Big fat Mikey crt

[LostLightt]

Mikey ability additions:

I'm in the UK so I can't see these scans, but I know they entail what I've typed since I've read the manga. So if ur gonna debate a specific scan, link it on ts site: https://postimages.org/

Resistance to Precognition: Despite big fat Takemichi having Precognition, Mikey was able to go from being unable to hit him to hitting him consistently and winning the fight.



Resistance to Enhanced Vision: Can easily blitz and hit big fat Hanma who has great kinetic vision.



Resistance to Analytical Prediction: Went from having all of his moves predicted by Izana to beating and outskilling him without any difficulty. Can easily blitz and hit Hanma who has great kinetic vision. Is vastly superior to Baji in skill whom is capable of killing people with expert boxing and analytical prediction skill.

https://imgur.com/a/GIrY8eO
https://imgur.com/a/di-mikey-vs-hanma-WTZfhCa
https://imgur.com/a/w7Ht83W
https://imgur.com/gallery/kid-mikey-genius-martial-artist-rk4XkCU
https://imgur.com/a/iUbBqqC
https://imgur.com/a/GLx8Gjp

Izana's "undefeatable senses" implies sight and hearing. Two of the 5 senses that make the most sense for the fight. Izana can hear and see Mikey's moves, despite this, he's unable to land a hit despite their stats not being far apart.

Instinctive Action: When in DI, doesn't know left from right or up from down. But is still able to fight at the level of god tiers.
https://imgur.com/a/LEecAU3

Limited resistance to paralysis inducement: Kakucho's punches left Chifuyu and Angry unable to move temporarily, yet had no effect on Mikey. Kakucho stated it was as if he was "punching a ghost" when hitting Mikey.

https://imgur.com/a/Hjg7RCV
https://imgur.com/a/Ym0Y3gl

Martial arts additions: Is capable of outskilling every notable delinquent in the verse, including 2 vs 1's on bad footing against expert fighters. Expert boxers, taekwondo users, judo users, capoeira users, and more. Is an expert at disarticulation of bones, paralysis and fights whilst holding back.

Mikey's kick at 4 years old where he unseals a bottle cap is an extraordinary feat. Due to age, the type of bottle cap, and skill. The best 4 year old martial arts feats include hitting small targets with kicks like a paddle, or a balloon. At 4 years old, regular people start to learn how to balance on one foot for a few seconds, Mikey however is able to balance on one leg, kick with one leg, perform acrobatic movements, and kick sealed cider bottle caps clean off, which is a feat beyond what skilled martial artists do, which is kicking a plastic lid off. Even then it's rarley kicked clean off. Therefore, Mikey's precision should be genius level, as well as his martial arts, remember he did ts at 4 and with one leg. As well as the following ability:

Superhuman precision: Angle snap kicked off a cider bottle cap whilst standing on one leg at 4 years old.

https://imgur.com/gallery/kid-mikey-genius-martial-artist-rk4XkCU

The 4 years old and one leg part makes this superhuman.

Superhuman precision: Can seperate bones with kicks/punches.

https://imgur.com/a/J3Xe1KR

Agree:
disagree:
neutral: Agnaa

Random helper commented and he disagrees with a fair amount of it.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Resistance to Analytical Prediction: Went from having all of his moves predicted by Izana to beating and outskilling him without any difficulty. Can easily blitz and hit Hanma who has great kinetic vision. Is vastly superior to Baji in skill whom is capable of killing people with expert boxing and analytical prediction skill.

I have to disagree with this, this scan suggests that Izana's limb were getting tired due to tanking multiple hits from Mikey, therefore not functioning as good as before.

Limited resistance to paralysis inducement: Kakucho's punches left Chifuyu and Angry unable to move temporarily, yet had no effect on Mikey. Kakucho stated it was as if he was "punching a ghost" when hitting Mikey.

This too, Kakucho punches left them unable to move because kakucho outscales them massively.

Instinctive Action: When in DI, doesn't know left from right or up from down. But is still able to fight at the level of god tiers.

Idk how this would qualify as instinctive action .

Resistance to Precognition: Despite big fat Takemichi having Precognition, Mikey was able to go from being unable to hit him to hitting him consistently and winning the fight.

Not sure about this.



I think the rest is fine.

 

[LostLightt]

Yo why am I still receiving emails of replies to my threads

 

[LostLightt]

I have to disagree with this, this scan suggests that due to tanking multiple hits from Mikey, Izana's limb are getting tired, therefore not functioning as good as before.

U shot down one target and left the other 2 standing. To target the Izana point:

Jst cause Izana's limbs are tired doesn't mean his predictive abilities are gone. It's slower combat speed (if u can prove the statement is reliable), not restriction to predictive visualisation.

This too, Kakucho punches left them unable to move because kakucho outscales them massively.

High tiers are massively sup to low tiers but low tiers don't get paralysed when they're punched by high tiers.

Idk how this would qualify as instinctive action .

He cannot percieve up from down and left from right, therefore his actions are instinctive.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Jst cause Izana's limbs are tired doesn't mean his predictive abilities are gone. It's slower combat speed (if u can prove the statement is reliable), not restriction to predictive visualisation.

It doesn't mean they're gone, but it means he got slower which makes it hard for him to block Mikey's attacks as before, it doesn't mean mikey has resistance to analytical prediction, since izana got much slower that at point.

Baji doesn't have analytical prediction

For hanmas case, Mikey is just too fast for him. And hanma doesn't have analytical prediction to begin with.

Resistance to Enhanced Vision: Can easily blitz and hit big fat Hanma who has great kinetic vision.

Forgot this
Like I said, Mikey is just too fast for Hanma, it doesn't necessarily imply resistance to the ability.

High tiers are massively sup to low tiers but low tiers don't get paralysed when they're punched by high tiers.

Fam, this has more to do with stat differences, not abilities necessarily.

 

[Youngwolf-0.1]

Resistance to Precognition: Despite big fat Takemichi having Precognition, Mikey was able to go from being unable to hit him to hitting him consistently and winning the fight.

No, Landing a hit on someone with future sight can be explained by speed, skill, or timing differences, not necessarily bypassing the ability itself. There is no clear evidence that the precognition was still functioning but failed regardless. Because of that, this feat seems better interpreted as combat performance rather than resistance to precognition.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

No, Landing a hit on someone with future sight can be explained by speed, skill, or timing differences, not necessarily bypassing the ability itself. There is no clear evidence that the precognition was still functioning but failed regardless. Because of that, this feat seems better interpreted as combat performance rather than resistance to precognition.

