Top 15 Strongest Non-Smurfs for Every Tier Continuation 4.0

[DontTalkDT]

Plot and CM are the accepted to be of the same importance now.

No, plot and CM are considered to have no default order of what is more abstract than the other. That doesn't mean we consider them able to affect each other by default or that they in general are not more abstract than each other. It means that we by default don't know how the interaction works out, which is why we would need to look in detail of how the nature of these things compare to stuff in the verse.
To quote:

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.

So yeah, if you want to claim that your concepts can ignore Kawakamiverse plot, then you need to put forth an argument on why it would equalize as such. See at the bottom below.

Isn't this just NLF???

There aren't and never was 7 layers cm type 1 in that verse, and now there is because she imagined it?

When have I implied that she creates 7 layers of CM1? I said her plot manip based defense will activate against the power as she can imagine the existence of such powers.
Again, you don't need to have seen a thing to be able to imagine the existence of it nor does the thing even need to actually exist to be imagined.

Underline Metaphysics [Layers of Laws]​

The more metaphysical nature of reality is fundamentally made up of laws layered over each other in such a way that the lower laws serve as the supports for the higher laws yet are still superseded by them, the lowest level consists of the worlds physical laws, essentially physics as a whole [The Baseline], superseded by the particular metaphysics related to a worlds built in energy system which break, bend and overrule said physical laws, to an admittedly limited degree [The First Layer], while beyond that are laws or changes enacted through the will of an ascended being [The Second Layer][13]. There are more layers of superiority that go beyond just what was outlined prior [Two Layers] which are inherently built into the any interactions between the abilities of ascended beings because when two principles that already outrank physical laws come in contact with each other the superior one will overwrite the lesser one by virtue of outrank it similarly to how they already outrank physical laws, furthering the layers of laws, so all ascended beings inherently have [Two Layers] above baseline abilities[14].

An Iterations innate power systems are fundamentally just aspects of it's inherent metaphysics[15] which function in a manner that isn't directly tied to the Way in the sense that they actively draw from the Way in it's purest form[16] but are still shaped by it's concept, specifically whatever Icons it is more attuned to[14].

Iteration 110 [Cradle]​

In Cradle, Dreadgods exist in a state of being fundamentally part of the world's rules, substance, it's very fabric[15] as a result of being tied to an unnatural variation of one of the iterations energy systems known as Aura, in particular Hunger Aura, showing clearly that a world's energy system is inherently built into it's fabric[17]. Aura as a whole is one unified force, simply the soul of the world[18] and a manifestation of it's power[19] that creates and accumulates alongside the physical processes of the world[20] including phenomena that are inherently intangible and conceptual like death or destruction[21] such that aura can form multiple dualities like air and earth, heat and cold even life and death[22].

And Lindon is already on second layer, Icon is already above laws. Read the cosmology before writing that.

Icons [Archetypal Concepts]​

Icons are archetypal[65] greater concepts of reality[66] which are fundamentally intrinsic to all of reality[67] because they serve as the single template for all things they represent[68] to such a degree that alterations to them change all of reality itself [Conceptual Manipulation] and Icons have complimentary halves, opposites, which are present alongside them to form a duality[69]. These concepts are sourced and empowered by the Way[70], the fundamental basis for all of existence[63], which exists deeper than[55] and completely separate from reality[71] such that Icons themselves exist beyond the world[72] and the manifestation of their power is "projected from beyond reality"[73].

The Void is the endless pure lack of existence[86] said to be beyond existence[87] that resides outside the Way itself[88] surrounding it[39] while similarly being beyond additional depth as space peels away from like a wallpaper revealing the "deeper hole" that is the Void[6] beyond all directions of space[54], reality[55] and time[7][8]. The Void constitutes a pure nonexistence[89] and endless chaos[90] which causes the break down the Ways influence wherever it finds a foothold[86].

Nonexistence and Annihilation​

As a force of nonexistence and annihilation[89] outside the influence of Way[88] the Void naturally lacks the various metaphysical properties it provides such as Icons as a whole[70] including the Void Icon which is the concept of nonexistence itself[70] and it's counterpart which is the concept of existence[69] [Nonexistent Physiology: Nature 2 - Aspects 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5], causality which is absent from anything erased from the Way[91], laws which are erased from within it[90], Physics which it inherently lacks[34], Logic which it also inherently lacks[90], Fate is separate from it[19][88] and it would naturally reside outside the Ways metaphysical record storage system which stores fundamental information[70].

