Toaru revisions, Omnibus edition

[GunTish]

Correct, but the disagreement is on whether passive probability manipulation is coming from Endless Possibilities (Native to all Magic Gods) or Gungnir itself (Specific to Othinus).

Doesn't the quote I sent basically proves that it's natives to Magic Gods? Ollerus says that the 50/50 dilemma happens to Magic Gods in general, not just Othinus. The 50/50 is a result of their endless possibilities.

 

[Zensum]

Doesn't the quote I sent basically proves that it's natives to Magic Gods? Ollerus says that the 50/50 dilemma happens to Magic Gods in general, not just Othinus. The 50/50 is a result of their endless possibilities.

Let me rephrase, the counter arg says Endless Possibilities isn't passive probability manipulation and believes Gungnir was created because it has a probability ability that passively places Othinus at 100%, therefore she's the only Magic God with passive probability manipulation.

 

[Axscell]

Let me rephrase, the counter arg says Endless Possibilities isn't passive probability manipulation and believes Gungnir was created because it has a probability ability that passively places Othinus at 100%, therefore she's the only Magic God with passive probability manipulation.

Sigyn's ability to give out "suggestions" to others with 100% guaranteed success was hinted at as giving her the potential to become a Magic God, were she only able to use the ability on herself, there by guaranteeing her too 100% success.

"How about you give me a suggestion then. A suggestion to find the lost Sigyn."

"Ooh, so there's such an idea."

"…You really don't know how to use it. You're an existence that's able to give a suggestion 100% accurately. If you could use your power on yourself, maybe you could even reach the realm of being a Magic God."

"Whatever. If my suggestion can make anyone succeed, it'll be my success anyway."

"Hurry up and suggest."

"Okay."

Doesn't this lend further credence to the idea that the ability to passively manipulate probability to guarantee 100% success is an inherent, if not necessary, ability of Magic Gods?

 

[Zensum]

Doesn't this lend further credence to the idea that the ability to passively manipulate probability to guarantee 100% success is an inherent, if not necessary, ability of Magic Gods?

Kinda, this is more saying if she could use her ability on herself she could give herself an accurate suggestion to become a Magic God, making that a task she would 100% succeed in doing.

 

[XDragnoir]

Bruh, c'mon, this still has not been settled?

What is the proof Gungnir would have that power to begin with? It's never implied to be something unique to Gungnir and Othinus nor is it stated to be something granted by a Gungnir-spell or anything, it's something she gets with Gungnir not something she gets FROM Gungnir, there's a difference.

It would also be against the narrative for the MGs that are beyond what Othinus can do to not have their main ability (Endless Possibilities) under control

And that is stupid because we know they can use Phase Manipulation which is only possible when they have 100%.

 

[Churronzon]

Aseka asked a relevant question in the discussion thread; what type of CM is Aleister's Archetype Controller?

 

[Churronzon]

This is going nowhere huh. I'll add fuel to the fire by looking at other feats and mentioning that full power High Priest with supposedly passive probability manipulation failed to kill Aleister. Should be addressed imo.
Let's just flip a coin in deciding whether to give them the ability. If Magic Gods have probability manipulation they'll win the coinflip.

---

I also found a problem in one of my own proposals. I was planning on still giving Othinus planet dura since she crushed the Invisible Thing, but it was weaker than the one that appeared in WWIII vs Fiamma so I believe it doesn't concretely scale to planet level to begin with.

 

[XDragnoir]

I also found a problem in one of my own proposals. I was planning on still giving Othinus planet dura since she crushed the Invisible Thing, but it was weaker than the one that appeared in WWIII vs Fiamma so I believe it doesn't concretely scale to planet level to begin with.

I disagree with this, two reasons:

First, IT scaled considerably above the 5B attack as it suffered absolutely no damage from holding it and the attack was already slightly above baseline, as it is an Earth pulverization feat, but idk exactly as I haven't seen a calc for it in years (someone should do it and link it in Fiamma's profile).

2nd, IT varies in strength, yeah, we know that already but we don't know the mechanics behind it or how much does its strength raise or drop from each apparition.

The most logical thing to do in this situation would be to downscale Othinus and the Baggage IT to baseline 5B if Fiamma's feat is slightly above baseline or L5B+ if the feat is right in the baseline of 5B.