Agreed

 

[LostLightt]

It doesn't mean they're gone, but it means he got slower which makes it hard for him to block Mikey's attacks as before, it doesn't mean mikey has resistance to analytical prediction, since izana got much slower that at point.

Baji doesn't have analytical prediction

For hanmas case, Mikey is just too fast for him. And hanma doesn't have analytical prediction to begin with.



Forgot this
Like I said, Mikey is just too fast for Hanma, it doesn't necessarily imply resistance to the ability.



Fam, this has more to do with stat differences, not abilities necessarily.

I replied to u on discord.

No, Landing a hit on someone with future sight can be explained by speed, skill, or timing differences, not necessarily bypassing the ability itself. There is no clear evidence that the precognition was still functioning but failed regardless. Because of that, this feat seems better interpreted as combat performance rather than resistance to precognition.

Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means.

Mikey resists the idea of precognition via increasing stats per attack. Dunno why it wouldn't be a resistance. If you're outspeeding an ability ur bypassing it

 

[Youngwolf-0.1]

I replied to u on discord.

Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means.

Mikey resists the idea of precognition via increasing stats per attack. Dunno why it wouldn't be a resistance. If you're outspeeding an ability ur bypassing it

Outspeeding someone with precognition does not necessarily mean the ability itself was bypassed. It can simply mean the user was not fast enough to react to what they saw. The ability can still function correctly while the user fails to keep up physically. Resistance usually requires evidence that the ability was ineffective regardless of the user's stats or reactions. In this case, the outcome seems better explained by increasing speed or power during the fight rather than negating the precognition itself.

 

[LostLightt]

Outspeeding someone with precognition does not necessarily mean the ability itself was bypassed. It can simply mean the user was not fast enough to react to what they saw. The ability can still function correctly while the user fails to keep up physically. Resistance usually requires evidence that the ability was ineffective regardless of the user's stats or reactions. In this case, the outcome seems better explained by increasing speed or power during the fight rather than negating the precognition itself.

Ofc the ability still functions, the resistance part is when you aint effected by the ability. If you aint effected by precognition due to speed, ur not going to not have a resistance to it, cause ur resisting it.

hitting someone with a simple massively larger speed is one thing. But increasing your speed to resist the ability (which is what Mikey does, takemichi states his kicks are gettin faster) is a different thing

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Resistance to Precognition: Despite big fat Takemichi having Precognition, Mikey was able to go from being unable to hit him to hitting him consistently and winning the fight.

Takemichi could still anticipate all of Mikey's moves, but he didn’t have enough speed to dodge them all. I don’t see how this can be considered resistence.

Resistance to Enhanced Vision: Can easily blitz and hit big fat Hanma who has great kinetic vision.

I don’t see this as resistance to Enhanced Vision. Moreover, we shouldn’t take that text seriously: it claims that no human can hit Hanma, but Hanma was struck by Draken. It’s also worth noting that he doesn’t fit into any type of Enhanced Vision.

Spoiler: Enhanced Vision

• Enhanced Vision:Can see very clearly from incredible distances. Many different types of eyesight enhancement may occur:
  • Infrared Vision: The ability to see radiation
  • Thermograpic Vision: The ability to see heat
  • Ultraviolet Vision: The ability to see light humans cannot
  • Supercolor Vision: The ability to see in a wider range of color
  • Telescopic vision: The ability to see great distances
  • Microvision: The ability to see very small items
  • Aura Vision: The ability to see hormonal output
  • Chemovision: The ability to see pheromone output
  • Neutral Vision: The ability to see something invisible
  • X-Ray Vision: The ability to see through an object
  • Night Vision: The ability to see without light
  • Panoramic Vision: The ability to see 360 degrees
  • Multiple Vision: The ability to see in two different places at once.
  • Emotion Vision: The ability to see the emotions of others.
  • Atomic Vision: The ability to see the bonds between atoms.
  • Inside Vision: The ability to see the inside beauty of someone.
  • Soul Vision: Ability to see souls, spirits, and ghosts.

Instinctive Action: When in DI, doesn't know left from right or up from down. But is still able to fight at the level of god tiers.

This is Berserk Mode

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yo why am I still receiving emails of replies to my threads

You gotta toggle that in your settings.
Click your pfp -> preferences -> content options -> automatically follow content you create -> and receive email notifications for it -> uncheck the box

 

[DavidTPPM]

Brochacho haunting the wiki even while banned

Mikey ability additions:

I'm in the UK so I can't see these scans, but I know they entail what I've typed since I've read the manga. So if ur gonna debate a specific scan, link it on ts site: https://postimages.org/

Resistance to Precognition: Despite big fat Takemichi having Precognition, Mikey was able to go from being unable to hit him to hitting him consistently and winning the fight.

Not resistance. Countering visions ≠ resisting them, especially when the counter is just "kick faster". He's still getting precogged, Takemitchi just can't actually utilize the precog due to the speed difference.

Resistance to Enhanced Vision: Can easily blitz and hit big fat Hanma who has great kinetic vision.

Why would this even be a resistance? Having "great kinetic vision" is barely even enhanced senses, but blitzing someone with enhanced senses doesn't require you to resist them whatsoever. Especially when you're a god tier in the verse lol.

Resistance to Analytical Prediction: Went from having all of his moves predicted by Izana to beating and outskilling him without any difficulty. Can easily blitz and hit Hanma who has great kinetic vision. Is vastly superior to Baji in skill whom is capable of killing people with expert boxing and analytical prediction skill.

https://imgur.com/a/GIrY8eO
https://imgur.com/a/di-mikey-vs-hanma-WTZfhCa
https://imgur.com/a/w7Ht83W
https://imgur.com/gallery/kid-mikey-genius-martial-artist-rk4XkCU
https://imgur.com/a/iUbBqqC
https://imgur.com/a/GLx8Gjp

Izana's "undefeatable senses" implies sight and hearing. Two of the 5 senses that make the most sense for the fight. Izana can hear and see Mikey's moves, despite this, he's unable to land a hit despite their stats not being far apart.

I already talked about this in a previous CRT that Vzearr tried putting out. Mikey is just blitzing Izana. Nothing about the panels suggests he's relative in stats or that he's somehow moving in an unpredictable way.

