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Top 15 Strongest Non-Smurfs for Every Tier Continuation 4.0

Livinmeme said:
Plot manip says hi, and I don't think he can kill him because NEP2 just kicks in. Specially when Cebollin apparently has a higher scaling on speed
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1) He straight up resists
2)That is NEP1 and very much doesn't seem combat relevant and only seems like a state to be regenned back from
3)You mean the immeasurable speed that Wei Huo already scales to and that I see no reason for Cebollina to scale anywhere far enough above baseline for it to matter when Wei Huo brings out Dao Integration or just throws him into a black hole
Livinmeme said:
Nah, He isn't doing shit to them
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And they can't do shit to him either because law AE1 vs CM1 AE1
Livinmeme said:
How does law manip work, and could it hypothetically bypass AE based on a type 1 concept?
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He doesn't have to because Clockwork can't affect him, but considering how Clockwork is an abstract based on time and not in a conceptual (or at the very least not CM1) way, and is very much affected by time getting right and ****** over, if Wei Huo were to just use his control over the entire multiverse he would literally just be able to **** up the situation worse than Dark Danny ever could and either kill him or horribly incap him at worst
 
deonment said:
1) He straight up resists
2)That is NEP1 and very much doesn't seem combat relevant and only seems like a state to be regenned back from
3)You mean the immeasurable speed that Wei Huo already scales to and that I see no reason for Cebollina to scale anywhere far enough above baseline for it to matter when Wei Huo brings out Dao Integration or just throws him into a black hole
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1) To be honest I had forgotten that china men had resistance to plot (which looks more like immunity to plot, due to literally lacking it but eh..)
2) He can still interact even when he was erased from the plot
3) Cebollina casually outrunned not flash, and not flash was able to do an inmensurable feat casually
And they can't do shit to him either because law AE1 vs CM1 AE1
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CM1 should take priority to regular Law manip right? Due to being more abstract, and the regular bitch law manip being the equivalent of CM2
He doesn't have to because Clockwork can't affect him, but considering how Clockwork is an abstract based on time and not in a conceptual (or at the very least not CM1) way, and is very much affected by time getting right and ****** over, if Wei Huo were to just use his control over the entire multiverse he would literally just be able to **** up the situation worse than Dark Danny ever could and either kill him or horribly incap him at worst
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Nop
 
Livinmeme said:
1) To be honest I had forgotten that china men had resistance to plot (which looks more like immunity to plot, due to literally lacking it but eh..)
2) He can still interact even when he was erased from the plot
3) Cebollina casually outrunned not flash, and not flash was able to do an inmensurable feat casually
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That ain't what the profile says, considering how it says limited and how he could only talk while erased
That doesn't give anything but vaguely above baseline speed, which is nowhere near speedblitz or unreactable levels
Livinmeme said:
CM1 should take priority to regular Law manip right? Due to being more abstract, and the regular bitch law manip being the equivalent of CM2
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???
No, all laws are just straight up not dependent upon their "particulars" innately, they aren't reliant upon the interactions they govern to exist, they are the reasons the interactions exist in the first place
And even if it was the case (it isn't) the rules that Wei Huo uses and embodies are superordinate to not only our usual laws of physics, but the laws of literally every world out there, he walked into a world where ******* biology, chemistry and physics were all different on a fundamental level and was perfectly fine, this ain't basic bitch law manip (and the idea that there is such a thing is wild to me because anybody who tells you manipulating the laws of physics is basic needs to go read a physics textbook)
And either way, it wouldn't matter, because these are two different types of abstractions, a concept aren't the cause of laws and laws don't govern concepts, both are equally abstract, you aren't gonna just affect a law by way of being a concept in the same way being able to kick a ghost in the shins won't let you punch an elemental
Livinmeme said:
Nop
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You see that doesn't mean shit here because he has ae2 on time and explicitly is affected when time is as well, so if time or the multiverse gets nuked he is getting nuked too
 
deonment said:
You see that doesn't mean shit here because he has ae2 on time and explicitly is affected when time is as well, so if time or the multiverse gets nuked he is getting nuked too
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No he wouldn't. All DP ghosts true selves are conceptual in nature (type 1) / AE Type 1. Clockwork's AE Type 2 is for his Avatar/Manifestation which is the form he created that is the embodiment of time. You can see how time shifts for the form repeatedly and when Dan overshadowed him, attacks on the body effect time and damage to the timeline effects his avatar. A ghosts true self is made up of something that predates time so nuking the timeline would just nuke Clockwork's avatar, not his true self (His true self can't do much though since they make bodies to interact with the real world)

