Wait, Mikey's mom death and Mikey defeating those 3 goons don't happen close to each other.
Nope. Mikey was at 5th grade of Elemantary when he met Draken, which would make him 10-11 years old, while Japanese kids start elemantary school at 6 years of age. Class 7 is just his classroom's name, not his grade.
I looked at the scans and it was 1997 July when he kicked Shinichiro. Mikey's birthday August 1990 so he is 6, close to turning 7, and he kicked Shinichiro after his mother passed away, confirming that he was around 4-7 years of age when he beat those dudes.
I know that class 7 is his just class name, I automatically thought they were 12-13 when they just met, my bad.
I think that was an error, it says 1997, but if you look at the calender, you'd see 999 with the number 1 seemed to be blocked by something.
Nah he didn't say he was a 3rd grader, he just said that he beat a 3rd grader.
Yep, you seem to be right.
I mean, that'd be kind of an overstatement. Baji was 13 years old when he met Chifuyu, and he fought Kiyomaro a few months after, who should be comparable to Soichiro. a 12-13 year old Mikey should be massively superior to 13 year old Baji, so;
Fair enough.
I've already said this, I'll say it again, my reasoning is that Sameyama's gang is stated to control the neighborhood of Shibuya, so these guys are stronger than your average randoms, Mikey's kick to Sameyama dealt more damage than Baji's punch to random goon that cracked a wall.
I'm not sure about this, it'll be better if the spin-off is completed to conclude things. And Di Mikey is another thing.
Nice
To be honest, this reasoning looks fine. To add, Sameyama is a freshman highschooler, while the goon Baji punches is very likely a 3rd year middleschooler (or junior high schooler).
Eh, there's really nothing to get concluded imo. We might get more scaling but nothing's gonna change the fact that Chonbo and Chome scales above Yotsuya Kaidan guys.
Agree with the latter, for the former, the wiki would require you to take the lowest end possible to scale him.
Kensho might have either left the juvie earlier, ran away or die. He seemed like a strong dude and I'm not comfortable scaling him below kazutora outright, but the other guys' placement seems ok.
Yeah, and 21 KJ is the lowest end so...
I mean him getting out earlier doesn't really matter as Kazutora didn't specify. He said "strongest in the juvie" which includes Kensho too, taking anything else into account would be an assumption if we don't see anything contradicting it.
Don't really think Kazutora scales above Kensho. You can at best scale him to Baji, and even then Kensho is superior.
By lowest end I mean, the character's stats will be indexed as low as possible, here we don't know the exact Mikey's age when he destroyed those goons, so we'd have to go by age 8-9 as default.
Don't take every word at face value, especially here where the details aren't all out yet, they don't always have to specify everything, a single sentence could entail more than one thing, it is a problem if there's a character who's portrayed as very strong, much above the mid tiers at the time and then suddenly scaling him below gangsters who work under said mid tiers. For this reason I believe it's best to wait to see what'll happen in the spin-off manga.
By default you'd have to scale Chome and Chonbo below Kazutora because they work under him.
He destroyed them at ages between 4-9, we don't know the exact age though, so we don't necessarily have to go with the lowest end.
There's nothing suggesting the opposite though? There's no detail that will change the fact that Chonbo and Chome being stated as the strongest dudes Kazutora met in Juvie, except for a scene of Yotsuya dudes beating them.
Working under someone doesn't = to being below them in terms of fighting prowess. Examples of this would be Shinichiro leading 1st gen Black Dragons even though he's stated to be a bad fighter and Kisaki leading Moebius (Osanai being a really good example of how muscles ≠ leadership in TR) and Valhalla even though he's comparable to Base Takemichi.
The thing is that we know he's at least 8-9 year old when he beat up the goons, but we have no idea if he's below that age, it's just a possibility.
There's nothing that will change that Kazutora said they're the strongest obviously, the problem is what he means, based on just that statment, it could mean more than one thing, it could mean out of the people that remained in the juvie with him, they're the strongest. Let me make a scenario, let's say there's X gang, there are 50 members, some of them died in an accident including the strongest one, and they're left with like 35 members, and after quite some time, someone, let's name him Y, who knew the gang really well took the strongest out of the remaining 35 gang members and introduced him to train in Z facility, the head of Z facility might ask Y who's he is, it's as, if not more plausible that he'd answer the head of Z facility by telling him that he's the strongest X gang member, he may not want to explain every single thing about it.
I am well aware of that, but the thing is Kazutora isn't necessarily comparable to the two.
It's a really straight forward statement so I don't understand why we have to make up all these assumptions to discard it. "Let's say" or "for example"s are all specific assumptions, while the statement we have is a really on-point one.
For your assumptions to work he would need to be specific.
