Toji aca 4 possible drop

[Rolgoat]

It seems that the fundamental factors behind Toji's possession of Aca4 are as follows:

First, let's explain the technique; it operates like a simple domain. It brings the opponent into the technique's space, and the person exposed to the technique comes under the control of the spirit in the technique. The spirit then asks them the question "Am I beautiful?"

• For a "no" answer, it results in death according to the fate depicted in the photographs.
• For a "yes" answer, it allows the person to remain in the space until the technique is canceled.
• Toji, by saying "You're not my type," rejects the soul and then cancels the technique, breaking the chains of destiny according to the information available.

Here, destiny is not absolute fate. Considering the underlying structure and foundations of the technique, there are specific outcomes based on certain answers, and these outcomes are irrefutable. However, Toji's rejection and the breaking of chains known to Geto do not make Toji Aca4. This cannot happen.
Conexts:

 

[Mizuki67]

Yeah agree with this idk why this is even added to his profile

 

[SunDaGamer]

First, let's explain the technique; it operates like a simple domain. It brings the opponent into the technique's space, and the person exposed to the technique comes under the control of the spirit in the technique. The spirit then asks them the question "Am I beautiful?"

Toji encounter with Kuchisake-Onna isn't why he has Acausality. He has it because he prevented Tengen's merger by killing the Star Plasma Vessel and almost merking the inheritor of the Six Eyes, with Tengen stated the 3 are linked by fate and that Kenjaku doing the same thing Toji did 500 years ago failed to stop the merger because he wasn't an anamoly that broke free of cursed energy like Toji.

 

[Duedate8898]

I don't know why you're citing Toji's fight with a Cursed Spirit as proof he doesn't have Type 4 Accausality. That innate domain that Toji battles against isn't one based on manipulating fate, so it isn't really a counter to him having Type 4 Accausality. You even show the explicit scans which outline the fact that because he's broken out of cursed energy, he was able to interrupt the fates of those bound by it.

I think that is the definition of Type 4 accausality. He's not operating under the same system of fate as the majority of his setting.

 

[ImmortalDread]

And why is fate is interpreted as causality for you? Because we don't equate this by default in this community.

As far as I see, he is still bounded by causality like anyone else.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Being outside fate gives you Aca Type 4. Castlevania and GoW are a good exemplo iirc

Yeah, It stays

 

[ImmortalDread]

Being outside of fate gives you at maximum resistance to fate manipulation. I don't see why causality should be assumed by default to be included.

We specifically are talking about cause and effect relationship, Toji never displayed any feat to be outside of it (or operate on a complete different one than regular one; and I don't think anyone else has ever done it in the series).

No need to give me some whataboutism argument if you don't mind. I am talking about this case.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Being outside of fate gives you at maximum resistance to fate manipulation

I don't trust you
You can have aca type 4 with simple shit like being outside time and space, laws, fate and such. The type 4 is the generic aca for this kind of thing
Ima go with Duedate

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am not asking you to trust me, also what is this type of counterargument? I am asking where in fact is this stated in the official page itself.

Since as far as the page concerns, it specifically stated that the character requires to operate on a different causality system than regular one. We don't default fate with causality system, we don't default time with causality system.

As far as I see (read and watched the series) he is nowhere operating on any different causality system. He is literally in the same causality system as us.

 

[Duedate8898]

And why is fate is interpreted as causality for you? Because we don't equate this by default in this community.

As far as I see, he is still bounded by causality like anyone else.

I interpret fate as causality because the very nature of fate is that it is a form in which causality takes. While the manipulation of fate and causality are two separate things here on the wiki, that doesn't mean they don't inhabit the same space. Fate is the result of causality by all means. That said, Type 4 acausality doesn't mean you're not bound by causality, that's Type 5. Type 4 is when your system of causality differs than that of the norm. Within JJK, cursed energy is a system of causality, Tengen states so hierelf in the given scans in both the Op and on Toji's profile. The six eyes user is to defeat kenjaku, the star plasma vessel is to be absorbed by Tengen, Tengen is to revert back and not ascend to the point of a cursed spirit. These are fated to occur in JJK. And in the given scans, because Toji does not follow the norms of Cursed Energy which binds all of these people together, he's able to change these fated events.