Well, thanks of pointing me to the right reading material. As said, I just went by what I got from reading the CM section on his page. No need to get so defensive~

Anyway, from reading the above I can see how they would equalize about to a Owari no Chronicle concept user due to similar mechanics. So unless plot manip is a thing in his verse, I guess we go with Kawakami-verse logic for equalization of metaphysical aspects. In which case the Icon stuff can bypass her defense, provided he uses it directly on her.

Although, is his concept passive truly passive (always on throughout the story, not just an activatable aura) and, if it is, does it have 4km range while passive? Being a walking cloud of death to everything around you, never able to approach anyone else they get erased, seems.... detrimental.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Although, is his concept passive truly passive (always on throughout the story, not just an activatable aura) and, if it is, does it have 4km range while passive? Being a walking cloud of death to everything around you, never able to approach anyone else they get erased, seems.... detrimental.

Instinctive Action (Lindons Dreadgod arm instinctively wants to devour everything such that using Consume is actually Lindon relaxing his control over it rather than activating an ability[207]

 

[deonment]

There aren't and never was 7 layers cm type 1 in that verse, and now there is because she imagined it?

I mean, layers of hax doesn't make something more or less abstract, in this case Kagami is manipulating something that in-verse is more abstract than type 1 concepts, type 2 info and laws

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I mean, layers of hax doesn't make something more or less abstract, in this case Kagami is manipulating something that in-verse is more abstract than type 1 concepts, type 2 info and laws

Yeah I know that, but also Willverse cosmology.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Instinctive Action (Lindons Dreadgod arm instinctively wants to devour everything such that using Consume is actually Lindon relaxing his control over it rather than activating an ability[207]

Sooooo? Then he still needs to consciously decide to relax his control, making it in fact not passive. Characters are teleported straight in without interruption, so he can't make that decision before the battle starts and this won't allow him to make the decision faster than conscious either. Presumably he probably also usually controls what it consumes instead of just letting it out on everything, or doesn't he?
Also... uh, his arm? Doesn't that just have melee range than? Or does his arm fire ranged attacks?

 

[Livinmeme]

you, never able to approach anyone else they get erased, seems.... detrimental

Lindon is too much of a good boy for that (even if he is sometimes a little deranged)

 

[Livinmeme]

I mean, layers of hax doesn't make something more or less abstract, in this case Kagami is manipulating something that in-verse is more abstract than type 1 concepts, type 2 info and laws

Willverse also has more abstract concepts, along with layers.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Sooooo? Then he still needs to consciously decide to relax his control, making it in fact not passive. Characters are teleported straight in without interruption, so he can't make that decision before the battle starts. Presumably he probably also usually controls what it consumes instead of just letting it out on everything, or doesn't he?
Also... uh, his arm? Doesn't that just have melee range than? Or does his arm fire ranged attacks?

It is literally plot point that Lindon being a Dreadgod is suffering for everyone, they can't be close to one of them unless you are a monarch or sage at least. Majority of the people he interact are those. His arm is his source of being a Dreadgod.

And being within Dreadgod presence are already dangerous enough.

 

[Livinmeme]

I don't know why people are arguing about this, lindon is going to get be a low 1-A smurf soon

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I don't know why people are arguing about this, lindon is going to get be a low 1-A smurf soon

Final send-off before removing him from this list.

 

[Robo432343]

I don't know why people are arguing about this, lindon is going to get be a low 1-A smurf soon

bro you dont know that yet

 

[Livinmeme]

bro you dont know that yet

It is pretty clear and cut.

 

[Robo432343]

It is pretty clear and cut.

thats ur opinion bro
we should just wait

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

For 5-C.

Lindon mutual kill both him and Wang Lin -destroying Wang Lin info type 2 and concept, but then he will regenned himself.

Kagami have weakness that she can't passively defend an attack that she can't imagine, and I'm sure she cannot imagined Willverse Cultivator bullshit. Even if she have resistance to Concept Manip it wasn't layered.

Lindon have this.