Each Toman founder has crazy reputation in verse by default, due to defeating 9th Generation Black Dragons back then with only 6 members. He's also friends with Kensho, who has influence over an entire city.
Kazutora never stated that Chonbo and Chome were the strongest people he met when he was in juvie, he just said "they were the strongest guys in the juvie I went to" in one translation and in the other he said "they were the strongest guys at my reform school". This changes meaning because if he said what you said, it includes every single person he met there when he was in the juvie, but he never mentions such.
They're not always enough to make someone follow you though, Mikey has crazy reputation, and he still needs to fight to get people on his side.
Reform school is a synonym for juvie so it doesn't change anything. He went to one juvie and Yotsuya Kaidan guys, Chome and Chonbo were all there. Chome and Chonbo are the strongest.
They don't have to fight them. Kazutora has eyes. He can observe if one character is superior to other.
Well he should specify if he means something else which he doesn't, so we should go with what's stated.
He mostly doesn't. He only fought Pah, Peh, Kawata Bros and Mucho to get them on his side.
I'm not arguing about the synonymity of 'juvie' and 'reform school'; in fact, I do agree with you. You misinterpreted what I said, what I meant is that, Kazutora just said they're the strongest in the juvie, he doesn't say that they're the strongest people he met when he was in the juvie.
By fighting I also mean fighting the leaders of other gangs so the people working under them joins him, this happens with ran, rindou, mochi, shion and Kakucho.
Basically the same thing.
You would need evidence on that if it did.
You're constructing your argument on the fact that Kensho is already proven to be stronger than Chonbo and Chome, while that's literally the thing in question here, which is fallacious. This is pretty much saying "Mikey is the strongest character in the series because he's the strongest". You're using your premise to prove your point.
It's more about the character's preference of recruiting captains. Like how South "negotiates" with people, how Shinichiro influences people, like how Takemichi influences people to get them under their control. It's a case by case basis tbh.
No...
He is a charismatic dude with good reputation. He can easily influence people without needing to throw hands.
Not really as I explained, the latter is very specific, it shows that they're clearly the strongest, the former statement has a room for different possibilities.
Things in general actually, if X person no longer is a part of Y group he used to be in and Z person were to rate the Y group members in terms of XYZ, he wouldn't include the X person because he's no longer part of that group.
Not really, the example I gave was directed at this
On how if someone were to rank people of the same group, they won't include the people who are not part of the group anymore.
Yeah, South had his methods, which is the most basic way to recruit teams, Shinichiro and Takemichi are loved because they never give up.
Not really. If I say "Mike Tyson is the hardest hitting boxer", the first thing that would came to mind wouldn't be "Mike Tyson is the hardest hitting heavyweight boxer", as "the hardest hitting boxer" refers to all time.
Though being in the detention center isn't being a part of a group. Kazutora says "they were the strongest guys in the juvenile center I stayed in", which include both Yotsuya Kaidan guys' stay and Chonbo and Chome's stay, even if they got into juvie later.
It goes to the same thing. You think Kensho is stronger than Chonbo and Chome and make your arguments using your own premise. That's not how you construct arguments.
It doesn't have to be similar. Ofc his charisma isn't equal to Shinichiro's or Takemichi's. Though he only needs to influence two guys, not entire gangs. Come on now, any Toman captain can do that.
Using Mike Tyson is not a good example because it's a timeless, broad and general assessment which is not limited with context unlike the other which is context specific.
I do think Kensho is superior of course, but this in specific isn't about that, it is strictly about what I explicitly wrote.
Fair enough, though how he got Kensho can be attributed how close they were and how closer they become after they went to juvie because they have more things in common and how he spent less time with baji.
And about this, I prefer things to be clearer but I'm necessarily opposed to it, so you get my point.
Just like Kazutora's statement lol.
I can tell the opposite.
We always go with the most probable interperation when we're at equal interperation, which would be my interp.
I mean, they seemed like pretty close friends so don't think he'd just hate him after spending less time with him. Also, Baji stated that Kensho was a ghost Kazutora "created", created most likely meaning some kind of manipulation, or we can also use my theory which is Kazutora's Dark Impulses triggering something in Kensho to like obey Kazutora, like what Mikey did to Sanzu when they were kids.
Like I said, you're using your premise and base your argument on that, which would be question begging.
I agree. We can discuss it more in the CRT I'm gonna make.
Agree to disagree.
Not really, this is the thing in question
Premise 1: The smartest student leaves the school.
I'm probably neither oppose or support about that specific thing but I'm curious to see the other things you'd include
I guess.
I've bolded the part where you were wrong. You're assuming that, the smartest student is the smartest while that's also your premise.
