borderline
Yes, which is why I say it's more akin to reality overwrite, like a reality marble from the nasuverse. In fact, it's more likely they would equalize to that instead. Reality Marbles work by imposing an internal world or nature on the outside world or the self, and the laws of the Masadaverse impose their world view or desire on the world around them. The game rules of the moon cell work very differently

We are basically comparing apples to oranges, so they do not equalize, and it's hard to even compare them on the same metric.
 
Despite all those thing you say, everything is still categorized as law manipulation. The reality warping is the side effect of their law just like any other. You have to change that first if you want to argue the eastern expedition cannot resist law manipulation.

I'm sure you've read the Masadaverse Explanation Page and why those power are categorized as law manipulation.

It doesn't matter whether it is imposing desire or law manipulation that YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei) has. Law manipulaition is law manipulation.

As everything stands, Habaki or Keishiro yeets Kazura.

This is getting redundant discussing around circle. I'm going to see myself out for now.
 
Yes, its law manip, but I am arguing that it does not equalize to the game rules of the moon cell. I think they would instead equalize to something like a reality marble. I'm not saying that they cannot resist law manip, and I never did. What I am arguing is that the kind of law manip they resist is not the right kind of law manip, especially since, from a Nasu perspective, it basically isn't law manip

Yes, they are categorized as such, but this is a discussion of verse equalization. Just because someone has reality warping does not mean that reality warping would equalize to what another verse considers reality warping. For example, the style users from Medaka box equalize to something more akin to the C'tan style of reality warping within 40k (which 40k more or less does not consider reality warping), where as Misaka's Electricity manip is not classified as reality warping or magic in her verse, but when put in the context of 40k, it equalizes to warp shenanigans and what they call magic. The situation is similar here, what the Masadaverse considers law manip the nasuverse does not, and they do not equalize to eachother due to being so different.

That is patently false. No ability is a monolith within fiction.

Keishirou does, obviously, but that is due to Kazuradrop not using her win conditions, not because of her inability to win. Habiki on the other hand is still up in the air.

I thought we were getting somewhere, but you are welcome to leave if you feel it is necessary.
 
Well, you keep talking about "nasu perspective" which is not an equal ground. I could say the same that Kazura law manip is not law manipulation from "masadaverse perspective". Therefore the equalization. What categorized as what.

We use in verse explanation for feats no? If reality marble is not law manipulation then it is not law manipulation. If Masadaverse reality warping is law manipulation then it is law manipulation.

Of course misaka (your example) is different. In To Aru, they have Esper, Magician, Thelesma users, etc. Kamachi said Esper cannot use magic and only personal reality, then it is not magic. The same goes for every orher verses out there.

The easiest example is Touma. He can negate anything "supernatural". Now what can be categorized as supernatural? The answer is the same as above. If something supernatural, then it is supernatural, therefore Touma negate.

The real question is which perspective should we use for the supernatural part? Warhammer or Toaru? Both have different mechanics. The same goes for Nasu vs Masada. The easiest way is to categorized which is which.

But i guess everything is up to debate.

I just feel that our discussion is clogging up the thread since no one else bother to participate.
 
It seems comparable to the same argument of

A: "He resists planetary mind manipulation."

B: "Well this guy's mind manipulation works via tampering with someones brain directly. Has he resisted somthing like that?"

A: "Well...No..."
 
Personally, she can't get past Habaki and his "lol1-Areflection" that works even on things like speed and Keishirou just absorbs her ass into him and be done with her (for reference he absorbed this gal who was "protected" by Yato time armor and her own AE type 1 on a 1-A level).
 
It's also comparable somewhat to my AP negating Power Nullification argument that I'll continue eventually.
 
Eganergo said:
Well, you keep talking about "nasu perspective" which is not an equal ground. I could say the same that Kazura law manip is not law manipulation from "masadaverse perspective". Therefore the equalization. What categorized as what.
We use in verse explanation for feats no? If reality marble is not law manipulation then it is not law manipulation. If Masadaverse reality warping is law manipulation then it is law manipulation.

Of course misaka (your example) is different. In To Aru, they have Esper, Magician, Thelesma users, etc. Kamachi said Esper cannot use magic and only personal reality, then it is not magic. The same goes for every orher verses out there.

The easiest example is Touma. He can negate anything "supernatural". Now what can be categorized as supernatural? The answer is the same as above. If something supernatural, then it is supernatural, therefore Touma negate.

The real question is which perspective should we use for the supernatural part? Warhammer or Toaru? Both have different mechanics. The same goes for Nasu vs Masada. The easiest way is to categorized which is which.

But i guess everything is up to debate.

I just feel that our discussion is clogging up the thread since no one else bother to participate.
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We aren't working purely from the Nasu perspective, but at the Same time, you can't just say that something is necessarily law manip to everyone because it is for your verse. If Masadaverse doesn't consider the Moon Cell Ganme Rules as law manip then it would probably default to information manip, which they do not resist.

Not really, since we try to equalize things to what is closest to them in the other verse, but in some cases the difference is too extreme. For example, iirc Haki is closeted to what Naruto calls Chakra, but the two abilities diverge to such an absurd degree that they can no longer be equalized. If anything, I would are that Masadaverse may not consider the nasu game rules as what they would call a Law. If Kazuradrop pulled out a Reality Marble, then they would very likely be able to resist and combat their effects.

But do you get my point? Even something that one verse regards as not magic can still be equalized as magic to another verse.

It's not that simple either tho. Styles from Medaka Box, for example, are techniques, and not considered to be inherently supernatural within Medaka Box, although it is very complicated. What about the Vampires or Pillarmen from jojo? In Touaru vampires are considered supernatural, but in jojo vampires are just a product of some really good acupuncture, and the pillarmen are a naturally occurring race of their own. Would he still be able to negate their abilities?

My point is, you cannot just use the name of on the can when the mechanics best equalize to something else.

I mean, it is very relevant, so I think it's cool to continue
 
We're actually on the same page except for the law manipulation parts. From my point of view reality marble user is close to Hadou type, while character like Kazura is a Gudou type. As such we can equalize the law manipulation part.

I'm going to sleep for now since it's already midnight here.
 
So, what stops Keishou to eventually becoming 1-A and eating Kazumadrop (with his 1-A luck preventing her from touching him) ?
 
Tony di bugalu said:
Firephoenixearl said:
Oh well. Im bored. Let's see if i can find any entertainment here.
What can Mami Tomoe do in 6-C?
Click to expand...
who are you trying to get in?
Power Null a la Yhwach and a higher Dura than AP AFAIK plus some good resistances and hax
Click to expand...
Characters from rakudai. Mainly Fu Xiaoli, Nene Saikyou and Edelweiss (since Ikki and Stella ain't that great).

Fu Xiaoli - Copies any technique she comes in contact with and gains resistance to it + Desperado hax + Stella Vermillio + Lamberd Larp + Yoshikazu Kiba

Nene Saikyou: Gravity manip with decent versatility + Desperado hax + somewhat in character banish from the 4 dimensions.

Edelweiss: Just desperado hax and Ikki Kurogane levels of skill.
 
Mami's mind is a type 1 abtract and has type 8 on it, so those people can't affect her with that stuff nor kill her
 
Overlord775 said:
Mami's mind is a type 1 abtract and has type 8 on it, so those people can't affect her with that stuff nor kill her
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Poison to put her to sleep? Or Absolute 0 incap?

If no then Nene's banish from the 4 dimensions should do the job.
 
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