Toaru Upgrades

[LordAizenSama]

So the latest upgrade comes as a result of this

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blogontTalkDT/Mjölnir_vaporizes_1/3rd_of_Radiosonde_Castle

It was discussed a bit in the Toaru discussion thread but may aswell make a official upgrade thread (https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/744270 , down towards the bottom of the thread)

So the issue is who we scale it to now.

The ones who are guaranteed scaling are Black and white wings Accelerator, Black wings Kakine Teitoku, Black and white wings Rensa, (Angels/Awakened espers have power superior to saints like Kanzaki and acqua) Kanzaki Kaori with Yuisen, (Capable of killing archangels, fought Mjolnir Knight Leader (Oneshot Kanzaki bare handed , Acqua of The Back (Far stronger than Kanzaki, fought knight leader while weakened), Carissa (stronger than all the saints mentioned by a mile) , Gabriel (To Aru) (Stronger than Carissa using curtana second shards) Brunhild Eiktobel (Fought Kanzaki with yuisen), Maiden of Versailles (comparable to Carissa using shards of curtana second and fought Gabriel) and Mjölnir who performed it

Lazyhunter wasn't sure if it scales to Silvia and Thor (To Aru) so here we are.

I wrote this reply in the ToAru thread detailing why they should scale


>If Knight leader and Carissa were wary of Silvia, she must be at least comparable to Kanzaki with Yuisen. Knight leader stopped Yuisen barehanded and would have no reason to be wary of Silvia if she could be defeated so easily. Not to mention Carissa herself showed some concern and shes > Knight leader

So for Silvia her reasoning would be (Carissa and Knight leader were wary of her power, even though the latter defeated Kanzaki Kaori using Yuisen casually)

Thor: was stated to possess comparable power to Silvia, connected to Mjolnir who performed this feat

Also perhaps worth noting is that Brunhild was preparing herself to fight Silvia and waited for her to be offguard to attack and kill Othinus

So thoughts?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not familiar enough with the franchise to have an opinion about it. Sorry.

However, you can ask DontTalkDT, LazyHunter, and any other people familiar with To Aru in the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here if you wish.

 

[LazyHunter]

Elizard would also scale if this goes through. I leave Silvia and Thor's issue for everyone else to decide. It seems like they should due to Silvia's status in Britain and how Carissa talked about her.

"It looks like there are no Royal Maids or armed aides among them. We might have had some trouble if a Saint like Silvia had been here."

But of course, this upgrade makes Kanzaki standing up to some of these characters (Both versions of Carissa and full-power Acqua) with just Yuisen pretty ridiculous. Though again, it could be Kamachi not realizing how strong he has made his characters again, just like he likely thinks the fastest characters in the verse are just supersonic.

I also want to take this chance to bring up a minor issue I have with Accelerator's page. His Matter Manipulation lists "reflecting light", which I don't think it's really an example of matter manipulation. The others examples are fine.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Oops. Forgot Elizard.

We can remove the light reflection from his profile while we are at it. Just added it because light=photons.

 

[LazyHunter]

Would this upgrade Index too? Given her Dragon's Breath caused minor damage to IB while Accelerator's wings didn't. I'm not 100% sure, some of the stuff in earlier volumes it's not consistent with later ones, for example Aureolus Dummy's Limen Magna dart actually slices Touma's hand open before IB activates and negates its transmutation and breaks it.

Also, Aleister should get Clairvoyance (He's able to use the tarot to predict the future, that's how he predicted the death of Lilith before he even married his wife and how his teacher likely knew Aleister was going to kill him in their last meeting) and an ability for his attacks to get pass automatic defenses for how he sneak attacked Fiamma to slice off his arm without the Holy Right being able to protect him.

His reactions shouldn't be scaled to the Holy Right, though, nobody scales to that. At most he would scale to Ollerus and Othinus' reaction feat like Fiamma does. His Regenerationn (Being able to recover from being shot in the head multiple times but dying if his heart is destroyed) sounds more like Low-Mid.

