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Tokita Ohma vs Jonathan Joestar

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Well first off regen will be a pain for Ohma to deal with

Second off, Ohma outskills badly. Not to diss Jonathan's skill with the blade and boxing, but Ohma was able to impress Kuroki, a ridiculously skilled karateka capable of countering adaptation based martial arts, even while on brink of death.

Jonathan's only saving grace here is his versatility and ingenuity with ripple. The range factor is a big help as well. He could blast Ohma with ripple through the ground or from behind a wall. His water cannon could also do some serious if he gets to some water (though redirection kata may help).

Problem is, Jonathan is more likely to get up close to use ripple punches or sword slashes filled with ripple, putting him in range for Ohma to counter with Adamantine Kata.

Ripple's conductive nature may actually bypass Ohma's Redirection and Water Kata's and maybe even Demonsbane, but Ohma still can counter with boosting his stats with Advance, and can bypass regen via striking at the throat like he did vs Sekibayashi.
 
Gonna go with PTSO's reasoning. Jonathan's more likely to do just that by going up close in combat against his foes (if his fights against Bruford and Dio are anything to go by), where he's gonna be trounced if Ohma's page is right on his skill.

There's no doubt that he'll use any ripple inbued attacks as the fight goes but one shot to the throat, if he doesn't dodge it in time or whatever, that's game over for him to use any Ripple.
 
If Ouma's arsenal revolves around Martial Arts, doesn't he die the moment he gets a hit on Joseph? Cuz Hamon ignores dura and melts inner organs and touching a hamon charged master is asking for trouble. Mindhax is out of character for Joseph, but he's gonna pump Ohma with Hamon in every hit given or taken. And his regen would ensure that he can take the hits.

Voting Joseph low to mid difficulty.
 
It only melts people who are weak to sunlight

Also extremely out of character for someone like Jonathan to do that to a human character, even if he could.
 
It melts regardless of weakness to sunlight. When Caesar was handling Esidisi connected to Suzie Q, he was using extremely minuscule amounts of hamon otherwise it would have melted her.

Eh, I thought this was Joseph.

But do you know what's in character for Jonathan? Mindhax. Ohma has no counters to this as well.
 
They had to be careful with Suzie Q due to the presence of AC/DC and his blood vessels that had spread within her body, which is why they had to use a special technique that would scare AC/DC out while not destroying Suzie Q's heart

Also, ripple has never been shown to melt humans in one hit. And even if it did, not in character for Jonathan to do that against other humans.

Jonathan has used mind hax like once. Against a zombie. At the end of his arc as a last resort/dying move. And even then, in order to mind hax he'd had to hit Ohma with ripple, which will be difficult due to Ohma's massive skill gap on top of precog and info analysis that works against other people with precog who are evenly if not more skilled than Ohma.
 
He used it on the snakes too and got them to devour Doobie instead. And the snakes bit him, thus coming into contact with him and becoming mind controlled. When Ohma lands a punch, it'll be the same result.
 
Jonathan has to grab the snakes and then send ripple into them. It's wasn't on contact, he needs to grab them to channel ripple. Which is gonna be difficult due to Ohma's proficiency in grappling, he can out wrestle a guy whose whole specialty is strangling people who outclass him. That guy also had precog btw, and Ohma was skilled enough to use that precog against him.

Also, that was against poisonous snakes attached to a zombies (a guy who is weak to ripple) body. Why would he mind hax a normal human on his first move, when said humans only notable ability is punching? To add to that, Jonathan didn't follow up with mind hax against Dio right after that encounter, nor in the majority of his fights in that arc, so saying that he leads with it or even uses it that often in character is false. He has 2 cases of using it.
 
Hamon can be used on those weak to sunlight just fine, it just wont melt em unless the hamon is super ******* strong like Kars' but it can do things like mindhax (See Caesar mindhaxing the chick in his debut), induce instant knockout (The hijacker when Joseph was young), induce organ failure (Suzie Q, even went back and read the chapters Esidisi had nothing to do with the hamon having bad effects on Suzie Q, Suzie Q, a non-hamon practioner, wouldnt survive the shock of getting hamon sent through her, Esidisi even claimed that and Joseph and everypne confirmed it), also other examples do exist with manipulating plants and animals.