[7 Layers of Authority + 16 Layers of Soul/Mind Manipulation/Power Nullification & Resistance]

Bump

 

[Robo432343]

Wei Shi Lindon vs Bai Xiachun

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Wei_Shi_Lindon_(Post-Dreadgod) vs https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Bai_Xiaochun_(Eternal_World) SBA Both 4-A speed =

vsbattles.com

 

[DontTalkDT]

It is literally plot point that Lindon being a Dreadgod is suffering for everyone, they can't be close to one of them unless you are a monarch or sage at least. Majority of the people he interact are those. His arm is his source of being a Dreadgod.

And being within Dreadgod presence are already dangerous enough.

Uh, neither of the quotes shown sound like he erases everything around him at all times, even not taking the resistance of people into consideration?
Or is the man vanishing supposed to be the product of his erasure? Can't really tell without context.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Uh, neither of the quotes shown sound like he erases everything around him at all times, even not taking the resistance of people into consideration?
Or is the man vanishing supposed to be the product of his erasure? Can't really tell without context.

Those are Monarch, which have resistance to his aura. And his Dreadgod Aura is the price he pay for his Dreadgod power. First quote is another Dreadgod that have different aura than Lindon.

He relaxing his power increased its potency, then he can annihilate those monarch. The second quote is him playing around.

Kagami doesn't really have resistance to his layered Icon.

 

[Tempestdragon6]

low 1c tensura about to dominate most of the list

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

low 1c tensura about to dominate most of the list

thought it was only the cosmoloy but no character except God scale to that

 

[Tempestdragon6]

thought it was only the cosmoloy but no character except God scale to that

that's where you're wrong there are atleast 26 characters who will be affected by that

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Anyway, is not like affeting my verses

 

[Wesker018]

low 1c tensura about to dominate most of the list

pretty sure they will be bellow DBH, I remember a thread where Xeno Goku or CC Goku had stomped Rimuru because of the difference in layers, I don't know if anything changed in that regard.

 

[Livinmeme]

Uh, neither of the quotes shown sound like he erases everything around him at all times, even not taking the resistance of people into consideration?
Or is the man vanishing supposed to be the product of his erasure? Can't really tell without context.

Cmon, just taking a little tinny winny bit of madra from an sleeping titan almost made lindon brain dead, and he had like 5 layers of willpower at this point.

 

[Tempestdragon6]

pretty sure they will be bellow DBH, I remember a thread where Xeno Goku or CC Goku had stomped Rimuru because of the difference in layers, I don't know if anything changed in that regard.

nuh uh

 

[Mizuki67]

pretty sure they will be bellow DBH, I remember a thread where Xeno Goku or CC Goku had stomped Rimuru because of the difference in layers, I don't know if anything changed in that regard.

we have layers now we will see about that. Maybe not but the God tiers would be above them since they scale to countless or infinite low 1-c

 

[Mizuki67]

thought it was only the cosmoloy but no character except God scale to that

it will scale to alot of people bro -_- . Surely you all are just coping at this point

 

[Deceived3596]

Amalda (Godspeed) vs Rikuo Nura - Angel vs Yokai

SBA Speed Equalized Hagoromo Gitsune equipped Rikuo is being used Additionally, this is a match for the Non Smurf list. ====================== Rikuo Nura vs Amalda ====================== Voting Nura: Amalda: Incon:

vsbattles.com

Is anyone going to disagree if we remove Godspeed from the list until the verse has someone to defend its position, as I already tried to create a match up, but no one is responding to it, even after several days of waiting.

 

[Robo432343]

pretty sure they will be bellow DBH, I remember a thread where Xeno Goku or CC Goku had stomped Rimuru because of the difference in layers, I don't know if anything changed in that regard.

DBH lost all their conceptual manip juice so they lose now

 

[Wesker018]

DBH lost all their conceptual manip juice so they lose now

Ngl, that's a good match to make when the changes in tensura are applied, I would like to see what the arguments of both verses supporters are.

 

[Dragonite007]

Is anyone going to disagree if we remove Godspeed from the list until the verse has someone to defend its position, as I already tried to create a match up, but no one is responding to it, even after several days of waiting.