I would figure that's one of the most clear cut feats/statements we could get for a character being acausal

 

[Duedate8898]

I don't trust you
You can have aca type 4 with simple shit like being outside time and space, laws, fate and such. The type 4 is the generic aca for this kind of thing
Ima go with Duedate

This is a bit of a warning for you, coming off heated and rude right here. You can disagree with Dread but this is not the way to do so.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Where I was rude? Just said that I don't trust her

 

[Duedate8898]

It's because you're making this a matter of trust when what's going on here is more a difference in opinion. It gives off the vibe that you're assuming a bias on Dread's part that makes Dread untrustworthy instead of you disagreeing with dread's disagreement and asking for further proof. That's what makes it rude as far as I see it.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm not gonna vote, but yeah, fate is a part of cause and effect system

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

It's because you're making this a matter of trust when what's going on here is more a difference in opinion. It gives off the vibe that you're assuming a bias on Dread's part that makes Dread untrustworthy instead of you disagreeing with dread's disagreement and asking for further proof. That's what makes it rude as far as I see it.

I just said that I don't think that Dread is right about the standarts
Anyway, watherver
Leaving

 

[PhantomØ4]

It's because you're making this a matter of trust when what's going on here is more a difference in opinion. It gives off the vibe that you're assuming a bias on Dread's part that makes Dread untrustworthy instead of you disagreeing with dread's disagreement and asking for further proof. That's what makes it rude as far as I see it.

Satements like those made in such instance are a matter of trust of judgement no? He is simply saying he trusts your rationale over Dread's in the matter, it is very easy to rationalize if you read the whole post. Do we really need to hyper-verbose everything to not come as informal and possibly confrontational?

 

[Arkenis]

Toji's reasoning is due to him being an anomaly within JJK, he had escaped Cursed Energy, an energy which seemingly is able to tie people together across history as it does for the SPV, Tengen, and Six Eyes putting them within a shared destiny. This is why Tengen brings up how on top of HR, he escaped Cursed Energy.
Being outside the control of Cursed Energy is what makes him type 4 basically, while everyone else is within it.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

yeah as finicky as fate is in JJK I gotta agree with Duedate here, by being outside the flow of these things by default toji does qualify for Acausality type 4, but I mean it is literally the white bread of Acausality that just provides some resistances here and there.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

It's discount store acausality but qualifies at any rate. Toji is like Tengen explained, an anomaly. He was the proverbial spanner in the works of causality. Most likely, the only man that could trigger the new course to history in the way that he did.

 

[PrinceofPein]

ACA 4 is operating outside a different cause and effect system. I am not seeing that in JJK, I agree with the thread

 

[ImmortalDread]

I interpret fate as causality because the very nature of fate is that it is a form in which causality takes. While the manipulation of fate and causality are two separate things here on the wiki, that doesn't mean they don't inhabit the same space. Fate is the result of causality by all means. That said, Type 4 acausality doesn't mean you're not bound by causality, that's Type 5. Type 4 is when your system of causality differs than that of the norm. Within JJK, cursed energy is a system of causality, Tengen states so hierelf in the given scans in both the Op and on Toji's profile. The six eyes user is to defeat kenjaku, the star plasma vessel is to be absorbed by Tengen, Tengen is to revert back and not ascend to the point of a cursed spirit. These are fated to occur in JJK. And in the given scans, because Toji does not follow the norms of Cursed Energy which binds all of these people together, he's able to change these fated events.

I would figure that's one of the most clear cut feats/statements we could get for a character being acausal

I will attempt to concisely summarize my position. I'm not in agreement, as I believe, outside of the JJK context, this nature/ability is pointless.

I assume that we hold distinct interpretations of the term "causality systems." It appears that you associate fate with causality, asserting that everyone is inevitably bound to follow their destinies, with Toji being the exception due to his abnormality. While I don't necessarily oppose this perspective, my objection lies in the act of equating a subset attribute with a set attribute. Allow me to elaborate on this point.

