MinatoSparkle
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This is the current justification for Alive Minato's speed: "At least Sub-Relativistic with Relativistic Reactions (Minato's Reaction Speed allowed him to gain the upper hand against the Fourth Raikage. Outsped Obito Uchiha in the past, despite the Uchiha possessing a better Space-Time Ninjutsu. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before)"
Minato should not be At least Sub-Relativistic, he should be straight up Relativistic. He reached the battlefield significantly faster than the other Hokage with shunshin. And Tobirama's shadow clone (which is slower than him) used shunshin to reach Juubito's TSO before it exploded.
This is commonly misinterpreted as Tobirama using FTG, and I can see why. But this is plain impossible. Unless Tobirama knows Amenetojikara and we just never knew about it, Tobirama had no way to teleport to the TSO as he was not participating in the battle prior to this moment and had no markings in the area (start of 641 if you want to confirm it). The closest marking is the one on Juubito and him and the group was standing a fair distance away from Juubito.
You might say he had a marking on Minato if you haven't seen the battle in a while, but if you go further in the chapter you'll see Tobirama only placed a marker on Minato after this.
So even assuming his clone did teleport to Juubito, he still had to run 10 or more meters. And since Tobirama used shunshin, this proves another relevant point to the thread. Minato did not get the TSO with his arm's movement speed despite having greater movement speed than Tobirama in Base and being in BM and having the advantage of being right next to the TSO. This is because of Minato's daze, the mental nerf he received from finding out Obito was the masked man. It is described in the databook.
"Cheering up Minato from his stupor." This, along with the panels showing Minato's inability to properly concentrate on the battle, show the only reason Tobirama is supposedly faster than BM Minato.
And so on, I could keep going for a while, but you get the point.
Further evidence of Minato being faster than Tobirama is here
"Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed." ALL ninja being the keyword here. In contrast, the statement about Tobirama being the fastest only refers to being the fastest at the time. This implies someone surpassed him in speed, and who else would it be if not Minato?
On that note, Tobirama and Juubito's speed justifications should be revised. The current Tobirama justification is as follows. "Relativistic (Stated to be the fastest shinobi of his day, which would include Hashirama Senju and Madara Uchiha. Reacted to and teleported out of the way of a point-blank attack from Sage Mode Madara. He was able to put several paper bombs on Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito while he was being attacked. His shadow clone was able to reach a Truth-Seeking Ball at point-blank range from Bijū Mode Minato faster than Minato himself could, and it could teleport away faster than Bijū Mode Naruto and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke could react to)"
The part about being faster than BM Minato should straight up be removed and replaced with "His shadow clone was able to reach a Truth-Seeking Ball before it exploded." And also the Naruto there was not BM Naruto. It was Mastered KCM Naruto. He didn't have the dark markings and vertical pupils indicative of BM, only the collar. So the entire revised justification would be "Relativistic (Stated to be the fastest shinobi of his day, which would include Hashirama Senju and Madara Uchiha. Reacted to and teleported out of the way of a point-blank attack from Sage Mode Madara. He was able to put several paper bombs on Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito while he was being attacked. His shadow clone was able to reach a Truth-Seeking Ball before it exploded, and it could teleport away faster than Mastered Kyūbi Chakra Mode Naruto and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke could react to."
For Juubito. "At least Relativistic (Faster than before. Able to cut off Bijū Mode Minato's arm and attached a Truth-Seeking Ball to him before he could teleport)" should be changed to "At least Relativistic (Faster than before. Able to keep up with Bijū Sage Mode Naruto and Curse Seal Enhanced Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke at the same time)"
As for Minato, his shunshin feat should be added as well as the databook statement, plus him being compared to Naruto right after he blitzed 5 bijuudamas implies some relativity to BM Naruto in speed, which seems to be contradictory if Minato>Tobirama>Madara~BM Naruto~Minato. But the only justification needed is that the gaps are not that large so even being 2 higher on the scaling chain doesn't mean he's far superior in speed. Does Tobirama dodging SM Madara as an Edo show him being far superior to Madara? Maybe, but it's not like Tobirama is AS FAST as SM Madara, he just reacted to one attack he was expecting. Evidence that Tobirama is not far superior to BM Naruto is that he couldn't hit SM Madara while BM Naruto can.
It could be argued that Madara in his Susanoo is slower than him just dodging regularly, but he's shown the ability to move freely and quickly with the Susanoo before, and there was a larger distance from Naruto and Madara then there is between Madara and Naruto, even ratio wise compared to the Susanoo's size.
And the fact that KCM Naruto was also compared to Minato shows that being inferior doesn't mean you can't be compared to him.
