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Tokita Ohma vs Baki Hanma

Btw Kengan is going through revisions rn. Base Restricted Ohma is gonna be either 9-A+ and 8-C with Advance or something along those lines.
 
Not anymore, at least not for 9-A. Ohma has big advantage at AP, what can he do about that? Not to mention most of his attacks can be redirected or nullified by Niko Style. He has analysis too so he can use precog.
 
The prep would be useless for Baki, and I'm not sure if it would do anything for this key of Ohma, as he's still a hot head that relies mainly on instinct and his own natural abilities. Restricted Ohma also has big weaknesses in that he's too reliant on two styles (can't remember which ones) and neglects the other two. Since this is Maximum to NGB Baki he'll have things like Endorphins for a durability and pain resistance amp, as well as many moves that temporarily amp him in other stats, like Goutaijutsu and strength, or Hand Pocket and speed. I'm not sure how much PS amps Ohma, but the 3-4x DB (or less, as I believe that's the multiplier for Complete DB and this one would be Imperfect) should come in handy. Baki's lifting strength is better, so if it comes down to ground game or grappling, Baki takes it right there short of any PIS, but as for a striking fight, Info analysis and Analytical Predictions make me think at first glance that Ohma has this in the bag, but on top of Ohma slightly rash and berserk nature, Baki has moves like Aiki to help with Redirection Kata (over which Baki would be much better at reflecting attacks), and Benda is still a back-pocket trump card. Also, so long as speed and strength are comparable, Analytical Prediction shouldn't be a problem, although Information Analysis may be Baki's downfall if the fight drags on. All in all, I'd have to give this one to Baki with high difficulty. He's just more versatile and has certain advantages in combat experience, techniques, and showings of skill than Ohma SPOILERS FOR THE END OF KENGAN ASURA BELOW


ever got the chance to show.
 
I feel like in general Aiki is solid against most conventional moves, but Redirection Kata pretty much ties with it. I don't think one or the other is better honestly. Benda I'm not sure since Ohma himself might be able to deflect that, and well most of their attacks would be redirecting each other.

Grappling might be also advantageous initially to Baki but that means both have to get into a grappling stance on the first place which is hard at what they're doing.

I'm sure both are pragmatic enough for cheap shots, but to counter Benda Ohma does have that throat striking attack.

Nothing really to add as from first glance it seems like a tie, but DB does also increase speed and on the long term AP would help out Ohma as you say. I would've voted tie but the long term effect is advantegeous to Ohma and worst comes to worst, if he's doing as bad as he did in Kengan he might recall previous techniques like Water Kata for grappling, or worst comes to worst Demonsbane which is really quite the nifty perfect counter.
 
Sorry, I found which katas Ohma is weak in in his restricted key: Water and Adamantine, meaning he's gets annihilated in grappling (but I don't think the fight will likely come to grappling) and Ohma's strength and durability amps are less than desirable, but he can clash Aiki with Redirection (I was under the wrong assumption that it was Water and Redirection, not Water and Adamantine), so Aiki shouldn't be a problem.

So basically, Aiki=Redirection, Fire makes Ohma's footwork and movement better than Baki's, a weaker Adamantine Style likely puts Baki ahead in striking and durability, a weaker Water gives all potential grappling engagements to Baki.

https://kenganverse.fandom.com/wiki/Tokita_Ohma

His kata strengths are under Powers and Abilities (this only applies for the Restricted Ohma key)
 
Aiki should be undesirable to use against Ohma, as the Redirection users are able to defend against Redirection, and any kata if you know Niko Style really, as shown by Kiryu. Restricted Ohma isn't going to grapple, he never did, and endorphins can be countered with Advance. His eyesight alongside prediction can make him dodge his attacks.
 
Honestly that tier page needs some adjustment. Gonna get into that soon. And true on grappling. Yeah it'll be quite close.

Oh thanks, gonna be helpful for later. Not so sure on the whole Adamantine Style being enough to lower Ohma's striking force, I think it's a lot closer honestly.


It's more on the thought that when he's gotten desperate in the fight with Raian, he started to remember some of his old techniques. Fair enough though
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Aiki should be undesirable to use against Ohma, as the Redirection users are able to defend against Redirection, and any kata if you know Niko Style really, as shown by Kiryu. Restricted Ohma isn't going to grapple, he never did, and endorphins can be countered with Advance. His eyesight alongside prediction can make him dodge his attacks.
Click to expand...
What's the boost for PS (Possessing Spirit)? Can it's amp compensate for Demon Back AND Endorphins?
 
How good are both of those amps again?

At the bare minimum, PS (At least if I'm right this is Advance, slight migraine still recovering) basically turned Ohma from being stomped into the one doing the stomping. Ironbreaker I gotta check through cause I'm kinda going through the manga right now for some major revisions. well minor really
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
How good are both of those amps again?
At the bare minimum, PS (At least if I'm right this is Advance, slight migraine still recovering) basically turned Ohma from being stomped into the one doing the stomping. Ironbreaker I gotta check through cause I'm kinda going through the manga right now for some major revisions. well minor really
Click to expand...
Endorphins is pretty minor if I remember correctly, I'll try to find something more concrete. Demon Back in its complete form provides a 3-4x boost, so this Baki's DB is like a 2x multiplier
 
As of the maximum tournament Baki can't willingly bring out DB either. It's only pushed out of him when he's brought to the edge. Incomplete made him "At least" twice as strong according to Retsu and the complete is much stronger. With his complete demon back he managed to blitz and strangle out Jack despite being in a near death state. It's honestly much more than a 4x increase but it's hard to give accurate values.
 