The Fate system encompasses a causality system. However, when assessing whether the character in question operates explicitly on a different system than the regular one (bearing in mind the comparison between our everyday causality system and the unique one presented on the page), it becomes apparent that he is still functioning within the regular system. This is an undeniable fact, as evidenced by his movement from point A to point B, which indicates that he remains bound by the same regular causality system as everyone else. Causality, in this context, refers to the influence by which one event, process, state, or object (a cause) contributes to the production of another event, process, state, or object (an effect). The cause is partially responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause. This law applies to everyone since it is a traditional causality.

Your point highlights that the character is not constrained by the general flow of cursed energy; he is abnormal, a fact with which I agree. However, I disagree with equating this abnormality to the causality system, as cursed energy is specifically related to EUS. Given his abnormality, the conventional destinies should not significantly impact him.

While this debate may involve some semantics, it is crucial to address, since our ultimate conclusions regarding whether he attains acasuality type 4 depend on this aspect.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Everything12 @Theglassman12 are both experts on acausality type 4 and type 5. Mind giving your opinion on this debate?

 

[Quantu]

I will attempt to concisely summarize my position. I'm not in agreement, as I believe, outside of the JJK context, this nature/ability is pointless.

I assume that we hold distinct interpretations of the term "causality systems." It appears that you associate fate with causality, asserting that everyone is inevitably bound to follow their destinies, with Toji being the exception due to his abnormality. While I don't necessarily oppose this perspective, my objection lies in the act of equating a subset attribute with a set attribute. Allow me to elaborate on this point.

The Fate system encompasses a causality system. However, when assessing whether the character in question operates explicitly on a different system than the regular one (bearing in mind the comparison between our everyday causality system and the unique one presented on the page), it becomes apparent that he is still functioning within the regular system. This is an undeniable fact, as evidenced by his movement from point A to point B, which indicates that he remains bound by the same regular causality system as everyone else. Causality, in this context, refers to the influence by which one event, process, state, or object (a cause) contributes to the production of another event, process, state, or object (an effect). The cause is partially responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause. This law applies to everyone since it is a traditional causality.

Your point highlights that the character is not constrained by the general flow of cursed energy; he is abnormal, a fact with which I agree. However, I disagree with equating this abnormality to the causality system, as cursed energy is specifically related to EUS. Given his abnormality, the conventional destinies should not significantly impact him.

While this debate may involve some semantics, it is crucial to address, since our ultimate conclusions regarding whether he attains acasuality type 4 depend on this aspect.

TLDR without GTP?

Why doesn't this qualify

 

[ImmortalDread]

Because he is still bounded by regular traditional causality system like anyone else. Are we talking about the same causality system that is highlighted in the page?

I am specifically talking about this, and the page does the same. And operating in a different one will give you resistance to causality manipulation (and other related abilities depends on the context), which means, you are not bounded by this chain:

 

[Quantu]

In verse he is "free" from curse energy which seemingly links fated events together. It doesn't have to be transcendent or anything, just different and irregular from the regular which he is, in verse.

 

[Benimōru]

Agree FRA

 

[Magicomethkuon]

ACA 4 is operating outside a different cause and effect system. I am not seeing that in JJK, I agree with the thread

Toji has an existence that operates freely from a chain of events that the world of JJK is bound by, even its strongest entities' actions can't change those predetermined events and they just correct themselves. It's most certainly a chain of cause and effect that can't be escaped at play.

Toji wasn't aware of this or even trying to break the chains of destiny. Because he intervened at all, his actions caused a new course to history that was impossible before. And Tengen atributes this to him being an abnormality that escaped cursed energy, fate and the destinies that connect them all. We can't expect the work to state verbatim that Acausality type 4 is happening.

Because he is still bounded by regular traditional causality system like anyone else. Are we talking about the same causality system that is highlighted in the page?

I am specifically talking about this, and the page does the same. And operating in a different one will give you resistance to causality manipulation (and other related abilities depends on the context), which means, you are not bounded by this chain:

I think the definition that is being used here would qualify a character for type 5 Acausality instead (generally unbound to causality), which Toji indeed doesn't have. He operates abnormal to the scope of all Cursed Energy causality. One could argue that this wouldn't grant him many resistances depending on what other system of causality he's operating under, but Toji certainly doesn't operate under the regular flow of things. The plot would never have happened if he did.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The definition is for both types. You are not bounded by a regular traditional causality (is this an error in my language, I suppose?) means that you are:

1. Either operating in a different one | Type 4
2. Or being completely outside of the system itself | Type 5

I'm specifically referring to the initial point. The second image aims to depict that you're not confined to the conventional causal system. I'm not suggesting complete detachment from it, but rather questioning if Toji operates within a distinct system. However, he doesn't; he functions within the same system as the rest of us in real life, just like anyone else in the series.

