Toon Force possible deletion

[QuasiYuri]

Also it's to note that slapping "Toon Force" won't answer what the ability is.
Unless one want to have a bunch of tropes in P&A instead of actual abilities.

 

[Propellus]

And how would you also explain when Ant ran over Aardvark's hole, making it float around?

 

[QuasiYuri]

And how would you also explain when Ant ran over Aardvark's hole, making it float around?

RW or Matter Manipulation would be the first contender that come to mind.

And remember : Toon Force isn't an explanation, that's why we have every feats under their respective abilities.

Feats being harder to quantify than others isn't a novelty. I'm pretty sure this feat could be found in a more serious work as well.

 

[Lilixa]

i hardly find toon force is useful in vs battle (empirically) to be honest. Most of them probably stuck at matter, energy, time and spatial manip. The moment we introduced CM1 , transduality, and NEP type 1. Toon force would be getting trashed.

 

[Antvasima]

Then their pages might as well not exist when almost everything that do is random (I'm referring to dead on gag/toon characters like Loony Toons). They would have almost nothing using that logic.

This is my concern as well. It is much more practical to categorise what they are doing as Toon Force, i.e. specific types of reality warping connected to a cartoony nature. The alternatives would turn much more complicated and hard to properly define.

 

[The_Impress]

Meh, I feel it's too late to do a deletion on this scale, so may files JUST list toon force and call it a day afterall,

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it would be very time-consuming and complicated to properly replace it in all the pages that list it currently.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I offered a reason above as to why it should be kept, or at least reworded.

I don't think it should be deleted, but I won't repeat what I typed beforehand.

 

[Antvasima]

If memory serves, it's the Coyote that does that in order for the Road Runner to slam into the mountain, only to smash right into it while the Road Runner runs through the tunnel.

Anyway...

Toon Force has been a weird power for a while, I've always felt that it should be added to the P&A section like this: "Toon Force (includes Reality Warping, Superhuman Physical Characteristics, etc)", since on the regular Toon Force-y characters will have Toon Force but not superhuman strength and the like, so the P&A section should list what abilities those characters have shown while under the effects of Toon Force. Manga/anime characters (other genres as well but these ones in particular) having so many gag moments so often is mostly tonal inconsistency on part of the authors or animators who don't wanna bother to explain it, they'll just know the audience will laugh at and run with it no matter how little it makes sense, unless the series was comedic to begin with (Dr. Slump, Pucca, etc).

Toon Force should be rephrased in P&A sections, not deleted from the wiki entirely, because it's still a noteworthy aspect of battleboarding discussions under many parameters.

These seem like good suggestions to me.

 

[Bobsican]

TBH I always was uncomfortable with how we have no "outlier" policy for P&A stuff unlike any other parts of a profile, like, I don't think it's appropiate to claim many abilities for a character they've only used once and never again, so I agree with the removal of the power. Toon Force at best is just a glorified category for powers based around the trope, but unlike Elemental Manipulation and Status Effect Inducement, it means even less its own, as much as someone can have Toon Force just by having exaggerated body proportions at times, doesn't necessarily anyone has it for that particular reason in the first place, and it doesn't help pages don't even explain it, so removing it in fact wouldn't be particularly detrimental to remove it as nothing is being really lost.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Meh, I feel it's too late to do a deletion on this scale, so may files JUST list toon force and call it a day afterall,

It isn't too late. These files have NO justifications, and we've had way more complex deletion with more profiles. Hetre a simple bot should be enough.

Otherwise we should accept tropes such as Power of Friendship having their own pages

 

[QuasiYuri]

This is my concern as well. It is much more practical to categorise what they are doing as Toon Force, i.e. specific types of reality warping connected to a cartoony nature. The alternatives would turn much more complicated and hard to properly define.

The alternative is ALREADY in use on every single user's profiles. They are all noted as the actual power each feat correspond to..

This concern can't exist since there's no problem to begin with

 

[Armorchompy]

A bot is definitely not something that can carry this out lol, how would you even do that

 

[Bobsican]

Just replace [[Toon Force]] and [[Category:Toon Force Users]] with nothing, it'd be quite that simple.
Some cases may use parenthesis to clarify, but that's quite rare and the one using the bot would be surpervising anyways.