Instinctive Action: When in DI, doesn't know left from right or up from down. But is still able to fight at the level of god tiers.
https://imgur.com/a/LEecAU3

Not really IA. Saying someone doesn't "know left from right" just means they're not thinking clearly, it's a common figure of speech.

Nothing about this implies he's moving on pure instinct or anything similar. He's just very mad.

Limited resistance to paralysis inducement: Kakucho's punches left Chifuyu and Angry unable to move temporarily, yet had no effect on Mikey. Kakucho stated it was as if he was "punching a ghost" when hitting Mikey.

https://imgur.com/a/Hjg7RCV
https://imgur.com/a/Ym0Y3gl

No reason for this to be a resistance unless Kakucho is verbally established to have some sort of pressure point based paralysis inducement, and even then it requires Kakucho to be strong enough to actually use it on Mikey.

Not being able to move after getting hit is not something that requires paralysis inducement. Getting the wind blown out of you or even just simply getting hit so hard the damage or pain make moving difficult is extremely common.

I'm pretty sure the random kid that punched 10 year old me in the stomach so hard I couldn't move didn't have any paralysis hax.

Martial arts additions: Is capable of outskilling every notable delinquent in the verse, including 2 vs 1's on bad footing against expert fighters. Expert boxers, taekwondo users, judo users, capoeira users, and more. Is an expert at disarticulation of bones, paralysis and fights whilst holding back.

This would need scans. No point in adding something to a description on the profile if you don't also add scans for it.

Mikey's kick at 4 years old where he unseals a bottle cap is an extraordinary feat. Due to age, the type of bottle cap, and skill. The best 4 year old martial arts feats include hitting small targets with kicks like a paddle, or a balloon. At 4 years old, regular people start to learn how to balance on one foot for a few seconds, Mikey however is able to balance on one leg, kick with one leg, perform acrobatic movements, and kick sealed cider bottle caps clean off, which is a feat beyond what skilled martial artists do, which is kicking a plastic lid off. Even then it's rarley kicked clean off. Therefore, Mikey's precision should be genius level, as well as his martial arts, remember he did ts at 4 and with one leg. As well as the following ability:

Superhuman precision: Angle snap kicked off a cider bottle cap whilst standing on one leg at 4 years old.

The bottle cap feat is already on profile. I guess you can also add superhuman precision in the description but it's kidna pushing the definition of "superhuman" here since kicking a bottle cap sure as hell ain't superhuman precious.

Actually unscrewing it? Maybe. Tho that's more so on the gap of what's physically possible since the bottle would just tip over even with perfect precision unless it's extremely lose.
So ig it's acceptable but very iffy.

The 4 years old and one leg part makes this superhuman.

Uh, not really. The 4 yo part just means he has adult level precision as a kid, not superhuman precision.

Superhuman precision: Can seperate bones with kicks/punches.

https://imgur.com/a/J3Xe1KR

Idk if it's just me but I can't see where in the scan does it talk about "separating bones with kicks/punches".
And why would that even be superhuman precision

 

[Agnaa]

Resistance to Precognition: Despite big fat Takemichi having Precognition, Mikey was able to go from being unable to hit him to hitting him consistently and winning the fight.

Resistance to Enhanced Vision: Can easily blitz and hit big fat Hanma who has great kinetic vision.

Resistance to Analytical Prediction: Went from having all of his moves predicted by Izana to beating and outskilling him without any difficulty. Can easily blitz and hit Hanma who has great kinetic vision. Is vastly superior to Baji in skill whom is capable of killing people with expert boxing and analytical prediction skill.

Not gonna evaluate the rest of this, since it requires going into detail of those scenes and the existing profile.

But on the face of it, these justifications are completely insufficient for resistances.

You can hit someone with precognition/enhanced vision/analytical prediction by moving faster. In order for it to be a resistance, we need a clear indication that those abilities just fail to work, without being due to any issues like speed differences.

 

[Youngwolf-0.1]

Ofc the ability still functions, the resistance part is when you aint effected by the ability. If you aint effected by precognition due to speed, ur not going to not have a resistance to it, cause ur resisting it.

hitting someone with a simple massively larger speed is one thing. But increasing your speed to resist the ability (which is what Mikey does, takemichi states his kicks are gettin faster) is a different thing

Getting faster during a fight does not mean the precognition is being resisted; it just means the user can no longer physically react in time to what they see. The ability can still function correctly, but the opponent is simply too fast to keep up. Resistance would require evidence that the prediction itself became ineffective regardless of speed, not that the target's stats increased. So this seems better explained as speed escalation or adaptation, not resistance to precognition.

 

[LostLightt]

But on the face of it, these justifications are completely insufficient for resistances.

You can hit someone with precognition/enhanced vision/analytical prediction by moving faster. In order for it to be a resistance, we need a clear indication that those abilities just fail to work, without being due to any issues like speed differences.

Ur using the resistance to precognition as the basis for ur debunk and ur argument is contingent on resistances failing to work. Well, theres a few interps here, and ur stance is that hes not resistant cause the ability didn't fail to work? But, the ability for precog fails to work cause Takemichi can no longer react to Mikeys kicks after he amps himself throughout the fight. A speed amp is a clear indication the ability fails to work, u get me?

Mikey negates the effectivness of precog. An example if u want: If I fight someone with dura neg, nd my regeneration speed continuously increases to the point where their attacks no longer produce lasting damage, I have limited resistance to their dura neg. the same logic can be applied to Mikey.

for anpr Izana and Mikey are comp even in their second fight as seen here, so stat differences isn't the reason for Mikey resisting the ability. Mikey also is superior in skill to Baji (it's stated/implied here) and baji can beat ryusei without a large stat difference. Ryusei has strong anpr. Cause iirc the narrative scaling chain there is Baji ~ Ayuma ~ Ryusei with some bs of Baji Ryusei and Chifuyu all being comp to yotsuya kaiden members, making them all relative in stats expect Baji's ap cause some goon Kiyamoro said if he gets hit by Baji's punch it's over for him, but then proceeds to dodge them all.




Hanma and Mikey are comp, they both land hits on eachother. So that's a not a big issue

 

[LostLightt]

Brochacho haunting the wiki even while banned


Not resistance. Countering visions ≠ resisting them, especially when the counter is just "kick faster". He's still getting precogged, Takemitchi just can't actually utilize the precog due to the speed difference.

