Toon Force possible deletion

[Agnaa]

Sadly, this is wrong. A trope is similar/ or is s theme in a work of fiction. Calling toon force a trope is like equating it to "Horro" or "Adventure". Those are tropes that explain tge nature of a work. "Toon force" is an ability in fictional works. It's like calling "RW" or "Elemental manipulation" a trope. Which i don't need to say how dumb is that.

I think I and others have made better comparisons in this thread. I think "toon force" is more similar to "the power of friendship", "the main character winning", "the rule of cool", and "mary sues", which I don't think should be added as powers similar to "statistics amplification", "plot manip/probability manip", "reality warping/physics manip", and "plot manip/empathic manip" respectively.

Using this logic, RW would just be matter manip+space time manip+ HDM. Yes "Toon force" is similar to RW. But many works of fiction depicts the two as different abilites and that should be enough to treat them as such.

Do they? I had the impression that most series just had one or the other.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

1-Comparing "Gag powers" which is an ability to "Power of friendship" which is a trope is....eh. Both are'n the same. You still haven't given any good reason to why "Gag powers" and "Toon force" is a trope.
2- Well look no furher than DB. It makes difference between normal and serious fighting style and gag powers and toon force.

 

[QuasiYuri]

1-Comparing "Gag powers" which is an ability to "Power of friendship" which is a trope is....eh. Both are'n the same. You still haven't given any good reason to why "Gag powers" and "Toon force" is a trope.

Tv tropes literaly as it as one. Can't do any straighter than a website about tropes having you.
Also wikipedia page says the same. In fact the very person who uses it say so, as shown in the links.

Also no offense but you definitely don't seem to know what a tropes is. Horror and Adventure are genre, not tropes.

2- Well look no furher than DB. It makes difference between normal and serious fighting style and gag powers and toon force.

Adressed in the OP.

 

[QuasiYuri]

And overall, I don't think it's too much of a loss to have my idea; redirect from Toon Force to Reality Warping. That should keep the explanatory power you seem to want from the current pages without requiring any work, and encourages later pages to properly explain them instead.

Just wanna say this solution sadly isn't possible. Some have Toon Force only for mere offscreen regeneration (aka the thing we consider as not accepted for Regeneration) or Elasticity.

Going through 'em all by myself would be the best solution.

 

[Propellus]

Wasn't this already rejected?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Wasn't this already rejected?

No. So far there's good staff input on either sides.
If you don't have relevant input, please refrain from commenting.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DontTalk. Calling "Toon force a trope" make it sound like it's a genre of a fictional work rather than a power. Especially when alot of "toon force users [Dr.slump characters, looney tunes, the mask etc...] specifically refer to thier "toon force" as an ability, which it is.
How about this:
Toon force:
Toon force is an ability that refers to character manipulating reality in order to achieve imposible feats and comedic effects. The users bend reality in such a way to make situations "Comedic" and "Funny." Not to he confused with Reality warping which effects reality in a more serious way.

I think this is pretty dumb.

Toon Force exists to showcase that a character can passively defy the laws of reality and ignore logic sometimes (and in certain cases purposely) for comedic effect, usually given to goofy characters who don't care about consistency (typically most cartoons). The keywords being "passively," "defying logic," and "goofy".

Reality Warping is used more intentionally and in a more serious tone, and it's not always passive. RW CAN influence the plot, it CAN perform basically all the functions of Toon Force, but the key difference is that one is inherently passive due to the character's very nature and existence being made to be humorous and isn't always consistent. Someone equated it to that of a physiology which holds some truth. Hell, Toon Force, Reality Warping, Fate Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Supernatural Luck/Probability Manipulation can ALL do the same things, essentially and are quite similar amongst each other in that their range of applications can be essentially endless. However, each one has a specific niche to them. For Toon Force, I'd postulate that unlike most cases of RW, it's much more of a physical ability. It relates to what the character can tank, dish out, and manipulate utilizing unconventional means. I've yet to see a TF user warp an entire background; instead, they use screen transitions/cutaways if they want to change the environment usually. Not really a useful tool in battle but it's not something reality warpers typically do. Toon Force I'd say has a very close-knitted relationship with 4th Wall Awareness, manipulating plot, and ignoring reality for gags. How can one not see how it's inherently different to RW which is just a general vague supernatural power for people who can manipulate reality. I'd argue Toon Force has been much more defined.

We already have overlap with abilities on the wiki as well so I don't see why this is such an issue. And like others have said, I can't wait to trudge through every single toon force user's media to define every single ability they've showcased under the umbrella label of Toon Force and also judge their every feat to determine if it's a gag and thus unusable or not; yet I also can't wait for the alternative where we just delete every toon character off the wiki because apparently they don't have any abilities at all and all their feats are simply gags.