 

[Churronzon]

alright

 

[Zensum]

This is going nowhere huh. I'll add fuel to the fire by looking at other feats and mentioning that full power High Priest with supposedly passive probability manipulation failed to kill Aleister. Should be addressed imo.

Few things:
a) It's stated a couple times the Blasting Rod combination has merit against both 100% Othinus and True Gremlin who mentally have absolute confidence in their power.
b) Magic Gods weren't serious. High Priest particularly, his surface that didn't care much and is wholly unaware of his inner consciousness that is constantly doing a 180 and had to be told by others he got mad against Aleister. Like how he's not mentally aware he's unenlightened or when he insults someone thinking it's appreciation.
c) Aleister still lost the clash in the end tbf.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

The most logical thing to do in this situation would be to downscale Othinus and the Baggage IT to baseline 5B if Fiamma's feat is slightly above baseline or L5B+ if the feat is right in the baseline of 5B.

About this... From my own reading of NT4; wasn't it flat-out stated that since Touma lost his right arm, Fiamma temporarily "regained" his "One Above God" power and fought Othinus with it since he since had Touma's WWIII right hand inside of him?

“World War III was started by a man who held the power to save the world. He had the power to save the world, but could not save the world without a right hand to output that power into the world. That was why he used various methods to obtain that special right hand. That’s right. You cut off the right hand that only one of can exist in the world.”

A great metallic noise came from above.

It was from one of the pillars used to support the chain-link fence surrounding the ring. A man wearing red had appeared atop it at some point. His right arm had been severed at the shoulder. Growing from there was an unnatural distortion of space that looked as if sugar water had been mixed in.

“Fiamma of the Right with his power to save the world. And me, a man who can wield the power of a Magic God even if it is impure. …Now then. What will you do in response to these changing possibilities? Fifty percent, Othinus. I believe you have even odds of just forcing your way through this.”

“Hmph,” snorted Othinus.

While holding Marian Slingeneyer in one hand, she turned her back on the young man. She was going along with her opponent’s suggestion.

But after taking a few steps, Othinus suddenly stopped. She carelessly tossed Marian to the side.

“No, I guess I’ll kill you,” she said.

With a great roar, something beyond Kumokawa Maria’s understanding blew about.

Natural Selector, the one who determines natural selection. On that stage where countless contestants, Kiharas, Gremlin, Kamijou Touma, and Marian Slingeneyer had all fought, a battle began that had the same theme but was on a completely different level.

This was an actual fight, and we even have a possibly time period for how long this fight lasted.

Ollerus assumed he was asking for healing or pain relief despite knowing it was useless. Ollerus could not blame him since his right hand had been severed and healed over the course of twenty or so minutes.

Twenty or so minutes. We don't have any reason to assume Touma was leaking blood like a water fountain during his... "arm removals" with Izzard or Fiamma, so blood lost might not be a factor in limiting the "time" so to speak... that, and anime people just have gallons of blood, xD.

Thus, at the very least, we can assume The One Above God!Fiamma and Ollerus fought Othinus for around 20 min. Pair that up with Othinus crushing the Invisible Thing, and we can make the arguement that Othinus rightfully deserves to be 5-B in dura (and striking strength since she crushed that invisible fu... trucker, and crushing probably belongs to striking strength side of things)

... Also, pretty sure Fiamma's feat is only baseline 5-B - and if Othinus and Baggage City!IT gets downgraded to Low 5-B+, it is likely everybody else gets downgraded to Low 5-B+ as well considering the people outside of the Fiamma-Ollerus-IT-Othinus scaling chain scales to Aiwass crushing IT in NT18 (and Baggage City is directly mentioned a bit after said feat and Aiwass saying it got a little stronger0

 

[Churronzon]

a) It's stated a couple times the Blasting Rod combination has merit against both 100% Othinus and True Gremlin who mentally have absolute confidence in their power.

To be clear, are you implying Spiritual Tripping+Blasting Rod provides a counter to not only stats, but also probability manipulation?

b) Magic Gods weren't serious. High Priest particularly, his surface that didn't care much and is wholly unaware of his inner consciousness that is constantly doing a 180 and had to be told by others he got mad against Aleister. Like how he's not mentally aware he's unenlightened or when he insults someone thinking it's appreciation.

Not sure why his mental state should play a factor if probability manip is passive.
Like you said, Magic Gods stated High Priest was pissed and trying to kill Aleister. As you know, Aleister took this hit and was only burned and not atomized.
But yes, the other Magic Gods weren't trying.

c) Aleister still lost the clash in the end tbf.

