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Too late ~ Kessler vs Sans

The_Wright_Way

The_Wright_Way

VS Battles
Retired
15,436
7,856
Sans remembered the day perfectly. It was a nice, blue day in Empire City. Everything had begun to settle down perfectly after humans and monsters accepted each other again. Everything was looking up, until the Blast happened. Papyrus had been in the epicenter. Sans remembered teleporting and running through a crowd of screaming people and safety workers, only to find the single, dust covered scarf that remained of his brother. The city went to hell after that, Reapers doing as they pleased, Dustman going on rampages, and that one maniac with blood red lightning making everything worse and Sans didn't do a thing. It would all be reset, everything would go back to nornal as soon as the kid had his fun. It didn't happen. Sans had finally reached his breaking point when the second Ray Sphere went off. At that point, it sunk in that a reset wasn't going to make things better, and he couldn't afford not to care any more. He had to stop the man who started this and with just a little dugging, he managed to find out who.

~

Kessler looked out at the barren wasteland Empire City had become. A horrible and tragic waste of life, but ultimately a necessary sacrifice for what was to come. The Ray Sphere had gone off again, Cole would be waiting for him at Ground Zero, but there was something Kessler would need to take care of first. He had noticed a figure in the background, an powerful observer, someone like him who wouldn't act until worst came to worst. And it seems his braking point had arrived. He heard foot falls on the rooftop behind him and turned to face the skeleton. "I know your type." Sans started. "Save it." Kessler snarled out. "This is where you go into a long spiel about me being the kind of guy who's never satisfied right? Well I know you're type too." Kessler's eyes were burning with hatred, both at the man in front of him and himself. "The Apocalypse comes knocking on your door and you just run and hide, expecting it to just get better and get pissed when it doesn't. You could've done any number of things to stop me and the chaos that I brought to this city and didn't and only now that you've lost everything do you even bother." Kessler gestured behind him. "Look around you. There's nothing to save now. If you had done something sooner some of this city would still be standing. You could've stopped Cole's rise to power, beaten off the Dustmen and Reapers, but you didn't. You're the worst kind of man, not a monster like I am now, but a coward like I used to be."

Sans stood silent for a minute before commenting. "Wow, that was oddly personal, but I can't help that feel like you can't give me crap when you started this mess in the first place." Kessler nodded. "I used to tell myself something like that once, but it doesn't matter now. You've lost everything and so have I. There's nothing left for either of us except the end." Sans' eyes vanushed and several Gaster Blaster appeared. "Than let's send you to yours."

~

Fight starts at 10 meters distance.

Kessler
He sacrificed so much, just to save the future.

vs.
Undertale sans fanart by okwang-d9rov1b
Sans
 
I think this depends on if Kessler can take Sans initial attack. He can obviously one shot but he has no resistance to Sans' aggressive and powerful soul manipulation, a type which surpasses normal soul manip. If he can't deal with it Sans dunks on him in the first move. If he can, I reckon he takes this via sheer versatility and the fact he can definitely outlast Sans

But i don't think he clan survive that initial first move so I'm going with Sans
 
Okay, just wanna point out that monsters in the Undertale unviverse are actually very weak compared to normal humans, and Sans is no exception. You literally play as an average little boy/girl who can kill monsters through sheer willpower and determination. The humans have a base advantage over monsters in undertale simply due to the power of their souls.

Now when we consider the fact that Kessler FAR surprasses a normal human, that pretty much turns this fight into a stomp, with Sans dying rather quickly.

Because Sans is so fragile, Kessler needs to only land one hit, which due to his speed and electric powers, he should have no problem one-shotting Sans before the fight even begins.

Kessler wins, plain and simple.
 
that only means humans in Undertale verse are much stronger than humans in the real world, especially since monsters like Undyne have feats putting her and other monsters above normal human.

Also the fact that Frisk is a child who can control time and fuse his/her soul back together already makes it clear he/she isn't a "average little boy/girl".
 
@Andytrenom

While the game alludes to the existence of powerful humans, there is nothing stating Frisk is among them. Frisk has not been shown to possess any kind of magical powers like the powerful wizards that were mentioned.

Also the ability to "fuse one's soul back together" only raises needless questions. If we consider the possibility of souls existing in real life, how would one even spearate it in the first place? A soul, by definition, is a metaphysical entity. That being said, it is immortal in a sense, as it transcends physical law.

Personally I view the shattering of the soul to simply be a metaphor of breaking one's will. It simply makes no sense to say that a soul can be physically "shattered."

And since monsters in Undertale seem to deal damage to the soul directly as opposed to sheer physical damage, it would not be unreasonable to say that literally any human with a strong enough will, or determination if you will, could succeed as Frisk did, regardless of physical prowess or special abilities. That's pretty much the whole point of Frisk being a mere child--to show that the power of the soul is more important than earth-shattering magic or physical force.
 