One more rather vague but still impressive feat is Tobirama stating Minato is quick at striking after he placed his markers.
This could be interpeted as meaning Minato can strike faster than him, or that he was just impressed in general. Either way, it wouldn't make sense for Tobirama to claim that if Minato's striking speed was glaringly inferior to his. At the absolute very least, Minato striking speed should be half as fast as Tobirama, who is above 0.28c in arm movement, which would make Minato Relativistic.
As well, a SM justification should be added. The fact that he could swing his arm halfway before getting it cut off should be mentioned.
Considering Juubidara scales massively above 0.28c combat speed and needed no time to react given that he could see the FTG marker right in front of him, it's likely that the time during which Minato was swinging his arm was almost entirely spent on Madara swinging his staff. AKA SM Minato's striking speed is half as fast as Madara and SM Minato>>>0.14c.
With all that in mind, the justification I would change it to for his Alive Key is "Relativistic (Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed. Minato's Reaction Speed allowed him to gain the upper hand against the Fourth Raikage. Kakashi Hatake compared Bijū Mode Naruto to Minato. Outsped Obito Uchiha in the past, despite the Uchiha possessing a better Space-Time Ninjutsu. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State)"
For Minato's Edo base, the adjustments I would make are, "Relativistic (Reached the Fourth Shinobi World War battlefield before the other Hokage. Tobirama Senju said that Minato is quick at striking. He reacted to and teleported Madara's Truth-Seeking Balls at the exact moment they touched him), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before. Managed to swing his arm halfway towards Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara before getting his arm cut off)"
Also wanna add some details to his BM justification, and potentailly upgrade him to At least Relativistic scaling him to BSM Naruto. He's definitely not comparable to BM Naruto, as he's already faster than him in Base. Even if that's not accepted, Base Minato>>>Base Naruto is already accepted, so naturally with the same amp, Minato would still be faster. He also hit Obito with FTG before anyone else with Shunshin. While it's a bit unquantifiable, he did manage to make a shadow clone and have them teleport to and attack Obito before Tobirama could get anywhere close to Madara which is a good feat given Tobirama can shunshin at a speed that seems like instant teleportation. He also teleported Naruto and Sasuke before Mindless Juubito could kill them. And I know this is used as an antifeat, but Minato teleported away from Juubito at the exact moment he cut his arm, given that there's still speed lines on Juubito's hand when Minato disappeared.
Another similar supposed antifeat is here, but he did react to the explosion starting and reached out his hand, meaning the explosion didn't blitz him.
Finally, he attacked at the same speed as BSM Naruto against Juubito and reacted to his chakra arms in sync with him. Reacting to his chakra arms should also make him low end relative to Juubito.
"At least Relativistic (Comparable to Bijū Sage Mode Naruto and blocked Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito's chakra arms. Made a shadow clone that reached Obito before Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju could reach Madara. Despite being in a stupor, Minato teleported Naruto and Sasuke away before Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito could hit them. At the exact moment Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito hit Minato, he teleported away. He reacted to Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito's Truth-Seeking Ball and reached out his arm before it exploded)"
All together it's: Relativistic (Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed. Minato's Reaction Speed allowed him to gain the upper hand against the Fourth Raikage. Kakashi Hatake compared Bijū Mode Naruto to Minato. Outsped Obito Uchiha in the past, despite the Uchiha possessing a better Space-Time Ninjutsu. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State) | Relativistic (Reached the Fourth Shinobi World War battlefield before the other Hokage. Tobirama Senju said that Minato is quick at striking. He reacted to and teleported Madara's Truth-Seeking Balls at the exact moment they touched him), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before. Managed to swing his arm halfway towards One Rinnegan Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara before getting his arm cut off) | At least Relativistic (Comparable to Bijū Sage Mode Naruto and blocked Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito's chakra arms. Made a shadow clone that reached Obito before Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju could reach Madara. Despite being in a stupor, Minato teleported Naruto and Sasuke away before Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito could hit them. At the exact moment Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito hit Minato, he teleported away. He reacted to Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito's Truth-Seeking Ball and reached out his arm before it exploded)
As for Hiruzen, his prime form should scale to Tobirama, as when he was an edo, they reached the battlefield at the same time, and he partially reacted to Juubito and Hiruzen reached Naruto before Tobirama. Hiruzen doesn't have an edo key, so he should get one where he has this justification. "Relativistic (Reached the Fourth Shinobi World War battlefield at the same time as Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju. Evaded a Truth-Seeking Ball from Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito well enough that only his shoulder was pierced. Saved Naruto from the Shinju Tree before Tobirama)
TLDR Minato should be Relativistic, Tobirama and Juubito's speed justification shouldn't include outspeeding BM Minato, SM and BM Minato require some further justifications, and Hiruzen should be scaled to Tobirama.
