- 243
- 86
I don't even know what I'm arguing for anymore. This thread is far to confusing for someone who hasn't read the series. Unfollowing.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Tokyo Revengers verse upgrade
- Thread starter MorrisHatesYou
- Start date
- Status
- 18,393
- 14,323
I am in agreement with Dalesean
- 9,651
- 8,710
You can put me on Option 3, this feat seems like a perfect example of what we were trying to avoid by making that rule about evading punches.
- 244
- 106
also add me to point n3. you didn't include me
- 359
- 129
Add me to option 1 or 3.
Last edited:
- 2,548
- 2,146
Put me down for Option 3 as well since this is in violation of the Evading Punches rule.
I do think the math checks out mathematically & contextually (in terms of confining to using what’s shown within the scene to calc) from everything I read in the discussion. Altho I did not mention either specifically in my eval in the blog so mb.
But, yeah. If both characters are relative to one another, then the results this calculation got don’t make sense.
- 17,274
- 27,077
Well I think with this many disagreements from staff and the contentious in the blog that this has been settled and can be closed as the feat has been ruled as an outlier and to be in violation of our standards
- 121
- 58
I vote for option 3.
MorrisHatesYou
Username Only- 698
- 384
- Thread starter
- #169
Then we should also scale the average delinquent to Draken's level.
- 17,274
- 27,077
My brother in christ the verse is still subsonic+ very much FTE just like its displayed narratively, its also displayed Guns are a threat and considered "dangerous weapons" for these characters who are subsonic+. If anything its a perfect representation as you can still be FTE but still <<< actual bullets.
Like having high values is cool if it ain't narrative breaking and when you start saying to me a verse that consistently displays guns as being dangerous and having killed many major characters and try telling me that the mid-tiers are as fast as and can react to sniper rounds casually with the high tiers and god tier being able to casually react to and fight at speeds on par with rail guns which usually fire at velocities of mach 5~7 which means they can cover easily from 1.7~2.5km in just single second its just so blatantly not okay.
Hell Chifuyu if anyone ain't suicidal like you claimed draken was before so why would he sit still tied to a chair when he apparently according to this calc would outspeed the 9mm round that would be going around 350~450m/s when he's supposedly 3.7x to 2.89x as fast as the round being fired let alone the speed at which the barrel has to chamber at, mind you he performs this supersonic+ feat while tied down so no reason why he can't just replicate it here. Unless its actually just narrative breaking and the creator doesn't actually believe these characters are bullet timers as that would break the established narrative i.e be an outlier.
Last edited:
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,554
Exactly that. They are calcs not taking into account the portrayal of the verse and that's why there is already a rule pointing them out because such cases have also happened in the past.
- 875
- 308
Because they can one-shot them, the speed isn't a problem.
- 18,393
- 14,323
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
MorrisHatesYou
Username Only- 698
- 384
- Thread starter
- #174
I have explained the issue with weapons with instant lethality being exaggerated (like guns and swords) bazillion times, but no one address them.
- 17,274
- 27,077
You've said that in many threads yet you never not once when asked provided a scan or a statement from WoG and the manga itself that said the speed of bullets isn't what these characters consider drangerous. Hell the AP of them wouldn't matter when everyone has time to react to them from several meters away or hell even if they're tied down in chairs they can still supersonic+ feats so anyone can just not die if they wanted to by your logic.
But anywho yeah even now I've yet to see this and you keep saying it so I'll ask again in this thread send the scan and WoG that says this. One scan that directly says this exact thing will change the course of the entire verse but at this point I'm sure if it existed it would've actually been presented long ago.
- 18,393
- 14,323
I believe his reference wasn't about speed, but rather the peril they pose, which can't be easily neutralized by a simple overreaction employing your linear logic.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,554
The thing is noone has stated they can even outspeed guns. A single scan of it or someone saying even if a gun goes off I can still avoid it or sth like that would help. That needs to happen without resorting to feats though. Either a character avoiding bullets one on one or someone stating I don't fear bullets because I can avoid them.
- 17,274
- 27,077
That's the only and only singular most important part if they specifically say bullets aren't a problem for their speed directly then you have some precedence.
So if said scan or wog statement exist provide it and you don't provide it and just try and make a random argument without providing it then we have our answer as its clear as day the statement doesn't actually exist, so you're one lying and two just ignoring your verses narrative context for higher ratings and shamelessly are ignoring outliers for the sake of having a higher number
Last edited:
- 875
- 308
Characters freak out whenever they see a sword as well, even if wielded by someone that they can blitz.
- 17,274
- 27,077
Idc send the scan, what did I just say.
I don't need arguments I need the scan you're talking about else you're just conceding since it clearly doesn't exist
- 875
- 308
And where is the scan where they say that guns are too fast for them?
- 17,274
- 27,077
I'm not required to send it since the burden of proof falls to you for making the claim and basing the verse being supersonic-hypersonic off of it.
Hell the narrative does that job for me, but as said burden of proof falls to you. So just send the scan that is unless you were lying about it all of these threads but surely not and that's why I'm giving you a chance to find it and shut me up.