He's being a good boy and taking a break.

Just cause ur being precogged doesn't mean ur not resisting it. When a person with something like duraneg, attacks you, and you get hit, and then as the fight goes on you're hit until you eventually regenerate to the point where you can no longer be effected. Ur resisting it.

Why would this even be a resistance? Having "great kinetic vision" is barely even enhanced senses, but blitzing someone with enhanced senses doesn't require you to resist them whatsoever. Especially when you're a god tier in the verse lol.

Great kinetic vision is enhanced senses when he cant take a direct hit from anyone. Mikey also is comp to hanma in base so idk what you want me to do

I already talked about this in a previous CRT that Vzearr tried putting out. Mikey is just blitzing Izana. Nothing about the panels suggests he's relative in stats or that he's somehow moving in an unpredictable way.

They're comp even in their second fight:


Ur also saying he's blitzing Izana but that dont make sense when he narrowly dodged a hit.

Not really IA. Saying someone doesn't "know left from right" just means they're not thinking clearly, it's a common figure of speech.

Not knowing left from right and up from down in Mikey's scenario he's likely dead ass cause DI is a supernatural curse that cause people to not think properly, Mikey's DI is an enhanced one from Shinichiro who killed a homeless dude instinctively. He said some bs like "he's dead??" kinda implying he acted without much thought.

No reason for this to be a resistance unless Kakucho is verbally established to have some sort of pressure point based paralysis inducement, and even then it requires Kakucho to be strong enough to actually use it on Mikey.

Not being able to move after getting hit is not something that requires paralysis inducement. Getting the wind blown out of you or even just simply getting hit so hard the damage or pain make moving difficult is extremely common.

I'm pretty sure the random kid that punched 10 year old me in the stomach so hard I couldn't move didn't have any paralysis hax.

Good points.

Paralysis inducement is kinda vague, so, if ur able to completely stop someones movements u qualify for it, which is what Kakucho did. It's also limited.

This would need scans. No point in adding something to a description on the profile if you don't also add scans for it.

Mb.

Idk if it's just me but I can't see where in the scan does it talk about "separating bones with kicks/punches".
And why would that even be superhuman precision

Disarticulation is defined as seperating bones from joints, and no human has ever seperated a bone from a joint without dumb luck unless it's in Jiujutsu or some bs sport like that.

 

[LostLightt]

Takemichi could still anticipate all of Mikey's moves, but he didn’t have enough speed to dodge them all. I don’t see how this can be considered resistence.

I already explained ts

I don’t see this as resistance to Enhanced Vision. Moreover, we shouldn’t take that text seriously: it claims that no human can hit Hanma, but Hanma was struck by Draken. It’s also worth noting that he doesn’t fit into any type of Enhanced Vision.

Yk bout TR? Ay lemme get ur discord, we can discuss some stuff, same as you David.

Yh but Hanma allows himself to get hit in fights seeing as he allowed chifuyu to hit him to have some fun. He was tryin against Mikey tho since he blabbered on about him being inhuman at the end of the fight showing the scan directly translates to the narrative

This is Berserk Mode

why

 

[DavidTPPM]

He's being a good boy and taking a break.

For his own good I would hope so. Doesn't really seem like it.

Just cause ur being precogged doesn't mean ur not resisting it.

By definition it quite literally does mean that.

When a person with something like duraneg, attacks you, and you get hit, and then as the fight goes on you're hit until you eventually regenerate to the point where you can no longer be effected. Ur resisting it.

No, that's not how resistances work whatsoever.
Somehow this is again the same conversation I had with Vzearr like a week ago.

Great kinetic vision is enhanced senses when he cant take a direct hit from anyone.

Great kinetic vision doesn't inherently necessitate what we consider "enhanced senses" on the wiki.

Mikey also is comp to hanma in base so idk what you want me to do

Doesn't really mean anything.
Also is he tho? As far as I remember Mikey is pretty blatantly the top dog that pretty much nobody is actually on par with.

They're comp even in their second fight:

No idea what that scan is ngl.

Ur also saying he's blitzing Izana but that dont make sense when he narrowly dodged a hit.

Is it narrowly dodging the hit or completely outspeeding it by only moving when it's very close?
We see the upper panel shows Izana is already mid-kick while Mikey is not moving at all. And the speed lines in the middle panel imply Mikey only moved a small distance by the time the kick was extremely close. The last panel shows Mikey still dodged by solid 10 centimeters with his head.

Given the panel sequence and Mikeys nonchalant face, I think it's clear the point of the page is to show Mikey greatly outspeeding Izana and not the opposite.

Not knowing left from right and up from down in Mikey's scenario he's likely dead ass cause DI is a supernatural curse that cause people to not think properly, Mikey's DI is an enhanced one from Shinichiro who killed a homeless dude instinctively. He said some bs like "he's dead??" kinda implying he acted without much thought.

That's just berserk mode. Blind rage and instinctive actions aren't necessarily the same.

Good points.

Paralysis inducement is kinda vague, so, if ur able to completely stop someones movements u qualify for it, which is what Kakucho did. It's also limited.

Uh not really. Unless you're saying every character on the wiki should have limited PI because they can immobilize weak enough opponents by hitting them hard enough.

Just because an ability technically fits description doesn't mean we grant it. Otherwise every character on the wiki would have sooo many abilities that they shouldn't really have.

Like you're not going to give Mikey air manipulation for breathing and heat manipulation for having a body temperature that can technically make things around it hotter, even tho they technically fit the description.

Disarticulation is defined as seperating bones from joints, and no human has ever seperated a bone from a joint without dumb luck unless it's in Jiujutsu or some bs sport like that.

Oooh that's what you mean.
I mean isn't dislocating shoulders and whatnot pretty standard for martial arts? I really doubt that needs superhuman precision.

Is there any feat of Mikey doing so which would support he's not achieving it through normal means and rather in a way that requires SP?

 

[LostLightt]

No, that's not how resistances work whatsoever.
Somehow this is again the same conversation I had with Vzearr like a week ago.

yh but Idk what convo u had and vapes a shit debater so beating him aint impressive:

I aint even make this yet he's at the bottom on every tl.

Great kinetic vision doesn't inherently necessitate what we consider "enhanced senses" on the wiki.