Minato should not be At least Sub-Relativistic, he should be straight up Relativistic. He reached the battlefield significantly faster than the other Hokage with shunshin. And Tobirama's shadow clone (which is slower than him) used shunshin to reach Juubito's TSO before it exploded.
This is commonly misinterpreted as Tobirama using FTG, and I can see why. But this is plain impossible. Unless Tobirama knows Amenetojikara and we just never knew about it, Tobirama had no way to teleport to the TSO as he was not participating in the battle prior to this moment and had no markings in the area (start of 641 if you want to confirm it). The closest marking is the one on Juubito and him and the group was standing a fair distance away from Juubito.
You might say he had a marking on Minato if you haven't seen the battle in a while, but if you go further in the chapter you'll see Tobirama only placed a marker on Minato after this.
So even assuming his clone did teleport to Juubito, he still had to run 10 or more meters. And since Tobirama used shunshin, this proves another relevant point to the thread. Minato did not get the TSO with his arm's movement speed despite having greater movement speed than Tobirama in Base and being in BM and having the advantage of being right next to the TSO. This is because of Minato's daze, the mental nerf he received from finding out Obito was the masked man. It is described in the databook.
"Cheering up Minato from his stupor." This, along with the panels showing Minato's inability to properly concentrate on the battle, show the only reason Tobirama is supposedly faster than BM Minato.
And so on, I could keep going for a while, but you get the point.
Further evidence of Minato being faster than Tobirama is here
"Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed." ALL ninja being the keyword here. In contrast, the statement about Tobirama being the fastest only refers to being the fastest at the time. This implies someone surpassed him in speed, and who else would it be if not Minato?
On that note, Tobirama and Juubito's speed justifications should be revised. The current Tobirama justification is as follows. "Relativistic (Stated to be the fastest shinobi of his day, which would include Hashirama Senju and Madara Uchiha. Reacted to and teleported out of the way of a point-blank attack from Sage Mode Madara. He was able to put several paper bombs on Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito while he was being attacked. His shadow clone was able to reach a Truth-Seeking Ball at point-blank range from Bijū Mode Minato faster than Minato himself could, and it could teleport away faster than Bijū Mode Naruto and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke could react to)"
The part about being faster than BM Minato should straight up be removed and replaced with "His shadow clone was able to reach a Truth-Seeking Ball before it exploded." And also the Naruto there was not BM Naruto. It was Mastered KCM Naruto. He didn't have the dark markings and vertical pupils indicative of BM, only the collar. So the entire revised justification would be "Relativistic (Stated to be the fastest shinobi of his day, which would include Hashirama Senju and Madara Uchiha. Reacted to and teleported out of the way of a point-blank attack from Sage Mode Madara. He was able to put several paper bombs on Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito while he was being attacked. His shadow clone was able to reach a Truth-Seeking Ball before it exploded, and it could teleport away faster than Mastered Kyūbi Chakra Mode Naruto and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke could react to."
For Juubito. "At least Relativistic (Faster than before. Able to cut off Bijū Mode Minato's arm and attached a Truth-Seeking Ball to him before he could teleport)" should be changed to "At least Relativistic (Faster than before. Able to keep up with Bijū Sage Mode Naruto and Curse Seal Enhanced Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke at the same time)"
As for Minato, his shunshin feat should be added as well as the databook statement, plus him being compared to Naruto right after he blitzed 5 bijuudamas implies some relativity to BM Naruto in speed, which seems to be contradictory if Minato>Tobirama>Madara~BM Naruto~Minato. But the only justification needed is that the gaps are not that large so even being 2 higher on the scaling chain doesn't mean he's far superior in speed. Does Tobirama dodging SM Madara as an Edo show him being far superior to Madara? Maybe, but it's not like Tobirama is AS FAST as SM Madara, he just reacted to one attack he was expecting. Evidence that Tobirama is not far superior to BM Naruto is that he couldn't hit SM Madara while BM Naruto can.
It could be argued that Madara in his Susanoo is slower than him just dodging regularly, but he's shown the ability to move freely and quickly with the Susanoo before, and there was a larger distance from Naruto and Madara then there is between Madara and Naruto, even ratio wise compared to the Susanoo's size.
And the fact that KCM Naruto was also compared to Minato shows that being inferior doesn't mean you can't be compared to him.
One more rather vague but still impressive feat is Tobirama stating Minato is quick at striking after he placed his markers.