I suppose he did even though he tanked an infinite strength attack from a raging mindless beast and succeeded in his plan of getting their parameters with direct contact.
Othinus' probability manipulation influenced her goals and not just her fights.

I still don't care what happens with this ability. Just pick something already 😭

 

[Zensum]

To be clear, are you implying Spiritual Tripping+Blasting Rod provides a counter to not only stats, but also probability manipulation?

Narration says it's the only human technique that could plausibly counter 100% Othinus :shurgs:

If he could not do it as a human, he would draw out the destructive power from the Magic Gods themselves.

Drawing out the power of a god and defeating a god while remaining human was the way a summoner thought.

Instead of becoming a god, he would control them and rule them.

Nothing could have been more arrogant, but that just showed how much hatred he had in his heart.

However, that methodology actually showed some promise of working against full-power Othinus. How to mentally cut down a Magic God who had absolute confidence in their power was still a major question, but this still had far better odds than using any kind of human power against them.

Not sure why his mental state should play a factor if probability manip is passive.
Like you said, Magic Gods stated High Priest was pissed and trying to kill Aleister. As you know, Aleister took this hit and was only burned and not atomized.
But yes, the other Magic Gods weren't trying.

If you read their convo in NT10 before the first attack is thrown he's not particularly mad at all, but later we learn he angrily attacked first and that there's a contradiction between what high priest says and claims on the surface and what he actually does that he himself is unaware of. (For example High Priest wanting Touma to be the scorer not knowing himself that he's going to kill Touma immediately if he gives in to his request.)
We see Aleister take out Blasting Rod first thing so he survives through that.

I suppose he did even though he tanked an infinite strength attack from a raging mindless beast and succeeded in his plan of getting their parameters with direct contact.
Othinus' probability manipulation influenced her goals and not just her fights.

I mean he lost the fight, regardless of the param stuff which he didn't reveal till NT12. And we learn Blasting Rod alone is enough to just keep him alive for a bit against Magic Gods who aren't serious.
Correct.

Thread needs mods to assess.

 

[XDragnoir]

About this... From my own reading of NT4; wasn't it flat-out stated that since Touma lost his right arm, Fiamma temporarily "regained" his "One Above God" power and fought Othinus with it since he since had Touma's WWIII right hand inside of him?

This was an actual fight, and we even have a possibly time period for how long this fight lasted.

Twenty or so minutes. We don't have any reason to assume Touma was leaking blood like a water fountain during his... "arm removals" with Izzard or Fiamma, so blood lost might not be a factor in limiting the "time" so to speak... that, and anime people just have gallons of blood, xD.

Thus, at the very least, we can assume The One Above God!Fiamma and Ollerus fought Othinus for around 20 min. Pair that up with Othinus crushing the Invisible Thing, and we can make the arguement that Othinus rightfully deserves to be 5-B in dura (and striking strength since she crushed that invisible fu... trucker, and crushing probably belongs to striking strength side of things)

... Also, pretty sure Fiamma's feat is only baseline 5-B - and if Othinus and Baggage City!IT gets downgraded to Low 5-B+, it is likely everybody else gets downgraded to Low 5-B+ as well considering the people outside of the Fiamma-Ollerus-IT-Othinus scaling chain scales to Aiwass crushing IT in NT18 (and Baggage City is directly mentioned a bit after said feat and Aiwass saying it got a little stronger0

...

You're right with everything, but we can't downscale them to L5B without an actual calc to properly base the downscaling on. So you'll have to do it, you're the master of Toaru calcs after all.

Also, I am pretty sure that detail about Fiamma's IB should be given more attention than we actually do, at least I had never really noticed it, thanks.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

...

You're right with everything, but we can't downscale them to L5B without an actual calc to properly base the downscaling on. So you'll have to do it, you're the master of Toaru calcs after all.

xD.

Eh, we already have a direct baseline 5-B statement and confirmation that NT4!IT was weaker than OT22!IT, and we know that NT18!IT was at least stronger than NT4!IT, so wouldn't that be enough to warrant a downscale to L5B?