So if Baki is at any point back into a corner, Incomplete Demon Back at least doubles his stats, and at Baki's absolute limit, his stats are again doubled. Can Ohma handle that on top of minor Endorphins buffs and all the plethora of Baki's moves?
 
Ohma's moveset also gives him some boosts.

Flame Kata gives him a speed boost to make enemies on equal or greater speed than him make it seem as though they punch through him.

Adamntine Kata boosts his striking strength and durability

Water kata helps disperse energy

Plus, it should be noted that Advance boosts his stats by at least 2x, and Posessing Spirit amps him to at least 3.33 to 4x higher.

The down side is that once he hits PS he can't use the Niko Style. Buts he's shown that he can still use Redirection and Water katas while using the Advance. At least in this key.
 
So with that in mind, if he actually does back Baki to his absolute limit, it will be Baki at 4x vs Ohma at 4x, but Baki can access all of his abilities, and Ohma is without Niko Style. Even with IDB and Advance, Ohma would be giving up half of his arsenal.

Seems like a good fight, but Baki seems to definitively take this one
 
Is that accounting for the initial AP gap? I know that Baki Small Building level was when he was weaker, but Ohma's Small Building level+ was preformed when he was weaker as well, and was a stones throw away from Building level.

He was stronger by the time he fight Raian, and that 4x boost is "at least." He could possibly draw out more power with PS, but that was all he could handle at the time due to previous damage from the technique and damage from his fight.
 
Amping higher isn't going to help if he has to sacrifice his entire kit, because now Baki as Aiki which Ohma doesn't have an answer for, as well as all of Baki's amping moves, as Ohma can no longer amp his moves with Adamantine.


I'll try to find this Baki's initial AP, but I don't remember the gap being of consequence EDIT: Nvm, found it. His at least 9-A is given to him via his scaling to Spec. This Baki>=NGB Hanayama>Spec=0.02 tons
 
Ohma has shown that he can still use Water and Redirection Kata with the Advance, so on top of getting an amp he can still use some of his tool kit, and it happens to be the two that help counter Aiki (Redirection) and helps him grapple and use soft techniques (Water).

Plus, Ohma doesn't turn into a complete meathead when using the Advance. He still likes to go for joint breaks and immediate KO's via striking the throat to cut off an opponents airflow. So on top of having a definite and controlled multiplier compared to NGB Baki's ambiguous and uncontrollable one, he can still use his skill to an extent.

Ohma scales above 0.14 tons since he performed the Ironbreaker feat bu subconsciously and before he started training with his restraints off.
 
PTSOXMONKEY99 said:
Ohma has shown that he can still use Water and Redirection Kata with the Advance, so on top of getting an amp he can still use some of his tool kit, and it happens to be the two that help counter Aiki (Redirection) and helps him grapple and use soft techniques (Water).
Plus, Ohma doesn't turn into a complete meathead when using the Advance. He still likes to go for joint breaks and immediate KO's via striking the throat to cut off an opponents airflow. So on top of having a definite and controlled multiplier compared to NGB Baki's ambiguous and uncontrollable one, he can still use his skill to an extent.

Ohma scales above 0.14 tons since he performed the Ironbreaker feat bu subconsciously and before he started training with his restraints off.
Click to expand...
But the problem would be that Ohma's kit gets cut in half just for 2x boost, and he loses his entire kit for a +4x boost. Even in Advance he's liable to get entirely outskilled, as he doesn't have any feats to imply he could counter an Aiki on the level of users like Shibukawa, Baki, or Yujiro, and he just fall at out loses all grapples due to the massive lifting class difference. He has now lost all of his stat amps (Flame being speed, Adamantine being strength and durability), and he can only maybe counter Aiki

The amp is is definite, but it only appears when Baki is on the brink of losing, which shouldn't be long for reasons I will address. Also, Baki is still at 100% in terms of skill and thought process, whereas Ohma can't even use half of his katas and while he shows that he's still in a decent state of mind via going for opponents's weak spots, that isn't exactly the prowess he has in thought and strategy without Advance, he's a lot more berserk which could make him easier to read.

If he scales to above 7x Baki without his amps, while I doubt a oneshot due to the level of skill at play with both combatants, Baki is going to rack up damage like crazy, meaning both fighters would have to resort to amps sooner (Baki starts clashing his base form while in Incomplete Demon Back, and can still negate durability, win all grapples, and has several amps to help him get the edge, so Ohma amps and starts getting outskilled, and if he amps to PS, the match is decided right there.) The more Ohma amps, the bigger the gap in skill between Ohma and Baki. Baki has shown to be able to combat people immensely stronger than him Time and time again, so Ohma's biggest advantage won't amount to much here.
 
Honestly, base to base, I'd personally give it to Ohma like 8/10. It's just because Ohma's arsenal gets smaller as he amps, and due to to his being waaay stronger, Baki's gunna get his "almost dead" amps quite quickly
 
With further arguments by Baki, it looks Baki has more chance here than I thought. But, for the demon back, Ohma can use attacks that are instant knockouts, like throat strike. He has high possibility of doing it when in corner but Baki also is stronger as the fight goes on. Overall, I think this is incon. They are super close.
 
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