 

[Armorchompy]

Some cases may use parenthesis to clarify, but that's quite rare and the one using the bot would be surpervising anyways.

No it isn't rare at all, and that is waaay more work than you're making it sound, you might as well not use a bot at all since you'd need to check every single page, not to mention just removing an ability without replacements is really stupid when clearly that ability stood for something in the profile

 

[Jibz]

The whole ordeal seems like far more effort then just making the p&a section for toonforce more extensive.

 

[Propellus]

It isn't too late. These files have NO justifications, and we've had way more complex deletion with more profiles. Hetre a simple bot should be enough.

Otherwise we should accept tropes such as Power of Friendship having their own pages

Because simply characters who possess toon force are usually too common to even have a justification listed, especially looking at their wacky feats enough is toon force

 

[Bobsican]

No it isn't rare at all, and that is waaay more work than you're making it sound, you might as well not use a bot at all since you'd need to check every single page, not to mention just removing an ability without replacements is really stupid when clearly that ability stood for something in the profile

Not really, if the supervising mode is on, it immediately shifts from page to page, highlighting what'd be changed by default, one can immediately just select the extra text and remove it then let the bot continue to the next page

We already did this to remove Abstract Existence type 3, if your concern is some power that isn't even indexed on the profile being lost, the one managing the bot can make note then ask the supporters of the verse in question to do a CRT, that was done for such case, for instance.

 

[Propellus]

Because simply characters who possess toon force are usually too common to even have a justification listed, especially looking at their wacky feats enough is toon force

And the point is, taking this ability away from what is important to these characters is like cereal without milk. It doesn't matter if it isn't an actual ability, it's still noteworthy and important to most of these characters because it completes them. Removing toon force entirely just makes no sense. And it just makes their feats and abilities even more questionable how it is even pulled off in the first place without the use of toon force

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Hmmm... interesting, a power/ability is something you can do but saying you do toon force is like saying you have a series of stuff you can do under a certain category. Doing toon force is doing different stuff/laws that's considered funny for the situation but funny itself is subjective. Though I do know that characters that do have different fundamentals/law are considered an ability (i.e. unconventional physiology). What separates a bunch of stuff you can do under a category from a (single) power? We do have reality warping, which can do stuff & also rewrite laws in a nonfunny way.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Also, how is toon force a trope? Do we have other powers that are trope? What separates toon force from other powers like unconventional physiology?

 

[Planck69]

And the point is, taking this ability away from what is important to these characters is like cereal without milk. It doesn't matter if it isn't an actual ability, it's still noteworthy and important to most of these characters because it completes them. Removing toon force entirely just makes no sense. And it just makes their feats and abilities even more questionable how it is even pulled off in the first place without the use of toon force

This is a complete non sequitur. An ability doesn't need a logical origin for it to exist. A character can very much just do things because they can and that doesn't make their ability to do those things any less valid if its a consistent aspect of them.

Not even going to bother with the argument that "it completes them" cause that's just pointless.


Anyway, I'm fine with deletion but I can see how this would be a daunting project to undertake.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Not to mention just removing an ability without replacements is really stupid when clearly that ability stood for something in the profile

Did you check the profiles? You'll see that it isn't true with even the page's featured characters.

And the point is, taking this ability away from what is important to these characters is like cereal without milk. It doesn't matter if it isn't an actual ability, it's still noteworthy and important to most of these characters because it completes them. Removing toon force entirely just makes no sense. And it just makes their feats and abilities even more questionable how it is even pulled off in the first place without the use of toon force

It's a tropes. If you want tropes to be abilities change the standard.
I already mentioned characters who have power without a reason why. It's not an issue.
Also "completes them" is wrong and just a gateway for uselessness.

Also, how is toon force a trope? Do we have other powers that are trope? What separates toon force from other powers like unconventional physiology?

Already explained and shown in the OP with sources.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also for those saying it would be a lot of hardwork:

It only has 606 users, with half of them having no justifications. I could do it manually by myself and it would take me less than 3/4 days if I took my time.