He can't be hit by any normal human which supports me

Doesn't really mean anything.
Also is he tho? As far as I remember Mikey is pretty blatantly the top dog that pretty much nobody is actually on par with.

Mikey has AD and gets stronger as the series goes on, at the start, Hanma is comp to Mikey

No idea what that scan is ngl.

It's Izana and Mikey's second fight translated.

Is it narrowly dodging the hit or completely outspeeding it by only moving when it's very close?
We see the upper panel shows Izana is already mid-kick while Mikey is not moving at all. And the speed lines in the middle panel imply Mikey only moved a small distance by the time the kick was extremely close. The last panel shows Mikey still dodged by solid 10 centimeters with his head.

Given the panel sequence and Mikeys nonchalant face, I think it's clear the point of the page is to show Mikey greatly outspeeding Izana and not the opposite.

If Mikey aint moved at all by the time Izana is kicking roughly 1 meter, wouldn't that suggest Mikey's still slower than Izana, and not that he's faster than Izana. It would

Mikey's non challant face don't prove much

That's just berserk mode. Blind rage and instinctive actions aren't necessarily the same.

Idk much about beserk mode but I provided evidence as to why its instinctive. If you disagree I'm fine with it. I guess

Uh not really. Unless you're saying every character on the wiki should have limited PI because they can immobilize weak enough opponents by hitting them hard enough.

Nah Kakucho tho defo has it since high tiers comp to him can't paralyse mid tiers. But he can.

Oooh that's what you mean.
I mean isn't dislocating shoulders and whatnot pretty standard for martial arts? I really doubt that needs superhuman precision

Nah it's standard in grappling, not in punching if there is a valid way to dislocate someones bones with a kick without luck, I haven't found it

 

[DavidTPPM]

yh but Idk what convo u had and vapes a shit debater so beating him aint impressive:

Holy cornball

I aint even make this yet he's at the bottom on every tl.

My point wasn't that "I beat Vzearr". My point was that both you and him share a very rare misconception about what qualifies as a resistance which is a bit worrying given the whole proxy thing.

I really don't care if you think you're a C tier debater or an SSS+ ultra super debater man. I'm not trying to have an epic sigma debate where I defeat an opponent, I'm trying to have a constructive discussion.

He can't be hit by any normal human which supports me

Does it tho? Does a superhuman fighter being hard to hit for normal humans support him having some crazy enhanced senses?

That aside you're missing the point. Even if he had hawk level eyesight and dog level hearing and smell, why would hitting him qualify as resisting his senses? That's not how resistances work.

Mikey has AD and gets stronger as the series goes on, at the start, Hanma is comp to Mikey

Is he tho? It's been a while since I've read the manga but didn't Mikey kinda just OHKO him?

It's Izana and Mikey's second fight translated.

From where?

If Mikey aint moved at all by the time Izana is kicking roughly 1 meter, wouldn't that suggest Mikey's still slower than Izana, and not that he's faster than Izana. It would

Huh? It's not that he didn't move at all, it's that he didn't even start moving. Meaning Izana had a huge head start which requires Mikey to accelerate within a much shorter time frame.

If Mikey can afford to start moving so much later and still match if not outspeed his kick that'd mean he must be faster.

Mikey's non challant face don't prove much

It proves the dodge was casual which is enough to debunk the notion that he was just narrowly dodging.

Idk much about beserk mode but I provided evidence as to why its instinctive. If you disagree I'm fine with it. I guess

You didn't really provide evidence why it's instinctive. You said some stuff which doesn't necessarily mean anything about instinctive actions.

Nah Kakucho tho defo has it since high tiers comp to him can't paralyse mid tiers. But he can.

That kinda just depends on the fighting style.

Anyway that's all besides the point, the point is that Mikey doesn't really resist anything for no-selling his attacks since at worst Kakucho doesn't have PI and at best it's limited to physically weaker opponents which Mikey is clearly not.

Nah it's standard in grappling, not in punching if there is a valid way to dislocate someones bones with a kick without luck, I haven't found it

I'm not saying its standard in punching, I'm saying it's possible for a human to dislocate something without superhuman precision.

The problem for irl humans isn't that they lack the accuracy to do so with punches. It's that they lack the physical strength to do so with a short burst strike, and because of that they usually need to more slowly apply pressure.

Even personally I've met people who's health problems made their joints much weaker than average and made it so even bumping into them too hard could dislocate their shoulder. And given that Mikey is an absolute superhuman beast in terms of stats, I really don't think it's impossible for him to do so to regular people with just strikes.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I already explained ts

This is not resistance. An example of limited resistance I can use is Hajun vs Buddha, where Buddha cannot predict Hajun’s movements even when using his ability. That is not the case here: Takemichi can clearly predict Mikey’s movements, but he cannot dodge them because he is slower.

Ay lemme get ur discord

The guy wants me to walk barefoot where a rat walks in sneakers.

Yh but Hanma allows himself to get hit in fights seeing as he allowed chifuyu to hit him to have some fun. He was tryin against Mikey tho since he blabbered on about him being inhuman at the end of the fight showing the scan directly translates to the narrative

Hanma lost the fight to Draken because he was weaker, not because he allowed himself to lose. Draken finishes the fight almost unscathed, while Hanma is badly injured, even though he started the fight with the advantage of wielding a bat.

why

This is where he fits based on the demonstrations

 

[LostLightt]

Holy cornball

Repeat that

 

[LostLightt]

Holy cornball

My point wasn't that "I beat Vzearr". My point was that both you and him share a very rare misconception about what qualifies as a resistance which is a bit worrying given the whole proxy thing.

I really don't care if you think you're a C tier debater or an SSS+ ultra super debater man. I'm not trying to have an epic sigma debate where I defeat an opponent, I'm trying to have a constructive discussion.

u missed my point, I'm saying I'm a better debater than vapour, therefore its better if u debate it again with someone who's more knowledgable

Does it tho? Does a superhuman fighter being hard to hit for normal humans support him having some crazy enhanced senses?
That aside you're missing the point. Even if he had hawk level eyesight and dog level hearing and smell, why would hitting him qualify as resisting his senses? That's not how resistances work.

Because he cant be hit by regular punches, Mikey is comp to him, Mikey doesn't have regular punches, Mikey is more skilled than someone whom he's comp to, meaning he's resistant to enhanced vision.

If Mikey were massively superior, that'd be different, but he aint, they're ~relative.