Removed

 

[McFriesGuy075]

How far would No Internet Dino get into 9-B? It has Existence Erasure induced by transforming with an Olympic Torch (still making the profile)

Edit: Can also transmutate enemies into paper planes by transforming with the Donut

 

[Livinmeme]

How far would No Internet Dino get into 9-B? It has Existence Erasure induced by transforming with an Olympic Torch (still making the profile)

vsbw users are on drugs, convince me otherwise.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

vsbw users are on drugs, convince me otherwise.

I REGRET NOTHING

 

[Arkenis]

7. Kurumi Tokisaki

8. Characters from Sousei no Onmyouji Gabura, Arima, Tatara

She stops their ascent. Why must she be so haxxed.

8. Salem

9. Sousei no Onmyouji (Kankuro Mitosaka (Manga), Kengo Uji (Manga), Hibari Zeze)

Salem isn't 7-B anymore so she needs to be removed.

 

[Yeolban]

Hanako for a spot in 10-A and Yugi Tsukasa for a spot in 9-B, please

 

[Livinmeme]

Lance tismo above flect in Low 7-B. Higher AP, amps, considerably more skilled, a decent ammount of dura neg haxes

 

[Yeolban]

Hanako for a spot in 10-A and Yugi Tsukasa for a spot in 9-B, please

I'd like to place Hanako in top 3 in 10-A as Sabrina Spellman can't even interact with Hanako who has incorporeality and can't do anything against his BFR, maybe even top 2 as I don't know if Sheville Warhand can do anything against Hanako's sealing & statistics reduction, sleep manip or Hanako straight up sending him in another point in time with his BFR that works in any world (in a multiversal+ verse) at any point in time.

Yugi Tsukasa should be able to get top 4 in 9-B as he shouldn't be affected by Aburatori's time stuff (bc of aca1) and Aburatori can't even interact with Tsukasa (due to his incorporeality). Also can't do anything against Tsukasa's BFR which works the same as Hanako's or his Reality Manip.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'd like to place Hanako in top 3 in 10-A as Sabrina Spellman can't even interact with Hanako who has incorporeality and can't do anything against his BFR, maybe even top 2 as I don't know if Sheville Warhand can do anything against Hanako's sealing & statistics reduction, sleep manip or Hanako straight up sending him in another point in time with his BFR that works in any world (in a multiversal+ verse) at any point in time.

Yugi Tsukasa should be able to get top 4 in 9-B as he shouldn't be affected by Aburatori's time stuff (bc of aca1) and Aburatori can't even interact with Tsukasa (due to his incorporeality). Also can't do anything against Tsukasa's BFR which works the same as Hanako's or his Reality Manip.

Basic bitch Incorporeality? Yeah anybody with NPI slams them both lol

 

[Shadowslash125]

Yugi Tsukasa should be able to get top 4 in 9-B as he shouldn't be affected by Aburatori's time stuff (bc of aca1) and Aburatori can't even interact with Tsukasa (due to his incorporeality). Also can't do anything against Tsukasa's BFR which works the same as Hanako's or his Reality Manip.

Basic bitch Incorporeality? Yeah anybody with NPI slams them both lol

Yea sorry, Yugi isn't getting past Hiden Aruto.

 

[deonment]

I'd like to place Hanako in top 3 in 10-A as Sabrina Spellman can't even interact with Hanako who has incorporeality and can't do anything against his BFR, maybe even top 2 as I don't know if Sheville Warhand can do anything against Hanako's sealing & statistics reduction, sleep manip or Hanako straight up sending him in another point in time with his BFR that works in any world (in a multiversal+ verse) at any point in time.

LoTM characters ******* murder lmao

Yugi Tsukasa should be able to get top 4 in 9-B as he shouldn't be affected by Aburatori's time stuff (bc of aca1) and Aburatori can't even interact with Tsukasa (due to his incorporeality). Also can't do anything against Tsukasa's BFR which works the same as Hanako's or his Reality Manip.

Not only is that not how it works (type 1 aca only stops you from being affected by your past being changed), and either way, that isn't going to stop Aburatori's powers, especially the destiny fuckery considering how (apparently) he can still affect people who have resistance to timeline fuckery
Hell he doesn't get past Owari people who all have CM1 and just beat him that way, he just gets locked up in a concept space and done
Aiko has NPI and enough hax to win
Giggles exists and passively kills him, let alone the fact that he can't actually do anything to him by way of Comicality saying "No"