The only thing Hamon can't do on those that arent weak to it is bypass Regenerationn and vaporize but even then, it technically can if the hamon is strong enough as shown with Kars melting Joseph (although the only hamon user strong enough to do that is Kars himself so it doesnt effect this match).

Now not saying that's gonna matter bt Hamon does have a lot of effects on those not weak to it.
 
> nor in the majority of his fights in that arc, so saying that he leads with it or even uses it that often in character is false. He has 2 cases of using it.

To be fair, that's like 40% of the time. Part 1 wasnt exactly long.
 
Tbf, that was Joseph, who had a lot more practice and mastery over ripple than Jonathan. Plus, even if Jonathan were to shut down Ohma's heart, Ohma has shown that he has control over his heart, enough so that he can lower or increase his heart rate.

Yeah, but the fact that he only used it against 2 fodder vampires, one of which was a last resort move, and not against Dio or the human attackers that met him after his battle with Tarkus should support that he doesn't lead with or spam mind hax. Plus, as aforementioned, Jonathan first has to grab Ohma to force ripple into him, something that will be difficult due to the Redirection Kata and Water Kata's that aid Ohma in deflecting people.

Plus, all of this relies on Jonathan immediately going for the kill against a human and destroying Ohma's heart, something he would not do in character. This gives Ohma time to work with, and with his info analysis and enhanced senses, Ohma will likely figure out the Jonathan's powers are reliant on his breathing, meaning he will go for a throat strike against Jonathan like he did vs Sekibayashi and cut off his oxygen surprise and KO.
 
>that was Joseph, who had a lot more practice and mastery over ripple than Jonathan. Plus, even if Jonathan were to shut down Ohma's heart, Ohma has shown that he has control over his heart, enough so that he can lower or increase his heart rate.

And? It being Jonathan or Joseph doesnt matter, it wasnt attributed to skill or mastery, it was attributed to the hamon itself, if anything Joseph being more skilled means he can prevent accidentally killing with hamon, given that's what his skills allowed him to ultimately do with Caesar. Jonathan not being as skilled means he aint gonna be able to focus his hamon as well. Also unrelated but Jonathan actually had weeks of practice with Hamon under Will A. Zeppeli, albeit that sequence was cut from the anime.

>Yeah, but the fact that he only used it against 2 fodder vampires, one of which was a last resort move

It being used against 2 of his like 5 opponents? Statistically that's almost half. The hamon used against Wang wasnt a last resort, that's misreading the context. What it was was Jonathan using what was optimal, he was gimped and is now dying and everyone is already dead, in order to prevent any spreading he decided to mindhax Wang and have him stop because he himself could not.

> and not against Dio or the human attackers that met him after his battle with Tarkus should support that he doesn't lead with or spam mind hax.

Dio can easily be explained due to having a personal vendetta. (And the fact he literally never got the chance, Dio had flashfreeze, Jonathan only ever landed one hamon attack on Dio in that entire encounter because of Dio's flashfreeze and the hamon he did land was meant to kill him, why would Jonathan attempt to mindhax Dio when he could instead vaporize him completely killing him?). As for his battle with Dire, you mean the battle that lasted one move and before Jonathan could actually fight back as Dire told him to wait and cease the battle? He doesnt spam it and he may not lead with it but he definitly has no qualms using it, all your examples are being extremely ignorant of the context at hand acting like Jonathan actually had the chance to use it, while in neither encounter he even had he chance to use his hamon in general othr than Dio, but in that he only got the chance to use it once, and that one time was meant to kill.

>Plus, as aforementioned, Jonathan first has to grab Ohma to force ripple into him, something that will be difficult due to the Redirection Kata and Water Kata's that aid Ohma in deflecting people.

No he doesnt? Hamon can be sent through things and has an AOE, he doesnt need direct contact, he just needs the hamon to hit him in general, Jonathan is capable of channeling it through liquids, metals (see Bruford attacking Jonathan with the sword and Jonathan sending him into the sword to blow Bruford's arm off), rocks and cliffs, plants, wildlife, etc. Ohma can deflect Jonathan all he wants but if Jonathan decides to pump hamon through the ground Ohma best learn how avoid standing on the ground or the grass or something.