Is he tho? It's been a while since I've read the manga but didn't Mikey kinda just OHKO him?

In dark impulse yeah

From where?

Exhibition of the final chapter

Huh? It's not that he didn't move at all, it's that he didn't even start moving. Meaning Izana had a huge head start which requires Mikey to accelerate within a much shorter time frame.

If Mikey can afford to start moving so much later and still match if not outspeed his kick that'd mean he must be faster.

It proves the dodge was casual which is enough to debunk the notion that he was just narrowly dodging.

What? That doesn't even prove anything, If Izanas kick was halfway done before Mikey could react that suggests they're comp or Izana is superior. Ur also ignoring their second fight

You're question begging. You said Mikey has to accelerate within a much shorter time frame then Mikey can afford to start moving much later, you're assuming the conclusion based on ur premises.

That kinda just depends on the fighting style.

Anyway that's all besides the point, the point is that Mikey doesn't really resist anything for no-selling his attacks since at worst Kakucho doesn't have PI and at best it's limited to physically weaker opponents which Mikey is clearly not.

If u use that argument you'd never scale anyone to that resistance.

I'm not saying its standard in punching, I'm saying it's possible for a human to dislocate something without superhuman precision.

Yeah but Mikey does it with punches and kicks. You dont see humans precisely having a special skill to dislocate joints from bones with a kick or punch. Cause its not possible

The problem for irl humans isn't that they lack the accuracy to do so with punches. It's that they lack the physical strength to do so with a short burst strike, and because of that they usually need to more slowly apply pressure.

Can u prove that. Cause like, dislocating a bone doesn't take that much force.

 

[LostLightt]

Btw I'm not claiming what yall might think, Mikey shows resistance in the sense that opponents precognition, prediction, and inhuman visual eyes remain ineffective against him in practice, cause they don't have defensive or offensive outcomes despite being actively used. Therefore resistance.

 

[LostLightt]

Yo my bad for goin off topic

 

[Agnaa]

Ur using the resistance to precognition as the basis for ur debunk and ur argument is contingent on resistances failing to work. Well, theres a few interps here, and ur stance is that hes not resistant cause the ability didn't fail to work? But, the ability for precog fails to work cause Takemichi can no longer react to Mikeys kicks after he amps himself throughout the fight. A speed amp is a clear indication the ability fails to work, u get me?

A speed amp is not a clear indicator of that, no.

Mikey negates the effectivness of precog. An example if u want: If I fight someone with dura neg, nd my regeneration speed continuously increases to the point where their attacks no longer produce lasting damage, I have limited resistance to their dura neg. the same logic can be applied to Mikey.

No, that's not how we treat resistances. The ability has to have an opportunity to work, yet fail to function. Dodging something, recovering from damage dealt, and the like, are not things we call resistance.

I also personally think that is a way better definition of resistance, but I don't wanna argue about something like that.

Hanma and Mikey are comp

Resistance to Enhanced Vision: Can easily blitz and hit big fat Hanma who has great kinetic vision.

---

But you have given more support for some of the other stuff, which has made it plausible, so I'd need to dig into the scans to figure out whether it's actually legit or not.

So, I still disagree with resistance to enhanced vision, but I'm neutral on the rest now.

 

[LostLightt]

No, that's not how we treat resistances. The ability has to have an opportunity to work, yet fail to function.

Takemichi's ability initially worked but slowly it got negated when he increased his speed (mikey).

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Btw I'm not claiming what yall might think, Mikey shows resistance in the sense that opponents precognition, prediction, and inhuman visual eyes remain ineffective against him in practice, cause they don't have defensive or offensive outcomes despite being actively used. Therefore resistance.

 

[LostLightt]

U dont wanna see me talking not ratchet

 

[Agnaa]

Takemichi's ability initially worked but slowly it got negated when he increased his speed (mikey).

That's not negating it, it's outpacing Takemichi's ability to use that information.

 

[LostLightt]

That's not negating it, it's outpacing Takemichi's ability to use that information.

If Takemichi could precog Mikey’s attacks yet still failed to dodge them, then Mikey didn’t only outspeed Takemichi’s reactions but made the precognition useless, thats gotta be a form of limited resistance.

I aint staff so I jst gotta follow what you say, but like is the other stuff in my crt fine

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Is he tho? It's been a while since I've read the manga but didn't Mikey kinda just OHKO him?

Yeah, you’re remembering correctly

In dark impulse yeah

Are we reading the same manga? Mikey’s eyes turn completely white when he is in Dark Impulse mode. Here we can clearly see his eyes with their normal color, showing that he is in his “base” form and severely injured.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Btw I'm not claiming what yall might think, Mikey shows resistance in the sense that opponents precognition, prediction, and inhuman visual eyes remain ineffective against him in practice, cause they don't have defensive or offensive outcomes despite being actively used. Therefore resistance.

We understand you're claiming this. We're saying that isn't what we consider a "resistance" on the wiki.

What you're showing is the abilities working as intended but Mikey somehow overcoming their use.

What? That doesn't even prove anything, If Izanas kick was halfway done before Mikey could react that suggests they're comp or Izana is superior.

What implies it was halfway done before Mikey could REACT rather than before Mikey decided to start moving? Because that interpretation would imply Mikeys reaction speed is ridiculous slow in comparison to his actual combat speed.

And it wouldn't suggest they're comparable. It'd suggest Mikey is physically much faster but his reaction speed is awfully slow.

Ur also ignoring their second fight

Because I genuinely don't get what or where is it from since TR is a manga lol.

But more importantly your evidence in the OP shows their first fight so I'm debunking their first fight. And there Mikey doesn't show anything that's suggesting he's negating Izanas predictions rather than just him blitzing Izana.

Also a good thing to mention is that Izana at that point was mentally not well. That is THE argument used to keep the fight from capping the verse at ~<bullet level speed, but that also means Izana probably wasn't even trying to predict Mikey to begin with, as that'd require mental focus.

You're question begging. You said Mikey has to accelerate within a much shorter time frame then Mikey can afford to start moving much later, you're assuming the conclusion based on ur premises.

No, if you actually read my first comment on the scene you'd see it's a conclusion to an analysis of the scene. Not an assumption.

We undeniably see Mikey only starts moving long after Izana was already mid-attack. And we see he dodges it at last moment by a significant amount.
Smaller timeframe to accelerate + at least equal, likely higher end speed = far higher acceleration.