Also, can't. Quite literally have no on-screen feat that reaches L5B range 'sides assuming weird stuff - i.e, interpreting the scene in where Brunhild could harm (and possibly even kill) Othinus in NT10 and the fact that Gungnir represents the symbol of the power that Othinus possessed and the fact that Brunhild's Gungnir is apparently equal to a portion of Gungnir's spear (and the fact that it sent out "magical pressure" that her body "tanked") as a possible means to downscale to Othinus or smth (and ye, pastebin for info is here)...

Oh, and maybe the fact Gunha could endure getting hit by Ollerus's Hliðskjálf at least thrice, with the first two attempts filled with the intent of defeating Gunha with overwhelming power, could help.

And the only thing we have around-slash-above 5-B is Kimi being able to make black hole that can swallow earth and up to the solar system, Gabriel's Astro Hand stuff, Fiamma possibly scale above that via being the One Above God, Othinus scaling to One Above God Fiamma and being able to rain down stars as weapons in NT9, Aiwass lighting up the "universe" inside of the Windowless Building, Accel's SS shake feat, and Anna being utterly unimpressed by it as scaling for the top tiers. (The Big Bang Bomb too, but it is weird, so i'mma ignore it)

Also, I am pretty sure that detail about Fiamma's IB should be given more attention than we actually do, at least I had never really noticed it, thanks.

Also, here is a bit more info about it.

Even then, Fiamma had the Imagine Breaker arm inside his body after having disassembled it. However, he could tell the shining power was gradually fading from the flesh and blood he had acquired. It was such a unique power that two of it could not exist within the same world. The scene made Fiamma think that such a rule must exist. And that rule might also have been that the true power could only reside within the right arm if it was attached to the boy known as Kamijou Touma.
He could not allow himself to lose it.
He did not miss the power of Imagine Breaker in and of itself. In fact, he had been planning to eventually eliminate the functionality of the arm he had taken into this body. It did nothing but interfere with the power within Fiamma’s body. However, if the right arm itself continued to rapidly deteriorate, it may continue on to the point of losing its ability to receive Fiamma’s power. That would be a problem for his goal.

So... actual direct confirmation that Touma's right arm didn't disappear from Fiamma, only the power of Imagine Breaker and that it can "help" with Fiamma's One Above God power... which honestly makes me wonder if Fiamma was just randomly in his The One Above God state for a good chunk of NT22 before Touma got back his hand from Misaki (and if he was, why the frick didn't he show up to help other than Kamachi forgetting about him)

 

[XDragnoir]

so wouldn't that be enough to warrant a downscale to L5B?

IMO it's always better to have the calc.

Also, I get that you "cut" all that part, but were you talking about? 5B comes from Fiamma's feat of turning the planet to dust, downscaling would then come from this feat after being calculated. Why would we need L5B feats?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

IMO it's always better to have the calc.

Also, I get that you "cut" all that part, but were you talking about? 5B comes from Fiamma's feat of turning the planet to dust, downscaling would then come from this feat after being calculated. Why would we need L5B feats?

Wait, wait, Noir. Are you telling me to calc out Fiamma's feat of turning the earth into dust? Cuz that isn't needed in the slightest since Fiamma would still need to overcome the Earth's GBE to turn the earth into dust in the first place and that value is literally the baseline value for 5-B (and we already have Earth GBE here). Also, also, we are kinda dragging away from Zon's CRT, atm.

 

[Churronzon]

just an anti-necro bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

Totally didn't forget to comment here or anything

---

Coronzon​

SPOILER: LIFE FORCE DESTRUCTION

• Assuming that Life Force isn't just a fancy way of saying "This kills people" sure, but the quote itself I find vague about this subject. Do you have supporting evidence that it's really life force being destroyed?

SPOILER: ESP

• While this may theoretically count as ESP, it's so vague that it doesn't warrant a rating in my view

SPOILER: CLAIRVOYANCE

• Alright I guess, but this needs more context for the rating. Just having Aleister look into the sky and yell at someone is no indication that Coronzon is the one doing it without further context

SPOILER: VIBRATION MANIPULATION

• Alright

SPOILER: SELF SUSTENANCE TYPE 1 AND SPACEFLIGHT

• Alright

SPOILER: SELF-SUSTENANCE TYPE 2 (FOR QLIPHAH AS WELL)

• This would only count for a possible rating, as the narrator doesn't give a firm answer