>Plus, all of this relies on Jonathan immediately going for the kill against a human and destroying Ohma's heart, something he would not do in character.

You're right in that Jonathan may not try and kill a 'Human but you're forgetting SBA states Jonathan is willing to kill and him stopping a heart has nothing to do with actively want to do that, it's a side effect of hamon itself, either Jonathan doesnt use his hamon or he does and heart failure comes packaged with that. Joseph sue as hell didnt want to kill Suzie Q and if he could magically just not have his hamon do that he would've, but he can't, because heart failure from hamon shock is simply something that will happen to those hit by a semi-serious hamon attack.

>This gives Ohma time to work with, and with his info analysis and enhanced senses, Ohma will likely figure out the Jonathan's powers are reliant on his breathing, meaning he will go for a throat strike against Jonathan like he did vs Sekibayashi and cut off his oxygen surprise and KO.

Slightly false, any hamon user can use hamon without being able to breathe, what breathing actually does is create hamon, if a hamon user cantbreathe they can still use the hamon leftover in their body and blood. Examples inlude Dire using hamon as a head or literally Jonathan himself using his leftover hamon to mindhax Wang after having his neck skewered.

And ko? Jonathan could stay conscious, move and even outpace an explosion not only after being asphyxiated but having his jugular cut in half, that's a ******* insane stamina feat, forget about not being able to breathe, Jonathan wasnt even getting proper blood flow and oxygen to the brain.


I'm not saying Jonathan would win but I don't like yor reasoning for why he wouldnt wi, it's flawed in several places and ignores context, the actual events that transpired, exposition and dialouge and even in a few cases, Jonathan's own feats.
 
SBA says willing to kill, but in character. Jonathan isn't going to just start melting people.

Also, the reason why the throat strike is a ko, is due to the specific waythat Ohma strikes, which has OHKO'd people stronger than Ohma

Also don't quote walls of text please, it clogs up the thread.
 
>SBA says willing to kill, but in character. Jonathan isn't going to just start melting people.

Nobody ever said he was gonna melt anyone, don't strawman. But you're absolutely mistaken if you think Jonathan isnt even going to use hamon, which is what the instant ko or organ failure is, it's not something he can choose not to do unless he decides to not even try in the first place.

>Also, the reason why the throat strike is a ko, is due to the specific waythat Ohma strikes, which has OHKO'd people stronger than Ohma

You do realize that the thing he did is literally what happened to Jonathan except Joathan had it worse. Ohma induces ko by cutting the brain off from its oxygen supply. Jonathan not only had his cut off but had massive bleed out as well. If anything you straight up confirmed Jonathan can remain conscious because the thing that is happening Jonathan has explicitly shown the ability to endure for a few minutes.

>Also don't quote walls of text please, it clogs up the thread.

Would you prefer I not specify exactly what I'm referring to?
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
Cuz Hamon ignores dura and melts inner organs and touching a hamon charged master is asking for trouble.
Click to expand...
Was referring to this but okay.

Getting hung by the neck is not the same as a direct strike to the throat. It's a much different set of mechanics and the above example OHKO'd a person who was stronger than Ohma.

You can avoid walls of text by quoting and using -snip- to refer what I'm talking about.
 
>Was referring to this but okay.

Well he's half-right, but also half-wrong. Hamon ignores durability and effects organs but it doesnt melt organs. Not unless you're ******* Kars. Hamon users like Joseph, Jonathan, Caesar, Messina, etc indude organ failure, they dont melt. But in his wording, if Jonathan is fully charged then yeah, touching him could prove fatal, it's like touching an electric fence, but that only really matters if Jonathan is fuly charged up.

>Getting hung by the neck is not the same as a direct strike to the throat. It's a much different set of mechanics and the above example OHKO'd a person who was stronger than Ohma.

Uh cool? I'm talking about Jonathan having his jugular and carotoids destroyed by the ripper eyes, not Dio wrapping around his neck. Not only would that of cut of the oxygen to Jonathan's brain (the method that Ohmo induces ko) but it's also coupled with massive bleed out, shock and blood failing to leave the brain, plus internal bleeding.