I'm not making any assumptions, I'm describing what is shown in the manga.

If u use that argument you'd never scale anyone to that resistance.

To this specific type of this specific ability? Yeah, you wouldn't.

Only way to scale to it would be if someone provably significantly weaker than Kakucho got hit by the attack that was shown to "paralyze" people and walked it off without being paralyzed.
That'd be the only realistic way to get that resistance here.

Yeah but Mikey does it with punches and kicks. You dont see humans precisely having a special skill to dislocate joints from bones with a kick or punch. Cause its not possible

And why would you assume the lack of accuracy is what makes it impossible?

Can u prove that. Cause like, dislocating a bone doesn't take that much force.

I guess this should be enough since it explains strikes such as getting hit by a car or similar can cause it

Dislocation: Types, Treatment & Prevention

Dislocations happen when the bones in one of your joints are knocked or pushed out of their usual places. It usually takes at least a few weeks to heal.

my.clevelandclinic.org

However what I was specifically referring to were people with hypermobility issues.

If Takemichi could precog Mikey’s attacks yet still failed to dodge them, then Mikey didn’t only outspeed Takemichi’s reactions but made the precognition useless, thats gotta be a form of limited resistance.

I aint staff so I jst gotta follow what you say, but like is the other stuff in my crt fine

No, not resistance. Making it useless through unrelated means like additional abilities, your own predictions, or stat advantage aren't considered a "resistance" here.

If Mikey is purposely changing the speed of his attacks to throw Takemitchi off it could be an intelligence feat but it still wouldn't be considered resistance

 

[LostLightt]

Are we reading the same manga? Mikey’s eyes turn completely white when he is in Dark Impulse mode. Here we can clearly see his eyes with their normal color, showing that he is in his “base” form and severely injured.

Why r u trying to argue with someone whos read the manga like 3 times.

Mikey was in DI:

My Gallery — Postimages

postimg.cc

What implies it was halfway done before Mikey could REACT rather than before Mikey decided to start moving? Because that interpretation would imply Mikeys reaction speed is ridiculous slow in comparison to his actual combat speed.

If Mikey didn't move when Izana's kick was halfway, why would you assume he isn't similar in terms of speed, ur assuming that Mikey saw the kick coming and decided to not move, thats a pretty weird interp

Because I genuinely don't get what or where is it from since TR is a manga lol.

But more importantly your evidence in the OP shows their first fight so I'm debunking their first fight. And there Mikey doesn't show anything that's suggesting he's negating Izanas predictions rather than just him blitzing Izana.

Also a good thing to mention is that Izana at that point was mentally not well. That is THE argument used to keep the fight from capping the verse at ~<bullet level speed, but that also means Izana probably wasn't even trying to predict Mikey to begin with, as that'd require mental focus.

Pretty sure he started hallucinating and becoming delusional after Mikey was beating him. Also thats vapes argument, I didn't even bring it up here.

We undeniably see Mikey only starts moving long after Izana was already mid-attack. And we see he dodges it at last moment by a significant amount.
Smaller timeframe to accelerate + at least equal, likely higher end speed = far higher acceleration.

I'm not making any assumptions, I'm describing what is shown in the manga.

What. He barley dodged it, he dodged it by like 10cm, what do you mean by a significant amount and if he dodges it at the last moment that suggests he's comp or slower than izana. Also ur math is weird, If Mikey moved 10 cm, whilst Izana's foot was an unknown distance away from him, he wouldn't be massively faster, it'd be the opposite.

Only way to scale to it would be if someone provably significantly weaker than Kakucho got hit by the attack that was shown to "paralyze" people and walked it off without being paralyzed.
That'd be the only realistic way to get that resistance here.

What. That dont even make sense

I guess this should be enough since it explains strikes such as getting hit by a car or similar can cause it

Dislocation: Types, Treatment & Prevention

Dislocations happen when the bones in one of your joints are knocked or pushed out of their usual places. It usually takes at least a few weeks to heal.

my.clevelandclinic.org

However what I was specifically referring to were people with hypermobility issues.

Obv a car can dislocate ur bones, thats not a strike, thats a human sized vehicle that attacks all parts of the body.

 

[LostLightt]

Btw Mikey has resisted paralysis several times in the past making it all the more likely

Gun shot to the temple
Metal pipe to the temple and dome

Mikeys paralysis resistance is consistent.

 

[DavidTPPM]

If Mikey didn't move when Izana's kick was halfway, why would you assume he isn't similar in terms of speed,

I'm not, assuming he's not similar in speed". Why would him being similar in speed be the standard that I have to make assumptions against?

ur assuming that Mikey saw the kick coming and decided to not move, thats a pretty weird interp

No, I'm not assuming anything. I'm literally describing the scene to you. Mikey undeniably outsped Izana. If YOU assume he couldn't react until he started moving you're inherently claiming that Mikeys reactions are hilariously slow in comparison to his own combat speed. Since then you'd be saying he can go from standing still to out speeding Izana by a significant distance by the time Izana can travel few centimeters but it takes him the time that takes Izana to move his foot over a meter just to react to the incoming attack.

And it makes much more sense that Mikey only started moving when it became necessary because than to say Mikeys reaction speed is 10x slower than his combat speed. Especially given the fight basically consists of Mikey seemingly stat-stomping Izana with no implications or verbal statements about skill being the deciding factor.

Pretty sure he started hallucinating and becoming delusional after Mikey was beating him. Also thats vapes argument, I didn't even bring it up here.

I'm fine with scrapping the argument, I'm not saying you made it.
I'm saying scrapping it would make the subsonic cap arguments for the verse even stronger.

What. He barley dodged it, he dodged it by like 10cm,

Huh? That's… not barely whatsoever.
We see a close up of Izanas foot like 2cm away from Mikeys face and by the time he dodges he's like 10cm away.
Not only is the gap between him and the foot much bigger, meaning he moved faster than Izana, but he started moving much later meaning even just to catch up he'd need to accelerate much faster.

what do you mean by a significant amount and if he dodges it at the last moment that suggests he's comp or slower than izana.

Dodging it at the last moment on its own does not suggest he's slower or comparable to Izana whatsoever.

Also ur math is weird, If Mikey moved 10 cm, whilst Izana's foot was an unknown distance away from him, he wouldn't be massively faster, it'd be the opposite.