- 243
- 86
Do you have scans showing there scared of guns for their speed ? If so this thread should be closed and this shouldn't be a debate.
- 875
- 308
Feats that end up being faster than bullets are the proof.
- 1,371
- 555
I'm not even sure that you read the manga or not at this point. Only major characters that got shot and killed were always in an handicapped situation.
Izana got shot when he was trying to save Kakucho who couldn't move out the way because he was injured. The only character who is probably slower than a gun here is Kisaki who isn't a fighter. Draken's situation isn't any different as his only goal was to save Takemichi and Senju. The goons even ran away when they saw Draken even though they could shoot him as Draken should be slower than a bullet in your opinion. This literally proves that Draken is faster than bullets. You could argue that Senju was implified to be slower than bullets but that's simply not the case. Takemichi was trying to save Senju as he got a vision before this scene where Senju got shot and died trying to save him similar to Izana's situation. Takemichi was trying to save Senju too so that's why Senju couldn't do anything in that scene.
- 17,274
- 27,077
There's literally a scan of them calling guns dangerous weapons and narratively major characters from high tiers and below have been killed by guns on screen several times instead of just blitzing the bullets as they claim so I'd say that's evidence enough considering without using calcs the best feats on screen usually come to be the normal FTE shit which is just subsonic-subsonic+
- 243
- 86
I am inclined to agree with you here but the supporters seem to have a good point. I will start the manga now and see if I can complete it soon so I can have a say in this.
- 875
- 308
Prove that it refers to the speed. You are assuming that just because they are dangerous, which could be just because they are allergic to piercing damage, the characters are inferior in every way.
- 17,274
- 27,077
Nope that's just hidden calc stacking as the precedent doesn't exist otherwise so you're using a calculated feat to circularly justify a higher rating
I'm not even gonna read all this just send the scan since you're so well read in the verse as you say because I clearly haven't ready any of it
- 875
- 308
If there is a calculation that says they are faster than bullets then I don't need to prove that they are, unless you argue that the calculation is an outlier.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,554
Send the scans you are talking about where guns aren't a problem.
Feats that aren't due to crossings 6 km in 2 seconds or watching a bullet and avoiding it don't count because those are the only hardcore demonstrations for speed that an author would use. Calcs that require time and reaction speed and pixel scaling and other stuff are done by the debating community to help make more accurate results but they weren't the author's intent if they constantly wanted a gun to be faster than anyone else which is why a scan to disprove that is requested.
MorrisHatesYou
Username Only- 698
- 384
- Thread starter
- #192
Ok, since we all know Tokyo Revengers, I'll not be bringing up scans (takes too much time). Since you'll all get what I meant.
The degree of how danger weapons with instant lethality are exaggerated in Tokyo revengers.
From the Angry vs Mucho fight, we can know that Angry is a LOT faster than Mucho, but once Mucho brought up a knife Angry was suddenly overwhelmed, everyone was surprised even after seeing the speed gap, it got to the point where Kakucho had to interfere in the fight.
Does this mean angry is only knife level now?
Sanzu is among mid tier characters, he's relative to Ran. Ran with a weapon is still mid tier, far slower than Mucho whom Angry blitzed, whom Kakucho is a lot superior to.
But once Sanzu was with Katana. He can defeat Kakucho even though Kakucho is bazillion times faster than Sanzu.
The key idea here is that characters are undoubtedly much faster than their respective weapons. However, their vulnerability to these weapons doesn't stem from weapon speed surpassing their own, but rather due to the weapons' instant lethality. I find it perplexing that this reasoning cannot be extended to the matter of guns.
The degree of how danger weapons with instant lethality are exaggerated in Tokyo revengers.
From the Angry vs Mucho fight, we can know that Angry is a LOT faster than Mucho, but once Mucho brought up a knife Angry was suddenly overwhelmed, everyone was surprised even after seeing the speed gap, it got to the point where Kakucho had to interfere in the fight.
Does this mean angry is only knife level now?
Sanzu is among mid tier characters, he's relative to Ran. Ran with a weapon is still mid tier, far slower than Mucho whom Angry blitzed, whom Kakucho is a lot superior to.
But once Sanzu was with Katana. He can defeat Kakucho even though Kakucho is bazillion times faster than Sanzu.
The key idea here is that characters are undoubtedly much faster than their respective weapons. However, their vulnerability to these weapons doesn't stem from weapon speed surpassing their own, but rather due to the weapons' instant lethality. I find it perplexing that this reasoning cannot be extended to the matter of guns.
- 17,274
- 27,077
Again burden of proof falls to you my guy, literally just send the scan be it WoG or straight from the manga any generic "I'm too fast for Guns to work against me" or a "I can percieve bullets in motion so its no use" like literally just provide the scan
You in fact actually do if the verse otherwise has no feats on that level or if the character isn't the sole god tier or exception for some reason which you would actually in fact still need to show
- 1,162
- 416
Since speed isn't a problem I don't see why they can't just simply dodge the bullets, assuming they are 1300 m/s they should be able to dodge a bullet when it's 0,5 m from their face and still have problems when they bullets are shot from several meters when all it's needed to dodge them is a low end supersonic reaction.