SPOILER: DIMENSIONAL TRAVEL AND INTERDIMENSIONAL RANGE

• Alright

SPOILER: ENHANCED ELEMENTAL MANIPULATION (FIRE, WATER, AIR, EARTH)

• It wouldn't be Enhanced Elemental Manipulation, just better Elemental Manipulation

SPOILER: LIMITED ABSORPTION

• Alright

SPOILER: LIMITED CREATION

• Alright

SPOILER: LIMITED POWER NULLIFICATION

• Alright

SPOILER: POSSIBLE ARCHETYPE MANIPULATION

• Sure I guess

SPOILER: SIN MANIPULATION (OR ANALYTICAL PREDICTION)

• Unholy Manipulation looks fine

SPOILER: FLAMING SWORD "HIGHER" ATTACK SPEED

• It can be higher I guess, but it being scaled to infinite is questionable

SPOILER: SMALL INTELLIGENCE ADDITION

• I don't see why knowing about a location would be a notable intelligent feat without more context

Normal human weakness for secondary vessels and Resistance to Cosmic Radiation and Sealing for primary vessel​

SPOILER

• Alright

SPOILER: LIMITED RESISTANCE TO SEALING

• Alright

---

Gabriel​

SPOILER: AGE

• Alright

SPOILER: NON-PHYSICAL INTERACTION

• Alright

SPOILER: SELF-SUSTENANCE TYPES 1 AND 2

• There's no evidence here for either rating

SPOILER: DANMAKU

• Alright

---

Aiwass​

SPOILER: TYPE 8 IMMORTALITY

• Alright

SPOILER: LIFEFORCE CREATION AND NPI

• Alright

SPOILER: SPEED RATINGS

• Alright

SPOILER: TELEPATHY

• The quote you listed has them literally talk into a cellphone. You need to provide more context as to why its not a real phone for this to count

SPOILER: FLIGHT THROUGH THE MANIPULATION OF AN UNKNOWN ENERGY

• Alright

SPOILER: INCORPOREALITY

• Alright

---

Qliphah Puzzle 545​

SPOILER: IMMORTALITY (TYPES 1, 2, AND 3)

• Alright

SPOILER: RESISTANCE TO EMPATHIC MANIPULATION

• Alright

SPOILER: NON-PHYSICAL INTERACTION

• Alright

---

Immunity to Life force destruction for Mina Mathers and Samuel Mathers (grimoire ver.):​

They don't possess a life force that can be erased by Coronzon.
SPOILER: MINA'S IMMUNITY

• See my first point

SPOILER: SAMUEL'S IMMUNITY

• Unless it's the artificial part (which seems weird since there's other artifical life forms with life energy), I don't see why this would qualify without more to it

---

Magic Gods​

Reformatting their P&A section by renaming reality warping to phase manipulation and listing what hax it accomplishes.

I guess these changes are fine

Changing the justification for Othinus' likely planet durability in her first key.
She didn't tank her own arrow and instead just regenerated the damage so the justification should instead be that her strength is comparable to her attack potency that crushed Touma's Invisible Thing.

• Why is crushing an unknown thing warranting her scaling to her arrow?

Ability additions
SPOILER: SELF-SUSTENANCE TYPES 1, 2, AND 3

• Alright

SPOILER: RESISTANCE TO COSMIC RADIATION

• Alright

SPOILER: RESURRECTION (OR NECROMANCY) THROUGH PHASE MANIPULATION

• Seems more like Necromancy

SPOILER: DANMAKU FOR OTHINUS

• Alright

---

Aleister​

SPOILER: EXORCISM

• Alright

SPOILER: MFTL+ ATTACK SPEED

• Alright with that one attack

SPOILER: DIMENSIONAL TRAVEL AND INTERDIMENSIONAL RANGE

• Alright

SPOILER: POSSIBLE WEAPON MASTERY

• Due to how terrible our weapon standards are, these would count for a possibly rating I guess

---

Misaka Mikoto​

SPOILER: DURABILITY NEGATION

• This would be limited durability manipulation afaik. That or its not durability negation at all and that's just how electricity works

(Level 6 Shift key)​

• Transformation (In the parentheses of her accelerated development P&A)
• Self-Destruction
• Renaming Energy Beams to AIM Constructs as that's what the attacks being used are.

Alright

Giving her Black Sphere a tiering of "higher"
Her 5.3 black sphere is stronger than her 5.1 lightning, both in terms of implied feats(as it was going to be used in a new attempt to destroy the Windowless Building when her previous lightning couldn't) and due to the logic of Accelerated development. It's also quite literally otherworldly.