Inverse speed and AP scalings are mostly fine, other than some bad errors. Though the lifting strength scaling of the verse is pretty
The argument does not assume without reason that the smartest student is the smartest. It begins with the accepted fact that a particular student is recognized as the smartest within the school. The argument does not assume its conclusion within the premises, it logically derives the conclusion from a set of accepted facts.
3.87MJ ap looking tasty, also if that choji calc gets accepted it should probably scale to most of the characters I guess.
And those accepted facts are your premise so
If it's completely independent from Kensho, why bring it up?
I don't understand why Taiju's percentage multipliers aren't used tbh. They are pretty consistent both AP and speed wise, maybe even lifting strength wise.
Choji has no lifting strength scaling lol. He is shown being able to beat no names, but he only does so via speed advantage and weaponry, not raw strength. His lifting strength would still scale relatively to no names, thus the whole verse pretty much.
A premise is a statement or an idea upon which an argument is built, so nothing wrong with that.
It goes back to this actually
About how the time of the assessment is critical when someone states things.
People weren't really invested in Taiju's multiplier, but there are evidences of it being correct, i doubt anyone would disagree with it using your reasoning you gave me on discord. The only people I can imagine disagreeing with it are the fans of characters Mikey got compared to, since they are also capable of disagreeing with reading manga based on panel orders.
Maybe, but in my humble opinion, it'd just scale to him, Kisaki and characters above him.
It's question begging which is a fallacy as you're using your own premise to prove something, while the premise is already at question.
The thing is that it's at best a 3.3x multiplier, and I've seen 5x multipliers getting accepted with only one statement on this site. Like the multipliers page states, we only need really reliable proof for 100x or above multipliers.
Eh, Kisaki was shown to be struggling aganist a really weakened Takemichi without his Resolution (I think?) and that Takemichi is comparable at best to no name delinquents.
Don't think wiki scales lifting strength like that. It literally gets stated that AP and Lifting Strength gets scaled differently.
Question begging is a fallacy where the conclusion is assumed in the premise.
Yeah it should easily be accepted for AP and Speed since it's pretty consistent, I doubt people would disagree with it except for the ones I talked about.
That Takemichi is with his resolution, Takemichi without resolution is the Takemichi at the beginning of the Valhalla fight, the coward version of him, but once his resolution kicks in, he easily defeated a goon, Takemichi without resolution is weaker than goons, at least from what they portrayed.
Yeah, that's why I'm not sure, but I think that if someone is superior to another character, it's more likely than not they're superior if not, equal to the other one in stats as well.
I hope it doesn't get lifted, I've seen people who vote against Mikey every single time he's matched with other characters. I've also seen them voting against him even when he had massive advantage (you know this particular one I'm talking about).
Yeah and that's what you did. You pretty much assumed that Kensho was stronger than Chonbo and Chome with the "smartest student in school leaves" stuff.
He doesn't really defeat goons easily before the final arc. He still gets damaged by them.
Eh, I agree.
Yeah I do hate vs threads made with Mikey. Don't have good memories with them.
They scale to 1 megajoule rn, which is pretty good imo. I've not seen many good speed feats from the verse, but they should scale to around Subsonic, and Class 1 through bending a baseball bat.
So you do realise the example itself has nothing wrong with it, and I don't even strictly say that Kensho is superior to them, just that I personally believe that he's superior. The example was about how critical the time of assessment is in order to conclude things as I explained above.
I didn't say he can easily defeat goons, just that he easily defeated a goon in the Valhalla arc after his resolution.
I can smell people trying to remove his abilities, and I wouldn't be surprised if they try to remove what's explicitly stated canonically, it happened once with one of his abilities disarticulation, it will likely happen with his genius level intelligence in martial arts, even though his grandfather explicitly stated he's a genius even in the japanese raws.
Might have to watch it later
I mean ur argument literally derived from Kensho already being accepted to be stronger than Chonbo and Chome so...
Yeah. His resolution before the Final Arc is more like actual willpower stuff, while in the final arc it becomes more like an Awakaned Power type amp.
People are still trying to remove that lmao. Being able to attack inner layers of the body is explicitly stated to be Dura Neg in the verse page. I don't get why those certain people are trying to remove that so much.
Yeah, I saw some people working on setting a BIQ standard just to remove that, evfen though Mikey has much better skill feats than being stated to being a genius.
I'm sure you'll want to start reading the manga after finishing the anime.
It's not directly about Kensho, but I see why you're confused.
Yup, also I forgot to mention the punch that got Taiju on his knees, it was probably due to the combined effects of Taiju having his back stabbed a while ago and Takemichi punching him in the chin.
See who they are a fan of and check if they're compared with Mikey, you'll get your answer lmao
I'm curious to see that
I mean the stab shouldn't affect him as he already stated that it wasn't a deep enough wound, and Taiju probably has enough stamina to fight normally after losing some blood.