Cursed Energy doesn't adhere strictly to a causality system. I don't see it as a linear chain of cause and effect, as you've portrayed it, but more as a sequence of interconnected events. It's not a matter of disagreement; I concur that he exhibits abnormal characteristics than others in the series, but not specifically this explicit system.

 

[Sparx_gaming]

Disagree as being outside of regular acausality system

 

[Rolgoat]

Riko is a star plasma carrier for Tengen. It has no connection with Toji. What is written in destiny is that the bearer changes at certain intervals and all bearers give their tengene lives. This has nothing to do with toji destroying aca4, or star plasma. Destroying the place where the union will take place is also irrelevant to acasuality.

Toji encounter with Kuchisake-Onna isn't why he has Acausality. He has it because he prevented Tengen's merger by killing the Star Plasma Vessel and almost merking the inheritor of the Six Eyes, with Tengen stated the 3 are linked by fate and that Kenjaku doing the same thing Toji did 500 years ago failed to stop the merger because he wasn't an anamoly that broke free of cursed energy like Toji.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Here's an analogy, say that Causality is a color. If the regular flow would be blue, Toji is red. While he is still bound to causality he is in a different flow so things that impact Blue have no hold on him and his actions can disrupt its course. This does not mean that he is free from color (Causality) as a whole. Just that doing things that control the scope of the regular branch won't impact him.

This of course does not make him exempt of the other, more general aspects of causality that still encompass what he is bound by.

Toji still being subject to real life laws of causality does not change the fact that he is abnormal and exempt of the other supernatural laws of causality that govern the flow of JJK's history. Tengen mentions verbatim that fate binds them and that Toji is an abnormality. One that broke that flow for everyone when he took action.

If Toji had type 5, say that causality is a color, he would be a wall. To say, something that does not adhere to any system. Of course a type 4 character will still respect some regards of causality. But Toji clearly is described as an existence that does not follow some of the principles of history and fate of the world of JJK because on top of HR he had escaped the binds of CE bringing the fates of others together.

 

[Rolgoat]

And why is fate is interpreted as causality for you? Because we don't equate this by default in this community.

As far as I see, he is still bounded by causality like anyone else.

It's interpreted this way on the profile and I think it's wrong

 

[Rolgoat]

"There is no evidence that the fate mentioned by Geto and Tengen is absolute fate. Contrary claims must prove the existence of absolute fate; otherwise, it can be explained solely by resistance to cursed energy (otherwise, it should be considered a metaphor)."

I don't know why you're citing Toji's fight with a Cursed Spirit as proof he doesn't have Type 4 Accausality. That innate domain that Toji battles against isn't one based on manipulating fate, so it isn't really a counter to him having Type 4 Accausality. You even show the explicit scans which outline the fact that because he's broken out of cursed energy, he was able to interrupt the fates of those bound by it.

I think that is the definition of Type 4 accausality. He's not operating under the same system of fate as the majority of his setting.

 

[Rolgoat]

Being outside fate gives you Aca Type 4. Castlevania and GoW are a good exemplo iirc

Yeah, It stays

No, this is fate manip resistance and there is no such situation in Toji. (It was only a metaphor)

 

[Rolgoat]

Here's an analogy, say that Causality is a color. If the regular flow would be blue, Toji is red. While he is still bound to causality he is in a different flow so things that impact Blue have no hold on him and his actions can disrupt its course. This does not mean that he is free from color (Causality) as a whole. Just that doing things that control the scope of the regular branch won't impact him.

This of course does not make him exempt of the other, more general aspects of causality that still encompass what he is bound by.

Toji still being subject to real life laws of causality does not change the fact that he is abnormal and exempt of the other supernatural laws of causality that govern the flow of JJK's history. Tengen mentions verbatim that fate binds them and that Toji is an abnormality. One that broke that flow for everyone when he took action.