• Alright

---

Sogiita Gunha​

• Alright with all the changes

---

Fiamma of the Right​

SPOILER: AURA

• Alright

SPOILER: SENSE MANIPULATION

• Alright, but it's mid sense manipulation

SPOILER: DECONSTRUCTION [THROUGH FAIRY STAKE]

• Alright

SPOILER: INFORMATION ANALYSIS

• Alright

SPOILER: STAR CREATION

• Alright

---

Accelerator​

SPOILER: BLACK/WHITE WINGS RANGE

• Alright

SPOILER: SURFACE SCALING

• Alright, though this seems more like a bi-product of another ability rather than a dedicated ability in of itself

SPOILER: POST-AIWASS AND POST-QLIPHAH WEAKNESSES

• Alright

---

Index (John's Pen Mode key)​

SPOILER: INFORMATION ANALYSIS

• Alright

---

Kakine​

(Post-revival key)
SPOILER: RESISTANCE TO PAIN

• This is just Inorganic Physiology

---

Kihara Enshuu​

SPOILER: SUPERSONIC REACTIONS UPGRADE

• Alright

---

Touma's Dragons​

Large size; Type 1 I believe.

• Alright

SPOILER: TYPE 2 IMMORTALITY

• Alright

---

Doppelganger​

SPOILER: IMMUNITY TO SOUL MANIPULATION

• I'd like a possibly rating more so than a definitive one

SPOILER: ENHANCED SENSES

• Alright

(Giant form key)
SPOILER: LARGE SIZE (TYPE 1)

• Alright

SPOILER: ADDITIONAL ENHANCED SENSES

• Alright

---

Kihara Noukan​

SPOILER: ENHANCED SENSES OF A GOLDEN RETRIEVER, TYPE 0 SMALL SIZE, AND NATURAL WEAPONRY (TEETH AND CLAWS)

• Alright

SPOILER: CITY BLOCK LEVEL PHYSICALS TIERING

• Alright, though this does seem questionable

SPOILER: PLANET LEVEL DOG WITH A.A.A.

• Alright

Edit: High 1-C Dog is now planet level with a note stating that it requires a link with Aleister to transmit their power/magic.

---

Kihara Yuiitsu​

SPOILER: HIGH-MID REGENERATION WITH SAMPLE SHOGGOTH

• Alright

SPOILER: GIVING YUIITSU'S PROFILE HER A.A.A. UNDER A NEW KEY

• Alright

SPOILER: GIVING HER A.A.A FLIGHT WITH THE USE OF TECHNICAL DEVICES

• Alright

SPOILER: REMOVING THE LIKELY CONDITIONAL FROM YUIITSU'S A.A.A SPEED (JUST FOR YUIITSU'S PROFILE)

• Alright

SPOILER: DURABILITY NEGATION, MARTIAL ARTS AND VIBRATION MANIPULATION

• Alright

---

Resistance to mind manipulation for those who have angelic mental structures​

• Alright, but, it should be noted that they're immune to Tooaru mind manipulation. Which works through neuron control rather than just mental control doesn't it?

---

If you ask me to read this much Raildex again I'm banning you.

 

[XDragnoir]

Assuming that Life Force isn't just a fancy way of saying "This kills people" sure, but the quote itself I find vague about this subject. Do you have supporting evidence that it's really life force being destroyed?

It isn't, reread the quote for Samuel's immunity that is already in the OP, you will see both the direction comparison it makes with Mina (as both are Grimoires) and that it's talking about the Life Force Energy that normal humans use to refine into Mana/Magic Power.

Alright, but, it should be noted that they're immune to Tooaru mind manipulation. Which works through neuron control rather than just mental control doesn't it?

Yes and no? Any mind hax that is based on the biological side should be resisted, this isn't limited to Toaru.

Limited to biological mind hax, yes.

Limited to Toaru, no.

 

[XDragnoir]

Just noticed I missed two important parts

Unless it's the artificial part (which seems weird since there's other artifical life forms with life energy), I don't see why this would qualify without more to it

What exactly do you mean here? It makes it clear that they don't have life force to refine and have to rely on Ley Lines instead and "other artificial life forms" here is kinda... A limited way to put it.