So do you want to go around and add these explanations to all the profiles? It's a nice idealistic stance, but in my experience with the wiki expecting the explanations to be consistently done, or especially reworked for current profiles, is quite simply unrealistic.

The fact that reality warping is sometimes listed for minor uses has no impact on the argument. It has the same problems, just that contrary to toon force we don't have an already existing and widespread way of improving upon it.

The above posts make good sense to me. It seems extremely unlikely that this suggestion will be accepted, as it is far more practical to keep the ability.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Keeping it just shows how the unwilling the wiki is of doing any change. And people think stuff like revising DC won't fail because "it's too much work" when this is already too much for lazy-ass here.

 

[Antvasima]

We have done lots of drastic changes over the years, but we still have to be careful to not apply unnecessary changes that would require considerably work and put the wiki in a worse state than before they were applied. You cannot expect to have every suggestion accepted.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Pretty sure that adressing a problem nobody wants to deal with isn't really putting things in a "worse state".

However, having countless additions that pass a thousand time faster than anything that changes standard definitely makes things worse than they were before.

There's a difference between accepting everything and whining about something being "too much work" or "it's inaccurate but we keep it for simplicity" while constantly being proud of being an over 30000 pages wiki

 

[Antvasima]

Again, I think that it is much more practical to keep this ability, for several reasons taht were listed earlier, even though it overlaps with a few other powers, but as DontTalk mentioned earlier in this thread, listing the specifically demonstrated abilities in conjunction, for better clarification purposes, is fine if you wish.

Again, just because we disagree with you in this particular instance, this does not remotely mean that we have some kind of scandalously bad general approach for managing this place.

Also, I removed a bad word above that you should know better than to use here.

 

[Eficiente]

Toon Force is not a superpower, if some characters specifically have it as such then good for them but so can any character can use anything as a power, it's too individual.

Keeping it just shows how the unwilling the wiki is of doing any change.

This hits right on the truth. But, neither is walking away from here w/o doing anything a solution.

We can still replace the Power & Abilities category for the Terms category, put a Note saying that it used to be used as a power but not anymore, and maybe change the wording a bit. Surely there is nothing wrong with doing at the very least this, and then maybe more either now or in the future.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, just because we do not accept all changes does not mean that we haven't accepted quite a lot of more well-considered very drastic changes in the past.

 

[Agnaa]

Out of the staff members who have clearly given their opinion...

4 support deletion: QuasiYuri, KingTempest, Damage3245, and Planck69.

6 oppose deletion, and want a reword instead: Dark-Carioca, Antvasima, The_Impress, DontTalkDT, LordGriffin1000, Therefir

1 declared neutrality: Eficiente

 

[Pikaman]

Is there any so far that are completely fine with how it is now?

 

[Eficiente]

7 oppose deletion, and want a reword instead: Dark-Carioca, Antvasima, The_Impress, Eficiente, DontTalkDT, LordGriffin1000, Therefir

Well, I'm kinda neutral. It's correct that it should be deleted, but I give alternatives in case that doesn't happen.

 

[QuasiYuri]

We can still replace the Power & Abilities category for the Terms category, put a Note saying that it used to be used as a power but not anymore, and maybe change the wording a bit. Surely there is nothing wrong with doing at the very least this, and then maybe more either now or in the future.

I did give a solution since the very beginning tho. Main point against is "too much work for this 30000 pages wiki".

Putting it as Terms sounds good, since Game Mechanics is kind of the video game equivalent and it is put as such.

Again, I think that it is much more practical to keep this ability, for several reasons taht were listed earlier, even though it overlaps with a few other powers, but as DontTalk mentioned earlier in this thread, listing the specifically demonstrated abilities in conjunction, for better clarification purposes, is fine if you wish.

My point isn't about overlaping.

Again, just because we disagree with you in this particular instance, this does not remotely mean that we have some kind of scandalously bad general approach for managing this place.

Please, don't act like this particular thread is what make me say this. The wiki is getting called out for its bad general approach all the time.
Changes are so slow you need months (if not years) for most important things because nobody find the will to care enough.

Also, I removed a bad word above that you should know better than to use here.

I think I said it more than once in here actually. Aren't bad words supposed to be censored?

Again, just because we do not accept all changes does not mean that we haven't accepted quite a lot of more well-considered very drastic changes in the past.

Not sure about well-considered given how some of them are mostly inventions or have glaring flaws.
Them being drastic does help my point of how "too much work" is hypocrite tho.

 

[Agnaa]

Them being drastic does help my point of how "too much work" is hypocrite tho.

It's not hypocrisy, it's just not mentioning the entire cost-benefit calculation.