@Greg Frisk doesn't have to be on the level of the wizards for the statement of him "being an average child" to be false. What average child is able to turn back time itself back after his death?

And yeah i guess since souls don't necessarily exist in reality, it can't really be used as a point of comparision between UT humans and real humans.

Either way, humans being stronger than monsters in the UT isn't proof of the monsters being below average human level, because monsters have feats above that such as Undyne cleaving a bridge in two, easily destroying a table in one hit and shaking her entire house with a stomp and Unnamed monsters surviving heat capable of vaporizing a cup of water cup included.

more importantly, it wouldn't even matter if Sans was really this weak. Sans fights through durability negating soul destruction and in this site has been put up against characters thousands to millions of times stronger than him before. Because brute strength alone cannot give you a victory against Sans or against most haxxed characters.
 
@Andytrenom

Okay, in regards to the "turn back time thing", it seems you're simply referring to the fact that you can retry after death from your previous save point in the game, which if that's the case then pretty much every video game character ever also gets this ability, which is ridicuous.

Unless it's explicilitly stated in the game's lore, you can't just say a character has time manipulation just because you can retry in a game after death.

As for your durability argument, we must first consider if the world Frisk fell into even has the same physics as the overworld. In the monster world, you have things like ghosts and floating dogs that can absorb objects and clip through walls. That being said, the world tends to have a lot of metaphysical aspects to it that are merely portrayed in a physical sense.

Also Sans doesn't really seem to negate durability. If I recall, your character has 99HP when fighting him and thus it takes 99 hits from Sans' attacks to even kill you because he only deals 1 damage. The reason your DEF is useless is because 1 is the minimum amount of damage that can be dealt in the game, so essentially Sans just min-maxed by having an attack power of 1 that's offset by high speed and frequency. Again though, someone with a strong enough soul could just tank all of Sans' hits until he tires out. But in the case of Kessler, he could literally just fire an undogeable attack at Sans and end the fight at any time. Lightning and other such powers are much, MUCH faster than attacking with a knife like Frisk/Charra does. Sans would have no way of dodging it. Also Kessler wouldn't be bound to the simple turn-based system that Undertale has.

There's simply too much speculation required when considering the properties of charaters from a game with very abstract physics and not very much lore to go off. Thus, the benefit of the doubt should go to Kessler since we have much more to go off of in his case.
 
Undertale is like one of premier examples of a save and load system being canon to the game's setting.
 
@Kaltias

Then that just convuloutes everything because referring to "SAVE" and "LOAD" breaks the 4th wall. How are you supposed to take a fight seriously when one source breaks the 4th wall while the other doesn't?

Also where is this fight even happening? In the Undertale universe or the Infamous universe? If it's the latter then saving and loading would be in Kessler's favor, who by the way has ACTUAL time manipulation powers.
 
Anyway Greg, since you're new here i'll try to explain the best I can.

We have profiles for the characters here (For example Frisk). What's on the profiles cannot be disagreed with in vs threads. As you can see from said profile, Frisk is not 10-C, which is the level of a normal child.

If you disagree with what's on the profiles, you can go here, make a thread, and if most people agree with you the page can be edited. That's how things work here
 
Also, SAVE and LOAD being meta doesn't change anything as far as the wiki is concerned, it simply means that Frisk's time manipulation has a fancy name
 
SAVE and LOAD isn't actually a fourth wall break. It was a time manipulation ability that was discovered by Flowey and named so because of its similarity to saving and loading in a game.

It fulfills the same function as a game mechanic but it itself is just a power possessed by a character. Imagine there is a character with intangibility which is activated when you take a hit, this will serve the same function as invincibility frames but won't be a fourth wall break. It will just be the character having intangibility.
 
Kaltias said:
Anyway Greg, since you're new here i'll try to explain the best I can.
We have profiles for the characters here (For example Frisk). What's on the profiles cannot be disagreed with in vs threads. As you can see from said profile, Frisk is not 10-C, which is the level of a normal child.

If you disagree with what's on the profiles, you can go here, make a thread, and if most people agree with you the page can be edited. That's how things work here
Click to expand...
I may be new here but I have enough sense to point out blatant contradictions and inconsistancies. For example, Frisk is a 2-dimensional character and therefore should be in tier 11-A: Plane level

Certaintly nowhere near 2-C.

Sure I can protest on that page but with the amount of Undertale fanboys I doubt I'd be able to change anything. At the end of the day here, a character's IRL popularity determines how strong they are, more so than being logical and consistent. This is one of the flaws of having a democratic system when it comes to page editing here.
 
Andytrenom said:
Greg4581 said:
Frisk is a 2-dimensional character and therefore should be in tier 11-A: Plane level
Click to expand...
Dude what?
Click to expand...
At any given point in the game, Frisk is always limited to 2 degrees of motion on a single plane. So unless there's some kind of special rule that excepts him, he's 2D.