First, what determines having life force or not is the presence of a soul inside of a body, which they don't have cause they're Grimoires/Tarot Cards/whatever, not any kind of life being that has a soul.

Second, each Artficial Life Form is different, you're unnecessarily putting them all in the same category there, Qliphah is specifically a ghost/soul artifical demon so she having life force (which I am not sure if she has or if she used Ley Lines as well, btw) would make sense and does in no way relate to Mina and Samuel, there are yet other several types of artificial life forms in Toaru that could or not have Life Force (Doppelganger, Frillsand, Hyouka, etc).

Why is crushing an unknown thing warranting her scaling to her arrow?

Here you misunderstood it. She wouldn't scale to her arrow anymore, that's the point, the proposal is that she would scale to Invisible Thing which scales to Fiamma's attack because she crushed Invisible Thing with her hand (and Dura > physical AP).

 

[Qawsedf234]

It isn't, reread the quote for Samuel's immunity that is already in the OP, you will see both the direction comparison it makes with Mina (as both are Grimoires) and that it's talking about the Life Force Energy that normal humans use to refine into Mana/Magic Power.

What's the quote?

Yes and no? Any mind hax that is based on the biological side should be resisted, this isn't limited to Toaru.

Which is what I mean. It's resistant to biological mind manipulation. I was clarfying that.

It makes it clear that they don't have life force to refine and have to rely on Ley Lines instead and "other artificial life forms" here is kinda... A limited way to put it.

Then provide that quote next time.

Here you misunderstood it. She wouldn't scale to her arrow anymore, that's the point, the proposal is that she would scale to Invisible Thing which scales to Fiamma's attack because she crushed Invisible Thing with her hand (and Dura > physical AP).

The scaling was explained poorly then, because I got none of that from the quoted section.

 

[GunTish]

SPOILER: SMALL INTELLIGENCE ADDITION

• I don't see why knowing about a location would be a notable intelligent feat without more context

The Abyss gives knowledge to whoever can cross it. Coronzon is the one protecting that knowledge.

Great Demon Coronzon was a demon of the Sephiroth rather than the Qliphoth.

She hid in the territory known as the Abyss where the hidden Sephirah named Da'at was also found. From there, she managed who ascended and descended the tree. She was the manager whose role was to prevent foolish humans from reaching the tree's knowledge too easily.

- NT22 Chapter 4 Part 11

"Thus, I can become the manager seated in the unmarked eleventh sphere!! My name is Qliphah Puzzle 545, my number is the true eleven, and its meaning is 'the stepping stone of wickedness that supports good deeds'! The path of seventy-eight cards is found here. I provide power to my contractual master, the transcendent lifeform who controls the entirety of the still nameless third three. I offer the path of survival to that being! I offer him the wisdom found beyond the Abyss!!!!!"

- NT22 Chapter 4 Part 11

"The blood of three doves summons a demon. The target is the angel who wanders the tenth Aethyr of ZAX and is hidden in the Sephiroth's Abyss along with Da'at. She is the transcendent being necessary to cross the Abyss and acquire the knowledge beyond."

- NT22 Chapter 4 Part 14

"Try it then. Kee hee hee. I am the ruler of the Abyss and the guardian of the knowledge beyond.

- NT22 Chapter 4 Part 14

The magician Aleister invites in Coronzon and gains the knowledge found by crossing the Sephiroth's Abyss.

- NT22 Ending

 

[Churronzon]

• Assuming that Life Force isn't just a fancy way of saying "This kills people" sure, but the quote itself I find vague about this subject. Do you have supporting evidence that it's really life force being destroyed?

I'll address this later as I gather more scans.

In the meantime:

• It can be higher I guess, but it being scaled to infinite is questionable

Yeah, I'm not going for infinite.

• I don't see why knowing about a location would be a notable intelligent feat without more context

The advantage of astral projection and accessing the Abyss is granting you special knowledge you can't get elsewhere.

Accelerator has something similar on his profile when the Clonoth Tree and wisdom found in the Abyss is installed in him, letting him nullify Nephthys' magic/regen.

• The quote you listed has them literally talk into a cellphone. You need to provide more context as to why its not a real phone for this to count

I don't know if this is a biproduct of this site glitching out and not letting all the quotes be expanded without refreshing it constantly. Doing that musta been tiresome as hell, apologies.