They see this change as a moderate cost for little benefit, or in other words, it is "too much work" (for the benefit it provides), while more drastic changes are seen as having a greater benefit, making them worth the work despite requiring more work.

I would've responded to more of your post, but it feels kind of derail-y.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I strongly agree with DontTalkDT here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that QuasiYuri no longer counts as staff, and Medeus also agrees with DontTalk, I think that the initial suggestion has been rejected.

We do need to decide how and if the page should be reworded though.

As for not enough work getting done quicker, there are only so many hours available for work every day for myself and other staff members, both in this wiki/forum/community and IRL. I obviously wish that we would get many more important revisions finished though.

 

[The_Impress]

We’re volunteer-workers on this site, if there is NO INCENTIVE to fix the problem, whether it’d be personal satisfaction or otherwise, you can’t really apply a revision.

If you can muster up a decent chunk of users to help out with what you want, great, if you find alternative solutions to lessen workload for your revision, great, don't expect us to slave for something as excessively minor as a contentious ability deletion, this isn't being lazy, this is not being a sucker.

Faster users understand it the better tbh, let alone get angry enough to leave slurs over it.

If anyone wants to argue on behalf of Yuri WHILE noting feasibility of its application please be heard.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, agreed, even if I would have tried to express myself a bit less harshly.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, do we need to reword our explanation text for the page, and if so, how?

 

[The_Impress]

Better ask DT, I wasn't following this thread in terms of the logic given for deletion, just that I knew feasibility for it was tough by conception.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that QuasiYuri no longer counts as staff, and Medeus also agrees with DontTalk, I think that the initial suggestion has been rejected.

We do need to decide how and if the page should be reworded though.

Anyway, do we need to reword our explanation text for the page, and if so, how?

Better ask DT, I wasn't following this thread in terms of the logic given for deletion, just that I knew feasibility for it was tough by conception.

@DontTalkDT

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Toon force:
Toon force is an ability that refers to characters manipulating reality and bypassing physical laws of nature in order to achieve imposible feats for comedic effects. The users bend reality in such a way to make situations "Comedic" and "Funny." It should not be confused with Reality Warping, which effects reality in more serious ways.

Is this better?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I tried to clean up the language structure in your post a bit above.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Thank you soo much! I would also like to request arale and gachan from Dr.slump to be added in characters that use toon force in the toon force page. Or replace https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nui_Harime this character from the page to Arale. [The reason for this i believe that Arale has more notable toom force feats and more well known. But i could be wrong.]

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

Let's wait to see what the other members here think. They may have better explanation text suggestions.

 

[Jibz]

The P&A on the toon force page itself should include more examples of abilities that fit under toon force aswell.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that seems like a good idea.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Toon force:
Toon force is an ability that refers to characters manipulating reality and bypassing physical laws of nature in order to achieve imposible feats for comedic effects. The users bend reality in such a way to make situations "Comedic" and "Funny." It should not be confused with Reality Warping, which effects reality in more serious ways.

Is this better?

Seems like a good start. To address some of the things brought up in the thread we could extend that further:

Toon Force, also named Cartoon Physics, is an ability that refers to characters manipulating reality or bypassing physical laws of nature in order to achieve impossible feats for comedic effects. The users bend reality in such a way to make situations "Comedic" and "Funny." It should not be confused with Reality Warping, which effects reality in more serious ways.

Similarly to Reality Warping or Magic, Toon force has uncountable applications and virtually no users is able to employ all of them. As such other abilities archieved through this power should be listed on the page to specify the scope of the character's use of Toon Force.

 

[Bobsican]

My only issue with the current wording is the "no users is able to" part, the "is", should be an "are" as we're using plural here.
So it'd be "no users are able to", we could also alternatively just abbreviate to "no users can".

If we also call the power Cartoon Physics, then I also think it should have a redirect of that name to the respective page.

 

[Jibz]

For the love of god don't call it Cartoon Physics.

 

[Armorchompy]

Toon Force is actually used by people outside of VS debating, it's by far the best name possible, we don't need to make up one that's just gonna confuse people.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pinkie Pie is a good example where there's an actual in verse lore explaining her Toon Force. And I also agree that the name change is a bad idea.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that DontTalk's new wording (which I slightly cleaned up the structure of) is good enough to apply.

I am also fine with using a redirect link from "Cartoon Physics" to the "Toon Force" page, as I have also seen the former name used on occasion.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

I think we should just keep it as "Toon force" and to avoid confusion tbh.
Cartoon physics sounds wrong for some reason.

 

[Therefir]

We are not changing the names, adding a redirect from Cartoon Physics to Toon Force should be fine.

 

[Antvasima]

We are not changing the names, adding a redirect from Cartoon Physics to Toon Force should be fine.

Yes, we will not change the name, just add a redirect link.