>You can avoid walls of text by quoting and using -snip- to refer what I'm talking about.

I dont know what snip means? I'm assuming only the exact specifc sentence?
 
Just clearing up some concerns with ripple from earlier.

Didn't that move after Dio landed a killing blow take like, all of Jonathan's willpower? Also, he was still conscious. Ohma's throat strike KO'd a guy who was Building level+ (He's like a stones throw aways from Large Building) in durability while Ohma himself was only building level in AP. That should tell the OHKO potential of the technique.

Chariot190 said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
You can do this by quoting and erasing the text and writing -snip-
 
>Didn't that move after Dio landed a killing blow take like, all of Jonathan's willpower? Also, he was still conscious.

All of his willpower? No. But it did take the remainder of his hamon stored in his blood as Jonathan was taken by surprise, he hadnt had even used any hamon in presumably weeks, he had none leftover except a tiny amount. Which isn't exactly an issue in this match, Jonathan is gonna be creating hamon the moment the match starts, if Jonathan is asphyxiated in this match, he'll have a lot more to fallback on then he did compared to the manga. Also Jonathan moved quite a bit after that, e managed to stay conscious, he went to attack Wang but got countered because he had little to no hamon, he then used hamon on wang but he also did things like outpacing an exlosion to protect Erina from debris and even stopped Dio from moving. Hamon warriors have innane stamina dude, just look at Dire or Will, both being able to stay conscious and use hamon despite heavy bodily destruction.

I'd like to point out as well that Jonathan is capable of healing wounds like that, a crushed trachea is within his ability to self-heal if he has hamon stored up, given he regenerated a broken neck (which probably includes the trachea as well anyway).

>Ohma's throat strike KO'd a guy who was Building level+ (He's like a stones throw aways from Large Building) in durability while Ohma himself was only building level in AP. That should tell the OHKO potential of the technique.

Uh no, you literally linked why it ko'd the dude, it had nothing with mitigating a powergap, it had to do with stoping oxygen flow to the brain by targeting an extremely vulnerable part of the body that's weaker then the rest, in which Jonathan can endure via feats and possibly even straight up heal. The ohko potential is 100% reliant on something Jonathan has showed the ability to endure.

Edit: Also apparently Jonathanis building level+ as well, which makes sense, in an interview he stated post-deep pass Jonathan is equal with post-training Dio.
 
Here's the guy he KO'd Sekibayashi Ju. He's noted as having some of the most crazy durability and endurance in the show. He notes that the few attacks that he isn't willing to take head on are attacks to the eyes and groin and dangerous throws. Even his neck is a free space, since the muscles there are thick enough that building level guys break their hands when striking there. Ohma broke his arm in that strike, but he still OHKO'd him. Ohma, the building level guy, OHKO'd a building level+, nearly large building level with this move. Don't see why a building+ Ohma, who can amp himself higher, can't do the same here.

And it's a notable weakness of hamon users that their breathing is vital to using their abilities properly. This a major plot point in part 1-2. Regen can only help him so much.
 
You're joking right? You have literally posted a scan explaining why the attack in question ohko'd Jun. He ko'd Jun via crushig his trachea, stoping his breathing and asphyxiating him via stoping the oxygen flow to the brain. Which is something that won't ko Jonathan because Jonathan has literally went through the same thing but drastically worse. He can't do the same here because the REASON WHY he ko'd that dude is something Jnathan himself can endure. Cuttig off Jonathan's oxygen flow to the brain won't knock him out, that's why it wont work, because the method is something Jonathan straight up has feats for.

You are effectively saying Ohma can ko Jonathan via a method that Jonathan has explicitely been seen enduring for several minutes at a time. And that's not withstanding other Hamon users like Dire who can stay conscious through even worse. And the worst part? The thing Jonathan endured is vastly above what Ohma is doing, Jonathan should of dropped dead on the spot, for like ten different easons.