I never mentioned this but I guess I will at this point, in Tenjiku arc when Tenjiku lost and they could reach Kisaki Hanma saved him escaping with a motorbike and Draken in order to follow him used a motorbike, if the verse has a supersonic+ MS as shown by the calc I really don't understand why Draken or Mikey just didn't teleported in front of the motorbike since they should be able to se it as frozen in time + Mikey every time he has to go where his gang is to fight (Moebius and black dragon arc) he just doesn't run there since he only needs some seconds and he will just save the situation, still he waits for them to fight, Ik what PIS is and well motorbikes and guns are consistent within the verse from the start to the end of the plot, a PIS is when a single moment in the narrative contradicts the rest... but when the narrative, from the first to the last arc, is consistent and the only things which is contradicted are your calcs then the calcs are an outlier, I hope you don't think calcs (which are basically fanmade) are superior to the whole narrative.
If the verse was legitimately supersonic or higher I don't see why the author never showed sonic booms or just didn't make them dodge a bullet or run a km is some seconds.
In less words the characters can't outrun motorbikes (probably only Angry and Izana can) and can't dodge bullets so their MS and reaction are limited and the AS of the verse is nowhere higher than the reaction of the verse since people can react to the fastest attacks of the verse and still have problems with guns, it is just that, tomorrow you can bring a 20000000000000000000 m/s calc it will just contradicts the consistence of the plot and there is nothing you can do about it.
If calcs are gonna come up I'll probably make a thread in order to set an outlier for the speed of the verse since their limits in speed are clearly shown and I bet you will just try to prove with your interpretation or with calcs what is blatantly shown in the manga, the characters are slow, they display an inhuman strength and not an inhuman speed.
The only way I see to have a supersonic+ speed is to downgrade the intelligence of the verse, your choice.
I never mentioned this but I guess I will at this point, in Tenjiku arc when Tenjiku lost and they could reach Kisaki Hanma saved him escaping with a motorbike and Draken in order to follow him used a motorbike, if the verse has a supersonic+ MS as shown by the calc I really don't understand why Draken or Mikey just didn't teleported in front of the motorbike since they should be able to se it as frozen in time + Mikey every time he has to go where his gang is to fight (Moebius and black dragon arc) he just doesn't run there since he only needs some seconds and he will just save the situation, still he waits for them to fight, Ik what PIS is and well motorbikes and guns are consistent within the verse from the start to the end of the plot, a PIS is when a single moment in the narrative contradicts the rest... but when the narrative, from the first to the last arc, is consistent and the only things which is contradicted are your calcs then the calcs are an outlier, I hope you don't think calcs (which are basically fanmade) are superior to the whole narrative.
If the verse was legitimately supersonic or higher I don't see why the author never showed sonic booms or just didn't make them dodge a bullet or run a km is some seconds.
In less words the characters can't outrun motorbikes (probably only Angry and Izana can) and can't dodge bullets so their MS and reaction are limited and the AS of the verse is nowhere higher than the reaction of the verse since people can react to the fastest attacks of the verse and still have problems with guns, it is just that, tomorrow you can bring a 20000000000000000000 m/s calc it will just contradicts the consistence of the plot and there is nothing you can do about it.
If calcs are gonna come up I'll probably make a thread in order to set an outlier for the speed of the verse since their limits in speed are clearly shown and I bet you will just try to prove with your interpretation or with calcs what is blatantly shown in the manga, the characters are slow, they display an inhuman strength and not an inhuman speed.
The only way I see to have a supersonic+ speed is to downgrade the intelligence of the verse, your choice.
- 17,274
- 27,077
It takes too much time!? Bro yall have said the scan has existed for months now and never once provided it , simply just provide the scan. When will it not take too long to narratively prove with the scan yall are blessing like the second coming of jesus that these guys are in fact bullet timers.
Yall are the big experts on the verse I'd shudder to think yall wouldn't have the most importsnt scan on hand like that for something yall know has been contentious for the verse
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,554
Melee weapons have no given speed so I don't exactly understand the reason for bringing them up? A gun has standard speed and ap. A sword has the speed of the wielder.
- 875
- 308
And the point is that even when the wielder is so slow that they can be blitzed characters are still afraid.
- 1,371
- 555
A few goons (one of them carrying a gun) ran away when they saw Draken when they could just shot him through you guys opinions. Anyone who scale to or above Draken in speed (so mid and high tiers) should be above gun speed.
MorrisHatesYou
Username Only- 698
- 384
- Thread starter
- #199
The scan is about angry being overwhelmed by knife, Kakucho needing to interfere, and Sanzu defeating Kakucho even though Kakucho is bazillion times faster.
This is something that is already known and I don't bring up because we all pretty much know about Tokyo revengers here
- 17,274
- 27,077
Thats sounds great and all but the scan im referring to is the one about bullets speed not being a problem I don't want one about a varying knife swing, so please send the gun scan
- Status