Now I'm not saying Clockwork wins or incon, I think that guy is superior and can beat more people than Clockwork but I am correcting you regarding Clockwork's Abstract Existence Type 2 getting him nuked when his true self has Type 1. That's just not happening.
 
deonment said:
That ain't what the profile says, considering how it says limited and how he could only talk while erased
That doesn't give anything but vaguely above baseline speed, which is nowhere near speedblitz or unreactable levels
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Actually is limited because he need to get erased to enter in the state, but beside that, he can act and interact with everything
 
deonment said:
No, all laws are just straight up not dependent upon their "particulars" innately, they aren't reliant upon the interactions they govern to exist, they are the reasons the interactions exist in the first place
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The same thing could be said about concepts, yet they are still dependent on the universe
deonment said:
And even if it was the case (it isn't) the rules that Wei Huo uses and embodies are superordinate to not only our usual laws of physics, but the laws of literally every world out there, he walked into a world where ******* biology, chemistry and physics were all different on a fundamental level and was perfectly fine, this ain't basic bitch law manip (and the idea that there is such a thing is wild to me because anybody who tells you manipulating the laws of physics is basic needs to go read a physics textbook)
Click to expand...
Still based on universes. The law manip that Wei huo has showed is still dependent on universes (theorically destroying the universe, could destroy those laws, going by Depended metaphysic logic)
deonment said:
And either way, it wouldn't matter, because these are two different types of abstractions, a concept aren't the cause of laws and laws don't govern concepts, both are equally abstract, you aren't gonna just affect a law by way of being a concept in the same way being able to kick a ghost in the shins won't let you punch an elemental
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A basic bitch law is dependent on the universe, because basic bitch concepts are dependent on the universe, it makes no sense that only one is depndent on the universe (without evidence saying/implying otherwise), but the other doesn't. Massive double standard
 
Livinmeme said:
The same thing could be said about concepts, yet they are still dependent on the universe
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Don't know where you are getting that from, concepts (and their types) only care about their particulars, universe be damned
Livinmeme said:
A basic bitch law is dependent on the universe, because basic bitch concepts are dependent on the universe, it makes no sense that only one is depndent on the universe (without evidence saying/implying otherwise), but the other doesn't. Massive double standard
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Lol, lmao
Something being dependent on the universe doesn't make it not type 1 (or an equivalent), because for such we literally only care about the thing's relation to their particulars, which is the damn only thing that matters in the first place when it comes to that, because a concept literally only affects (and can be dependent upon) its particulars
Either way it isn't a double standard because that is simply the ways laws work, they are responsible for phenomena, they are not reliant upon phenomena, just because the unified force no longer exists doesn't mean the laws which govern it don't either
Livinmeme said:
Still based on universes. The law manip that Wei huo has showed is still dependent on universes (theorically destroying the universe, could destroy those laws, going by Depended metaphysic logic)
Click to expand...
I, no?
Mythical beings could absolutely just nuke the universe if they wanted and be fine, because their Rules are (as I will once more say) superordinate to literally every law that isn't in-of-itself a rule,, and is not dependent upon the universe to exist, hell Wei Huo's law is that of death itself, something which it is beyond obscene to try and claim that there exists an instance of it at every moment so if he were a dependent for some reason he would cease to be
 
Laws aren't really universe-dependent just looking at precedent on the site, let alone the nitty-gritty of it. This doesn't grant them superiority to concepts whatsoever but it's something to be clear about.
 
Wasn't there a CRT or staff discussion that revised powers like plot, law, fate and conceptual manipulation so that none are inherently superior to the other?
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Wasn't there a CRT or staff discussion that revised powers like plot, law, fate and conceptual manipulation so that none are inherently superior to the other?
Click to expand...
Thread & Page
But when it comes to equalising metaphysical aspects, it is also a fact that nobody will easily accept a metaphysical equalisation where a character they support might lose. So as far as I'm concerned, nothing has changed.
 