Also, if we stop doing things because "it's a lot" then why are we even managing a 30000 pages wiki trying to add stuff, remove stuff, correct stuff or improve stuff overall ? Sounds like a hell lot of work to me.

 

[Armorchompy]

Did you check the profiles? You'll see that it isn't true with even the page's featured characters.

Have you checked every single one? This isn't a "vague hax ability we decided doesn't exist anymore" situation, it's a "everyone knows what this is and it needs to be replaced with something unique for all 606 characters that have it since it can be no longer used as a short-hand to refer to it", you'd need special analysis for every single page

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies, but I agree with Armorchompy. I do not think that the majority of these 606 pages have all of the displayed components of toon force explicitly stated in the pages. It would require properly investigating the exact nature of all of the characters that have the ability listed during the revision, and I still consider it quite practical to list it compared to the alternative.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Have you checked every single one? This isn't a "vague hax ability we decided doesn't exist anymore" situation, it's a "everyone knows what this is and it needs to be replaced with something unique for all 606 characters that have it since it can be no longer used as a short-hand to refer to it", you'd need special analysis for every single page

Can you show any example of that? I checked myself, and to me you just try to put a hypothetical scenario.
Toon Force can be anything, it doesn't add anything relevant to the page that has it, and it is not an ability.
There's no need to replace it with anything, because the pages that have it already have every individual feats associated with the according power already.

My apologies, but I agree with Armorchompy. I do not think that the majority of these 606 pages have all of the displayed components of toon force explicitly stated in the pages. It would require properly investigating the exact nature of all of the characters that have the ability listed during the revision, and I still consider it quite practical to list it compared to the alternative.

Can you show that then? That's just a call for laziness and inaccuracy; which was already answered in the OP to begin with.

 

[Armorchompy]

Can you show any example of that? I checked myself, and to me you just try to put a hypothetical scenario.

Sure, a character I was working on has "Toon Force (Can get flattened completely, seemingly surviving)". Now this would be replaced with, and arguably should already be, sandbox ain't finished after all, Elasticity. So, if you were to go through and edit all 606 pages, you'd have to check every one like this, and add Elasticity instead of Toon Force. Good job, now check 605 more.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Sure, a character I was working on has "Toon Force (Can get flattened completely, seemingly surviving)". Now this would be replaced with, and arguably should already be, sandbox ain't finished after all, Elasticity. So, if you were to go through and edit all 606 pages, you'd have to check every one like this, and add Elasticity instead of Toon Force. Good job, now check 605 more.

So it's not one of those currently on the wiki? Don't see why it should be concerned then.

Also I already explained that 606 is nothing even manually. Infinite speed checking literaly was at least three time bigger. And you can cut the number by nearly 100 because of many characters just sharing the exact same feat (Kirby for instance)

Besides, what you say is already in use for those with this exact kind of feat. They have Elasticity listed for it.

There's obviously 1/2 exceptions, but you can trust me on that one: they barely reach the two digits.
And even then those are more a problem of how the feat was evaluated than Toon Force (it's not even listed as "just" Toon Force but as smth else too in most cases); and some are against established standard (like out-of-screen regen).

 

[Jibz]

You could bang that all out rather easily and with a chill timeframe in 1-2 months. Rome wasn't built in a day, so i dont really see why thats a huge issue. (And thats assuming you'd need to check all 605 which you really dont as a bot will take care of alot of it)

 

[QuasiYuri]

You could bang that all out rather easily and with a chill timeframe in 1-2 months. Rome wasn't built in a day, so i dont really see why thats a huge issue. (And thats assuming you'd need to check all 605 which you really dont as a bot will take care of alot of it)

This too yeah.
Even if you took 1 entire month, it would mean 20 pages a day. Even a week wouldn't be that much if you got 1 hour to spare or whatev.

 

[Jibz]

it would mean 20 pages a day.

Split that job between two people and its 10 a day. Split it between 4 and its 5 a day for each. Finding 4 dedicated members of this wiki who'd go out of their way to spend like 20 minutes maximum to help the wiki doesn't seem impossible. Hell I wouldn't mind being 1 of the four who would do so.