Accelerator's wings might have some level of Regenerationn negation given how Beetle 05 struggled to recover when Rensa's black wings crushed his body, but this could also be PIS, so I'm not sure what to do with that given it's not outright said or focused on and it's not a property that has come up anywhere else IIRC.

 

[Malox1696]

Would this upgrade Index too? Given her Dragon's Breath caused minor damage to IB while Accelerator's wings didn't. I'm not 100% sure, some of the stuff in earlier volumes it's not consistent with later ones, for example Aureolus Dummy's Limen Magna dart actually slices Touma's hand open before IB activates and negates its transmutation and breaks it.

i think that the arrow head was not fully magical just imbuded with magic , the blade was in a natural state as he can't turn things back from gold with IB (unlike a magic item)

 

[LazyHunter]

It's magical, that's why it breaks apart when it touches IB and why Aureolus Dummy can just produce new ones at will after Touma breaks them.

 

[Antvasima]

@LazyHunter

Can you summarise the changes that you think are appropriate to apply?

 

[LazyHunter]

The characters LordAizen mentioned in the OP + Elizard should scale to the calc if that's accepted, though I'd prefer to get more input on Thor, Silvia and Index's cases.

Accelerator's page needs to be opened for a minor edit on the matter manipulation's justification to remove the "reflected light" bit.

There's also my suggested changes for Aleister Crowley: a couple minor abilities and a revision of his Regenerationn and reactions, though these haven't received any input so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Your sense of judgement is usually excellent, but you can ask DontTalkDT to comment here if you wish.

 

[LordAizenSama]

This will definitely upgrade the dura of Index's walking church so that would in turn increase her ap.

As for getting past automatic defenses the attack probably was too fast for the HR to block. Fiamma didn't detect it either.

I put lightspeed for Aleisters reactions because reacting in 10 nanoseconds is already very close to the speed of light (3 metres is enough to react to lightspeed) and he seemed superior to fiamma in that sense

Im not sure about the regen negation for his wings being PIS. IIRC that was the only time they have ever attacked someone with regen so I don't know what it contradicts

Clairvoyance via tarot is fine for Aleister

And actually now that I think about it. The speed of the characters in this series needs a bit of work. People blitzing people who have MHS reactions/combat speed should straight up have massively hypersonic speed alround. Like Knight leader blitzing Kanzaki.

 

[LazyHunter]

Given how lightspeed is apparently a big deal in-universe by NT19, I doubt Aleister's attack was faster than a laser.

The problem with the negation is that no attention is brought to it whatsoever, which is weird IMO. Rensa crushes Beetle 05 with a blow, he manages to recover after Rensa attacks Touma five times or so to save him and get crushed into the ground again. A short conversation later we see that he's still half-crushed in the ground trying to recover his human form while Fremea resolves herself to save the day. I kind of fear it might be Kamachi nerfing Beetle 05 or forgetting how powerful Kakine's Regenerationn is, who at his lowest could reform his body from a puddle in a few seconds. He considers bullets and regular bombs to be a threat to Saints, so consistency sometimes isn't his best suit.

The problem with making that change in speed is that Knight Leader blitzed and defeated Kanzaki partially because she didn't expect him to be that strong and had the element of surprise. We later see that a weakened Acqua can keep up with him, and Kanzaki can keep up with a full power Acqua and with Carissa in terms of speed. So changing that means changing basically everyone, I think.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Its really the only explanation (besides it being a new ability) and when you say lightspeed was considered a big deal what line are you referring to? The windowless building crashing into earth?? I don't think it has real impact with this event though.

Well it is possible Beetle 05 is trying to regen as little as possible out of fear of Kakine returning if he overuses his powers? Or something. Im neutral on the whole thing but we do know for sure Beetlep5 surpresses his abilities a bit

Yes she didn't expect him to be that strong but he disappeared from her view entirely (a decent distance it seemed aswell, so her field of view is pretty good), it wasnt because of a lapse in concentration or blinking and hes gone or something like that.