This could be interpeted as meaning Minato can strike faster than him, or that he was just impressed in general. Either way, it wouldn't make sense for Tobirama to claim that if Minato's striking speed was glaringly inferior to his. At the absolute very least, Minato striking speed should be half as fast as Tobirama, who is above 0.28c in arm movement, which would make Minato Relativistic.
As well, a SM justification should be added. The fact that he could swing his arm halfway before getting it cut off should be mentioned.
Considering Juubidara scales massively above 0.28c combat speed and needed no time to react given that he could see the FTG marker right in front of him, it's likely that the time during which Minato was swinging his arm was almost entirely spent on Madara swinging his staff. AKA SM Minato's striking speed is half as fast as Madara and SM Minato>>>0.14c.
With all that in mind, the justification I would change it to for his Alive Key is "Relativistic (Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed. Minato's Reaction Speed allowed him to gain the upper hand against the Fourth Raikage. Kakashi Hatake compared Bijū Mode Naruto to Minato. Outsped Obito Uchiha in the past, despite the Uchiha possessing a better Space-Time Ninjutsu. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State)"
For Minato's Edo base, the adjustments I would make are, "Relativistic (Reached the Fourth Shinobi World War battlefield before the other Hokage. Tobirama Senju said that Minato is quick at striking. He reacted to and teleported Madara's Truth-Seeking Balls at the exact moment they touched him), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before. Managed to swing his arm halfway towards Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara before getting his arm cut off)"
Also wanna add some details to his BM justification, and potentailly upgrade him to At least Relativistic scaling him to BSM Naruto. He's definitely not comparable to BM Naruto, as he's already faster than him in Base. Even if that's not accepted, Base Minato>>>Base Naruto is already accepted, so naturally with the same amp, Minato would still be faster. He also hit Obito with FTG before anyone else with Shunshin. While it's a bit unquantifiable, he did manage to make a shadow clone and have them teleport to and attack Obito before Tobirama could get anywhere close to Madara which is a good feat given Tobirama can shunshin at a speed that seems like instant teleportation. He also teleported Naruto and Sasuke before Mindless Juubito could kill them. And I know this is used as an antifeat, but Minato teleported away from Juubito at the exact moment he cut his arm, given that there's still speed lines on Juubito's hand when Minato disappeared.
Another similar supposed antifeat is here, but he did react to the explosion starting and reached out his hand, meaning the explosion didn't blitz him.
Finally, he attacked at the same speed as BSM Naruto against Juubito and reacted to his chakra arms in sync with him. Reacting to his chakra arms should also make him low end relative to Juubito.
"At least Relativistic (Comparable to Bijū Sage Mode Naruto and blocked Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito's chakra arms. Made a shadow clone that reached Obito before Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju could reach Madara. Despite being in a stupor, Minato teleported Naruto and Sasuke away before Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito could hit them. At the exact moment Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito hit Minato, he teleported away. He reacted to Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito's Truth-Seeking Ball and reached out his arm before it exploded)"
All together it's: Relativistic (Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed. Minato's Reaction Speed allowed him to gain the upper hand against the Fourth Raikage. Kakashi Hatake compared Bijū Mode Naruto to Minato. Outsped Obito Uchiha in the past, despite the Uchiha possessing a better Space-Time Ninjutsu. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before. Should be faster than his Edo Tensei State) | Relativistic (Reached the Fourth Shinobi World War battlefield before the other Hokage. Tobirama Senju said that Minato is quick at striking. He reacted to and teleported Madara's Truth-Seeking Balls at the exact moment they touched him), higher with Sage Mode (Faster than before. Managed to swing his arm halfway towards One Rinnegan Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara before getting his arm cut off) | At least Relativistic (Comparable to Bijū Sage Mode Naruto and blocked Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito's chakra arms. Made a shadow clone that reached Obito before Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju could reach Madara. Despite being in a stupor, Minato teleported Naruto and Sasuke away before Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito could hit them. At the exact moment Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito hit Minato, he teleported away. He reacted to Controlled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito's Truth-Seeking Ball and reached out his arm before it exploded)
As for Hiruzen, his prime form should scale to Tobirama, as when he was an edo, they reached the battlefield at the same time, and he partially reacted to Juubito and Hiruzen reached Naruto before Tobirama. Hiruzen doesn't have an edo key, so he should get one where he has this justification. "Relativistic (Reached the Fourth Shinobi World War battlefield at the same time as Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju. Evaded a Truth-Seeking Ball from Uncontrolled Jūbi Jinchūriki Obito well enough that only his shoulder was pierced. Saved Naruto from the Shinju Tree before Tobirama)
TLDR Minato should be Relativistic, Tobirama and Juubito's speed justification shouldn't include outspeeding BM Minato, SM and BM Minato require some further justifications, and Hiruzen should be scaled to Tobirama.
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