We literally get a close up of the foot being like 2-3cm away from his face right as he starts to move and then being like 10cm away when he dodges. All while Mikey only started moving much later

I honestly feel like you don't quite grasp the concept of speed. The later you start moving the more speed you need to avoid an attack because the shorter the timeframe gets.

What. That dont even make sense

How does it not make sense? If you can cause minor "paralysis" by knocking the wind out of someone, damaging them, or just causing pain, then the ability only works on people weak enough. And so only people who could get resistance from it are those who are both unaffected and weak enough to be affected.

Obv a car can dislocate ur bones, thats not a strike, thats a human sized vehicle that attacks all parts of the body.

That's still a strike.
If anything it hitting the entire body would go against your idea that striking would require superhuman precision to dislocate a joint.
Since it means that as long as you hit hard enough, the surface area and therefore precision of your strike doesn't matter.

 

[LostLightt]

Yo are u serious rn?

Ur literally implying a car hitting u is the same as a human punch hitting u.

Kakucho's hits cause paralysis to Angry who is a high tier.

U've also ignored the supporting feats I gave

Also I never said to scrap the delusional thing, I'm saying it's not applicable to this thread in any way.

Orange line (85 pixels) Mikey's face. Lets assume its 25 cm long.

Distance from the kick = 43 pixels = 12.6 cm moved.

Blue line = 129 pixels which is like 10 cm which is how wide shoes are.

Mikey's eye height = 2.7 cm at most or 51 pixels.

Distance from the shoe = 54 pixels

Panel height =239 pixels (purple line)

Angsizing = 2.7 * 239/[51*2*tan(70deg/2)] = 9 cm
Angsizing = 10 * 239/[129*2*tan(70deg/2)] = 13.2 cm
Distance between them = 4.2 cm

Distance Mikey moved = 2.8 cm.

Then if you wanna calculate how much Izana's leg moved in the last panel u'd use angle math, and you'd prolly get like 1 meter.

So according to ur math, Mikey moved less distance to Izana, this aint obviously the correct interp, according to you

Mikey also has supporting feats for anpr as listed in the op.

So if Mikey didn't outspeed Izana how is he blatantly beating him, it's obv via skill, Izana's punches miss and he counters them. Same as the kicks.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Resistance to Precognition: Despite big fat Takemichi having Precognition, Mikey was able to go from being unable to hit him to hitting him consistently and winning the fight.

The visions are shown to still be working, it's just he's not reacting to them quickly enough. Resistance is the act of stopping the visions entirely, such as not appearing in them or nullifying them. This just seems like speed.

Resistance to Enhanced Vision: Can easily blitz and hit big fat Hanma who has great kinetic vision.

You don't get resistance to enhanced senses just for hitting someone who has them.

Resistance to Analytical Prediction: Went from having all of his moves predicted by Izana to beating and outskilling him without any difficulty. Can easily blitz and hit Hanma who has great kinetic vision. Is vastly superior to Baji in skill whom is capable of killing people with expert boxing and analytical prediction skill.

https://imgur.com/a/GIrY8eO
https://imgur.com/a/di-mikey-vs-hanma-WTZfhCa
https://imgur.com/a/w7Ht83W
https://imgur.com/gallery/kid-mikey-genius-martial-artist-rk4XkCU
https://imgur.com/a/iUbBqqC
https://imgur.com/a/GLx8Gjp

These links don't show analytical prediction.

Izana's "undefeatable senses" implies sight and hearing. Two of the 5 senses that make the most sense for the fight. Izana can hear and see Mikey's moves, despite this, he's unable to land a hit despite their stats not being far apart.

Same as above.

Instinctive Action: When in DI, doesn't know left from right or up from down. But is still able to fight at the level of god tiers.
https://imgur.com/a/LEecAU3

Sounds like berserk mode.

Limited resistance to paralysis inducement: Kakucho's punches left Chifuyu and Angry unable to move temporarily, yet had no effect on Mikey.

Sounds like durability.

Kakucho stated it was as if he was "punching a ghost" when hitting Mikey.

https://imgur.com/a/Hjg7RCV
https://imgur.com/a/Ym0Y3gl

Statement could have implied something but he's talking about how it doesn't hurt him and likening him to a ghost for that. This seems like durability.

Martial arts additions: Is capable of outskilling every notable delinquent in the verse, including 2 vs 1's on bad footing against expert fighters. Expert boxers, taekwondo users, judo users, capoeira users, and more. Is an expert at disarticulation of bones, paralysis and fights whilst holding back.

Mikey's kick at 4 years old where he unseals a bottle cap is an extraordinary feat. Due to age, the type of bottle cap, and skill. The best 4 year old martial arts feats include hitting small targets with kicks like a paddle, or a balloon. At 4 years old, regular people start to learn how to balance on one foot for a few seconds, Mikey however is able to balance on one leg, kick with one leg, perform acrobatic movements, and kick sealed cider bottle caps clean off, which is a feat beyond what skilled martial artists do, which is kicking a plastic lid off. Even then it's rarley kicked clean off. Therefore, Mikey's precision should be genius level, as well as his martial arts, remember he did ts at 4 and with one leg. As well as the following ability:

Skill feats are fine.

Superhuman precision: Angle snap kicked off a cider bottle cap whilst standing on one leg at 4 years old.

https://imgur.com/gallery/kid-mikey-genius-martial-artist-rk4XkCU

The 4 years old and one leg part makes this superhuman.

Superhuman precision: Can seperate bones with kicks/punches.

https://imgur.com/a/J3Xe1KR

These sound like feats of force as much as precision. Superhuman precision generally refers to the act of being far more precise and accurate than a human can possibly be. I'm uncertain about these ones.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

The visions are shown to still be working, it's just he's not reacting to them quickly enough. Resistance is the act of stopping the visions entirely, such as not appearing in them or nullifying them. This just seems like speed.

You don't get resistance to enhanced senses just for hitting someone who has them.

These links don't show analytical prediction.

Same as above.

Sounds like berserk mode.

Sounds like durability.

Statement could have implied something but he's talking about how it doesn't hurt him and likening him to a ghost for that. This seems like durability.

Skill feats are fine.

These sound like feats of force as much as precision. Superhuman precision generally refers to the act of being far more precise and accurate than a human can possibly be. I'm uncertain about these ones.

Agreed