It is a real phone. Aiwass doesn't actually need it though, just like Aiwass doesn't need to walk on its legs when it has wings, but just enjoys it.

• This would be limited durability manipulation afaik. That or its not durability negation at all and that's just how electricity works

Alright, I'm not too knowledgeable on it.

• Why is crushing an unknown thing warranting her scaling to her arrow?

My b, I didn't give enough context. She's not scaling to her arrow; that's the opposite of what I want. She's scaling to herself for crushing the planet level Invisible Thing listed on Touma's profile.
Basically, it's the same justification she has for her current AP.

SPOILER: CITY BLOCK LEVEL PHYSICALS TIERING

• Alright, though this does seem questionable

It is questionable as hell, and the current scaling is definitely being changed. They'll be around wall level(?) I believe. Idk, DT's fixin it.

• I'd like a possibly rating more so than a definitive one

Fine with me, although I forgot to mention in the OP that DT was going for a "likely" conditional.

• Alright, but, it should be noted that they're immune to Tooaru mind manipulation. Which works through neuron control rather than just mental control doesn't it?

Forgot to edit in DT's suggestion of adding the word "unconventional" mind manip resistance. Fine with w/e conclusion we come to here

If you ask me to read this much Raildex again I'm banning you.

Fate worse than death ong.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The advantage of astral projection and accessing the Abyss is granting you special knowledge you can't get elsewhere.

Alright then

It is a real phone. Aiwass doesn't actually need it though, just like Aiwass doesn't need to walk on his legs when it has wings, but just enjoys it.

Worth a possibly rating then

Basically, it's the same justification she has for her current AP.

Alright

 

[XDragnoir]

Then provide that quote next time.

The quote is already in the OP and I pointed where in my first quote, but here it is:

They were tarot cards.

Simply put, it was the same as the black cat witch named Mina Mathers. She had been
both a powerful simulator and the Thoth Tarot, but then Aiwass had set her free by
remaking her as a grimoire to virtually construct a body for her. Qliphah Puzzle 545 was
another example. Coronzon had power equal to or greater than Aiwass, so she had
successfully created an autonomous artificial angel based on the Qliphoth.

Unlike humans, such beings could not refine magic power using their own life force, but
they accomplished something similar by absorbing power from the ley lines running
through the earth.

 

[Zensum]

Magic Gods​

Reformatting their P&A section by renaming reality warping to phase manipulation and listing what hax it accomplishes.

I guess these changes are fine

Toaru revisions, Omnibus edition

Correct, but the disagreement is on whether passive probability manipulation is coming from Endless Possibilities (Native to all Magic Gods) or Gungnir itself (Specific to Othinus). Doesn't the quote I sent basically proves that it's natives to Magic Gods? Ollerus says that the 50/50 dilemma...

vsbattles.com

Were you fine with this matter? You touched upon it briefly, but wanted to verify as we need a mod input.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Were you fine with this matter? You touched upon it briefly, but wanted to verify as we need a mod input.

Anything I had a problem I brought up. I think the changes in the section are fine.

 

[Churronzon]

• Assuming that Life Force isn't just a fancy way of saying "This kills people" sure, but the quote itself I find vague about this subject. Do you have supporting evidence that it's really life force being destroyed?

Upon backreading, I think Dragnoir already posted the arguments/quote I was gonna use actually.
Grimoires don't have life forces that can be refined into magic power. (This is another quote in the OP that gets cut off if you don't refresh the page and expand the quote.)

I guess I could only provide quotes stating how magic power is manifested by refining life force.

Alright I guess, but this needs more context for the rating. Just having Aleister look into the sky and yell at someone is no indication that Coronzon is the one doing it without further context

It is stated that Coronzon's the one spying if the quote is expanded and the site doesn't glitch out.

(Spoiler) Lola Stuart is Coronzon

I'll start replacing the scans in the OP with imgur links since they're much easier to read but it'll take a while.

 

[XDragnoir]

Anything I had a problem I brought up. I think the changes in the section are fine.

This thread kinda died, have you changed your stance on the life force destruction/immunity topic now?

 

[XDragnoir]

Side note, in the profile that has to be worded as Life Force/Soul immunity, just like how we do for Touma's Corpse Flame Dragon

Edit: or instead we can just give Mina and Samuel Inorganic Physiology Type 2 as that's the best way to sum up what they are. Qliphah being in a similar spot but should get type 1 instead of 2.