>And it's a notable weakness of hamon users that their breathing is vital to using their abilities properly. This a major plot point in part 1-2. Regen can only help him so much. '

Half truth, breathing is vital in creating hamon, not using it. If the hamon user in question has hamon stored in the blood they can use that even if they literally dont even have lungs. It's just that once that stored hamon is gone then they're screwed but the only time that eveer became an issue was when the lungs were ripped out of the target. Unless Ohma is gonna be rippig out his lungs Jonathan can easily heal a crushed trachea with stored hamon given he can heal a broken neck which is worse. And as stated, Jonathan is gonna have more than enough hamon stored in his blood by the time and if that happens in this match, so yes, the healing will help here. And by that point Jonathan aint gonna be entering cqc, not withstanding the fact that if Jonathan is serious he's basically a walking electric fence.
 
Keep in mind that Sekibayashi has some crazy stamina as well. his training schedule looked like this as a rookie, and it got even crazier later on. Plus, he was capable of handling number attacks to the back of his head can could even get back up after his heart was damaged by an attack. Even if the throat strike doesn't keep Jonathan down for long or OHKO, it's still gonna do some major damage and mess his breathing and hamon production, considering what it did to a tank like Seki. This is something that Ohma will notice with his enhanced senses and will capitalize on it.

Jonathan may try to get some range to heal up and use ranged hamon, but he simply won't get the chance since Ohma will being using Fire Kata to boost his speed and create after images (something that's let him blitz people as fast as him or even faster). From there, he's probably gonna use similar tactics as those used in his fight against Raian where he spent the majority of the fight wearing out Raian's neck. There's also his stat amps with possessing spirit and adamantine kata. The latter has a technique that hardens his fingers to stab at vitals (which wasn't used when he attacked Seki, so imagine it being used now). The former boosts all his stats from 2x -4x, and lets him quickly overwhelm people comparable to his base. He can also use this boost along with his Fire and Adamantine Kata for more stat amping. Ohma is also a highly pragmatic fighter, kickoff going for eye gouges and nut shots is in character for him if he wants to end the fight quickly.

There's also Chi Blockage, which suppresses the autonomic nervous system and can destroy nerves and potentially cause memory erasure. This is another move Ohma can use to end a fight quickly if he's pressured.

So with throat strikes messing with Jonathan's breathing, along with Ohma using his skill + stat amps + chi blockage to keep up the pressure and prevent Jonathan from gaining his bearing and breathing, Ohma can eventually wear down Jonathan or incap him.
 
You are grossly exaggerating that stamina, it isnt even remotely comparable to hamon user's stamina. Jonathan could survive for several minutes with bisected jugulars, Dire could briefly survive as literally just a head (and only died as fast as he did because his head froze over and shattered), Will could survive a few minutes literally cut in half and after giving up his life energy and that traning doesnt even look much worse than the training Lisa Lisa put Joseph through. And I'd like you to remember, in the manga (as it was trimmed from the anime adaption) Jonathan also went through extensive training under Will for several weeks similiar to what Joseph went through. Heart damage isnt the same as stright up organ failure and shock. One is damage, one is essentially organ death. I'm sure it would damage Jonathan, but you're exagerating how much. And mess up his breathing? Hamon users can literally change their breathing after taking damage to mitigate the effect it'd have on their hamon and once again, Jonathan can heal such damage. Hamon production is somewhat moot, Hamon stored in the body or already created is free game, some of which can be used to heal and circumvent the point you've been trying to push for awhile now. He has enhanced senses yes, but all that would do is tell him that Jonathan is breathing, which I mean? Yeah no shit? Not exactly something you need enhanced senses for, it aint gonna tell him that Jonathan is creating energy via his breathing nor would it tell him his capabilities or what it can do and how to stop it. Not to mention Jonathan is always hamon breathing when faced with a threat, Ohma aint gonna be able to tell Jonathan is breathing in a specific way if that's the only way Jonathan breathes in. Ohma has no reason to intially aim for his neck opposed to elsewhere essentially.


>Jonathan may try to get some range to heal up and use ranged hamon, but he simply won't get the chance since Ohma will being using Fire Kata to boost his speed and create after images (something that's let him blitz people as fast as him or even faster).