Setsuna_tenma said:
No. She has 2A immortality which makes her hard to kill without 2A range
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Wouldn't this be an incap like in Low 2-C? Cause she just keeps dying without doing anything. If not then I wouldn't mind a tie.
 
Planck69 said:
Wouldn't this be an incap like in Low 2-C? Cause she just keeps dying without doing anything. If not then I wouldn't mind a tie.
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Eventhough XY incap with Medea, but he still can beat Mundus due to Passive CM1, while Mundus don't have CM1 resistance.
 
deonment said:
Don't know where you are getting that from, concepts (and their types) only care about their particulars, universe be damned
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Huh? What kind of inane headcanon is that, why should basic bitch law manip act different from basic bitch concept manip?
 
Livinmeme said:
Huh? What kind of inane headcanon is that, why should basic bitch law manip act different from basic bitch concept manip?
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It's not headcanon. Concept types have nothing to do with their relationship to the universe. Concept types are determined based on the particulars (object) the concept governs. The concept of fire is type 1 if it is independent of all fire not the universe, being tied to or dependent on the universe doesn't change that.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
It's not headcanon. Concept types have nothing to do with their relationship to the universe. Concept types are determined based on the particulars (object) the concept governs. The concept of fire is type 1 if it is independent of all fire not the universe, being tied to or dependent on the universe doesn't change that.
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You are agreeing with me, you know that? Concepts are bound to the objects, which are bound to the goddamn universe
 
Planck69 said:
Even Type 1 concepts aren't innately superior to laws. And objects aren't "bound" to the universe that way, Idk where that came from.
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Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This
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You just gave a description of what I believe is Type 2 CM. Why?
 
And not one sentence in that paragraph says as much, only emphasising the relationship between object and concept. Quite literally a non-sequitir.
 
Planck69 said:
And not one sentence in that paragraph says as much, only emphasising the relationship between object and concept. Quite literally a non-sequitir.
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We are arguing about semantics right now.
No, the concepts aren't bound to the universe, they are bound to objects...Which are in the universe
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That's not semantics though. This whole thing started because you believe that a concept is bound to anything other than its object. Adding that the object is in the universe doesn't change that fundamental fact that deonment was right and none of our pages say otherwise.

You can keep arguing that odd technicality. Our standards just plain don't reflect what your saying. All there is to it.
 
Planck69 said:
That's not semantics though. This whole thing started because you believe that a concept is bound to anything other than its object. Adding that the object is in the universe doesn't change that fundamental fact that deonment was right and none of our pages say otherwise.
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No it isn't, this thing started because I mentioned like ten times, that normal law manip should be the equivalent of normal CM, making it dependent on the universe, and being inferior to CM1
 
vsbattles.fandom.com

Godzilla (Godzilla Singular Point Novelization)

Godzilla (ゴジラ, Gojira?) is a kaiju who appears in the novelization of the anime "Godzilla: Singular Point", written by Toh EnJoe. In the novel, Godzilla is the physical body, the main "trunk" of "It", the cosmic entity who consumes universes to expand its domain. It is constantly evolving and...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Godzilla (Godzilla Singular Point Novelization) for top 4 1-B

He scales to Countless dimensions thus being above the current top 4 who scale to hundreds.
 
Momo Yozakura for the 11th spot in Low 7-C. None of the JJK characters have an answer to being Dream and memory haxed. And Elemental Intangibility and Teleportation are his bread and butter, meaning they’ll almost never hit him before he decides to just use it, plus he’s got better AP than them as a bonus.

Tzveta Kooriskaya to place hold in 8-A since they still got an empty space at 12. Since her sleep and mind manip is close to a starting move for her, wouldn’t hurt to put her there.
 
Jackof_noTrades068 said:
Momo Yozakura for the 11th spot in Low 7-C. None of the JJK characters have an answer to being Dream and memory haxed. And Elemental Intangibility and Teleportation are his bread and butter, meaning they’ll almost never hit him before he decides to just use it, plus he’s got better AP than them as a bonus.

Tzveta Kooriskaya to place hold in 8-A since they still got an empty space at 12. Since her sleep and mind manip is close to a starting move for her, wouldn’t hurt to put her there.
Click to expand...
Added
 
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