 

[Armorchompy]

So it's not one of those currently on the wiki? Don't see why it should be concerned then.

It's an example, brother, it would have been in two more weeks or whenever I can get some poor sap to approve the calc, don't go splitting hairs.

SPEAKING OF WHICH ANY CALC MEMBERS IN THE CHAT YES I AM THAT SHAMELESS

And even then those are more a problem of how the feat was evaluated than Toon Force (it's not even listed as "just" Toon Force but as smth else too in most cases); and some are against established standard (like out-of-screen regen).

So like, what? You still gotta check all of them and double check with the fanbase on various occasions.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Armorchompy/Sonic_Blast_Man_-_List_of_Feats
Regardless, I think the discussion on whether deleting it is feasible should be left to after the discussion on whether it should be deleted. Personally I think it's a useful short-hand for things.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you show that then? That's just a call for laziness and inaccuracy; which was already answered in the OP to begin with.

I do not have the time to properly investigate so many pages, and the point is that you don't have the time to properly research if all the abilities are included for all of the 606 characters, or even if you have, it is much better spent on more constructive tasks here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's an example, brother, it would have been in two more weeks or whenever I can get some poor sap to approve the calc, don't go splitting hairs.

SPEAKING OF WHICH ANY CALC MEMBERS IN THE CHAT YES I AM THAT SHAMELESS

I made the point that it isn't on the wiki because I obviously checked them prior to the thread. Can't half-do things after all.

So like, what? You still gotta check all of them and double check with the fanbase on various occasions.

I most likely would have to, yes. Although I do have the advantage of surprisingly knowing nearly all the verses featured.

Regardless, I think the discussion on whether deleting it is feasible should be left to after the discussion on whether it should be deleted. Personally I think it's a useful short-hand for things.

The discussion of whether it should be deleted seems to be leaning on the yes side as far as I've seen. Also I honestly think one just need to check ~30 profiles or so to see why it is a bad thing which literaly is either meaningless or given randomly.

I do not have the time to properly investigate so many pages, and the point is that you don't have the time to properly research if all the abilities are included for all of the 606 characters, or even if you have, it is much better spent on more constructive tasks here.

I didn't said you had to do it.
However I think I more often than not have shown that being accurate on a large amount of profiles isn't a problem.

And how can one call making things accurate not constructive? I'm constructive on what I think needs to be adressed because no one will.

I find revisions about how VS threads will go or the addition of verse with JungEinstein Cardinal^7~2 meaningless and prone to bias, yet I won't prevent people from doing them by saying there's "more constructive stuff to do". If moving a pebble is trouble, then moving a mountain isn't even worth trying.

 

[Dereck03]

I don't think apologizing and being ironic at same time is the best way to do it, but it doesn't matter, I won't keep commenting because this is a Staff thread bye.

 

[Bobsican]

It's all in the past, so I can forgive still.

Anyways, I still heavily agree with QuasiYuri in that Toon Force is overall detrimentally useless to have on the site, and that the work required to remove it is indeed more than manageable than past site-wide changes.

 

[Propellus]

Meh, I still disagree with this, deleting this completely and not replacing anything just isn't gonna do it for me

 

[QuasiYuri]

Meh, I still disagree with this, deleting this completely and not replacing anything just isn't gonna do it for me

It's already replaced through the fact that each feat is already mentionned with the associated ability. And the few that aren't will have the according abilities.

Both are explained in the OP already. So the reason you have doesn't really exist tbh.

 

[Eficiente]

I get the idea, but we can simply just rewrite the page a bit to fix the isssues. It could start like this:

"Toon Force is not a superpower, but a trope [explain]. For the purpose of this wiki, Toon Force can be given to profiles who have other, actual abilities whose use can be associated with Toon Force, but the latter is still not a superpower. This can particularly come in handy if one were to separate natural, serious abilities a character may have from random, more inconsistent & all over the place abilities that come from Toon Force (See for example Timmy Turner's profile), or when the abilities a character has that "come from Toon Force" are not worth writing as their own powers (If for example a character has minor Reality Warping)"

This being a very rough example.