You're mistaken in thinking he needs to get range to heal up, he doesn't. He can heal himself at will as long as he has the hamon. Creating afterimages aint anything new, Jonathan's fought and has experience with people capable of creating afterimages and blitzing him.

>From there, he's probably gonna use similar tactics as those used in his fight against Raian where he spent the majority of the fight wearing out Raian's neck. There's also his stat amps with possessing spirit and adamantine kata. The latter has a technique that hardens his fingers to stab at vitals (which wasn't used when he attacked Seki, so imagine it being used now).

That's implying that Jonathan isnt charged with Hamon, because while Tactical was wrong on hamon melting organs, he wasnt wrong on the front that if Jonathan is hamon charged touching him is tandamount to suicide if Jonathan is serious. Stats amps are nice (although that's nothing hamon cant do, given that's basically all hamon is, hell amateur Hamon can harden ******* hair and sphagetti to bullet proof levels).

>The former boosts all his stats from 2x -4x, and lets him quickly overwhelm people comparable to his base.

Then why isnt he listed as High 8-C with amps then? The profile says higher, but not large building, which leads me to believe it's a less than 2x boost unless his base is less than 1ton?

>He can also use this boost along with his Fire and Adamantine Kata for more stat amping. Ohma is also a highly pragmatic fighter, kickoff going for eye gouges and nut shots is in character for him if he wants to end the fight quickly.

Stat amps are nice. Jonathan literally has experience with opponents going to gouge his eyes, and I'm pretty sure Jonathan has the stamina to shrug off a kick to the dick, it aint gonna be more painful then some of the other shit he's endured and in some cases literally didnt even react to, like having his arms and ribs crushed to dust, neck shattered, jugulars bisected, etc/

>There's also Chi Blockage, which suppresses the autonomic nervous system and can destroy nerves and potentially cause memory erasure. This is another move Ohma can use to end a fight quickly if he's pressured.

That's actually the most troubling thing Ohma has, but at the same time, it's effectively the same as Hamon mindhax, (well it aint similiar but both opponents have mindhax that can likely end the fight in one hit). And you say whe he's pressured? But given in your own wording, with his stat amps, why would he be pressured? This leads me to believe that this simply is a moot point, Jonathan's win conditions are things that are one and done, Ohma will never feel pressured because he's either overwheling physically or he's getting one shot by some arbitrary hamon status effect.

>So with throat strikes messing with Jonathan's breathing, along with Ohma using his skill + stat amps + chi blockage to keep up the pressure and prevent Jonathan from gaining his bearing and breathing, Ohma can eventually wear down Jonathan or incap him.

You don't listen do you? Like actually, you can keep saying that but it doesnt make you right. Going for Jonathan's neck is pointless in this match, Jonathan has endured worse, so much worse that what Ohma can do to his neck is laughable in comparison and that's not withstanding Jonathan can heal the damage instantly as long as he has enough hamon stored. Ohma probably does outskill I'll give you that. Stat amps are iffy, hamon can amplify Jonathan's strength and durability as well, not speed though so I'll give you speed amps. Chi blockage is something I'll doubt he'd use right away given you yourself said when pressured, unless you feel like backpedaling?

Now for things you've yet to factor in or are ignoring, the fact that Jonathan literally only has to land one blow on him or hit him with one hamon blast to induce unconscious or organ failure. The starting distance (at least several meters) being more than enough for Jonathan to breathe a few times and store up and create some hamon, possibly even supercharge himself to make direct contact lethal. Ohma's stat amping actually being somewhat detrimental as that'll force Jonathan into playing his hand like mindhax early given we know that Jonathan uses it when given the chance and it's optimal or landing a killing blow isnt an option. Jonathan not needing direct contact, only his hamon does in which it can be channled through many things (hell the fact that SBA is central park is actually probably a benefit given all the grass and hamon conductable materials that are all over the ground). Ohma not initially knowing to aim for the neck, yes he does have analysis manip but it's not gonna tell him what hamon is and all of its applications right away, especially given he hasnt encounted anything like it.


Once again, I'm not saying Jonathan would win but damn is some of your reasoning essentially ignoring a shit ton of context and even blatant feats.
 
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