Carissa was pretty casual in her fight against Acqua knight leader and Kanzaki right? And she still has MHS combat speed and reactions so she should still do ok in CQC especially when it wasnt 1v1

Acqua was already holding back against Kanzaki so she doesnt scale in that regard either, especially since her cqc is still mhs

 

[LazyHunter]

NT19 tells us weird physics start to apply when you start to approach the speed of light. I wouldn't believe any attack to be Lightspeed or FTL without outright evidence because of this.

Could be, but it would not make much sense. He's supposed to be as powerful as the original Kakine, the only difference being he voluntarily nerfs himself on how many copies of himself he makes at the same time so as to not spread his ego too much. I don't see how his Regenerationn speed would factor into that, but then again that's the only times we've seen Beetle 05 regenerate.

Maybe Saints and comparable fighters should be all MHS, considering the High Hypersonic calc was from Salome, someone who should be much weaker than them. I recently found this statement in Kanzaki's Norse Mythology SS that directly says the speed of lightning is not an issue, and the reason Kanzaki got hit by it was because she was expecting Brunhild to throw Gungnir.

Kanzaki's breathing changed to a method used to focus one's mind to the limit. Should she put some distance between them before the spear was thrown or should she approach and finish things before Brunhild had a chance to throw the spear? As that decision approached Kanzaki, Brunhild spoke calmly.

"Yes. Gungnir is a weapon that can completely control all kinds of weather."

A flash of light filled the entire plant with the color white.

It was due to a lightning strike.

The storm of light rained down from 3500 meters above and mercilessly pierced through Kanzaki's body vertically.

It was not the normal color of lightning.

The light was a pure, holy white.

"Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!?"

She had not been able to construct any kind of defensive magic.

It had not been an issue of time. The completely unexpected attack had come from a mental blind spot.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Im actually happy a series cares enough for physics that lightspeed (and relativistic speeds to) messes up physics. We can change Aleisters reaction time to 10 nanoseconds, the difference is so minute it barely matters.

So what do we call the ability? Precognition negation or something. Though Im not sure if that fits.

I guess we will have to see more from Beetle05 to get a more definitive answer. I don't think hes done anything since the Rensa fight. Regenerationn negation on accels page until otherwise contradicted should be alright.

I don't mind saints being MHS alround. They really should be. To be honest the calc for salome dodging lightning is also lowballed (the distance for her and misaka talking was like, 10 metres assumed by the calc, which is pretty unrealistic or perhaps even impossible when you try talk to someone in a normal conversation like that)

The only thing im doubtful of is kanzaki herself. Maybe a likely MHS, as she is pretty far below the likes of acqua carissa or knight leader.

That lightning quote sounds good but reacting to something from 3500 metres above is actually pretty underwhelming. Of course it is not stated when she would have actually dodged it on the way down but you get what I mean

 

[Antvasima]

You can tell me here when you have reached a conclusion.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Hmm looks like lazy pretty much handled this thread.nothing to be said on my part other than agreeing with this based on what lazy hunter said

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I also trust LazyHunter's judgement.

 

[LordAizenSama]

So do you also agree with the speed being upgraded @Yomi? Thats about the only thing needing more opinions

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Hmm well the way i see it If Knight leader can blitz Kanzaki who has mhs combat speed he and those who scale should be mhs, if not all the saints imo

 

[ZERO7772]

I agree with the AP and speed upgrades + Accel regen negation

 

[LazyHunter]

So speed upgrade to straight out MHS for those superior to Kanzaki, with "likely MHS" for Kanzaki and those on her level like Brunhild should be fine.

Does anyone have something else to mention before making the changes?

 

[LordAizenSama]

Seems settled.

@Ant we will need Accelerator's profile unlocked. I think its the only only profile needing it

 

[LazyHunter]

Also Aleister Crowley

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[LazyHunter]

Carissa's page also needs to be unlocked, I'd forgotten about Curtana's upgrade.

 

[Schnee_One]

Not like my opinion matters, but the upgrade seems solid.

This is gonna increase the contenders for strongest High 6Cs tho.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unlock Carissa for you.

 

[LazyHunter]

Carissa, Accelerator and Aleister Crowley can be relocked.

Unless I'm missing something eveyrthing else is also done.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should we close this thread then?

 

[LazyHunter]

Yes, thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.