You can't just cherry pick things you like while ignoring things you don't.
 
Dude, that's because it's a video game animated that way.

Are books with no images the weakest verses in fiction because you can't see the characters in your opinion?
 
Kaltias said:
Dude, that's because it's a video game animated that way.
Are books with no images the weakest verses in fiction because you can't see the characters in your opinion?
Click to expand...
You can say that it's just the way the game is animated, but if that's the case then why isn't Frisk able to dodge bullets along the z-axis? This could be easily conveyed through animation by having his sprite grow larger or smaller. However he's unable to dodge in 3 dimensions and is thus limited by game. So the fact that Kessler can dodge in 3 dimensions while Undertale characters can only dodge in 2 dimensions, that's just another reason why this fight is silly.
 
Because Toby has animated the game that way?

Do you think that every Mortal Kombat character can only fight in 2-D?

Also the fact that you argue this while arguing that SAVE and LOAD is a 4th wall break heavily confuses me
 
Kaltias said:
Because Toby has animated the game that way?
Do you think that every Mortal Kombat character can only fight in 2-D?

Also the fact that you argue this while arguing that SAVE and LOAD is a 4th wall break heavily confuses me
Click to expand...
At least the lore of Mortal Kombat goes far beyond the game itself, so no it's not confined to 2D, especially since there is still virtual depth but the characters are merely choosing to fight in 2 dimensions.

Also that's exactly my point with the save and load. If you're going to consider a game function as a canon ability then what's to stop me from saying the game's 2D representation is also canon?
 
And the lore of UT goes beyond the pure gameplay as well, so stop cherry picking.

Because save and load is actually stated to exist? Also Frisk moves in three dimensions across the map you know.
 
Because it isn't a game function that we randomly picked out and went "let's just say this is canon"? it has actually been referenced as a real ability characters like Frisk and Flowey possessed and Flowey's entire backstory revolves around using time manipulation to live out every experience in the the underground over and over again.

When has the 2-D movement being referenced as a canonical part of the lore?
 
TheArsenal1212 said:
But it actually is canon. Hell Flowey even says this all during their fight
IMG 2151
https://youtu.be/pLTHWT9pZso
Click to expand...
First of all, here's my problem with using pure dialog as a determining factor: Let's say a character states they're the strongest in the universe yet the empircal evidence we see of them in their respective universe suggests otherwise. What are you supposed to go by then? It makes more sense to gather empirical data based on visuals and mechanics rather than relying on simple dialog by certain characters.

In this instance, are we to beleive Flowy is anything more than a lower lifeform who just discovered my computer's ability to fetch and write data within a limited environment? The fact of the matter is this IS a 4th wall break, and that means their entire universe is simply a program within my computer, and that Flowy is aware of this. And if that's the case then I, an "average human" am more powerful than all the beings in the Undertale universe simply because I can manipulate their universe using tools on my computer. This is why they should all be in the lower-dimensional tier, because breaking the 4th wall has dire consequences when pitting one against another from another work of fiction.
 
Except that Flowey does blatantly rewind time during his boss fight?

And no, 4th wall breaks don't mean anything. It's just the characters acknowledging the fact that they aren't real.

That doesn't make them weaker than everyone else in fiction because fictional characters aren't real by default (duh).
 
TheArsenal1212 said:
I think this depends on if Kessler can take Sans initial attack. He can obviously one shot but he has no resistance to Sans' aggressive and powerful soul manipulation, a type which surpasses normal soul manip. If he can't deal with it Sans dunks on him in the first move. If he can, I reckon he takes this via sheer versatility and the fact he can definitely outlast Sans

But i don't think he clan survive that initial first move so I'm going with Sans
Click to expand...
From what I recall Sans first move is TK into wall and Kessler doesn't shy from using TK himself to counter although I'm not 100% sure which one actually has higher lifting strength

Also also, Kesslers Shock Shield around his body will protect him from the bones correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Yeah multiple times during the Frisk vs Flowey fight, Flowey reloads a save file messing with Frisk's position in the fight multiple times to make them more susceptible to attacks

They state the power, they then proceed to show off that power multiple times, its canon
 
@Schnee it's a teleport into a wall, then gasser blasts. Kessler not having a great resistance to soul attacks means that will hurt him greatly.... unless the forcefields help Hahahaha then I'd say those help him outlast Sans
 
In this case Kessler uses his own TK and completely overpowers it due to his vastly superior lifting strength

Anything else?
 
Schnee One said:
Edwardtruong2006 said:
So does Kessler have

-AOE

-Paralysis

-Any attack that's a guaranteed hit
Click to expand...
Quite a few but they're too close.
Yes but contact based

No
Click to expand...
Kessler's lighting grab is a guaranteed hit. The one he uses on Cole when he strays too far from the arena.
 
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