If Toji had type 5, say that causality is a color, he would be a wall. To say, something that does not adhere to any system. Of course a type 4 character will still respect some regards of causality. But Toji clearly is described as an existence that does not follow some of the principles of history and fate of the world of JJK because on top of HR he had escaped the binds of CE bringing the fates of others together.

In answer to this, if we consider blue as a poison and the person affected by the poison becomes dizzy, if red is resistant to this poison, he will not be affected by the causes and consequences of blue, right? But since the answer changes depending on what we call blue here, if there is no definitive proof that Destiny is absolute, other claims will be headcanon.

 

[Rolgoat]

I interpret fate as causality because the very nature of fate is that it is a form in which causality takes. While the manipulation of fate and causality are two separate things here on the wiki, that doesn't mean they don't inhabit the same space. Fate is the result of causality by all means. That said, Type 4 acausality doesn't mean you're not bound by causality, that's Type 5. Type 4 is when your system of causality differs than that of the norm. Within JJK, cursed energy is a system of causality, Tengen states so hierelf in the given scans in both the Op and on Toji's profile. The six eyes user is to defeat kenjaku, the star plasma vessel is to be absorbed by Tengen, Tengen is to revert back and not ascend to the point of a cursed spirit. These are fated to occur in JJK. And in the given scans, because Toji does not follow the norms of Cursed Energy which binds all of these people together, he's able to change these fated events.

I would figure that's one of the most clear cut feats/statements we could get for a character being acausal

"Acasuality Type 4: The ability to reject cause-and-effect situations and, additionally, grants resistance to acausal manipulation and fate manipulation. Toji's situation can only be explained as resistant to cursed energy and techniques. Therefore, definitively labeling Toji as Acausal Type 4 would be incorrect unless there is clear evidence of a specific fate. Being Acausal Type 4 implies rejecting cause and effect and providing resistance to acausal/fate manipulation. However, if someone is resistant to acausal manipulation, labeling them as Acausal Type 4 solely based on their resistance would be inaccurate. The situation is nuanced; it may be Acausal Type 4, but

 

[Rolgoat]

Toji's reasoning is due to him being an anomaly within JJK, he had escaped Cursed Energy, an energy which seemingly is able to tie people together across history as it does for the SPV, Tengen, and Six Eyes putting them within a shared destiny. This is why Tengen brings up how on top of HR, he escaped Cursed Energy.
Being outside the control of Cursed Energy is what makes him type 4 basically, while everyone else is within it.

"You need to provide evidence for the absoluteness of shared fate. It could be a known norm simply because it has been happening for centuries, or it might be a conventional expectation. People might now perceive it as 'fate.' To establish that this 'fate' is absolute and that there is something in the verse's fate beyond Tengen's perception, you must demonstrate that Toji rejected it.

 

[Rolgoat]

yeah as finicky as fate is in JJK I gotta agree with Duedate here, by being outside the flow of these things by default toji does qualify for Acausality type 4, but I mean it is literally the white bread of Acausality that just provides some resistances here and there.

Read my replies to duedate.

 

[Da3ggman]

Bro just put all of your replies in one message; if you don't, it clogs up the thread.

 

[Rolgoat]

Toji has an existence that operates freely from a chain of events that the world of JJK is bound by, even its strongest entities' actions can't change those predetermined events and they just correct themselves. It's most certainly a chain of cause and effect that can't be escaped at play.

Toji wasn't aware of this or even trying to break the chains of destiny. Because he intervened at all, his actions caused a new course to history that was impossible before. And Tengen atributes this to him being an abnormality that escaped cursed energy, fate and the destinies that connect them all. We can't expect the work to state verbatim that Acausality type 4 is happening.

I think the definition that is being used here would qualify a character for type 5 Acausality instead (generally unbound to causality), which Toji indeed doesn't have. He operates abnormal to the scope of all Cursed Energy causality. One could argue that this wouldn't grant him many resistances depending on what other system of causality he's operating under, but Toji certainly doesn't operate under the regular flow of things. The plot would never have happened if he did.

"There is not enough evidence to claim the absolute fate of the JJK chain; it's merely Tengen's statement. Even if reliable, it could have been used merely as a metaphor. After all, Tengen is not omniscient or know anything about the fate."